Speaking Of Life 5021 │ Stop Doubting and Believe
Welcome to this week’s episode, a special rerun from our Speaking of Life archive. We hope you find its timeless message as meaningful today as it was when it was first shared.
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Program Transcript
Speaking Of Life 5021 │ Stop Doubting and Believe
Michelle Fleming
Have you ever heard someone being referred to as a “Doubting Thomas”? If you have, then you were probably aware that this was not meant as a compliment. It is typically used to describe someone who is a skeptic. Someone that is known to utter, “I’ll believe it when I see it!”
Shortly after Jesus’ crucifixion, the disciples locked themselves away in fear that the Jewish officials might come for them next. But Jesus appeared to them in their locked room. To prove that he was real, he showed them his nail-scarred hands and feet.
One of the disciples was missing, however, and here is where Doubting Thomas comes in. John shares the story:
Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So, the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
John 20:24-29
We can relate with Thomas, can’t we? As excited as the other disciples were that they had seen Jesus, Thomas was skeptical. For whatever reason, he was not present when Jesus showed up and he got quite specific about what it would take for him to believe.
A week later Jesus reappears, and this time Thomas is there. Jesus tells Thomas to go ahead and touch him. Then he tells Thomas to stop doubting and believe. With the exclamation, “My Lord and My God!”, Thomas becomes the first to acknowledge who Jesus really was and is.
Like Thomas, we all have those moments of doubt. Moments where we wonder if God can hear us, or if he sees what we are going through. Does he really care about me? We want to believe, but doubt enters in.
In another place in Scripture, a distraught father of an afflicted child blurts out, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” (Mark 9:24). This is beautiful because it describes us so well. We believe, and we ask Jesus to help us where we doubt. He can be trusted to answer that prayer. Because he is the one who has perfect belief, and believes on our behalf.
Thomas didn’t stay a doubter. Tradition says that Thomas was the first missionary to India. In 52 A.D. he sailed from Palestine and arrived on the Kerala coast. He was martyred twenty years later, but not before founding seven flourishing churches. In India today, there are nearly 70 million believers.
Doubt did not have the last word in Thomas’ life, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it will not have the last word with us either.
I’m Michelle Fleming, Speaking of Life.
Program Transcript
Speaking Of Life 5021 │ Stop Doubting and Believe
Michelle Fleming
Have you ever heard someone being referred to as a “Doubting Thomas”? If you have, then you were probably aware that this was not meant as a compliment. It is typically used to describe someone who is a skeptic. Someone that is known to utter, “I’ll believe it when I see it!”
Shortly after Jesus’ crucifixion, the disciples locked themselves away in fear that the Jewish officials might come for them next. But Jesus appeared to them in their locked room. To prove that he was real, he showed them his nail-scarred hands and feet.
One of the disciples was missing, however, and here is where Doubting Thomas comes in. John shares the story:
Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So, the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
John 20:24-29
We can relate with Thomas, can’t we? As excited as the other disciples were that they had seen Jesus, Thomas was skeptical. For whatever reason, he was not present when Jesus showed up and he got quite specific about what it would take for him to believe.
A week later Jesus reappears, and this time Thomas is there. Jesus tells Thomas to go ahead and touch him. Then he tells Thomas to stop doubting and believe. With the exclamation, “My Lord and My God!”, Thomas becomes the first to acknowledge who Jesus really was and is.
Like Thomas, we all have those moments of doubt. Moments where we wonder if God can hear us, or if he sees what we are going through. Does he really care about me? We want to believe, but doubt enters in.
In another place in Scripture, a distraught father of an afflicted child blurts out, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” (Mark 9:24). This is beautiful because it describes us so well. We believe, and we ask Jesus to help us where we doubt. He can be trusted to answer that prayer. Because he is the one who has perfect belief, and believes on our behalf.
Thomas didn’t stay a doubter. Tradition says that Thomas was the first missionary to India. In 52 A.D. he sailed from Palestine and arrived on the Kerala coast. He was martyred twenty years later, but not before founding seven flourishing churches. In India today, there are nearly 70 million believers.
Doubt did not have the last word in Thomas’ life, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it will not have the last word with us either.
I’m Michelle Fleming, Speaking of Life.
Psalm 16:1–11 • Acts 2:14a, 22–32 • 1 Peter 1:3–9 • John 20:19–31
This week’s theme is Peace comes to us. In our psalm, the psalmist displays confident trust in God’s promise of life after death. In Acts, Peter confirms and declares that Jesus was not abandoned to the grave but was raised to new life. In 1 Peter, we read Peter again affirming that we have been given new life because of Christ’s resurrection. And in our pericope in John, Jesus appears to the disciples after his resurrection, which leads to John’s promise that whoever believes in Christ will possess new life.
Reminder: This introductory paragraph is intended to sum up the four RCL selections for the week to assist the preacher prepare the sermon. It is not intended to be included in the sermon.
Peace Comes to Us
John 20:19–31 NIV
[Read or ask someone to read the passage.]
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. John 20:19–31 NIV
Picture this: You are home, and the doors are locked. It’s late at night after the biggest disappointment of your life. Maybe you’ve just lost your job, received difficult news, or let someone down. You’ve locked the world out; you’re hiding. The shades are drawn. Your fear, shame, and uncertainty fill the room with a heaviness you can feel in the air. You replay every “what if,” every regret, and every anxious thought.
This is where we find Jesus’ disciples — locked away, feeling defeated and uncertain about what comes next.
And here is the good news right at the start: it’s precisely behind these closed doors that the risen Jesus shows up. He does not wait for us to clean up our mess before entering. He steps through every barrier — physical, emotional, and spiritual — to meet us right in the despair of our fear and confusion.
So, let’s imagine we’re all in that room together with the disciples, and see what happens when the Prince of Peace walks in.
And as we do, I want you to hold onto this one point. If you forget everything else, remember this: Peace comes to us.
We will start by looking at verses 19 and 20.
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
On the evening of that first Easter, with the doors locked “for fear,” Jesus comes and stands among his disciples. The first words out of his mouth are “Peace be with you.”
Imagine how the disciples might have braced themselves. Almost all of them had abandoned Jesus; they fled when he was arrested. John is identified as the only male disciple present at the cross. Perhaps they expected Jesus to express disapproval or to list what must be done to repair their relationship.
Instead, Jesus offers a blessing: “Peace be with you.” He simply comes into their midst and declares peace. And they were overjoyed.
Jesus does not start with their performance. He starts with his presence.
This matters because it tells us something about how Jesus meets us. It is not our moral perfection or self-sufficiency that brings Christ near. The disciples were hiding, grieving, and probably deeply ashamed, feeling they had failed their Lord. Then Jesus enters in their great need.
He shows them his hands and side — wounds that speak of suffering and victory all at once — and he repeats the greeting: “Peace be with you!”
Again, Jesus does not start with what they had done. He starts with who he is and what he has done.
And when he shows them his scars, he’s not just proving it’s really him. He’s preaching without words.
Those wounds say:
“I carried the nails.”
“I carried the spear.”
“I carried the curse.”
“I carried the full weight of sin and death.”
And here’s the part we need to say plainly: Jesus has done for us, in us, what we cannot do for ourselves. That’s what we mean when we say Jesus’ work is vicarious — that Jesus acted in our place, on our behalf, as our representative. He took what we deserve. He gave what we could never earn.
The disciples did not go searching and find peace. They did not achieve peace. Peace came to them. Jesus is our peace; Jesus is God with us.
Sometimes the peace we imagine is just “nothing bad is happening.” But Jesus’ peace is not denial. It’s not pretending while our heart is breaking.
The peace that Jesus gives is not something that denies our pain, but peace by his presence in that pain. His peace is also not the absence of trouble, but the promise that he will never leave us nor forsake us. It is the peace of not being alone.
Jesus brings peace that comes through real suffering. And because Jesus is human and endured the cross, he understands suffering. His is a peace that has journeyed through crucifixion and has broken the power of death. A peace anchored in love and power that cannot be shaken.
The word for peace in John 20 means peace as in wholeness, harmony, safety, and prosperity. It refers to the restoration of a right relationship with God. Peace like a relationship that was broken and is being repaired. Like a life that was scattered and is being gathered back together.
Jesus does not say, “Peace be with you” like a polite greeting. He is our peace and he gives himself for us.
Peace comes to us.
Jesus meets us in the very places where we feel least worthy to welcome him. And yet, the doors we try to lock to keep out our fears cannot keep out Christ. No emotional wall, no mountain of guilt, no fortress of regret is too strong for the one who walks through locked doors.
If your heart is weary, your soul anxious, your mind plagued by questions, remember: Peace comes to you.
So, let’s see what Jesus does next in verses 21–23.
Sending Witnesses, Not Experts
Again, Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit…”
After greeting his disciples with peace, Jesus immediately says, “As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” The mission is not cancelled by their doubt or hiding; it’s reborn in his grace.
And notice the order again. Peace first. Sending second.
Jesus does not say, “Get yourselves together and then I’ll send you.” He does not say, “Prove you’re loyal and then you’ll have a role.” He shares his peace with us, and then he gives us purpose.
And he roots it in God himself: “As the Father has sent me…”
That is not a small detail. It tells us mission is not the Church’s idea. It is God’s heart.
Here we witness the triune pattern clearly:
The Father is the Sender — he sends in love.
The Son is the Sent One — he comes near in flesh, suffers for us, rises for us.
The Holy Spirit is God in us — giving life, courage, and power we do not have on our own.
This is not three separate gods. This is the one God who is Father, Son, and Spirit — one God acting for our salvation. The Father sends the Son to bring us home. The Son does not come only to show us a path; he becomes our peace by his finished work on the cross. And the Spirit does not merely give us a boost; he gives us the very life of Christ so we can live as people of peace in a fearful world.
Then Jesus breathes on them. That image matters. The line “Receive the Holy Spirit” is not a side note. It is the fuel of the whole mission. It’s as if in that breath, Jesus is saying: “I do not send you in your own strength. I am giving you my Spirit.”
And here is where we need to make Christ’s finished work unmistakable: the disciples are being sent as people who have been rescued.
Jesus sends people out who know what it’s like to be scared, to need forgiveness, to be forgiven. He commissions people who know that they need grace. Jesus sends us as witnesses.
And when Jesus talks about forgiveness here, we need to hear it as good news. The Church has been handed a message: Jesus is the source of forgiveness. He is not only announcing forgiveness — he purchased forgiveness with his blood.
And we are sent to announce what is true because of his finished work: that peace and reconciliation are offered to all.
Mission is sharing what we receive by joining with God in what he is already doing in the world — restoring, redeeming, healing, reconciling — through everyday lives in everyday places.
At work, when you refuse to crush someone and instead offer patience.
At home, when you choose forgiveness instead of cold distance.
In your neighborhood, when you notice pain and step toward it with kindness.
That’s God’s peace spilling out into the world.
Peace comes to us.
But what about doubts — especially the kind that feel like locked doors inside our own minds?
We read in verses 24–29 that Thomas was not there during that first encounter. So, when the other disciples tell him about seeing Jesus, he responds: “Unless I see the nail marks… I will not believe.”
And this is where we get the expression “a doubting Thomas.” But the truth is, most of us would have reacted the same way. Thomas does not ask for anything more than the others received; he just says it out loud.
Maybe that’s you. You’re not trying to be difficult. You’re being honest. “I want to believe. But I cannot make myself believe.”
And what does Jesus do with that?
A week later, the disciples are together again — behind closed doors — and Thomas is included. Jesus comes again, offering the same words: “Peace be with you.”
He meets Thomas’ skepticism with invitation — not scolding but kindness: “Put your finger here; see my hands … Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Here is a Savior who is not threatened by our questions, who makes room for honest inquiry, and who offers himself as the answer. He says, “Thomas, look at me.” Because the wounds tell the story. The scars are the sermon.
Thomas’ response — “My Lord and my God!” — is not just some intellectual “aha” moment; it is the soul’s cry of someone for whom God has just become real. This is not just an idea. This is a Person. The risen Jesus is standing here, alive, and his wounds mean something for me.
That is vicarious grace: Jesus died for us and instead of us. He carried what we cannot carry. He paid what we cannot pay. He took our sin into his own body and buried it in his grave. And in rising, he brings us into his life with the Father, by the Spirit.
Jesus then says, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
This is important for future generations — for you and me. Faith is trusting Jesus’ presence and promise, even when we cannot see his wounds with our eyes.
It’s not your grip on God that saves you. It’s God’s grip on you. You are still included when you have doubts. Often, doubt is faith reaching for something to hold. “I want to believe; help me understand.”
The Father is not disgusted by your weakness.
The Son does not withdraw from you in your questions but comes close with scars.
The Spirit does not abandon you but draws you to the Father’s heart when belief feels hard.
Peace comes to us.
________________________________________
Closed Doors to Open Lives (John 20:30–31)
The Gospel of John tells us this story so that “you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” Jesus is inviting each of us into something real and personal.
“Believing” is not a one-time event, but a lifelong journey marked by encounters with Christ who meets us again and again, even in locked rooms.
And John’s conclusion reminds us: the resurrection is not just a happy ending to an ancient story. It’s the beginning of God’s new world, reaching through time right into our lives.
The “locked doors” are not just details of the disciples’ circumstances; they become a picture of every place in life where fear, shame, and disappointment keep people shut in.
Think of how often we carry burdens — regrets from the past, anxieties about the future, wounds that make it hard to trust or hope again.
The resurrection of Jesus means that none of these closed doors are ultimate. Through the power of his Spirit, Christ is forever entering those places, offering not only his presence but his very life.
This resurrected life that we receive is Christ’s very life given to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit. In Christ’s life we can see his peace overtake our fear. In his life we experience forgiveness for ourselves and the ability to extend it to others.
The resurrected life is about what Christ has already done and now shares with us.
In this story of the locked room, we see a movement:
from hiding to openness, from fear to courage, from isolation to community and purpose.
This life is shaped by Jesus’ peace — a peace the world cannot give and which all the world’s locked doors cannot keep out.
The disciples’ locked room becomes a sanctuary, not by escaping danger, but by the presence of the risen Lord at its center.
And let’s not miss this: those first believers, once paralyzed by fear, become bold ambassadors of Christ’s peace. But why?
Not because they became impressive.
But because Jesus breathed on them.
Because Jesus gave them his Spirit.
Because Jesus made peace through his cross.
Because Jesus rose and stood among them alive.
The closed doors that once imprisoned them now swing open as they’re sent in the Spirit’s power to proclaim forgiveness in Christ. They are living witnesses to the truth that no obstacle is greater than the love of God revealed in Jesus.
That’s mission: carrying God’s peace into the places that still feel locked. Telling others that Peace comes to us.
________________________________________
Today, you may feel like you’re hiding — locked away from hope or joy, weighed down by anxiety or regret. Maybe your faith feels frail, like Thomas’s did.
Hear this: Jesus walks right into those spaces and shares his peace with you.
He meets you with the scars that overcame death and the grave. He meets you with breath — his Spirit — guiding and empowering you. He meets you with words that commission you to be his messenger of grace.
The Father sends the Son.
The Son gives himself for you in his finished work on the cross.
The Spirit gives you Christ’s life and peace from the inside out.
Your doubts do not keep him away. Your failures are no match for resurrection power. The doors you close cannot keep out his love.
So, when Jesus says, “Peace be with you,” he is not giving you a slogan. He is giving you himself.
Peace comes to us!
Catherine Toon—Year A Easter 2
Listen to audio: https://cloud.gci.org/dl/MiscVid/.mp3
Sunday, April 12, 2026 — Second Sunday of Easter
John 20:19-31 NRSVUE
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Program Transcript
Catherine Toon—Year A Easter 2
Anthony: This transition to our next Bible passage of the month, it’s John 20:19–31. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday of Easter, April 12. Catherine, would you read it for us, please?
Catherine: I would be so delighted to do that.
When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”24 But Thomas (who was called the Twin), one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.” 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book. 31 But these are written so that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.
Anthony: Hallelujah. I like the way you intentionally said peace be with you.
Catherine: Yeah.
Anthony: What a glorious declaration from the risen Lord Jesus to his friends. And like humanity sometimes paralyzed with fear. How might that be good news today?
Catherine: Yeah. We as human beings, we suffer with so much fear and we couch it with a lot of different verbiage: anxiety, trauma. Sometimes we couch it as like concern or anxiety, but at the end of the day, it is fear. And fear says it’s not going to be okay. I’m not going to be okay. There will be loss. Ultimately, Hebrews says, it’s fear of death and Jesus overcame death. And as the risen Christ, he can speak unto us, “Peace be with you.”
And there is an empowerment. This is not something that we have to jockey up our faith to apprehend peace. It’s what we get out of our communion with the One who is the Prince of Peace. He causes us to transcend the issues, the torments, the anxieties, the pain, the confusion, the uncertainty, the feeling that we’re not in control.
And honestly, control is an illusion anyway.
Anthony: Amen.
Catherine: Right? And so how can we be peaceful when we don’t have control? Because it was never up to us. It is from our place of our oneness and our union with this God who transcended death, who transcended sin, who transcended everything in order to grab hold of humanity and pull us out of darkness and meet us in the places where subjectively we’re experiencing all of that, we have the objective truth of what was accomplished on the cross, a death, burial, and resurrection.
And then we have the subjective truth of where we meet him, where he meets us in our felt life. And so, the beautiful thing is that there’s always a place to go. And when I’m struggling with something, I have this thing that I’ll walk around and I’ll think of something like that would create anxiety and I literally say out my mouth, this is funny, but it works for me. Nobody panic. Okay, there’s no one there but me, my Father, Son, and Spirit, right? We’re all one. They’re not panicking. So clearly, it’s me, but it helps me apprehend my haywire mind and what’s going on in my emotions so that I can go inside and connect with the one who is my peace. Because one way or the other it is going to be okay.
If somehow Jesus wasn’t this masterful Savior, if somehow, he wasn’t able to redeem all things and hold all things in himself then we might have a justifiable reason to be anxious, to be fearful. And life happens. There are things that will squash you. It is a thing. But in that, he causes us to transcend as he transcended, because we are one with this One who carries peace.
And so, this is peace beyond our comprehension, beyond our ability to understand. Because I don’t know how it’s all going to work out. But one way or the other, it’s going to be okay. One way or the other, it’s going to be good because we’re journeying in this with this God who says, “My peace I give to you.” “Peace be with you.” And we can commune in this place of peace so that somehow, we’re able to navigate whatever comes before us, and then we’re able to give out of that place.
So, when people are freaking out and there is a lot of freak out, yeah, we’re able to minister that which is inside us because we’re carriers of Christ who is our peace. And that also allows us to come up with creative solutions to the problems that comes up because our mind’s not so haywire. Yeah.
Anthony: Yeah, for sure. It’s when he says peace be with you. He can do that with integrity because peace is embodied. Peace has a name. His name is Jesus. And I’m with you. And I love that. I often call this upper room the panic room, and he enters as the unanxious presence in the room. And sometimes I think we think we want God to be just as fired up or as, just as …. No, I want God to be the One who holds the beginning from the end and is unanxious. And as I keep my eyes fixed on him, my anxiety begins to dissipate because he’s, as you said, he’s not freaking out. He’s the Lord. And he actually, even though I wouldn’t say God is in control, because we just have such a fallen understanding of control. He does have everything in his hand.
Catherine: Yeah.
Anthony: And he’s okay. And that’s such good news in an age of outrage. You mentioned Catherine, that there is an objective and subjective perspective. And I think that’s really helpful when reading Scripture, and maybe that will help frame this next question. What does it mean as it says in verse 22 to receive the Holy Spirit?
Catherine: I love that question and you totally set me up, so this is great.
Anthony: Good. Go for it.
Catherine: What a generous host. So objectively, right? We’re all in Christ. Christ is in us. God is omnipresent. So that means where is God not present? Where is his Spirit not present? “If I make my bed in the midst of Sheol, you are there.” And we make a lot of beds in Sheol. Just a thing in our mind and just in our experience, not “our fault,” but just a fallen world.
And so where is this Spirit? And so, if the Spirit is in Sheol and in him, we live and move and have our being, okay? To be, is to be in Christ in the Spirit. So, it’s not like Jesus, the Spirit wasn’t there, and then suddenly, Poof! Spirit’s there. Holy Spirit is that called the modesty of God, does not point to himself, but points to Christ.
Anthony: Yes.
Catherine: But he moves and he’s in us. I remember growing up, I was not raised in a Christian home. I didn’t say those sinner’s prayer until 27. Okay? But I had massive encounters with the Lord that literally saved my sanity in areas that were very … I knew God. Now there was a lot to that story and I don’t want to go haywire with it, but I knew God and he knew me. I knew he loved me. And I loved him. And that was pretty much my theology, which is actually dang good theology right there. And that’s what I needed to survive a traumatic childhood, right?
Anthony: Yeah.
Catherine: And in order this thought that somehow, like I say, the magic prayer and the Spirit just pops inside now. And I didn’t know? Of course, I knew him before, but this is an awakening. Like Mary, when she couldn’t see the embodied Christ before, the incarnate Christ before her until the veil was lifted. We don’t always recognize the Spirit that dwells in us, that inhabits us, that in him, we live and move and have our being until that’s unveiled.
So, we’re talking about an objective reality and objective truth that Holy Spirit is everywhere. And in us. I remember when I was … I got through a period of God I was so angry with God because everything in my life fell apart. And I was just like, “I don’t want to hear from you.” “I don’t want to see you.”
And he was like, “Okay, Catherine, I understand,” but he wouldn’t leave me. And so even when it was giving him the flying fingers. “That’s okay, babe. When you’re ready, you’ll come around.” He’s so patient.
I have a chapter in my book called Annoying Relentless Love, because he would not leave me alone. Okay. This is the God that you can’t shake even if you want to, because we are one with him. But this is our issue as human beings, that we are veiled. We don’t experience. We experience things over time. Things are unveiled to us. And this, any sense of separation is in our minds. We’re alienated in our minds.
And this is God, healing our minds, healing our ability to see what already is, because the breath of God, the ruach of God was with us in the very beginning. When you talk about Genesis and Adam and Eve walked with him in the cool of the day. Adam walked with him in the cool of, he walked in … the ruach is “cool of the day.”
We were walking in the Spirit. You can’t shake him, but we need to wake up to him. In Galatians 1, it talks about, Paul was talking about how he had been set apart from his mother’s womb and called by his grace, “was pleased to reveal his Son in me.”
Did the Holy Spirit suddenly hop in there? No. It was a revelation, a revealing and unveiling of the Spirit already present. And in this thing — so it wasn’t that Jesus was going to give them this theological thing — “so let me just, guys, let me just help you here. Holy Spirit’s already here.” He didn’t do that. He did something practical. I love God for so many reasons, but I love the way he moves practically.
We need sacrament, we need laying on of hands. We need Jesus to breathe on us. We need something so that we can apprehend what is already true and live in it.
Anthony: No, that’s so good. The sacraments, that which physically makes manifest the unseen reality of what is true and that. That the lights would come on in our minds, and it would reach our hearts. This is, oh, we could spend days talking about this, that God has objectively made it so. May we receive what is already ours. In essence, receive what is already ours in Christ. Amen and amen.
Program Transcript
Catherine Toon—Year A Easter 2
Anthony: This transition to our next Bible passage of the month, it’s John 20:19–31. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday of Easter, April 12. Catherine, would you read it for us, please?
Catherine: I would be so delighted to do that.
When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”24 But Thomas (who was called the Twin), one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.” 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book. 31 But these are written so that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.
Anthony: Hallelujah. I like the way you intentionally said peace be with you.
Catherine: Yeah.
Anthony: What a glorious declaration from the risen Lord Jesus to his friends. And like humanity sometimes paralyzed with fear. How might that be good news today?
Catherine: Yeah. We as human beings, we suffer with so much fear and we couch it with a lot of different verbiage: anxiety, trauma. Sometimes we couch it as like concern or anxiety, but at the end of the day, it is fear. And fear says it’s not going to be okay. I’m not going to be okay. There will be loss. Ultimately, Hebrews says, it’s fear of death and Jesus overcame death. And as the risen Christ, he can speak unto us, “Peace be with you.”
And there is an empowerment. This is not something that we have to jockey up our faith to apprehend peace. It’s what we get out of our communion with the One who is the Prince of Peace. He causes us to transcend the issues, the torments, the anxieties, the pain, the confusion, the uncertainty, the feeling that we’re not in control.
And honestly, control is an illusion anyway.
Anthony: Amen.
Catherine: Right? And so how can we be peaceful when we don’t have control? Because it was never up to us. It is from our place of our oneness and our union with this God who transcended death, who transcended sin, who transcended everything in order to grab hold of humanity and pull us out of darkness and meet us in the places where subjectively we’re experiencing all of that, we have the objective truth of what was accomplished on the cross, a death, burial, and resurrection.
And then we have the subjective truth of where we meet him, where he meets us in our felt life. And so, the beautiful thing is that there’s always a place to go. And when I’m struggling with something, I have this thing that I’ll walk around and I’ll think of something like that would create anxiety and I literally say out my mouth, this is funny, but it works for me. Nobody panic. Okay, there’s no one there but me, my Father, Son, and Spirit, right? We’re all one. They’re not panicking. So clearly, it’s me, but it helps me apprehend my haywire mind and what’s going on in my emotions so that I can go inside and connect with the one who is my peace. Because one way or the other it is going to be okay.
If somehow Jesus wasn’t this masterful Savior, if somehow, he wasn’t able to redeem all things and hold all things in himself then we might have a justifiable reason to be anxious, to be fearful. And life happens. There are things that will squash you. It is a thing. But in that, he causes us to transcend as he transcended, because we are one with this One who carries peace.
And so, this is peace beyond our comprehension, beyond our ability to understand. Because I don’t know how it’s all going to work out. But one way or the other, it’s going to be okay. One way or the other, it’s going to be good because we’re journeying in this with this God who says, “My peace I give to you.” “Peace be with you.” And we can commune in this place of peace so that somehow, we’re able to navigate whatever comes before us, and then we’re able to give out of that place.
So, when people are freaking out and there is a lot of freak out, yeah, we’re able to minister that which is inside us because we’re carriers of Christ who is our peace. And that also allows us to come up with creative solutions to the problems that comes up because our mind’s not so haywire. Yeah.
Anthony: Yeah, for sure. It’s when he says peace be with you. He can do that with integrity because peace is embodied. Peace has a name. His name is Jesus. And I’m with you. And I love that. I often call this upper room the panic room, and he enters as the unanxious presence in the room. And sometimes I think we think we want God to be just as fired up or as, just as …. No, I want God to be the One who holds the beginning from the end and is unanxious. And as I keep my eyes fixed on him, my anxiety begins to dissipate because he’s, as you said, he’s not freaking out. He’s the Lord. And he actually, even though I wouldn’t say God is in control, because we just have such a fallen understanding of control. He does have everything in his hand.
Catherine: Yeah.
Anthony: And he’s okay. And that’s such good news in an age of outrage. You mentioned Catherine, that there is an objective and subjective perspective. And I think that’s really helpful when reading Scripture, and maybe that will help frame this next question. What does it mean as it says in verse 22 to receive the Holy Spirit?
Catherine: I love that question and you totally set me up, so this is great.
Anthony: Good. Go for it.
Catherine: What a generous host. So objectively, right? We’re all in Christ. Christ is in us. God is omnipresent. So that means where is God not present? Where is his Spirit not present? “If I make my bed in the midst of Sheol, you are there.” And we make a lot of beds in Sheol. Just a thing in our mind and just in our experience, not “our fault,” but just a fallen world.
And so where is this Spirit? And so, if the Spirit is in Sheol and in him, we live and move and have our being, okay? To be, is to be in Christ in the Spirit. So, it’s not like Jesus, the Spirit wasn’t there, and then suddenly, Poof! Spirit’s there. Holy Spirit is that called the modesty of God, does not point to himself, but points to Christ.
Anthony: Yes.
Catherine: But he moves and he’s in us. I remember growing up, I was not raised in a Christian home. I didn’t say those sinner’s prayer until 27. Okay? But I had massive encounters with the Lord that literally saved my sanity in areas that were very … I knew God. Now there was a lot to that story and I don’t want to go haywire with it, but I knew God and he knew me. I knew he loved me. And I loved him. And that was pretty much my theology, which is actually dang good theology right there. And that’s what I needed to survive a traumatic childhood, right?
Anthony: Yeah.
Catherine: And in order this thought that somehow, like I say, the magic prayer and the Spirit just pops inside now. And I didn’t know? Of course, I knew him before, but this is an awakening. Like Mary, when she couldn’t see the embodied Christ before, the incarnate Christ before her until the veil was lifted. We don’t always recognize the Spirit that dwells in us, that inhabits us, that in him, we live and move and have our being until that’s unveiled.
So, we’re talking about an objective reality and objective truth that Holy Spirit is everywhere. And in us. I remember when I was … I got through a period of God I was so angry with God because everything in my life fell apart. And I was just like, “I don’t want to hear from you.” “I don’t want to see you.”
And he was like, “Okay, Catherine, I understand,” but he wouldn’t leave me. And so even when it was giving him the flying fingers. “That’s okay, babe. When you’re ready, you’ll come around.” He’s so patient.
I have a chapter in my book called Annoying Relentless Love, because he would not leave me alone. Okay. This is the God that you can’t shake even if you want to, because we are one with him. But this is our issue as human beings, that we are veiled. We don’t experience. We experience things over time. Things are unveiled to us. And this, any sense of separation is in our minds. We’re alienated in our minds.
And this is God, healing our minds, healing our ability to see what already is, because the breath of God, the ruach of God was with us in the very beginning. When you talk about Genesis and Adam and Eve walked with him in the cool of the day. Adam walked with him in the cool of, he walked in … the ruach is “cool of the day.”
We were walking in the Spirit. You can’t shake him, but we need to wake up to him. In Galatians 1, it talks about, Paul was talking about how he had been set apart from his mother’s womb and called by his grace, “was pleased to reveal his Son in me.”
Did the Holy Spirit suddenly hop in there? No. It was a revelation, a revealing and unveiling of the Spirit already present. And in this thing — so it wasn’t that Jesus was going to give them this theological thing — “so let me just, guys, let me just help you here. Holy Spirit’s already here.” He didn’t do that. He did something practical. I love God for so many reasons, but I love the way he moves practically.
We need sacrament, we need laying on of hands. We need Jesus to breathe on us. We need something so that we can apprehend what is already true and live in it.
Anthony: No, that’s so good. The sacraments, that which physically makes manifest the unseen reality of what is true and that. That the lights would come on in our minds, and it would reach our hearts. This is, oh, we could spend days talking about this, that God has objectively made it so. May we receive what is already ours. In essence, receive what is already ours in Christ. Amen and amen.
Small Group Discussion Questions
- What are some ways that you can speak “peace” over someone’s life?
- Is it comforting to know we’re simply called to share what we’ve received, not called to be experts?
- What do you do if you have doubts about your faith?
- Have you seen Christ move through the walls of your life/heart? If so, how?
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