Welcome to this week’s episode, a special rerun from our Speaking of Life archive. We hope you find its timeless message as meaningful today as it was when it was first shared.
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Program Transcript
Speaking of Life 5018 | Two Kinds of People in the World
Greg Williams
Have you ever heard someone say, “There are two kinds of people in the world”? This is usually followed by a joke or some oversimplified statement about people.
Here is one that does both: “There are two kinds of people in the world. Those who put everyone into two groups… and those who don’t.”
Well, I guess that was someone’s attempt to make fun of the idea of dividing people into two groups. But it’s no laughing matter when people are depersonalized by such groupings. Surely there is more to being an individual than the generalizations often attached to group labels.
Some group labels do have an element of truth to them: “There are two kinds of people in the world. Those who live as if they belong to Christ, and those who don’t.” This is similar to a “two kinds of people in the world” statement found in the Bible.
Although it is not worded exactly like that, let’s notice how Paul puts it in the book of Romans.
For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Romans 8:6-9 (ESV)
Unlike many “two kinds of people in the world” statements, this one is not depersonalizing. In fact, it is intended to do just the opposite. Paul can make this division between two groups because he is basing it on reality. When God came in human form, he chose all of humanity. All people were created to belong to Christ and have abundant life in him.
But not everyone believes that or wants it yet. However, there is no other option left for us. We either live by the truth of who we were created to be, or we choose to live a lie, which amounts to no life at all. So, Paul is encouraging us to embrace the life we have in Christ and live it out. That is a personalizing life. That is a meaningful life that carries forward into eternity.
Paul reminds us that no matter how many kinds of people there are, there is no life outside our life in Christ, who is continuing to pursue, draw, and embrace all of humanity to himself. Embrace the one who has embraced you.
I’m Greg Williams, Speaking of Life.
Program Transcript
Speaking of Life 5018 | Two Kinds of People in the World
Greg Williams
Have you ever heard someone say, “There are two kinds of people in the world”? This is usually followed by a joke or some oversimplified statement about people.
Here is one that does both: “There are two kinds of people in the world. Those who put everyone into two groups… and those who don’t.”
Well, I guess that was someone’s attempt to make fun of the idea of dividing people into two groups. But it’s no laughing matter when people are depersonalized by such groupings. Surely there is more to being an individual than the generalizations often attached to group labels.
Some group labels do have an element of truth to them: “There are two kinds of people in the world. Those who live as if they belong to Christ, and those who don’t.” This is similar to a “two kinds of people in the world” statement found in the Bible.
Although it is not worded exactly like that, let’s notice how Paul puts it in the book of Romans.
For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Romans 8:6-9 (ESV)
Unlike many “two kinds of people in the world” statements, this one is not depersonalizing. In fact, it is intended to do just the opposite. Paul can make this division between two groups because he is basing it on reality. When God came in human form, he chose all of humanity. All people were created to belong to Christ and have abundant life in him.
But not everyone believes that or wants it yet. However, there is no other option left for us. We either live by the truth of who we were created to be, or we choose to live a lie, which amounts to no life at all. So, Paul is encouraging us to embrace the life we have in Christ and live it out. That is a personalizing life. That is a meaningful life that carries forward into eternity.
Paul reminds us that no matter how many kinds of people there are, there is no life outside our life in Christ, who is continuing to pursue, draw, and embrace all of humanity to himself. Embrace the one who has embraced you.
I’m Greg Williams, Speaking of Life.
Psalm 130:1–8 • Ezekiel 37:1–14 • Romans 8:6–11 • John 11:1–45
During Lent, we journey through grief, repentance, and waiting, but always toward hope. Today’s scriptures remind us that even when life feels dry, broken, or buried, God enters death and gives life. For example, the psalmist cries out “from the depths” in Psalm 130, longing for mercy and redemption / restoration of relationship. It is a prayer born out of waiting, the cry of a heart that trusts that God’s forgiveness will rise like the dawn after a long night. Out of the depths comes hope. In Ezekiel 37, God brings the prophet to a valley filled with dry bones. God commands him to speak life, and the Holy Spirit breathes over the bones until they rattle and rise, forming a living community again. What once was dead stands alive in God’s power. Romans 8 reminds us that this same Spirit lives within us. The Spirit of Christ turns our hearts from the decay of death to the fullness of life and peace we find in right relationship with God and our fellow human beings. What was lifeless becomes living because God dwells within. Finally, in John 11, Jesus calls Lazarus from the tomb. Even death cannot silence Jesus’ voice and our ability to respond. Together, these readings lead us to the heart of Lent: we face the reality of our weakness and mortality. But we do so knowing that God can bring light from darkness, hope from despair, and life from the grave.
God Enters Death and Gives Life
John 11:1–45 NRSVUE
In the summer of 1967, a seventeen-year-old named Joni Eareckson dove into a lake while swimming with friends. The water was shallower than she realized. The impact broke her neck and left her paralyzed from the neck down. In a single moment, her life changed in ways she never chose and could not undo.
In the months that followed, Joni lived in a kind of living death. She used a wheelchair. Her days were filled with pain, dependence, and grief. She prayed for healing that did not come. She begged God to restore what had been taken. At times, she admitted later, she told God she did not want to live if this was what life would be.
And yet, over time, something unexpected happened. Not a cure. Not a miracle in the way she had hoped. But a presence. In the long silence of her hospital room, Joni began to sense that God had not left her. She discovered that while her body might never walk again, her soul was not trapped. Her life was not over. What looked like an ending slowly became something else.
Joni learned to paint by holding a brush in her mouth. She began to write, to speak, to sing. Eventually, she founded an organization that provided wheelchairs, support, and dignity to people around the world living with disabilities. Her story did not become easy. But it became alive.
Joni’s story does not mean that suffering can be erased. It does not explain it away. But it does show us something important: when the good things of life seem over, when hope feels buried, God is still able to bring life where we expected only death.
That is the heart of John 11.
This chapter is not just a story about a man named Lazarus. It is a story about delay, grief, anger, tears, and tombs. And at the center of it all stands Jesus, who does not remain at a safe distance, but walks directly into the place we fear most — death.
Here is the good news that anchors everything else we will say today, the truth we will return to again and again:
God enters death and gives life.
Before we go any further, let’s talk about what we mean when we say, “God enters death.” We mean that Jesus, who is God, didn’t escape death; he went through it. Since Jesus died in our place, Christians believe that’s why death doesn’t get the final word.
When Christians say that God “enters death,” we also mean destruction, decay, and suffering. To say God enters death is to say that Jesus shares in our suffering because he experienced it. He knew loss, pain, injustice, humiliation, and fear.
Death is not just about the end of life. It’s the end of dreams, relationships, and plans. To say God enters death is to say God steps into those endings with us instead of leaving us to deal with them alone.
Let’s read John 11:1–45. (Read or ask someone to read the passage now or during the “scripture reading” portion of the service.)
Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 Mary was the one who anointed the Lord with perfume and wiped his feet with her hair; her brother Lazarus was ill. 3 So the sisters sent a message to Jesus, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” 4 But when Jesus heard it, he said, “This illness does not lead to death; rather, it is for God’s glory, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.” 5 Accordingly, though Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus, 6 after having heard that Lazarus was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was.
7 Then after this he said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.” 8 The disciples said to him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now trying to stone you, and are you going there again?” 9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Those who walk during the day do not stumble because they see the light of this world. 10 But those who walk at night stumble because the light is not in them.” 11 After saying this, he told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will be all right.” 13 Jesus, however, had been speaking about his death, but they thought that he was referring merely to sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 For your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 Thomas, who was called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”
17 When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, some two miles away, 19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them about their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, while Mary stayed at home. 21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask of him.” 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.”
28 When she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary and told her privately, “The Teacher is here and is calling for you.” 29 And when she heard it, she got up quickly and went to him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet come to the village but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31 The Jews who were with her in the house consoling her saw Mary get up quickly and go out. They followed her because they thought that she was going to the tomb to weep there. 32 When Mary came where Jesus was and saw him, she knelt at his feet and said to him, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33 When Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was greatly disturbed in spirit and deeply moved. 34 He said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus began to weep. 36 So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” 37 But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”
38 Then Jesus, again greatly disturbed, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, already there is a stench because he has been dead four days.” 40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus looked upward and said, “Father, I thank you for having heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I have said this for the sake of the crowd standing here, so that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with strips of cloth and his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.” 45 Many of the Jews, therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what Jesus did believed in him. John 11:1–45 NRSVUE
The Delay That Feels Like Abandonment
The story begins with sickness. Lazarus, a man loved by his sisters Mary and Martha, is ill. They send word to Jesus. The message is simple and urgent: “Lord, the one you love is sick.”
Many of us have experienced this kind of moment. We need help. We send the message. We ask. Maybe we pray. We trust and hope that help will come quickly.
But Jesus does not rush.
John tells us that Jesus stays where he is for two more days. By the time he arrives, Lazarus has been dead for four days. Lazarus’ body has been placed in a tomb. At that time, when a person died, they were placed in a tomb. A tomb is a chamber or room cut into rock. The entrance is sealed or covered with a stone slab.
So, when Jesus arrives, Lazarus is dead; he’s in the tomb; the tomb is sealed. The grief is heavy. His sisters, Mary and Martha, are no longer hoping for a miracle.
This delay is not explained in a way that makes everything feel neat. And that matters. Because for people of faith, we believe that God can act. That’s not the hardest part of faith. It is living in the space where God could act but has not yet.
The waiting room.
The hospital bed.
The unanswered prayer.
The silence.
The isolation.
This story refuses to pretend that waiting is easy or noble. Martha runs out to meet Jesus with words that are both faith and accusation: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”
Those words carry disappointment. They also carry trust. She still calls him Lord. She still runs toward him. She does not hide her grief or clean up her frustration.
And Jesus does not correct her. He does not explain himself. He does not offer a lesson on patience.
He offers a promise.
“Your brother will rise again.”
Martha hears this as future hope, resurrection someday, later, “on the last day.” That’s something she already believes.
But Jesus is about to show her that resurrection is not only a future event. It is a present reality standing in front of her.
Because in Jesus is the resurrection and the life. In Jesus, God enters death and gives life.
God Does Not Stand Outside Our Grief.
As Jesus moves closer to the tomb, the story slows down. John, the writer of this story, lingers over the emotions: the tears, the anger, and the ache in the air.
When Jesus sees Mary weeping, and the crowd with her, he is “deeply moved.” The language here is strong. It suggests agitation. Distress. A holy anger at what death has done to the people he loves.
And then comes the shortest verse in Scripture, and an important one.
“Jesus wept.”
This is not a performance. This is not a teaching moment. This is God in the flesh standing in front of a grave and crying.
Here is something this story insists we see: God does not explain our pain away. God does not tell us to move on quickly. God does not remain untouched or unaffected by our pain.
In Jesus, God enters grief. God enters loss. God enters the silence at the tomb at the grave where words no longer work.
If you have ever wondered whether God understands what it feels like to lose someone, to stand helpless in front of what cannot be fixed, this moment answers that question.
God does not love us from a distance.
God comes close enough to weep.
God does not save us by avoiding death.
This is the Incarnation. God became human in Jesus, not as an idea, but as presence. God with skin on. God with tears on his face. God standing where we stand, united to us.
And still, the story does not end with tears.
Because in Jesus, God enters death and gives life.
The Tomb Is Not The End of the Story.
When Jesus arrives at the tomb, he gives a command that feels almost unbearable: “Take away the stone.”
This is not because Jesus cannot act unless humans help. God’s work in us can bring us face to face with the reality we would rather avoid. The sealed places. The grief we have learned to hide. The hopelessness we have learned to live with. The losses we have named “final.”
Martha protests. “Lord, by this time there will be a smell.” In other words: this is too late. Too far gone. Too real.
But Jesus does not argue. He prays.
And this matters.
Before he calls Lazarus out, Jesus thanks the Father. He roots what is about to happen in relationship, not power. What unfolds at the tomb is not a display of raw force, but the overflow of communion between Father, Son, and Spirit.
Then Jesus speaks.
“Lazarus, come out.”
He calls a dead man by name.
And life obeys. Life obeys the Life-giver.
Lazarus comes out, still wrapped in grave clothes. He is alive, but not yet free. And Jesus says to the community around him, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
Notice the order. Life first. The unbinding, the freedom second. Resurrection life precedes release.
This is crucial. Because we reverse it too often. We assume freedom must come before life. That we must clean ourselves up before we are welcomed back. That healing depends on our readiness.
But in this story, Lazarus does nothing to earn being brought back to life. He does not cooperate. He does not decide. He does not even believe first.
First, God gives him life. First, Jesus, who is the resurrection, comes to us even when we are still bound.
Because in Jesus, God enters death and gives life.
Lazarus Points Beyond Himself
It is important to remember that Lazarus will die again. Jesus brings Lazarus back to life; he resuscitates him. This is not the resurrection to eternal life. But this is a sign pointing forward to resurrection.
The author John places this story right before the events that lead Jesus to the cross. In fact, this miracle becomes the turning point that convinces the authorities that Jesus must be stopped.
Why?
Because Jesus has just done something that only God can do. He has called life out of death. And by doing so, he has sealed his own fate.
The one who calls Lazarus out of the tomb will soon be placed in a tomb himself. This is where the story deepens because it points to the cross.
Lazarus breathes again because Jesus will give up his spirit.
On the cross,
Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last. Luke 23:46 NIV
Jesus does not conquer death by avoiding it. He conquers death by entering it fully, carrying it in his own body, and breaking it from the inside. Jesus dies the death we cannot die.
This is vicarious grace. Substitution. Love that takes our place.
In Jesus, God enters death and gives life.
Not for merely a little while.
Not as just a symbol.
But forever.
The Work of the Triune God
This story is not only about Jesus acting alone. It reveals the life of the Trinity, our triune God. Triune means three.
The Father sends the Son into the world, not to remain distant from suffering, but to stand in its deepest place. The Son obeys not out of obligation, but out of love, giving himself fully to the work of life. And the Spirit is the breath of resurrection, the power that raises, the presence that sustains new life beyond the tomb.
The Father sends life.
The Son embodies life.
The Spirit delivers life.
This is not a lonely God. This is a God who acts in communion, in community, in union, drawing us into that shared life.
Resurrection is not just something God does for us, one day, after we die. It is something God invites us into now. Because Jesus was resurrected, he invites us into his resurrection life, into new life.
Receiving Life, Not Achieving It
Notice how little Lazarus contributes. He receives life before he can respond to it. The community unbinds him not to make him alive, but because he already is alive.
This reframes how we hear our own stories.
Some of us are waiting for an answer, for help, for relief.
Some of us are grieving losses that feel irreversible.
Some of us are carrying stones we assume cannot be moved.
This passage does not promise that every loss will be reversed in the way we want. But it does promise this: death does not get the final word.
Life is not something we must manufacture or create by our effort. It is something God gives.
And often, it comes not as a return to the old normal, but as a new kind of living we could not have imagined before.
Hope That Reaches Into the Present
Resurrection is not only about what happens after death. It is about how life breaks into the present.
This is where Joni Eareckson’s story connects again. Her paralysis was not reversed. But her life was not over. God did not remove her suffering, but God was with her in it and brought life where despair once ruled.
That is not a formula. It is a witness.
Resurrection life looks different in different bodies and stories. But it always bears the same mark: hope that does not depend on circumstances.
Because in Jesus, God enters death and gives life.
Since this is the life God gives, it does not stop with us. When God calls us out of death, he also sends us back into the world as people who know where life comes from. We begin to notice the tombs around us — not to fix them, but to stand near them with hope.
We move toward suffering, like Jesus did. We listen longer. We show up more patiently. We refuse to give up on people or places the world has written off as finished. This is how we can participate in God’s mission. We do not carry life in our hands; we bear witness to the life God is already giving. We trust that the same voice that called Lazarus still speaks through love, presence, and mercy today.
The Promise We Stand On
The story of Lazarus ends with many believing, and others plotting to kill Jesus. But for those who are weary, grieving, or afraid, this story offers something steady.
God does not abandon us to the tomb.
God does not ask us to climb our way out.
God comes in.
God calls our name.
God gives life.
The Father sends.
The Son enters.
The Spirit raises.
And that is the promise we stand on.
So, wherever you find yourself today — waiting, grieving, hoping, doubting — hear this good news again:
God enters death and gives life.
Not only someday.
But truly.
Even now.
Amen.
Chris Breslin—Year A Lent 5
Listen to audio: https://cloud.gci.org/dl/GReverb/GR073-Breslin-YearA-Lent5.mp3
Sunday, March 22, 2026 — Fifth Sunday in Lent/Easter Preparation
John 11:1-45 (NRSVUE)
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Program Transcript
Chris Breslin—Year A Lent 5
Anthony: All right, let’s transition to our final pericope of the month. It’s John 11:1–45. We’ll read just a shortened version of that. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fifth Sunday of Lent / Easter Preparation, March 22. Chris, read it for us, please.
Chris: Sure.
Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 Mary was the one who anointed the Lord with perfume and wiped his feet with her hair; her brother Lazarus was ill. 3 So the sisters sent a message to Jesus, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” 4 But when Jesus heard it, he said, “This illness does not lead to death; rather, it is for God’s glory, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.” 5 Accordingly, though Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus, 6 after having heard that Lazarus was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was. 7 Then after this he said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.” 8 The disciples said to him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now trying to stone you, and are you going there again?” 9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Those who walk during the day do not stumble because they see the light of this world. 10 But those who walk at night stumble because the light is not in them.” 11 After saying this, he told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will be all right.” 13 Jesus, however, had been speaking about his death, but they thought that he was referring merely to sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 For your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 Thomas, who was called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.” 17 When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, some two miles away, 19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them about their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, while Mary stayed at home. 21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask of him.” 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.” 28 When she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary and told her privately, “The Teacher is here and is calling for you.” 29 And when she heard it, she got up quickly and went to him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet come to the village but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31 The Jews who were with her in the house consoling her saw Mary get up quickly and go out. They followed her because they thought that she was going to the tomb to weep there. 32 When Mary came where Jesus was and saw him, she knelt at his feet and said to him, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33 When Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was greatly disturbed in spirit and deeply moved. 34 He said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus began to weep. 36 So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” 37 But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?” 38 Then Jesus, again greatly disturbed, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, already there is a stench because he has been dead four days.” 40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus looked upward and said, “Father, I thank you for having heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I have said this for the sake of the crowd standing here, so that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with strips of cloth and his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.” 45 Many of the Jews, therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what Jesus did believed in him.
Anthony: So how does the story end, Chris? Does he bring him back to life? Of course he does, and I think many of our listeners will know the rest of the text there. There’s just so much here. So, I wanted to give you a chance just to riff. What are you interested in us hearing? Teach, Teacher! Let’s hear it.
Chris: Yeah. I did preach on parts of this passage in the last year or two. And it’s interesting ’cause I was doing a little bit of cleanup. Several weeks earlier I’d had a lay person preach with not a whole lot of experience. And they did an overall really good job preaching on the Mary and Martha story from earlier.
And congregation walked away with so much good stuff from that passage. But I felt like there was a little bit of an oversimplified kind of Martha, the busy body, Mary, the serious spiritual one, vibe happening. And it just needed to be a little more filled out. So, that’s what I mean by cleanup.
So, we get to this story. And so, I chose this text. And we get to this story and we find these sisters. And if you have siblings, you know how very interesting dynamics come out when you are hosting an important guest. And now they, these same sisters are in a moment of deep grief and they are completely univocal.
We clipped the passage, but Mary also repeats what Martha said about, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”
Anthony: Yeah.
Chris: So, it’s fascinating. We just read a passage about pointing fingers related to suffering, but this is quite different than “Who sinned, his father or mother?”
The praise is coming out sideways. They actually believe that Jesus could and would have countered Lazarus’ death. And so, they’re blaming Jesus a little for not being there. So, I think that this is like a beautiful and weird display of faith that probably most people can connect to.
If you’ve ever been deep in surprising grief, like whether you fall on the “got to get things done” or the “sit at Jesus’s feet and soak it up end” of the spectrum, you understand what it feels like to experience great loss and to try to figure out what the heck happened and what could have been different.
Anthony: Yeah.
Chris: There’s this old religious, like, old, old religious self-help book of Ars Moriendi, The Art of Dying. And it is like an instruction manual for how to be with people. And it tries to anticipate and name and short circuit some of the common struggles or temptations in dealing with death. This was written at a time of, like, plague where there was just death everywhere.
And the three kind of temptations or common struggles that it isolates are that when you experience death, not your own death, but death around you that you’ll lose faith, that you’ll despair, or that you’ll become impatient with that feeling of emptiness and loss and grief and try to mobilize death or move beyond it or do something to buffer, that deep feeling of pain.
It’s interesting in exploring this passage, like, I’m interested in exploring this passage as folks experiencing one of the worst days of their lives and still very imperfectly and maybe even problematically coming up with a way of looking at and pointing to Jesus. And it doesn’t seem like that really bothers Jesus that much to be blamed because their blame bears witness to their trust.
Anthony: I appreciate you saying that it bears witness to their trust in him. I have heard so many sermons about the contrastive styles of Mary and Martha, and I think Martha, sometimes from my perspective, gives a bad rap. It’s often, be Mary, don’t be Martha. But people have got to eat. That’s part of it too.
Chris: Also, it’s also interesting in this passage, Mary’s, like, kind of slow dwelling presence sensibility has her back with Lazarus and it’s actually Martha’s, like, more active and activated personality that has her first meeting Jesus …
Anthony: Yeah.
Chris: … when he arrives. And so, yeah. I do think it’s important to recognize that these are complicated real people, like all of us. And we’re really being given the gift of seeing them relate to Jesus in different ways, sometimes different ways and sometimes ways that are really unified in common.
Anthony: We talked earlier in the episode about how the kingdom of God emerges slowly but surely not often at the speed we want it to go. And I just couldn’t help but think of the connection in some ways to this story.
Jesus is the king of the kingdom. He is the kingdom’s wherever he’s at. And yet he’s late based on the timing of what we want. Oh boy, there’s a lot to unpack there too. I think Jesus proclaimed himself as the resurrection and the life. And we didn’t get to this part in the text, but Jesus weeps. And I’m just curious, is there something for us to mine there in terms of a teaching? Why would he weep when he knows what he’s about to do, raise Lazarus from the dead?
Chris: I had a post-it note on my monitor for years. I think the only reason it’s not there is maybe I moved or maybe just the sticky gave way eventually. But it was from a Eugene Peterson kind of counsel for pastors. And one of the things that he said that pastors attempting to emulate the good shepherd Jesus, one of the things that we would be, is unhurried.
And so, it can really be a challenging thing to try to be, and I think this passage really is like the greatest fear for if we approach ministry in an unhurried way, is that we actually might miss something big or important or might even be blamed for something that, that we could have been present for.
And I take heart that Jesus shows us that is okay and he is that committed to the bit that that might happen. But I also take heart in a lot of motivation that when Jesus is present with them, he is so present that he cries. That famous scripture memory verse, “Jesus wept.”
Anthony: Yeah.
Chris: I don’t think I’ll ever encounter that verse or this part of John’s gospel without thinking of Mako Fujimura, the famous Japanese American Christian artist. And the way he makes art is through this really particular Japanese practice where he pulverizes precious metals and applies them with this like water and glue. And it’s kind of like watercolors, that there’s a certain level of chance and chaos and happy accidents and how things come out, even though he is very skilled and has great purpose.
And for him, Jesus weeping at Lazarus’s graveside is the center of John’s gospel. It is structurally, but thematically too, and that Jesus’s tears give way for Lazarus’ resuscitation. But for Jesus’ resurrection, Mako has a quote in one of his books. He says, “Jesus’s tears transformed Mary’s view of her Lord, soaking the hardened ground of Bethany, Jesus’ tears co-mingled with hers. Jesus was not only a savior, but proved to be an intimate friend. The glory of God shown through the deep friendship with the Son of man, and John took note of it.”
Yeah. I feel like, also for ministry leaders and pastor types grieving publicly can really be a challenge. It feels like we need to be tough and have it all together and say the right thing rather than sometimes just falling apart a little more publicly than we care to.
I think of Henri Nouwen saying that that he’s learned that much of praying is just grieving. And yeah, I think Jesus models that. Also related to this one last thing. In the last year, I read a really fascinating book by Andy Root. He teaches up in Minnesota Twin Cities. And he writes a lot about the ministry in a secular age. And this book is called Evangelism as Consolation and talks really beautifully and imaginatively about just like Jesus in this story, just our being with people in an age of sadness and sorrow is great ministry and proclamation of the good news. He said, “Evangelism in these sad times is ultimately the confession that God meets us in our human sorrow and through our sorrow, takes our person into Jesus’s own person. And this is good news.”
Anthony: Yeah. I was sharing with a friend just in the last week about an opportunity we’re meeting as a church plant team. And I was feeling sorrow over feeling rejection by somebody. Not on our team, but someone adjacent to our church. And I’ve confessed that I’ve struggled to be vulnerable in this way often with a team.
And I shared with them what I had experienced that week and I wasn’t anticipating it, but emotion just swept over me as I was talking about it. And I, in one sense, I was trying to keep a cap on it. I don’t know if you’ve ever done that, try to fight back tears, like sometimes I’m watching a movie and I don’t want anybody to see that I’m crying. I tried to put a cap on it, but it just seemed like it was the right thing just to let it go and to be honest about what I was feeling as a result of what had happened. And I didn’t think a whole lot of it other than sharing it. But one of the team members said to me afterwards, he said, “Anthony, we needed that from you. Because your tears allowed us, gave us permission to feel some of what not only you were feeling, but what all of us had been feeling.”
And I just think, like you said, there’s just something about that. I’ve read a lot of Root’s books, but I haven’t read Evangelism as Consolation. I’m going to put that on my list, because there’s a lot of sorrow. And I, as I’m looking at our text as we kind of wrap up our time together, I know our sorrow is leading somewhere.
And I see verse 39, “Jesus said, take away the stone.” And it’s got to be a foreshadowing, right? “Take away the stone.” And as his final words in the text are, “Unbind him and let him go.” Unbind Jesus from death, let him go. And his resurrection certainly is our objective truth in reality that we participate in his resurrected life. Hallelujah. Is there anything else from this text you’d want to kind of point out, bring to our attention?
Chris: I’ll probably preach this text in a few weeks. And this is one of those cyclical texts that, you’re right on the cusp of Easter. And I’m just so thankful for this episode in the life of Jesus in that it gives our people a real chance to see themselves as included with Christ’s death and resurrection.
With this preview, those first fruits of the new creation. And in some ways, for all the ways that Jesus’s death on the cross includes us and is like the quintessential suffering of humanity, I think, of, like, … a Jesus will suffer until the end of the world sort of thing.
It’s an episode like this where it’s just messy and it’s just family and it doesn’t happen at the right time. And there’s a little confusion about … So many family lives end when it’s like so and so got checked into the hospital for some minor thing and then they never got out.
And so, yeah. It’s just a beautiful passage to see ourselves in and to see the ways that Jesus enters into our grief. Here’s our deep longing and desire for death not to win and not to continue to hurt us and not to continue to make us live and make decisions based on fearing death. And that Jesus says it in a way that’s just so human and real and accessible, still to us and for us and with us.
Anthony: And I think as pastors, ministry leaders, as proclaimers of the gospel, we have to continue to come back to this reality, that we are co-participants in Christ’s suffering and he suffers with us and he’s in the midst of it.
And in a world that feels like it’s on fire and dying at this very moment, that is indeed good news that God is with us in this moment in human history. Hallelujah. Praise him.
Well, Chris, or Rev. Bres, as we affectionately know you, I’m so grateful for you, your friendship, your guidance especially as we continue to to hitch our wagon to what Jesus is doing in Durham, North Carolina. I’m praying for you. I’m excited about the baseball season that’s just around the corner for you and your children. So, blessings being upon you. Thank you for joining us, and I want to thank our team of people who are behind the scenes that make all this work, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullens, Michelle Hartman. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for the good work that you do to make this possible.
And Chris, as is our tradition on the Gospel Reverb, we end with a word of prayer. We’d be grateful if you’d pray for us and with us.
Chris: Sure. Pray with me.
Jesus. Light of the world. Help us see, like Thomas Merton prayed. We have no idea where we are going and do not see the road ahead of us and cannot know for certain where it will end. But you encounter, you touch, you heal, and you reveal still.
Jesus, flesh and blood Word, who lives in our neighborhood, help us to receive your words. When we can’t, speak to us. Enable us when we don’t want to, dig out our ears. And when those around us won’t, let us continue to know and to speak your truth. We trust you always. Though we may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death, we will not fear for you are ever with us. You will never leave us to face perils alone. Amen.
Program Transcript
Chris Breslin—Year A Lent 5
Anthony: All right, let’s transition to our final pericope of the month. It’s John 11:1–45. We’ll read just a shortened version of that. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fifth Sunday of Lent / Easter Preparation, March 22. Chris, read it for us, please.
Chris: Sure.
Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 Mary was the one who anointed the Lord with perfume and wiped his feet with her hair; her brother Lazarus was ill. 3 So the sisters sent a message to Jesus, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” 4 But when Jesus heard it, he said, “This illness does not lead to death; rather, it is for God’s glory, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.” 5 Accordingly, though Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus, 6 after having heard that Lazarus was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was. 7 Then after this he said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.” 8 The disciples said to him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now trying to stone you, and are you going there again?” 9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Those who walk during the day do not stumble because they see the light of this world. 10 But those who walk at night stumble because the light is not in them.” 11 After saying this, he told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will be all right.” 13 Jesus, however, had been speaking about his death, but they thought that he was referring merely to sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 For your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 Thomas, who was called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.” 17 When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, some two miles away, 19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them about their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, while Mary stayed at home. 21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask of him.” 23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.” 28 When she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary and told her privately, “The Teacher is here and is calling for you.” 29 And when she heard it, she got up quickly and went to him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet come to the village but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31 The Jews who were with her in the house consoling her saw Mary get up quickly and go out. They followed her because they thought that she was going to the tomb to weep there. 32 When Mary came where Jesus was and saw him, she knelt at his feet and said to him, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33 When Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was greatly disturbed in spirit and deeply moved. 34 He said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus began to weep. 36 So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” 37 But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?” 38 Then Jesus, again greatly disturbed, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, already there is a stench because he has been dead four days.” 40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus looked upward and said, “Father, I thank you for having heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I have said this for the sake of the crowd standing here, so that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with strips of cloth and his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.” 45 Many of the Jews, therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what Jesus did believed in him.
Anthony: So how does the story end, Chris? Does he bring him back to life? Of course he does, and I think many of our listeners will know the rest of the text there. There’s just so much here. So, I wanted to give you a chance just to riff. What are you interested in us hearing? Teach, Teacher! Let’s hear it.
Chris: Yeah. I did preach on parts of this passage in the last year or two. And it’s interesting ’cause I was doing a little bit of cleanup. Several weeks earlier I’d had a lay person preach with not a whole lot of experience. And they did an overall really good job preaching on the Mary and Martha story from earlier.
And congregation walked away with so much good stuff from that passage. But I felt like there was a little bit of an oversimplified kind of Martha, the busy body, Mary, the serious spiritual one, vibe happening. And it just needed to be a little more filled out. So, that’s what I mean by cleanup.
So, we get to this story. And so, I chose this text. And we get to this story and we find these sisters. And if you have siblings, you know how very interesting dynamics come out when you are hosting an important guest. And now they, these same sisters are in a moment of deep grief and they are completely univocal.
We clipped the passage, but Mary also repeats what Martha said about, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”
Anthony: Yeah.
Chris: So, it’s fascinating. We just read a passage about pointing fingers related to suffering, but this is quite different than “Who sinned, his father or mother?”
The praise is coming out sideways. They actually believe that Jesus could and would have countered Lazarus’ death. And so, they’re blaming Jesus a little for not being there. So, I think that this is like a beautiful and weird display of faith that probably most people can connect to.
If you’ve ever been deep in surprising grief, like whether you fall on the “got to get things done” or the “sit at Jesus’s feet and soak it up end” of the spectrum, you understand what it feels like to experience great loss and to try to figure out what the heck happened and what could have been different.
Anthony: Yeah.
Chris: There’s this old religious, like, old, old religious self-help book of Ars Moriendi, The Art of Dying. And it is like an instruction manual for how to be with people. And it tries to anticipate and name and short circuit some of the common struggles or temptations in dealing with death. This was written at a time of, like, plague where there was just death everywhere.
And the three kind of temptations or common struggles that it isolates are that when you experience death, not your own death, but death around you that you’ll lose faith, that you’ll despair, or that you’ll become impatient with that feeling of emptiness and loss and grief and try to mobilize death or move beyond it or do something to buffer, that deep feeling of pain.
It’s interesting in exploring this passage, like, I’m interested in exploring this passage as folks experiencing one of the worst days of their lives and still very imperfectly and maybe even problematically coming up with a way of looking at and pointing to Jesus. And it doesn’t seem like that really bothers Jesus that much to be blamed because their blame bears witness to their trust.
Anthony: I appreciate you saying that it bears witness to their trust in him. I have heard so many sermons about the contrastive styles of Mary and Martha, and I think Martha, sometimes from my perspective, gives a bad rap. It’s often, be Mary, don’t be Martha. But people have got to eat. That’s part of it too.
Chris: Also, it’s also interesting in this passage, Mary’s, like, kind of slow dwelling presence sensibility has her back with Lazarus and it’s actually Martha’s, like, more active and activated personality that has her first meeting Jesus …
Anthony: Yeah.
Chris: … when he arrives. And so, yeah. I do think it’s important to recognize that these are complicated real people, like all of us. And we’re really being given the gift of seeing them relate to Jesus in different ways, sometimes different ways and sometimes ways that are really unified in common.
Anthony: We talked earlier in the episode about how the kingdom of God emerges slowly but surely not often at the speed we want it to go. And I just couldn’t help but think of the connection in some ways to this story.
Jesus is the king of the kingdom. He is the kingdom’s wherever he’s at. And yet he’s late based on the timing of what we want. Oh boy, there’s a lot to unpack there too. I think Jesus proclaimed himself as the resurrection and the life. And we didn’t get to this part in the text, but Jesus weeps. And I’m just curious, is there something for us to mine there in terms of a teaching? Why would he weep when he knows what he’s about to do, raise Lazarus from the dead?
Chris: I had a post-it note on my monitor for years. I think the only reason it’s not there is maybe I moved or maybe just the sticky gave way eventually. But it was from a Eugene Peterson kind of counsel for pastors. And one of the things that he said that pastors attempting to emulate the good shepherd Jesus, one of the things that we would be, is unhurried.
And so, it can really be a challenging thing to try to be, and I think this passage really is like the greatest fear for if we approach ministry in an unhurried way, is that we actually might miss something big or important or might even be blamed for something that, that we could have been present for.
And I take heart that Jesus shows us that is okay and he is that committed to the bit that that might happen. But I also take heart in a lot of motivation that when Jesus is present with them, he is so present that he cries. That famous scripture memory verse, “Jesus wept.”
Anthony: Yeah.
Chris: I don’t think I’ll ever encounter that verse or this part of John’s gospel without thinking of Mako Fujimura, the famous Japanese American Christian artist. And the way he makes art is through this really particular Japanese practice where he pulverizes precious metals and applies them with this like water and glue. And it’s kind of like watercolors, that there’s a certain level of chance and chaos and happy accidents and how things come out, even though he is very skilled and has great purpose.
And for him, Jesus weeping at Lazarus’s graveside is the center of John’s gospel. It is structurally, but thematically too, and that Jesus’s tears give way for Lazarus’ resuscitation. But for Jesus’ resurrection, Mako has a quote in one of his books. He says, “Jesus’s tears transformed Mary’s view of her Lord, soaking the hardened ground of Bethany, Jesus’ tears co-mingled with hers. Jesus was not only a savior, but proved to be an intimate friend. The glory of God shown through the deep friendship with the Son of man, and John took note of it.”
Yeah. I feel like, also for ministry leaders and pastor types grieving publicly can really be a challenge. It feels like we need to be tough and have it all together and say the right thing rather than sometimes just falling apart a little more publicly than we care to.
I think of Henri Nouwen saying that that he’s learned that much of praying is just grieving. And yeah, I think Jesus models that. Also related to this one last thing. In the last year, I read a really fascinating book by Andy Root. He teaches up in Minnesota Twin Cities. And he writes a lot about the ministry in a secular age. And this book is called Evangelism as Consolation and talks really beautifully and imaginatively about just like Jesus in this story, just our being with people in an age of sadness and sorrow is great ministry and proclamation of the good news. He said, “Evangelism in these sad times is ultimately the confession that God meets us in our human sorrow and through our sorrow, takes our person into Jesus’s own person. And this is good news.”
Anthony: Yeah. I was sharing with a friend just in the last week about an opportunity we’re meeting as a church plant team. And I was feeling sorrow over feeling rejection by somebody. Not on our team, but someone adjacent to our church. And I’ve confessed that I’ve struggled to be vulnerable in this way often with a team.
And I shared with them what I had experienced that week and I wasn’t anticipating it, but emotion just swept over me as I was talking about it. And I, in one sense, I was trying to keep a cap on it. I don’t know if you’ve ever done that, try to fight back tears, like sometimes I’m watching a movie and I don’t want anybody to see that I’m crying. I tried to put a cap on it, but it just seemed like it was the right thing just to let it go and to be honest about what I was feeling as a result of what had happened. And I didn’t think a whole lot of it other than sharing it. But one of the team members said to me afterwards, he said, “Anthony, we needed that from you. Because your tears allowed us, gave us permission to feel some of what not only you were feeling, but what all of us had been feeling.”
And I just think, like you said, there’s just something about that. I’ve read a lot of Root’s books, but I haven’t read Evangelism as Consolation. I’m going to put that on my list, because there’s a lot of sorrow. And I, as I’m looking at our text as we kind of wrap up our time together, I know our sorrow is leading somewhere.
And I see verse 39, “Jesus said, take away the stone.” And it’s got to be a foreshadowing, right? “Take away the stone.” And as his final words in the text are, “Unbind him and let him go.” Unbind Jesus from death, let him go. And his resurrection certainly is our objective truth in reality that we participate in his resurrected life. Hallelujah. Is there anything else from this text you’d want to kind of point out, bring to our attention?
Chris: I’ll probably preach this text in a few weeks. And this is one of those cyclical texts that, you’re right on the cusp of Easter. And I’m just so thankful for this episode in the life of Jesus in that it gives our people a real chance to see themselves as included with Christ’s death and resurrection.
With this preview, those first fruits of the new creation. And in some ways, for all the ways that Jesus’s death on the cross includes us and is like the quintessential suffering of humanity, I think, of, like, … a Jesus will suffer until the end of the world sort of thing.
It’s an episode like this where it’s just messy and it’s just family and it doesn’t happen at the right time. And there’s a little confusion about … So many family lives end when it’s like so and so got checked into the hospital for some minor thing and then they never got out.
And so, yeah. It’s just a beautiful passage to see ourselves in and to see the ways that Jesus enters into our grief. Here’s our deep longing and desire for death not to win and not to continue to hurt us and not to continue to make us live and make decisions based on fearing death. And that Jesus says it in a way that’s just so human and real and accessible, still to us and for us and with us.
Anthony: And I think as pastors, ministry leaders, as proclaimers of the gospel, we have to continue to come back to this reality, that we are co-participants in Christ’s suffering and he suffers with us and he’s in the midst of it.
And in a world that feels like it’s on fire and dying at this very moment, that is indeed good news that God is with us in this moment in human history. Hallelujah. Praise him.
Well, Chris, or Rev. Bres, as we affectionately know you, I’m so grateful for you, your friendship, your guidance especially as we continue to to hitch our wagon to what Jesus is doing in Durham, North Carolina. I’m praying for you. I’m excited about the baseball season that’s just around the corner for you and your children. So, blessings being upon you. Thank you for joining us, and I want to thank our team of people who are behind the scenes that make all this work, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullens, Michelle Hartman. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for the good work that you do to make this possible.
And Chris, as is our tradition on the Gospel Reverb, we end with a word of prayer. We’d be grateful if you’d pray for us and with us.
Chris: Sure. Pray with me.
Jesus. Light of the world. Help us see, like Thomas Merton prayed. We have no idea where we are going and do not see the road ahead of us and cannot know for certain where it will end. But you encounter, you touch, you heal, and you reveal still.
Jesus, flesh and blood Word, who lives in our neighborhood, help us to receive your words. When we can’t, speak to us. Enable us when we don’t want to, dig out our ears. And when those around us won’t, let us continue to know and to speak your truth. We trust you always. Though we may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death, we will not fear for you are ever with us. You will never leave us to face perils alone. Amen.
Small Group Discussion Questions
- Where in your life do you feel like you are standing near a “tomb” right now — a place that feels closed, delayed, or beyond hope — and what did it mean to hear that God enters death and gives life?
- The sermon emphasized that Lazarus does nothing to earn life — he simply receives it. Where do you notice pressure in your own life to achieve, fix, or prove yourself, and what might it look like to receive life instead?
- Jesus weeps before he raises Lazarus. How does that shape the way you think about God’s presence in grief or unanswered prayer?
- The sermon described mission as bearing witness to life God is already giving, not fixing others. Where might you sense an invitation to show up with presence, patience, or hope in the places or relationships around you?
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