Watch video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SltV70cgq5c
Program Transcript
Christmas – The Incarnation Is a New Beginning
Picture a world waiting in silence. Centuries of longing, generations holding onto promises spoken through prophets and whispered in prayers. Darkness seemed to linger, and hope felt like a distant dream. Yet even in that waiting, God’s eternal plan of love was unfolding, drawing all things toward the light of Christ.
Then, in the most surprising way—not with loud celebration or great power, but with quiet humility and gentleness—light broke through the darkness. Eternity entered time, and the infinite God became human.
On that holy night, the world was forever changed. A young mother cradled her child, shepherds hurried in from the fields, and angels filled the sky with songs of glory. Into a world marked by struggle and longing, love was born.
The incarnation is God’s declaration that no darkness is too deep, no story too broken, no heart too far gone. Jesus entered our humanity to stay—bringing forgiveness, restoring joy, and igniting hope.
What began in a manger was the start of a kingdom. A kingdom not built on power or wealth, but on grace, mercy, and love that endures forever. The light has come, and with it, a new beginning for all people.
As we celebrate the birth of Christ, let’s reflect together:
What fills you with awe and wonder when you think about the birth of Christ?
Where in your life do you long for the new beginning that only Jesus can bring?
8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.
9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. 12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”
Luke 2:8-12 (NIV)
On this Christmas Day, may awe and wonder fill our hearts. The God who is infinite became one of us, the God who is love has come near. The incarnation is our new beginning. Christ has come, Christ is with us, and Christ will come again.
Program Transcript
Christmas – The Incarnation Is a New Beginning
Picture a world waiting in silence. Centuries of longing, generations holding onto promises spoken through prophets and whispered in prayers. Darkness seemed to linger, and hope felt like a distant dream. Yet even in that waiting, God’s eternal plan of love was unfolding, drawing all things toward the light of Christ.
Then, in the most surprising way—not with loud celebration or great power, but with quiet humility and gentleness—light broke through the darkness. Eternity entered time, and the infinite God became human.
On that holy night, the world was forever changed. A young mother cradled her child, shepherds hurried in from the fields, and angels filled the sky with songs of glory. Into a world marked by struggle and longing, love was born.
The incarnation is God’s declaration that no darkness is too deep, no story too broken, no heart too far gone. Jesus entered our humanity to stay—bringing forgiveness, restoring joy, and igniting hope.
What began in a manger was the start of a kingdom. A kingdom not built on power or wealth, but on grace, mercy, and love that endures forever. The light has come, and with it, a new beginning for all people.
As we celebrate the birth of Christ, let’s reflect together:
What fills you with awe and wonder when you think about the birth of Christ?
Where in your life do you long for the new beginning that only Jesus can bring?
8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.
9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. 12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”
Luke 2:8-12 (NIV)
On this Christmas Day, may awe and wonder fill our hearts. The God who is infinite became one of us, the God who is love has come near. The incarnation is our new beginning. Christ has come, Christ is with us, and Christ will come again.
Psalm 97:1–12 • Isaiah 62:6–12 • Titus 3:4–7 • Luke 2:1–7, 8–20
Today is Christmas, a day we celebrate God becoming flesh, the nativity of our Lord. We also refer to this day as the celebration of the Incarnation — when the Son of God took on human form to become fully human and fully divine. As the apostle John wrote, he took on flesh and made his dwelling among us (John 1:14).
The theme for this week is the incarnation is a new beginning. When the Son of God took on human flesh and entered our world, he brought with himself the kingdom of God. He is the light that brings a new beginning to all. Our call to worship psalm reminds us that the coming of the Lord brings gladness and rejoicing. This is both prophetic and our new reality. The prophet talks about God’s covenant promises with those he calls, “The Holy People, The Redeemed of the Lord (Isa. 62:12 ESV).” Titus reminds us that, having been justified by the Savior’s grace, we have become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Luke describes the birth of the Messiah, the shepherds’ response, and Mary’s reaction.
A New Beginning
Isaiah 62:6–12 NRSV
Several Old Testament prophecies point to the event we celebrate today — Christmas: when God became flesh (Immanuel) and dwelled among us. There is one prophecy in Isaiah that doesn’t get as much attention as others. We will look at it today. By doing so, we can get excited about what Jesus ushered in when he became one of us to live as fully human while also being fully God.
Isaiah has many prophetic passages. Today we will look at Isaiah 62:6–12.
(Read, or have someone read, Isaiah 62:1–12.)
This passage was meant to be an encouragement to Israel, who had been conquered by the Babylonians, and it was meant to give comfort and assurance to the chosen nation. I’m sure it did give comfort to those who were willing to hear. But the message is more than just for ancient Israel. It also speaks of a type of return to the Holy Land — to the place God has chosen for his people. To ancient Israel, it was a promise that they would return to Jerusalem. But as we know from history, returning in their day didn’t solve all their problems. One could correctly say the prophecy didn’t come to fruition for Israel. But that’s because the real purpose of the prophecy was much bigger: it was pointing to the One who could restore all things.
Let’s look at this prophecy and see how its message is about the Incarnation.
In the first five verses of this prophecy, Isaiah talks about a future Israel could only dream of.
-
- Your vindication will shine out like the dawn — all will see it and be excited about a new day.
- All nations and kings will see your glory.
- You will be given a new name.
- You will be given a beautiful crown, a royal diadem.
- You won’t be forsaken; your land will not be desolate.
- You will be called, “My delight.”
- You will be rejoiced over like a bridegroom rejoices over a bride.
This prophecy, like all the Old Testament, points to Jesus, the Father’s delight. It points to the Incarnation when God becomes flesh and a new beginning emerges for all, not just all of Israel but all of humanity.
Let’s go through the verses in today’s passage.
Upon your walls, O Jerusalem, I have posted sentinels; all day and all night they shall never be silent. You who remind the Lord, take no rest, and give him no rest until he establishes Jerusalem and makes it renowned throughout the earth. Isaiah 62:6–7 NRSVUE
Paul would rephrase this to say, “Pray without ceasing (1 Thess. 5:17 ESV).” Day and night we should be in conversation with Father, Son, and Spirit. And we can talk to our Papa because Jesus revealed him to us. Prayer has new meaning now that Jesus came. He showed us that prayer is building relationship. When he said to seek first the kingdom, he is telling us to seek Father, Son, and Spirit. Israel prayed for deliverance; we pray to the Deliverer. Jesus revealed that he is the One who saves. We have a Savior we can talk to. And just as Isaiah told Israel to never be silent, Jesus taught us to go to our Father and ask, seek, knock. Get to know the Deliverer. Get to know the One who has reconciled us, who is restoring us to our true identity. Spend time with the One who is continually giving us a new beginning.
We ask God to give us strength when we face trials, to gives us peace that surpasses understanding, to remind us of the hope we have in him. And our hope is a bit different than what Israel was hoping for.
The Lord has sworn by his right hand and by his mighty arm: I will not again give your grain to be food for your enemies, and foreigners shall not drink the wine for which you have labored, but those who harvest it shall eat it and praise the Lord, and those who gather it shall drink it in my holy courts. Isaiah 62:8–9 NRSVUE
Here is where it becomes quite clear that Isaiah is talking about a time in the future that Israel has not yet experienced. This refers to salvation — Isaiah says it is coming, and we know it has already come because of the Incarnation. Jesus brought salvation to all who receive it. A new beginning is given to all who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. The past is forgiven; our sins are remembered no more. We are called new, saints, beloved. We are given a new hope. We have a different outlook on death. We have a future we long for. We look forward to a time when there are no more tears, no more sorrow, when all will live in the joy of the Lord, and we will be in an eternity filled with purpose, hope, promise, peace, and love we can only imagine. The Incarnation of Jesus makes this possible.
Let’s continue:
Go through, go through the gates; prepare the way for the people; build up, build up the highway; clear it of stones; lift up an ensign over the peoples. Isaiah 62:10 NRSVUE
Just as the prophets prepared the people for their future, John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus’ message to be heard. And we are called to prepare the way for others to hear. This is about participating with Jesus in his mission of salvation. The prophets didn’t save, John the Baptist didn’t save, and we don’t save. But we all point to the One who does save and who gives us freedom and offers us a new beginning.
Let’s conclude the passage:
The Lord has proclaimed to the end of the earth: Say to daughter Zion, “Look, your savior comes; his reward is with him and his recompense before him.” They shall be called, “The Holy People, The Redeemed of the Lord,” and you shall be called, “Sought Out, A City Not Forsaken.” Isaiah 62:11–12 NRSVUE
The Lord gives us new names: saint, called out ones, beloved. Peter emphasizes that we are a holy nation, a people chosen by God. These titles refer to you and me. The Incarnation changed everything and offered us new beginnings in every aspect of life.
As believers, we find the fulfillment of Isaiah 62:6–12 in Jesus. He is the Messiah who proclaimed and embodied God’s reign and he is the Suffering Servant who offered salvation to the world. It is revealing that Luke 4:16–21 records that Jesus began his ministry by reading the passage of Isaiah just before this, when he opened the scroll and read what we know to be Isaiah 61:1–3 and said, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing” (Luke 4:21 ESV).
Christmas day begins the season of Christmas, which ends with Epiphany. In every day of this season, let’s remind ourselves of the new beginnings the Incarnation brought us. And let’s rejoice and give praise to the One who is the author of new beginnings — Jesus.
Paul Young—Year C Christmas 1
Listen to audio: https://cloud.gci.org/dl/GReverb/GR070-Young-YearC-Christmas.mp3
Sunday, December 28, 2025 — First Sunday after Christmas
Hebrews 2:1-18 NRSVUE
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Program Transcript
Paul Young—Year C Christmas 1
Anthony: We’re in the home stretch. We have one more text to go. It’s Hebrews 2:10–18. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the first Sunday after Christmas, December 28. Paul, read it for us, please.
Paul: I would love to.
10 It was fitting that God, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, 12 saying, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you.” 13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Here am I and the children whom God has given me.” 14 Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death. 16 For it is clear that he did not come to help angels but the descendants of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself was tested by what he suffered, he is able to help those who are being tested.
Anthony: He’s able. Let’s think for a moment about sanctification. I’m curious from your perspective, is that an ongoing spiritual formational reality, or is it an already accomplished work, or is it both? And I’m referring to verse 11, and what role does the church have in declaring the sanctifying work of God in Jesus Christ?
Paul: You tell me. Who’s the church? It’s human beings. So, what role does the church have in declaring the sanctifying work of God in Jesus Christ? It’s to tell the story of being a burning bush. It is both a finished work and it is an ongoing work. We were in Christ and when he died, we died — finished work. When he rose, we rose — finished work. When he ascended, we ascended — finished work. And yet in space and time and we work it out, because our ability to say no to God matters as much as our ability to say yes.
Anthony: Wow.
Paul: Because apart from that love cannot exist. We would just be part of a machine. And so, God respects and protects our ability to say no. And yet in us continues to work moment by moment, day by day, to cleanse us, to heal us from all the detritus of the consequences of our turning away from love, all the ways that we have not been able to trust. And so there is a continuous work that is going on and God doesn’t build those kinds of roads going nowhere.
Our hope is in Jesus. Our residence is in Jesus, whether we acknowledge it or know it or not. And that is true for all of creation that was created in him. And so, the church — we bear our martyrdom, right? Our witness, our martýrios — our death.
There is a — give me a second and I’m going to look at one passage, hold on. So, I’m going add one little section to the lectionary today and here’s what it is. It’s 2 Corinthians 2:15–17.
For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To the one those who are being saved, it is a fragrance from death to death and to the other, those who are perishing, it’s a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things.
“To those who are being saved, it’s a fragrance and aroma from death to death” — that is dying to ourself, centeredness to our addictions, to our idolatry of fear, to our attachments, to our nationalism, to our money and compliments and approval, dying to future tripping, to false selves and their names, and their self-protection and self-promotion, dying to reputation and so on, and so on, and so on. This is a “death to death” experience.
To those who are perishing, it’s an aroma from “life to life.” It’s the incarnation of love and goodness and kindness, the presence of love, the burning bush that attracts by its very nature, the anomaly of something not dying. The glimpse of something alive, of a different world, of an incarnation, of “life to life.” Who is sufficient for these things?
If that’s a shout that Paul cries out, deep soul joined by spirit and mouth, by the body, the wonder of which the mind bows, it’s too much. That’s what Paul was saying. It’s too much. That’s what we’re talking about, Anthony. That’s the process of sanctification. And on any given day, in any given moment, I may be perishing as I’m holding on to crap, and at any given moment, I may be moving from “life to life.” There are some choices that I make and some embracing that I do, some extending of forgiveness that is “life to life.” And people can smell it. They can smell it. And they can also smell the death stuff.
And so, when you’re in this world and you take a whiff of the news, you can smell the perishing. And when they suddenly have a little story about someone who went out of their way to go help someone with something, you can smell it. That is the presence of the God who is love by nature and who is in us, in union with us, to express that nature into the cosmos.
Anthony: It’s not natural to love someone well.
Paul: It is natural!
Anthony: At least well from the standpoint of when I’m dying to self. It’s just, it’s hard to put somebody, to esteem somebody as greater than me, to put their needs above mine. It’s only by the indwelling the Holy Spirit. I know me, Paul. Yeah. I can’t do it.
Paul: But it’s natural. We’ve got to get to the place where we recognize that that kind of existence, that ability to love is natural to the truth of who we are. And then we can agree and join into it as natural and you will find in doing so that your world will change. It’s when we are thinking that we are in an ongoing forever battle, that our nature is such that it is polluted to begin with, that we’ve got to struggle and strive in all this. That is not natural.
Anthony: Yeah. And that’s why I really appreciate Eugene Peterson and thinking about discipleship because we often think of it as becoming something we’re not. Whereas I look at it as God is returning us to ourselves. That’s exactly who we truly are.
Paul: That’s exactly right, Anthony.
Anthony: And sometimes that doesn’t feel so great. And that can happen even in the midst of suffering. And I did want to ask you about this. We know that suffering is universal. It is part of our participation in our Lord. We’ve all been touched by it. So, I just want to ask you as a closing word, what difference does it make that we have a great high priest who is human, who in his person is in the place where divinity and humanity are united, who understands our humanity and who is super over abundant in his mercy? What difference does it make?
Paul: It makes a difference when we think about where this high priest dwells. If we think that the high priest is somewhere up there, over there, out there, then it doesn’t make any difference. Not really. It’s more of a thought experiment.
But when we recognize that this high priest is in union with us and continuing to fill up his own sufferings in us, that changes things. That means that I have a certainty of the nature of this one who refuses to leave me alone in my suffering. That uniting with my suffering means that I’m never alone to it or in it, and that Christ in me continues to fill up his sufferings and we get to join him in that, which is the way that love expresses itself into the world.
And then I know I’m not alone. And that the redeeming genius who is suffering in me, with me, we together in participation, will love in such a way in the midst of this, that we will be the presence of love in any situation, some which are so hard. And I know those who are listening, some of you out there, you are in the midst of incredible rocky times. And been there. Hellish. I’m sad with you. A lot of it you didn’t ask for. And I’m saying, look, you’re not alone. There’s no way that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will ever disregard what is going on in your world, will ever abandon you to what is going on in your world. I will never ever, ever, never ever leave you or forsake you. That is the promise of the one who suffers with us.
Anthony: Thank you, Lord. Paul. I love you, man.
Paul: Love you, too.
Anthony: And I want to remind you of something you did 10 years ago. It came to my mind. I knew we were going to have this conversation. And you probably won’t remember this, but I was about to leave on a trip with my wife Elizabeth to San Diego. And just before I closed my laptop, I was on Twitter at the moment and you had posted that you were going to be in San Diego for a book signing. And I thought, oh, I’m just going to send him a note and see if he has any free time and come hang out with us at the house where we’re going be for some meetings.
And, lo and behold, I thought there’s like a half percent chance that you’d be available. But you were, and you came and you spent hours with us just talking and sharing life and it was wonderful. And it’s just one of those moments that tells me who you are, who you know you are in Christ, and you’re just so generous with yourself and your time. I’m just very grateful for who you are.
Paul: How cool is that? I have no, it is, I have no memory of it at all.
Anthony: It’s true. It happened.
Paul: One of my own suffering places is that four years ago, [inaudible] left frontal lobe, focal point epilepsy. And I live my life on walking on trap doors, but one of the things that has impacted is my data center. And so, I have a horrible time with names and so I’m in the middle of this kind of world. And so, suffering is not something that I don’t know about in terms of my history and in terms of my ongoing real world, day by day. There’s no fear in love, and I have no fear of any of these things. And I live it one moment at a time.
So, I thank you, Holy Spirit, that I got to be honored in such a way 10 years ago as to be able to spend time with y’all. And that just blesses me. Thank you.
Anthony: Oh, you bless us. And I want to thank the team that also blesses us. A podcast doesn’t happen, poof, out of vapor. There’s a team behind this. So, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, Michelle Hartman, thank you for your gifts and the way that you share of yourselves to make this possible.
As is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we end with prayer. And Paul, we’d be delighted if you’d say a word of prayer for us.
Paul: It’s always an honor to do so.
Papa God and Jesus and Holy Spirit. Our words are certainly lacking, but you know our hearts because you dwell there and you are clearing away all the poisons and the indoctrinations and the toxic stuff. Sometimes we think too slowly. But one thing I’ve come to know about you is that you won’t heal us in such a way that would harm us. And so, Jesus like you did, entered into all of our stuff, all of it in your humanity, you went down to the depths of our delusions and our places where we cry out, “Where are you?” And you cried out our cry, but you made the choice to trust. So today we abandon our whys. Why this and why that? And we enter into your goodness in such a way that the question is now what? What now? In the middle of our losses, in the middle of our sufferings in this moment, Holy Spirit, show us what now. And I thank you. I thank you for all the millions of people who are in each moment participating in your affection, to love the one who is in front of them as Reuel and Anthony are involved in this and all the others. I know it’s an expression of your union with them participating into the world in love. So are the millions of others and the ones who are listening to this. I bless you. I bless you in this moment with peace. I bless you in this moment with the arms of affection wrapped around you, that you would sense and feel and touch and taste, that your heart would be emboldened, that you would be able to sit, to sit, to relax inside that embrace. Thank you for your ongoing kindness to each of us. Amen.
Anthony: Amen.
Program Transcript
Paul Young—Year C Christmas 1
Anthony: We’re in the home stretch. We have one more text to go. It’s Hebrews 2:10–18. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the first Sunday after Christmas, December 28. Paul, read it for us, please.
Paul: I would love to.
10 It was fitting that God, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, 12 saying, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you.” 13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Here am I and the children whom God has given me.” 14 Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death. 16 For it is clear that he did not come to help angels but the descendants of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself was tested by what he suffered, he is able to help those who are being tested.
Anthony: He’s able. Let’s think for a moment about sanctification. I’m curious from your perspective, is that an ongoing spiritual formational reality, or is it an already accomplished work, or is it both? And I’m referring to verse 11, and what role does the church have in declaring the sanctifying work of God in Jesus Christ?
Paul: You tell me. Who’s the church? It’s human beings. So, what role does the church have in declaring the sanctifying work of God in Jesus Christ? It’s to tell the story of being a burning bush. It is both a finished work and it is an ongoing work. We were in Christ and when he died, we died — finished work. When he rose, we rose — finished work. When he ascended, we ascended — finished work. And yet in space and time and we work it out, because our ability to say no to God matters as much as our ability to say yes.
Anthony: Wow.
Paul: Because apart from that love cannot exist. We would just be part of a machine. And so, God respects and protects our ability to say no. And yet in us continues to work moment by moment, day by day, to cleanse us, to heal us from all the detritus of the consequences of our turning away from love, all the ways that we have not been able to trust. And so there is a continuous work that is going on and God doesn’t build those kinds of roads going nowhere.
Our hope is in Jesus. Our residence is in Jesus, whether we acknowledge it or know it or not. And that is true for all of creation that was created in him. And so, the church — we bear our martyrdom, right? Our witness, our martýrios — our death.
There is a — give me a second and I’m going to look at one passage, hold on. So, I’m going add one little section to the lectionary today and here’s what it is. It’s 2 Corinthians 2:15–17.
For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To the one those who are being saved, it is a fragrance from death to death and to the other, those who are perishing, it’s a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things.
“To those who are being saved, it’s a fragrance and aroma from death to death” — that is dying to ourself, centeredness to our addictions, to our idolatry of fear, to our attachments, to our nationalism, to our money and compliments and approval, dying to future tripping, to false selves and their names, and their self-protection and self-promotion, dying to reputation and so on, and so on, and so on. This is a “death to death” experience.
To those who are perishing, it’s an aroma from “life to life.” It’s the incarnation of love and goodness and kindness, the presence of love, the burning bush that attracts by its very nature, the anomaly of something not dying. The glimpse of something alive, of a different world, of an incarnation, of “life to life.” Who is sufficient for these things?
If that’s a shout that Paul cries out, deep soul joined by spirit and mouth, by the body, the wonder of which the mind bows, it’s too much. That’s what Paul was saying. It’s too much. That’s what we’re talking about, Anthony. That’s the process of sanctification. And on any given day, in any given moment, I may be perishing as I’m holding on to crap, and at any given moment, I may be moving from “life to life.” There are some choices that I make and some embracing that I do, some extending of forgiveness that is “life to life.” And people can smell it. They can smell it. And they can also smell the death stuff.
And so, when you’re in this world and you take a whiff of the news, you can smell the perishing. And when they suddenly have a little story about someone who went out of their way to go help someone with something, you can smell it. That is the presence of the God who is love by nature and who is in us, in union with us, to express that nature into the cosmos.
Anthony: It’s not natural to love someone well.
Paul: It is natural!
Anthony: At least well from the standpoint of when I’m dying to self. It’s just, it’s hard to put somebody, to esteem somebody as greater than me, to put their needs above mine. It’s only by the indwelling the Holy Spirit. I know me, Paul. Yeah. I can’t do it.
Paul: But it’s natural. We’ve got to get to the place where we recognize that that kind of existence, that ability to love is natural to the truth of who we are. And then we can agree and join into it as natural and you will find in doing so that your world will change. It’s when we are thinking that we are in an ongoing forever battle, that our nature is such that it is polluted to begin with, that we’ve got to struggle and strive in all this. That is not natural.
Anthony: Yeah. And that’s why I really appreciate Eugene Peterson and thinking about discipleship because we often think of it as becoming something we’re not. Whereas I look at it as God is returning us to ourselves. That’s exactly who we truly are.
Paul: That’s exactly right, Anthony.
Anthony: And sometimes that doesn’t feel so great. And that can happen even in the midst of suffering. And I did want to ask you about this. We know that suffering is universal. It is part of our participation in our Lord. We’ve all been touched by it. So, I just want to ask you as a closing word, what difference does it make that we have a great high priest who is human, who in his person is in the place where divinity and humanity are united, who understands our humanity and who is super over abundant in his mercy? What difference does it make?
Paul: It makes a difference when we think about where this high priest dwells. If we think that the high priest is somewhere up there, over there, out there, then it doesn’t make any difference. Not really. It’s more of a thought experiment.
But when we recognize that this high priest is in union with us and continuing to fill up his own sufferings in us, that changes things. That means that I have a certainty of the nature of this one who refuses to leave me alone in my suffering. That uniting with my suffering means that I’m never alone to it or in it, and that Christ in me continues to fill up his sufferings and we get to join him in that, which is the way that love expresses itself into the world.
And then I know I’m not alone. And that the redeeming genius who is suffering in me, with me, we together in participation, will love in such a way in the midst of this, that we will be the presence of love in any situation, some which are so hard. And I know those who are listening, some of you out there, you are in the midst of incredible rocky times. And been there. Hellish. I’m sad with you. A lot of it you didn’t ask for. And I’m saying, look, you’re not alone. There’s no way that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will ever disregard what is going on in your world, will ever abandon you to what is going on in your world. I will never ever, ever, never ever leave you or forsake you. That is the promise of the one who suffers with us.
Anthony: Thank you, Lord. Paul. I love you, man.
Paul: Love you, too.
Anthony: And I want to remind you of something you did 10 years ago. It came to my mind. I knew we were going to have this conversation. And you probably won’t remember this, but I was about to leave on a trip with my wife Elizabeth to San Diego. And just before I closed my laptop, I was on Twitter at the moment and you had posted that you were going to be in San Diego for a book signing. And I thought, oh, I’m just going to send him a note and see if he has any free time and come hang out with us at the house where we’re going be for some meetings.
And, lo and behold, I thought there’s like a half percent chance that you’d be available. But you were, and you came and you spent hours with us just talking and sharing life and it was wonderful. And it’s just one of those moments that tells me who you are, who you know you are in Christ, and you’re just so generous with yourself and your time. I’m just very grateful for who you are.
Paul: How cool is that? I have no, it is, I have no memory of it at all.
Anthony: It’s true. It happened.
Paul: One of my own suffering places is that four years ago, [inaudible] left frontal lobe, focal point epilepsy. And I live my life on walking on trap doors, but one of the things that has impacted is my data center. And so, I have a horrible time with names and so I’m in the middle of this kind of world. And so, suffering is not something that I don’t know about in terms of my history and in terms of my ongoing real world, day by day. There’s no fear in love, and I have no fear of any of these things. And I live it one moment at a time.
So, I thank you, Holy Spirit, that I got to be honored in such a way 10 years ago as to be able to spend time with y’all. And that just blesses me. Thank you.
Anthony: Oh, you bless us. And I want to thank the team that also blesses us. A podcast doesn’t happen, poof, out of vapor. There’s a team behind this. So, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, Michelle Hartman, thank you for your gifts and the way that you share of yourselves to make this possible.
As is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we end with prayer. And Paul, we’d be delighted if you’d say a word of prayer for us.
Paul: It’s always an honor to do so.
Papa God and Jesus and Holy Spirit. Our words are certainly lacking, but you know our hearts because you dwell there and you are clearing away all the poisons and the indoctrinations and the toxic stuff. Sometimes we think too slowly. But one thing I’ve come to know about you is that you won’t heal us in such a way that would harm us. And so, Jesus like you did, entered into all of our stuff, all of it in your humanity, you went down to the depths of our delusions and our places where we cry out, “Where are you?” And you cried out our cry, but you made the choice to trust. So today we abandon our whys. Why this and why that? And we enter into your goodness in such a way that the question is now what? What now? In the middle of our losses, in the middle of our sufferings in this moment, Holy Spirit, show us what now. And I thank you. I thank you for all the millions of people who are in each moment participating in your affection, to love the one who is in front of them as Reuel and Anthony are involved in this and all the others. I know it’s an expression of your union with them participating into the world in love. So are the millions of others and the ones who are listening to this. I bless you. I bless you in this moment with peace. I bless you in this moment with the arms of affection wrapped around you, that you would sense and feel and touch and taste, that your heart would be emboldened, that you would be able to sit, to sit, to relax inside that embrace. Thank you for your ongoing kindness to each of us. Amen.
Anthony: Amen.
Small Group Discussion Questions
- What do you think of when you hear the word, Incarnation?
- What new beginnings have you experienced in your relationship with Jesus?
- What new beginnings do you look forward to?
- Share your favorite Christmas passage in Scripture and why it means so much to you.
