Theological Ethics w/ Gary Deddo

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

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Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity. And today we are blessed to have Dr. Gary Deddo as our guest. Dr. Deddo is a professor at Grace Communion Seminary and has been participating in GCI and GCS since 2012.

And today for our first episode of 2025, we are going to begin exploring our theme of kingdom living through exploring particularly the course of theological ethics that Dr. Deddo teaches at Grace Community Seminary. So, thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Deddo.

[00:01:35] Gary: Thank you, Cara. It’s a privilege to be with you and to address your audience.

I’m very happy to talk about the seminary and in particular this class that we call Theological Ethics. But that is a very important topic and very complex as anytime you hear the word ethics everybody gets stiff and maybe a bit worried. And so, it’s a huge topic.

It is complex, complicated in a way, but that’s what you need a class for, right? You need a class to have time, to have resources, to think and to talk and interact with others and to work things through, to pray things through, to study scripture that’s relevant to the topic. So, it really does take a good amount of time and some discipline.

And usually, a class helps us be disciplined. You’d make out plans and say I want to read this book, or I want to look into this. And then, of course, you don’t. But a class helps because you’re working with others. And so certainly this topic, theological ethics, does call for that.

And so usually we have a great time. This is, I think, the fourth time we’ve had the class, and it’s always been very productive.

And part of it is, it does take time, and it does take effort. And there’s so many complications, and there’s also many pressures on us to try to discern what’s good, what’s true, what’s right, what I ought to do. And a lot of times, of course, we’re thinking about what others ought to do and that’s certainly part of it, but we have to start with ourselves.

Yeah, we have a class on it that lasts twelve weeks and people put in about, oh, twelve hours a week for each of those weeks to work things through. We have a couple of textbooks.

But the topic itself is important. We call it theological ethics. And the reason we qualify the word ethics with theological is because not all thinking about right and wrong, not all teaching about right and wrong, is theological. That is, it doesn’t connect with who God is or who a particular god is or who the Christian God is.

And in this class, we want to link together who God is — the God revealed in Jesus Christ according to Scripture — and then see what does that have to do with how we live our lives, how we discern what’s good and right, how we avoid being deceived or used, or use others or treat others poorly.

So, you want to connect together theology, which is our knowledge and faith in the living God, and how that then yields fruit in our lives: what we do, what we think, how we act, how we react. So, it’s a theological ethic.

Often without the connection between who God is and trusting in God, we just do what’s right because we just have a feeling, and then we think about it later. Or we’ve heard someone say something, and it sounded good to us, so we went with it. Or sometimes it’s out of guilt or fear or anxiety that we decide to act a certain way, react a certain way, and there’s not a lot of prayer; there’s not a lot of thought.

Or later on we realize, wow, I didn’t take into consideration that. Wow, if I would have realized that, I probably would have decided differently or reacted differently or decided differently.

We want to bring our theology, our faith, our worship, our prayer together with what we think and decide and how we react and reply, and yes, even sometimes how we vote, what that adds up to. So, it’s a theological ethic. In the biblical way to talk about this comes up, actually, in Romans chapter 1. And then Romans 16, the last chapter as well, Paul says his whole ministry is to do nothing other than to bring about the obedience of faith. That phrase, the obedience of faith, that’s another way to talk about what a theological ethic is about. It’s trying to discern and prepare ourselves to do what is good and right according to God’s will and way and God’s heart and mind, and to do that out of trust or faith in the living God, as if God is real, as if God is present, as if God is active, as if God knows better than we do, and what’s the best for us.

And that’s why we hear in His word, we’re given directions as to which way to go, which ways to decide. So, we obey by faith, out of trust. So, it’s a part of our worship relationship with the living God. Rather than just stoic, “I have to do it,” or there’s a rule about it, so I better, or someone’s going to be unhappy with me, or I’m going to be unhappy with myself.

Rather, the only obedience — a response to God’s will and way and heart and mind — is to trust Him. So that’s another way to talk about the obedience to God. The obedience of faith is another way to talk about a theological ethic.

So that’s what we’re looking into. And of course, you can’t figure everything out in a class. That’s not the purpose of it. And anybody would already immediately recognize, no, we’re probably not going to do that. And we don’t. The point really is to be better prepared. That’s the point. How can we get better prepared? And how can we find others who can help us get better prepared? And how we might be able to help others get better prepared to hear the Word of God, to trust God, so that we’re free, and we see the good and right of what God is calling us to do. We’re getting better prepared by coming together, praying together, studying Scripture together, and reading others who have worked through the matters of good faith and evil, right and wrong better and worse. So that’s what we do in the class. And that’s what theological ethics is.

So, we could talk about also what it has to do with, you asked about the practice or the nature of the kingdom of God. That’s another part of it too. Where do ethics really come from?

As we know, a kingdom is a group of people. Jesus talks about He has come, and the kingdom is present among you when He comes. So, it’s about relationships. And of course, ethics isn’t anything …

[00:09:35] Cara: Yes. And I thank you for sharing that. And I took this course a couple years ago and what you’ve shared, I think that as someone who’s taken the course that I want to highlight for our listeners is like you said, we can’t learn and cover everything.

We can’t learn and cover everything in just one course. But what I found really helpful and practical is that we really dove into the process, right? Like how do we approach it and go about. And as you said, that’s the theological approach to ethics. And so, as you said, the preparation for that.

And so, I think that is clear with how that really has to do with our theme for 2025 of kingdom living. it really informs how do we live and how do we move through this world, right? Like you said, how do we discern as we do that?

And so, I wonder because it seems like this course and my personal experience, and as you describe it, has a very practical impact on our lives as disciples of Jesus.

What if you had to name just one — and I know that can be difficult. What would be one major takeaway from this course that would develop a student’s practice of kingdom living if they’ve taken the course?

[00:11:17] Gary: Yes, a lot of it is just dealing with Scripture that really directs us in our lives as to what’s important.

Obviously, we start with the love of — the two commandments, love of God and love of neighbor. So just dealing with Scripture and all that it says. What does it say about yes, caring for the poor or loving your neighbor? All these kinds of things that are there. So, part of it is just a survey of Scripture that starts from the Old Testament and then runs to the New Testament.

But it does focus on sorting out the nature of love, and I think there’s lots of confusion about that. And that’s a problem. Everybody says you ought to be loving, and you ought to be kind. But the thing is, what do you mean and what does that look like in a particular situation?

And it turns out that in the New Testament, for instance love really requires knowledge. You have to know something in order to be loving. You have to know something about what’s true. You have to know something about what is good. So, we explore that so that your love is not an unloving love or a less than good kindness.

But there’s a lot of very simple understandings of love and kindness that float around. And everybody thinks you can instantly and immediately know what it is. So, we delve a lot into what it means to love a neighbor, and in various situations, what it might add up to.

And so, it’s more than just following rules and things. Even rules you can find in Scripture a lot of times is asking, if I want to love my neighbor in this situation, what do I do? What if they’re on a death bed? What if they were in a car accident? What if they’ve lied to me? What if I’ve lied to them? Things like that. So, a lot of it is sorting through what is loving and kind.

I suppose another word that we looked into is the notion of justice. There’s a lot of talk about justice and social justice, but what is it? What does it look like? How do I as an individual deal with it? Or how does a government deal with it? And those are two very different issues to be sorted through because what governments could and should do can be very different than what an individual or a local church should do.

So, we look through a lot of these very basic terms that, at first, seem easy: love, kindness, justice. And then try to see what it really adds up to and prepare for situations that might arise. So that’s a lot of kind of focusing on these key issues, key matters to sort through much more carefully and be better prepared.

[00:14:39] Cara: Excellent. Thank you for sharing that Dr. Deddo. And absolutely, I can see that very practical and tangible connection to this idea of kingdom living. And as we said in the opening, this podcast in particular is focused on best ministry practices for GCI leaders in our context of church ministry.

And so, I’m wondering how does a theological approach to ethics — because as you said, not all approaches to ethics are necessarily theological. So how does a theological approach to ethics impact or inform and shape our practice of ministry?

[00:15:34] Gary: The two do need to go together. So, one of the things is we often if we’re involved in ministry or serving others, sometimes that involves setting things up, organizing things, just making decisions, or sometimes encouraging people to do or participate in certain things. But on what basis do we motivate people to do something, to get involved, to invest themselves in an activity, in a relationship, in a program, really in anything?

And it’s very easy to go to Scripture and just pull out particular verses to do this and to do that. You can take a big, huge one, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Wow. That’s a good thing. You can motivate people by just issuing kind of imperatives and ones that you find in the Bible. Love your neighbor. “If you have love for one another, then people will know you’re my disciple.”

So, love one another. So, you can just tell people things to do sometimes they’re ethical things, what are good and right to do and avoid wrong, bad, evil, harmful things. And other times they’re practical, but always we’re often in situations of kind of motivating people, but it makes a difference how you motivate people, just barking commands at people doesn’t really do it.

It creates a kind of stoic response. “Okay, I have to do this because someone is requiring it of me; God or the ministry leader is requiring this of me. And so, I better, if I want to stay in their favor.” So, we can just call these categories imperatives. Do this. It’s a command, an imperative, it’s imperative that you do this.

But that’s really not how all of Scripture works, any of Scripture works, because the word of God does not work that way. Jesus doesn’t work that way. Paul doesn’t work that way in his writings. So, to go back to the Philippians, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” You have to — the reason why, the motivational frame is because “God is at work in you, both to do and to will, according to His good pleasure.”

Oh, you mean I can count on that? I can count on God being at work in me and to give me the will and to do what’s good and right, and to be, do, be involved in what the things God is involved in? Wow. If I can count on that, I guess I can think about working out my salvation. How do I live out my life under the kingship of Christ, under his leadership?

And everything in Scripture is put together that way, even if you go back to the Old Testament. What we hear before we get the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 is “I am the Lord your God who took you out of Egypt, so you shall have no other gods.” If you miss the first part, you just hear, you shall have no other gods. You’re left hanging in midair. It just becomes an act of pure will. I’ll get out [inaudible], but that’s not how it works. God says, you can count on me. I’m the kind of God this takes you and has taken you out of the wilderness, sets you free from Egypt. That’s the kind of God I am.

All right, so you’re not going to have any other gods. Which God would you like? The fly God? How about the frog God? What did they do for you, right? None of these gods, they’re not even going to be tempted to worship those gods. None of those gods delivered them. They all enslaved them.

Part of ministry practice is providing people the proper motivation, which is to trust in the living God.

James Torrance, for instance, who I studied with, called these the indicatives of grace. They indicate the God who is gracious, the character, the nature, the purpose, the mind, the heart of God that we see and hear in Jesus. God is like Jesus all the way down. So, when you see, okay, so that’s who I’m obeying.

That’s whose instructions I’m listening to. That’s the one I’m trusting in is God. I am going to attempt to do this, to react this way, to behave this way to make this decision rather than that. So again, it’s another way to get at the obedience of faith. So, in ministry, we want to put forward what builds faith.

It’s talking about who God is, the indicatives of grace. This is who God is, this is what He provides. He is over us as the Father, He’s with us as the Son, and He’s at work among us and even in us by the Holy Spirit. This God is giving us all this. We can trust Him for this. Okay, I guess I can forgive my enemy, because God is overseeing all this.

I’m not just doing a naked act of will stoically, but it’s the obedience of faith, or it’s obeying a command, an imperative, because I’m trusting in the indicative of grace that tells me and reminds me, again and again, which I need to be, of who this God is.

And I can tell the truth because I’m trusting God to oversee this. I can do what is good and right. Because it is good and right. Because I know God knows more than I do. And He wants the best for me. He’s not just making up rules and saying, do it just to prove yourself. He’s saying this is the way, walk in it. It’s the way that leads to life.

Oh, maybe God knows something about life. I don’t know. So, I think I’ll go in that direction. So, it’s really ministry as motivating people on the proper basis so that it frees them to obey, frees them to do, frees them to participate. It frees them to serve others in the way Jesus wants us to and enables us to, otherwise we’re hanging in midair.

And so often I see preachers and things on podcasts and others just barking commands, but they don’t give them anything to go on. There’s no fuel in the tank. And that sets people up, either to just give up or just be stoic and hardened. And that’s not living under the lordship of Christ and all. So I think that would be, and in theological ethics we talk about that motivational framework for why we live the whole of the Christian life in a way that shows who Jesus is as Lord, as Savior, as Redeemer, as the one who loves us and the one who provides for us and gives us that great hope. So maybe some of that would be useful.

[00:24:10] Cara: Absolutely. Because as you say that, and you talk about the role of motivation in the practice of ministry, often that does come up, and how, when we have a theological basis and approach to ethics, how that really transforms or it’s foundational to how we approach how we exist in our ministries and community. And even as you’re talking about that motivation, I can’t help but think that completely transforms even our journey of discipleship, right?

[00:25:02] Gary: Yes, it does. Yeah. It gets down to the bottom. It’s foundational.

[00:25:06] Cara: Yes. Yes. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think that this theological approach is really key in our practices of ministry as leaders. And part of that for us and in GCI is that we have this vision of Healthy Church and healthy leaders that we’re wanting to grow continuously towards health ongoing, again and over towards the healthiest expressions that we can, as God enables us to.

And so, I’m wondering what practical implications or practices does this have for our living out of this vision for the development of healthy leadership and healthy church rhythms in our local congregations?

[00:26:12] Gary: One time I heard a pastor talk about the idea is there’s two elements to the Christian life. One is being a faithful and the other is being a healthy. You want faithful members and leaders who are also growing in health. In some ways, then growing as a disciple and taking time to sort through issues about the nature of the Christian life and therefore the nature of all our relationships, first with God and then with others, those that are near and those that are further away.

But it really depends upon — you can’t really get out ahead, help others get ahead of where you are. God can use us, of course, always uses us more than we think or know, thankfully because He is faithful and maybe that’s one of the places to start: a healthy leader knows that God is more faithful than we are.

He’s not dependent upon us. It’s always, to make it happen, He’s inviting us along to participate in what He’s doing, which is much greater than what we can do. So, we should never kind of collapse and think somehow — and again, sometimes how we get motivated, how we are being motivated, or sometimes we motivate others improperly is we make it sound as if God can’t be any more faithful than we are.

If that’s the case, it’s over. Forget it. We’re done. We’re cooked. We quit. Throw in the towel. No, God is always being more faithful. That’s why we even bothered to be involved in the Christian life, in the Christian community. And if we’re exercising leadership, it all comes out of our growing relationship with God and knowing the fullness of His word, not just little bits and pieces and not taking them out of context. And not laying them on others out of context, like the imperatives apart from the indicatives of grace. This is who God is, so this is why we do this and why we follow this.

Looking deeply into these things — someone God calls to be a little bit out ahead, perhaps just to be ahead just because they have the time to do it, and they have the motivation that God has given them, or they have the available resources. But if there’s going to be any kind of leading in a good and right direction or way, somebody has to have discerned, especially when there’s differences of opinion.

And so here, when we get to the ethical issues, what I find is there’s not enough space, times, and places for people to talk and think about these things, and for some people to get ahead just by thinking and praying and reading and finding the best resources, in this case, those who are also teaching, thinking theologically about how to live the Christian life, do what is good and right and true.

So, somebody has to be out ahead of that, being better prepared, not to boast, but of course to enable others to catch up. So, a healthy leader, first of all, has to be trying to be faithful, that is, trust in the living God and know His word and then sort through things, especially if there’s complications.

And of course, we see this in the election years and things like that. There’s the potential of difference and differences of opinion, and sometimes they can be strong, and sometimes there’s just confusion, or people are afraid to talk to one another.

Usually, God uses someone who’s better prepared, or hopefully better prepared, then to advise people or to route people to the best resources that are available on this topic or that topic because there’s just a lot of pressures, right? Individuals, when we’re talking about doing what is good and right, true, and yes, truly loving, truly it’s not easy to discern, and there’s lots of pressures.

So, we can help one another, but usually when it’s complicated and sometimes, especially it’s sometimes it can be very personal, right? These decisions that are being made can be very personal. And should I tell somebody, my employer, about another fellow employee who is being dishonest, who’s stealing or cheating somehow? These can be, and more personal than that, especially when we get to the sexual issues, super personal.

So that takes a lot of preparation and sometimes it actually takes research. You have to know what’s what. You can’t just hear something somewhere saying, oh, that’s the truth. Yeah. The media, and of course, especially if you go to social media, you can hear a million different things. Who’s going to help us sort it through?

This is what healthy leaders can participate in by putting aside time and effort to get prepared to help others. But it has to start with, not out of panic, certainly not out of pride or arrogance, but a desire of trusting God to be faithful and saying maybe because God is faithful, I can be prepared myself and then enable others to sort through some of these difficult things and maybe to help people not just react to each other, but sort it out.

That would be something that might be relevant here.

[00:33:18] Cara: And that gives us, I think, a lot to think about for our listeners. It gives me a lot to think about, even coming back to reflect on the course materials right after the fact, for myself. And I do encourage our listeners to consider enrolling in this course at the appropriate time next week that it’s offered. Speak with your teams, your church leaders, your ecclesiastical supervisor and consider and explore if this is something that is, in terms of the course at GCS, that is appropriate for you. And if not I would still encourage you, as Dr. Deddo has been suggesting to us, to work alongside your fellow leaders to put aside that time to work together in that preparedness, because I think what we can take away from even just the short time in this episode is that theological ethics matter.

They matter for our day-to-day living as disciples. They matter for our health as leaders, and they matter for our health as a local church and our continued growth in that. And so I encourage you all to continue to press into this, to continue to explore and sort out, alongside one another in community with those who, maybe as Dr. Deddo said, have spent a little bit more time sorting out so that we can come alongside one another in this journey of a theological ethic.

I would ask, as we typically do with GC Podcasts, that we would end in prayer. I want to thank you for taking the time to join us today, Dr. Deddo. This was a very rich conversation. Like I said, you’ve left me, and I’m sure our listeners, with a lot to think about. And so, I would ask, would you be willing to pray for our churches and our pastors and ministry leaders in GCI as they pursue this exploration and embodiment of a theological ethic?

[00:36:05] Gary: Sure. Thanks, Cara. It’s been a pleasure and privilege to be with you all. So, let’s join in prayer for a minute here.

Gracious God, we are so grateful that we know You. We have seen, especially in Jesus Christ, Your goodness, Your truth, Your light. The fact that You are a god of life and that You have come to give us life, and life abundantly, and to not only show us a way to live, but You are the way, as we trust in You. You are the way, the truth, and the life. Lord, where would we be if You hadn’t made Yourself known to us and come to us personally and addressed us as Your children, as son and daughter. Lord, where would we be?

We’re so grateful. We’re so thankful that we have Your word preserved for us. We’re not lost. We’re not just pushed and shoved around by every wind of doctrine, or wind of ethic, or wind of a social political agenda. Lord, we come unto You, and we put our trust in You now, even as we offer ourselves to You — not dead sacrifices, but sacrifices full of the life that You have given us that we might live under Your word, live in the light of Your love and trust in Your goodness and the goodness of Your ways.

I thank You that You’ve provided us with each other throughout GCI and GCS and beyond as resources. Lord, it’s those whose lives You’re working in and among, and Lord, we trust You for being the good shepherd. We’re the dumb sheep. We need Your light. We need Your word. We need to hear Your word through others who know You well and You have prepared.

And yeah, we trust You as our good shepherd that You know how to get through to us, Your dumb sheep. You can correct us, You can guide us, You can lead us, You can protect us. And so, we look to You; we trust You in all these ways. And for all those who are listening to this podcast, we pray for Your presence to be with them, for You to speak through Your word to them and to provide the support and encouragement and to protect them from deceit from being, manipulated by guilt or fear or anxiety.

That Your word would break through, Your presence would be with each one especially if they’re facing challenges right here, right now today, even as they listen. That we may praise You and glorify You and celebrate Your faithfulness that even yields faithfulness. Amen.

[00:39:52] Cara: That’s all we have for today. So, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

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Thanks for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.

Rick Shallenberger—Year C Epiphany 4-7

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

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Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ centered and Trinitarian view.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Rick Shallenberger. Rick has been in ministry for more than 40 years. He’s been a teacher, a preacher, a ministry leader, a writer, and get this, he’s about to retire in January. And we’re so excited for him. It’ll be so fun seeing God unveil how he’s at work in his life, in the work of his family, in the form of ministry.

Rick, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time joining us, we’d love to know a little bit about you, your story, your backstory, and how you’re joining with Jesus in his ministry.

[00:01:27] Rick: Anthony, thanks so much for having me on. We’ve had a good friendship for years and I’ve watched, or I should say, listened to your podcast and have enjoyed it. And so, it’s just a thrill to be a part of it.

The backstory — I could go for hours, but this is podcast, and we can’t. So, I’m just going to share that I grew up in a legalistic fundamentalist cult that formed much of my life until I encountered Jesus and who, I would say, is still in the process of transforming me.

I’ve been blessed to be an integral part of bringing my denomination from legalism to grace. In fact, I was asked one time why I stayed with it and my answer was, I believed God asked me to be part of the solution. So, if I were to summarize my spiritual journey, I would say I went from cult to Christian, and from judgment to Jesus. I use that phraseology because I really think I might write a book on that sometime and that might be the title. But who knows?

I have co-authored a book explaining some of the transformation that my denomination is going through and developing a healthier approach to leadership. It’s called A Giant Step Forward: Toward an Emerging Culture of Liberation.

But you ask me, I’ve had an amazing journey, Anthony, with Jesus. It’s been tragic, and it’s been filled with blessings. I’m the sole survivor of a family of ten. That’s part of the tragic. But, part of the blessings is that my wife, Cheryl, and I have been married for 39 years. And we have three children and four grandchildren with the promise that more grandchildren will be coming in the future.

[00:03:10] Anthony: You’re going to hold them to it, aren’t you?

[00:03:12] Rick: I am. I am definitely going to hold them to it.

Professionally, I’ve been writing and editing for more than 30 years. I currently serve as a regional director for pastors and ministry leaders in the north central part of the U.S., as well as I’m ending my role as publications editor and assistant to the president of our denomination.

As Anthony mentioned, I’m retiring in January. And …

[00:03:37] Anthony: … we should have had some music in the background. Celebration music.

[00:03:40] Rick: Yeah, I know. Exactly right. I’m really excited to see where Jesus is going to lead me in the future and what any future ministry might look like. I have lots of plans, Anthony, but always with the caveat, not my will, but Yours be done.

[00:03:55] Anthony: Yeah. And Rick’s been working a lot of those years for Grace Communion International, which is the sponsor of this podcast. And we love you, brother. It’s been exciting to see what the Lord by the Spirit has been doing in your life and excited to see what’s ahead. It’s just a joy, even to reflect back on what has sometimes been, as you labeled it, tragic.

And it made me think of a term I heard from a Christian author. She said, life can be brutaliful. Brutal and yet beautiful at the same time, and it’s all held together in the person of Jesus Christ. Hallelujah.

And Rick, as we’re having this podcast now, we’re in the season after Epiphany, some call it Epiphany tide on the liturgical calendar.

And I’m just curious for those that may be fairly new to the calendar and its usage, what significance does this season hold for you and what might followers of Jesus consider about this season?

[00:04:49] Rick: That’s a good question. I believe that in our enthusiasm for Christmas and in our preparation for the season of Lent or Easter preparation (as our denomination likes to refer to it), Epiphany often gets overlooked.

And I believe that’s a mistake. I believe that we can be in danger of missing out on what the season is all about. I like the way Bobby Gross, author of Living the Christian Year, described Epiphany. He called Epiphany the season of enlightenment. And he pointed out that the common theme is manifestation. And he said, “What has largely been hidden is made more widely known.”

And I like that phrase because in my opinion, Epiphany is a season for seeing more of Christ’s glory, basically focusing on his life and mission. I liken it to the Christmas song, “Go Tell It on the Mountain.” It’s almost hey, you’ve seen the light, now go and tell others about it or about Him.

And I think the two important events that frame Epiphany, and one of them we do tend to focus on a lot is Jesus’ baptism. And the other is the Transfiguration. But think of this, Anthony, in His baptism the heavens open, the voice speaks, and the Spirit descends. And in the Transfiguration the light dazzles, the prophets appear, and the voice calls out from the clouds.

These are epiphanies. And that’s why I love the season, because it’s helping us see that Jesus is the light.

[00:06:19] Anthony: He is the light. And I as you were talking, I was thinking about, as you mentioned, Transfiguration, just that whole encounter with Jesus and his three friends and the true prophets of old on the Mount of Transfiguration.

And what a dazzling display of the glory of God being made manifest for just a brief moment on that mountain, to the point where his friends, the disciples didn’t know what to do with it. Let’s build a tent. Let’s just stay up here. But we get those glimpses.

But you just know you’re drawn to it. Your gaze is upon it. It’s mesmerizing, and it leaves us going, we want more, please. Lord Jesus, come!

[00:07:10] Rick: I love the fact that we use the term epiphany too. It’s like, oh, I didn’t understand that; I’ve had an Epiphany.

I like that because it helps us to say, hey, there are things you don’t understand that you now understand. And when you put that in the light of who Jesus is and who we are in Him, man, we want more and more epiphanies.

[00:07:22] Anthony: That’s right. And it’s a common phrase we have, Rick, is an “aha moment,” and Epiphany is a season of “aha’s.” But it’s also a season of “uh oh’s,” which is an Epiphany.

Like when we see things in our life that haven’t been conformed to Christ, we’re like, uh, oh, Lord come! And as you had already said, you’re still being transformed, as we all are, by the Spirit. And that’s a good thing. It can be painful to see it sometimes.

[00:07:50] Rick: I like that. “Uh, oh.” That’s a really good way to look at things.

[00:07:54] Anthony: I have a lot of “uh oh’s” in my life, Rick. So, it’s always fresh on my mind.

[00:08:07] Rick: Oh no, my brother no, don’t tell me that.

[00:08:11] Anthony: Brother, let’s do this. We’re here to talk about the lectionary text, and our first pericope of the month is 1 Corinthians 13:1-13. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fourth Sunday after Epiphany, February 2, and it reads,

If I speak in the tongues of humans and of angels but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. ² And if I have prophetic powers and understand all mysteries and all knowledge and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. ³ If I give away all my possessions and if I hand over my body so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. ⁴ Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant ⁵ or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable; it keeps no record of wrongs; ⁶ it does not rejoice in wrongdoing but rejoices in the truth. ⁷ It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. ⁸ Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. ⁹ For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part, ¹⁰ but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. ¹¹ When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. ¹² For now we see only a reflection, as in a mirror, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. ¹³ And now faith, hope, and love remain, these three, and the greatest of these is love.

So, Rick, there seems to be a lot of noisy gonging and clanging going on these days, too often from Christians. In what ways do we need to be conformed to Christ so that when we’re speaking, we’re only speaking in love.

[00:10:16] Rick: That’s a powerful question. This passage I’ve used in many different ways.

Often, obviously I use it in weddings, the middle section of it, but this passage is really about God and who He is, but it’s also — and I love this about the Scriptures. They often have much more meaning than one particular focus, and we can get so much out of it. But you’re right, Anthony. We hear a lot of gonging and clanging from Christians.

And unfortunately, we hear a lot of it during the election process, gonging and clanging on both sides. And it’s interesting because we see, unfortunately, we see Christians on both sides of almost every issue. I shouldn’t say unfortunately, because it’s probably fortunate that we do, because it reveals to us that Jesus came to save all.

It doesn’t matter what issue we’re facing in society and what side Christians find themselves on — and we find ourselves on different sides because of our different backstories and our environments and so many other different factors. But it does point out to us that Jesus came to save all Republicans, Democrats, and dependents, Jews, Muslims, atheists, Jews, Gentiles, males, females, slaves and free!

The gospel is good news for all, but it seems we haven’t changed much from the early church who believed everyone must believe and act just like we do. So, we frequently fall in the area of loving others.

And the love that Paul is referring to, Anthony, is, as you’ve referred to, is charity. That’s the word a lot of translators use. But it comes from the Greek word agape. And agape is not referring to charity in the sense of giving a donation somewhere. Sure. But agape is referring to love in its fullest and most extensive meaning — true love to God and true love to man.

And as I read this, I can’t help but think that Paul might be referring to what’s known as the Two Great Commandments. “Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love your neighbors yourself.” And I wouldn’t disagree with that, but I also believe that he’s referring to addressing the real problem here, and that’s not obeying the new commandment Jesus gave to us, which we find in John 13.

I know that’s off the pericope, but it relates, and that is, “I give you a new commandment that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you should also love one another.” And then of course, in 35, he says, “by this, everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” But I think this passage describes what that love is like.

I think Paul is referring to love as a way of life, putting others first. And he knows human nature, and our nature is to love from a distance.

Let me give you some examples. I love people by speaking in tongues and helping them see what it means to be in close connection with God. Or I love people by prophesying to them, giving them a special message I believe is from God to them. And of course, not that I’d put my own thoughts in that prophetic message, of course. Or I might give away all my possessions and people can see how sacrificial I am.

And these things are not wrong. But Anthony, they don’t include loving others as Jesus loves me or you. In other words, they don’t include pointing them to the One who loves them first. I guess I’d say if love doesn’t include building relationship, then it’s nothing more than a loud cymbal that might make you jump. But it doesn’t really help in your personal journey with Jesus. Does that make sense?

[00:13:45] Anthony: It does. It does. I’ve long believed Rick that one of the best ways we can express our love to God is by loving our neighbor. It’s loving the other people in our lives. And I came across a quote from George McDonald, one of my favorite authors, and he said, “We are made for love, not for self. Our neighbor is our refuge; self is our demon foe.”

And that can seem really like an in-your-face quote, but there’s something to that because we often take care of ourselves, don’t we? We put ourselves first, but the way that our love for God gets expressed best is by loving those people around us, including them in relationship.

[00:14:29] Rick: As you say that, I’m thinking all the self-help books of the 80s and 90s and the “me movements” and all the pain in relationships you see when you start to focus on the self. It’s all about me, it’s about my happiness, and it’s about what I want and what gives me peace.

And if we aren’t loving others as you said, then — and as John says in, I think it’s his second or third letter — then we aren’t loving God because they are together. One leads to the other, and we cannot say we love God if we don’t love others. And if we’re always putting the self or are focused on the self, then it’s easy to see all kinds of ways and reasons not to love other people because I’ve got to take care of myself and I’ve got to get right with God and I’ve got to find out who I am.

And if that’s at your expense, too bad.

[00:15:29] Anthony: Yeah. I’m thinking of just imagery of a lake that gets dammed up or a body of water, a small body of water that gets dammed up and how water is meant to flow out. And when it’s dammed up, bacteria can set up. It’s not healthy for the fish life in that area.

It’s meant to flow out of us to others. And just thinking of George McDonald again, and I’m just going to loosely paraphrase what I remember him saying: our true belief is what we live by. It’s not what we think; it’s what we do that expresses the true theology of our soul. And so, to say that God loves us and then we don’t love others, we don’t get it. To have received God’s grace and then not be gracious to other others is not to understand grace.

So, it has to get expressed out to others. And so, let’s think more about that. Let’s get personal about it. I’m going to ask you to testify how you, Rick Shallenberger, have experienced God’s goodness made manifest in the church. How have you experienced the kind of love talked about in this passage in and through the church and what impact did it have on your life?

[00:16:45] Rick: You told me we only had an hour.

[00:16:50] Anthony: And I’m going to stick to it, buddy.

[00:16:52] Rick: I grew up in a cult of legalism, so my behavior was constantly being judged, and that wasn’t just a perception that was a reality. And it made me feel “less than” in many ways. So, the first thing I had to learn was the love that God was displaying toward me and how I can then express that love toward others.

So, I’ll never forget the first Promise Keepers event I attended. You know here I was in a legalistic group, and I believe that I had a special relationship with God and not a lot of other groups did. And I went in this hall or stadium, and I saw thousands of men from every denomination, worshiping and praying together, and that really shook me in a very good way.

But I also attended with three pastors who took the opportunity during that weekend to really speak life into me. And they pointed out the gifts that God had given to me. They talked about how God was calling me to pastoral ministry. They assured me that they would walk beside me in that ministry and be there for me if I took on the role of a pastor.

And I did. I began my pastoral ministry just a few months later. And those three men spoke into my life for years until all three of them have had their spiritual homecoming. But they helped me understand who Jesus is, who Jesus was in me and who Jesus was in others. And that’s what helped me to form what I call this ministry of sharing God’s love and life with others.

So, what they did was they entered my world, and they walked with me. Just as I quoted from John 13:34, they walked with me. They were constantly giving me encouragement affirmation guidance and even correction They loved me the way Jesus loved me. I’ll never forget them, and I’ve tried really hard to pattern my life after their example.

So, I understand when Paul said to Timothy, “Follow me as I follow Christ.” I think that’s a really good phrase, and these men did that. I followed them as they followed Christ, and it’s helped me form the way I do ministry.

[00:19:09] Anthony: Thank God for those three men.

You know as we’re recording this, Rick, we’re in the season of Advent (though the passages we’re looking at are post Epiphany). And in the season of Advent, we often proclaim the gospel found in Luke 1. It’s often referred to as Mary’s Magnificat where she encounters her cousin Elizabeth in her home. And Mary had not been telling anyone that she was pregnant, with child, and what the angel had told her. But as soon as she walks in, there is this recognition by Elizabeth and the child within her.

And she affirms Mary. “You are with child. And that child is blessed, and I’m just amazed that you came to see me.” (paraphrased) and Mary hadn’t told her that. But it’s like those three men speaking into your life, affirming and confirming what the Lord is doing by the Spirit and having others recognize that, to have the observation of the Spirit, to see it. It’s really powerful.

So, I appreciate you sharing that story.

[00:20:10] Rick: And Anthony, one of the things that just struck me as you were telling that story, and I think I read this recently. It’s fascinating that the very first being to worship and leap in joy for Jesus was a fetus.

Isn’t that amazing? That’s how powerful God is. That the something in that fetus just experienced the joy and made it leap in Elizabeth’s womb. I find that just fascinating

[00:20:38] Anthony: It is fascinating! Rocks can cry out and fetuses can proclaim the truth. Hallelujah. Praise god.

Let’s transition to our second pericope of the month. It is 1 Corinthians 15:1-11. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Fifth Sunday after Epiphany on February 9. Rick, would you read it for us, please?

[00:21:02] Rick: I’d be happy to.

Now I want you to understand, brothers and sisters, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received, in which also you stand, ² through which also you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you—unless you have come to believe in vain. ³ For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures ⁴ and that he was buried and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures ⁵ and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ⁶ Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. ⁷ Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. ⁸ Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. ⁹ For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. ¹⁰ But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I but the grace of God that is with me. ¹¹ Whether then it was I or they, so we proclaim and so you believed.

[00:22:23] Anthony: ” Though it was not I, but the grace of God.” Hallelujah.

Rick, I think to the detriment of formation and discipleship as people of God, too often salvation has been reduced down to a single decision of faith. You might call it a “one and done” salvation. But Paul refers to being saved in verse 2; it’s an ongoing reality and act of God. Would you tell us more about this ongoing salvation?

[00:22:45] Rick: Yeah, it’s really an interesting, I think, a question a lot of people ask, Anthony, is, am I saved or am I being saved?

And the answer is yes. There, we’ll just stop there.

[00:22:56] Anthony: Yes.

[00:22:57] Rick: Or would you like more? Because see, it’s both in the context here. Paul is talking about the resurrection. And he shares details about the resurrection here that nowhere else you find in Scripture. He talks about how many people saw Jesus after His resurrection.

He shares a sequence we hadn’t seen in previous texts. He emphasizes that the truth of the resurrection is the truth upon which you stand, and upon which rests your salvation. Now salvation was a big topic to Paul, and he refers to it in most of his books. And to believers in Ephesus, he said, for it is by grace you have been saved through faith.

And of course, there is past tense. This is not from yourselves. It is a gift of God, not by work, so that no one can boast. This is referred to as justification. In other words, God pronounces a person to be righteous. You remember in the letter to the Corinthians, he says, we hate, God gives us the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

So, it’s a gift. It’s a gift to all who believe in the one who gives the gift. And I say that because you can’t believe in the gift if you don’t believe in the gift giver. So, God gives us Christ’s righteousness. That’s a free gift. That’s the one and done salvation that some people refer to. But let’s be honest.

Though God declares us righteous, we still sin. At least I do. And I think I heard you say earlier that you struggle as well.

[00:24:29] Anthony: But I think that’s being edited out. So, I’m not sure that I said it. No, I did.

[00:24:36] Rick: Yeah, because I know you.

So, in other words, Anthony, we still have thoughts that we shouldn’t have and we don’t want to have. We still do things we should not do and we don’t want to do. Paul talked about the struggle in Romans 7. We still struggle with the power of sin. And here’s the key: in our relationship with Jesus, we are being saved. Get that! We are being saved from the power of sin. This is referred to as sanctification.

In other words, sin tries to control us, but it can’t. Because we now don’t belong to sin, we belong to God who has declared us righteous. And sin can’t control us because of the resurrection, because Jesus rose from the grave and destroyed all that was holding us back. Paul emphasizes in this passage that he works harder than most, but that’s not what saves him.

We are saved because Jesus rose from the grave, and this is of first importance.

[00:25:33] Anthony: And it’s not only a first importance, which it is, but it seems like Paul repeatedly comes back to the death, resurrection, and the risen and ascended Christ. Maybe you’ve already been touching on this, but maybe we can dive in a little further.

If he’s already told us this, why does he repeatedly come back to the reality of the death, resurrection, and risen Christ?

[00:25:58] Rick: Anthony, if you’re like me and I think you are, you have a lot of important things in your life, right? And it’s quite easy to let those important things become even more important and sometimes even more important than anything else.

And when we do that, these important things become our primary focus, and our lives can revolve around these important things. And sometimes we believe that these important things might be important things that we do, and that those are the things that gain us favor with God, salvation even. And Paul is reminding us of that. In other passages, he talks about how he is more qualified than anyone else to be a follower of God, but that doesn’t qualify him.

His heritage, his actions don’t qualify him. What qualifies him is God’s grace. And he continually points this out because we often fall into the trap that we believe it’s something we do and something we need to do better. And Paul is continuing to remind us that Christ is a first importance.

There’s nothing more important than knowing the power of His death, resurrection, and return. Because let’s think about it. Without His death we would not have forgiveness, right? Without His resurrection, we wouldn’t have hope in our own resurrection or a future. Without His return, we wouldn’t have hope that our resurrection leads to living in kingdom life with Him as king and entering that future time of no more pain, tears, sorrow, and death.

So, I am a person that needs constant reminders of what is of first importance to keep me grounded. That keeps me looking to the Father, Son, and the Spirit rather than looking to myself.

[00:27:46] Anthony: Yeah. Amen. And amen to that. And you were talking about forgiveness and our own resurrection and the return of Christ. I want to remind our listeners when we talk about return, we’re not talking about the absence of God. God is with us. Jesus made the promise that He is with us, but we are longing for that reappearance, that second coming, the Parousia in Scripture that will bring fulfillment of all things.

And Epiphany is one of those times where we really recognize we’re living in between the times, longing for the culmination of the kingdom. And one of the things that we see in God’s resurrection in Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of sins, we still face the consequences of those sins, right?

Even though it does not hold us down, and it is not our future, and sin has no future in God’s kingdom, we aren’t saved from feeling the pain. The pain of the consequences when I do something wrong, when I harm a friend, I feel that. I recognize it as sin. And I think that’s good in terms of our being conformed to the image of Christ.

But thanks be to God that we can keep going back to His death and resurrection, which would reveal so powerfully God’s love made manifest in Jesus. Thank you.

[00:29:11] Rick: I agree, Anthony. I think one of the things that we need to remind ourselves is that every single day that we wake up is a new day with God, and He has cleansed us of the day before.

And as you said, that doesn’t mean that we don’t need to go back and repair some relationships, because we do things that hurt other people. But in Christ, we are new, we are renewed every day. And that is the proof that He lives in us, as you were talking about. And there is a misnomer that, God is off somewhere, and we all await His return, and then everything will change.

Everything will change, but the truth is, He is changing us now, by living in us through the Spirit. Honestly, that is what enables us to love people like He loves us. We can’t do that on our own. That is what enables us to see that we need to ask forgiveness when we hurt somebody. Those are the things that help us to realize relationships are important and I’ve hurt this relationship.

I need to go back and fix this. It’s Christ’s love in us that compels us in that way. And yeah, I really appreciate the fact that you pointed out that it’s not just His return, He is here now living in us, but we look forward to that return with the fullness of the kingdom.

[00:30:31] Anthony: Let’s pivot to our next pericope of the month. It’s first Corinthians 15:12-20. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Sixth Sunday after Epiphany on February 16.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? ¹³ If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised, ¹⁴ and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is in vain and your faith is in vain. ¹⁵ We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ—whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. ¹⁶ For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. ¹⁷ If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile, and you are still in your sins. ¹⁸ Then those also who have died in Christ have perished. ¹⁹ If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. ²⁰ But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died.

So, Rick, if you’re proclaiming this text to your congregation what’s going to be the focus of that proclamation?

[00:31:51] Rick: The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the foundation of our hope in God’s kingdom. It’s the foundation of our hope in the future, our internal life.

It’s the very basis of our faith in the resurrection of all — I’m going to say that over. It is the very basis of our faith in the resurrection of all to live with Father, Son, and Spirit for eternity. Something else, obviously we cannot grasp. So, I would preach this passage with the theme that Jesus and His resurrection is the center of the center.

It is the center of life. It is the center of the universe. It is the center of our reason for being created. It is the center of our identity as the beloved of God, the center of our hope, the center of our future. If Jesus was not raised, we would have nothing. Life would simply be about the here and now. And that’s not a lot.

Now for some that doesn’t sound so bad, after all; they see health, wealth, comfort and peace as the main goals in life. And Anthony, I have atheist friends who seem content that this life is all there is. But I see a sadness in them as they age, or maybe a longing for something more.

And when I talk about having health, wealth, comfort, and peace, it’s relative, isn’t it?

[00:33:10] Anthony: Sure.

[00:33:11] Rick: So much depends on where you live, what culture, government you live under. There are so many around the world who have poor health, who live in poverty and in adverse conditions, who live in hostile environments.

Without Jesus, what is their purpose? What is their hope? Without the hope of the resurrection, many who are born in misery, live in misery, and die in misery and you have to ask is this all there is to life? Maybe in the physical realm for some but God has a blessed plan for all in Christ He is the center of the center for every man woman and child alive, whether they realize it or not.

And I think that’s why Paul said preaching Christ and His resurrection is of first importance because it is the center of our faith.

[00:33:54] Anthony: I think it’s one of the reasons why the poor, the destitute, the oppressed, the marginalized are often the first to receive the gospel with glad tidings, gladness, because they have experienced all that is wrong in the here and now, all that is broken, all that is dark, and they’re crying out for the light. And so, we have so much to learn from people that receive the gospel — to use your language — of first importance. There’s something powerful going on there.

[00:34:26] Rick: So, I was in Nepal, and I was with a group of people. We were going to quote take Jesus to this group of people And these are the poorest of the poor in Nepal. They are brick makers. They make bricks out of mud and then they make their shelters that they live in out of broken bricks. And the shelters are usually about three feet, maybe three and a half feet high.

And they basically use them to sleep, and they do all their cooking or whatnot outside. Anyway, we’re walking to them, and we get to the crest of a hill. And I hear this singing, and I come down to the hill, and I see this group of people, the poorest of the poor, making a shelter out of broken bricks and singing in joy because they had already seen that Jesus loves them.

And it just changed me, Anthony; it helped me to realize, just like you said, that even the marginalized, everybody who has or is going through all kinds of different trials and lives you and I would feel uncomfortable with, when the presence of the Lord is there, there’s joy. And they see that there’s an importance.

There’s something to live for. And I don’t know if that helps. But I just, while you’re talking, I just thought of that story and how that just really changed me and moved me.

[00:35:48] Anthony: It does help. And I think one of the things we learn — I’ve had the privilege just as you have to visit other cultures — we are so blessed with comforts in the United States in ways that we don’t even recognize. And I appreciated what you said about quote unquote, we’re taking Jesus to other people, realizing how wrong that is, how it lacks humility. Because Jesus is already there. And I think one of the transformational things for me that the Lord had taught me is to realize that when we think of the least of these, I’ve got to think of myself.

I’m the least of these. And when I encounter others from a different culture, a different way of being. That I’m there to learn. I’m there to understand God’s at work. What are you up to here, Lord? Teach me. And just like you did, it taught you something. It revealed something to you that you needed to see.

Thanks be to God for that, that He’s always revealing Himself.

[00:36:54] Rick: Anthony, anybody without Christ is among the least of these, right? And even as Paul said, I am the least of the apostles, we have to have that spirit of humility that we realize that without Christ, I don’t care how big my house is and how much I have or how little my house is and how little I have, when I have Christ, I literally have everything I need.

And He is a first importance; I guess we’ll just keep going back to that.

[00:37:24] Anthony: Hallelujah.

Let’s transition to our final pericope of the month. It is Luke 6:27-38. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Seventh Sunday after Epiphany on February the 23. Rick, read it for us, please.

[00:37:45] Rick: Absolutely.

“But I say to you who are listening: Love your enemies; do good to those who hate you; ²⁸ bless those who curse you; pray for those who mistreat you. ²⁹ If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. ³⁰ Give to everyone who asks of you, and if anyone takes away what is yours, do not ask for it back again. ³¹ Do to others as you would have them do to you. ³² “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. ³³ If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. ³⁴ If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive payment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. ³⁵ Instead, love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. ³⁶ Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. ³⁷ “Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven; ³⁸ give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap, for the measure you give will be the measure you get back.”

[00:39:14] Anthony: So, Jesus told us to tolerate our enemies. No.

[00:39:22] Rick: Yeah. It’s easier that way.

[00:39:25] Anthony: He told us to love our enemies. He told us to love them, and He did so for the sake of those who are listening. So, the question Rick is, are we listening? So, what does this text reveal to us about the God found in Jesus Christ? Because it’s telling us something about him.

[00:39:43] Rick: Yes. Yes.

Well, Anthony, I believe this is just one more passage that shows God’s character. Because this is exactly what Jesus did. He loved His enemies. He did good to those who hated Him. He blessed those who cursed Him. He prayed for all. He is love and He responds to His enemies with love, and He asks us to love as He loves.

And as you said very well, or the question you asked was very appropriate, are we listening? As my wife sometimes tells me, Rick, you can hear well, but I’m not sure you are listening.

[00:40:17] Anthony: Oh, go on, Cheryl, keep speaking.

[00:40:19] Rick: Yeah, I know. Yeah. That’s when I realized the Holy Spirit is speaking through her.

But I think we do the same thing, Anthony, as these believers do when we read these verses. How often have I just read the words because I’m trying to get my Bible study in or get a passage through or I’m thinking I want it. I want to spend so much time in the Scriptures, but I’ve got this other thing to do.

And so, I’m just reading the words and the same thing is, am I hearing the message of the words? Are we listening to what Jesus is telling us? He’s telling us to love others as He loves us. It’s the same message He gives time and again. And what the disciples didn’t seem to understand, and what it seems most of us fail to understand, is that Jesus is reminding us that in Him there is no us and them.

For the disciples, it was Jew and Gentile. And even that wasn’t as simple because there were some Jews they didn’t like. And certainly, anybody who was not a Jew was a Gentile that didn’t like them. There was a big us and them, and how many times do we do an us and them? In Jesus, there’s only us.

We cannot win someone over and show them love if we view them as the enemy or as “less than” in any way. Anthony, I realize looking at my own life it often goes against my nature to love someone who seems to be against me, right? Or who believes something different than me. Or who has different opinions than me and that was really evident in the last several years in our political landscape.

It’s just gotten more and more volatile, and it seems we have this proclivity to emphasize differences more than things that we agree on. And we make anyone of a different viewpoint an enemy. And God says, they’re not your enemy because they’re my children. They’re my beloved. And the God we find in Jesus has only one enemy, and that’s the devil who made himself an enemy.

But Jesus came to save a world filled with different people, different beliefs, different cultures, different social statuses, different races. And He’s emphasizing that in Him, there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female, only beloved children, who He came to rescue and reconcile to the Father.

As you ask, what does this tell us about the God found in Jesus? I believe He wants us to get past all the petty differences and start treating others with love and respect. I believe He wants us to love others and to care about others and to walk with others and to enter their world and share their place.

Anthony, you’re the one that has talked a lot about place-sharing, and I think that’s what we’re talking about here is walking alongside someone. In other words, to treat all self-proclaimed enemies as brothers.

[00:43:10] Anthony: Yeah, I think, Rick, that love, by its definition, moves toward the other. It’s not passive. It’s intentional.

And though I was trying to be humorous a little bit by saying tolerate, I think that’s where a lot of Christians land. I just won’t engage the other people that I disagree with or I’m opposed to. And they think that’s enough, but that’s not. God moved toward us in Jesus Christ. He pitched His tent and set up residency on earth with us.

Everybody who was against Him and enemies to Him who had enmity toward God, He moved toward us. And this is the danger that I see in our current societal landscape that we just look for echo chambers. We try to find the affinity groups where people agree. And we just talk to them, and we’ll have nothing to do with others who have a different viewpoint.

And I think it’s very, it’s dangerous and it’s not healthy. It’s not healthy.

[00:44:11] Rick: No, you’re absolutely right. And the other thing it does, we have this concept of loving, I can love certain people face-to-face and the others I love from a distance. And that is a misnomer. Jesus doesn’t love anybody from a distance.

And this talk about this concept of place-sharing, walking with somebody, loving them. How in the world can we be disciples of Jesus, helping them to see His love and His life if we are not interacting in a very personal and intimate way?

[00:44:42] Anthony: Yeah. Some people have this idea that God cannot look upon sin. Think about what you’re saying. If Jesus, who is God, could not look upon sin, He would never have eaten or dined with anybody else. Every meal He shared with sinners, looking right upon them. And sometimes Christians get this idea: they’re doing this or that, so I can’t engage.

No. Jesus went into it without becoming it. He went right into the heart of it with His love and compassion for others. And that’s what wins the day. Love is the only change agent that will really help people see the goodness of God revealed in Jesus.

[00:45:25] Rick: If Jesus couldn’t dwell with sinners, He would have never come.

[00:45:28] Anthony: That’s right. That’s right. All right. So, we’re winding down, we’re in the gun lap here, so to speak. And I find myself, Rick, enchanted by the generosity that we see in the triune God. God is the merciful one. God is the one who forgives. God doesn’t condemn, but rather gives grace and measures that are overflowing.

So, as we draw to a close, tell us more about this generosity we see in the Trinity and our participation in that divine reality.

[00:45:59] Rick: Yeah. Wow. Again, I will do this in less than an hour. Look, the Father sent the Son, and the Son came to rescue us and reconcile us to the Father. And the Son sent the Spirit so that He could live in us through the Spirit who always points to the Son who loves the Father.

So, there’s a circle there. Do you see how I did that? Father, Son, and Spirit live in relationship of mutual love. admiration and respect for each other and who They are as God and the most amazing and beautiful part of this truth, They have invited us to share in the relationship that They share.

In other words, when you pray to Father, Son, and Spirit, you are in the midst of that circle of trust, love, mutual admiration, respect. When you walk every day, you are walking in that circle of trust, love, mutual admiration, and respect because Christ lives in you. He wants you to experience the relationship the way God created it to be.

And further, I would say Father, Son, and Spirit, the beauty and the generosity. They have forgiven us of our sins. They have washed us clean with the blood of Christ. They’ve offered us a way out of our guilt, our shame, our fear, and our doubt. And they have invited us to experience Their love, partly by sharing it with others and the opportunity to live with Them for eternity.

Anthony, you can’t get more generous than that.

[00:47:24] Anthony: And what does it look like? It looks like “a good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, spilling out into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.” God is generous in His mercy and kindness, His grace, His love toward us.

He continues to move toward us. He continues to move toward you, Rick, in and by the Spirit. And we’re just so thankful for you and your experiences and ministry and life that bring you to this moment to share all of that with us. So, God bless you as you embark in this new chapter of your life. We’re excited for you and so appreciate the way that God is working through you to reveal the goodness of God made manifest in Jesus Christ. So, thank you.

And I want to say to our listening audience, because many of you are proclaimers of the gospel, thank you for what you’re doing. And be reminded of this: study prepares the sermon, but it’s prayer that prepares the preacher. So, let’s be praying people before we ever enter into the pulpit. And may we continue to be faithful in proclaiming the gospel good news revealed in Jesus Christ.

I want to thank our team of people that make this podcast possible: Michelle Hartman, Elizabeth Mullins, Reuel Enerio. What a fantastic team of people to work with, to bring this good news to you here today.

And as is our tradition on Gospel Reverberate, we close with prayer. So, would you please just wash us in prayer?

[00:48:53] Rick: Absolutely.

Father, Son, Spirit, wow! What an incredible blessing it is to just come to Your presence and to realize that we are in Your presence at all times. You are the Daddy, the Abba, that we just are so blessed to know and to know that we are known by You. You are the brother and the friend and the Savior, that and so much more. And You are the Comforter and the teacher, and we are just so thrilled to just get a grasp of who You are.

And these passages we went through enable us to understand Your love for us and encourage us how to love others. And I pray that as these passages are preached and they are shared with Your beloved around the world that You open hearts and You open minds for people to see their true identity in You, for people to understand how much that they are loved, and this will compel them to love others and to follow You in whatever way You choose.

And so, I pray Your blessing upon all that preach this, all that listened to this. And I thank You for the opportunity to share these passages. And I pray this in the powerful name of Jesus. Amen.

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