GCI Equipper

For the Sake of Other People

Continuing our focus on Healthy Church, the 2022 theme for Equipper and our GCI media team is “Compelled by Love.” The church of Jesus Christ exists for the sake of other people.

I spent most of my life with an “us and them” point of view. The main “us and them” concerned those who believed in Jesus and those who didn’t believe in Jesus – for simplicity I referred to these two groups as believer and unbeliever. Believers were included; unbelievers were excluded. But my erroneous point of view went beyond that. I also believed in an “us and them” among those who professed belief in Jesus. If you believed what I believed and followed certain commandments, I believed were more important than others, you were among the “us.” If you strayed from what I believed was truth – at least my understanding of truth – you were among the “them.” And we can go further. If you have a different point of view than me – politically, socially, genetically, environmentally – you could still be among the “them,” and not part of “us.” This distorted way of thinking can permeate every area of life. What “us and them” comes to your mind?

Jesus entered an “us and them” world. He was born into a Jewish family who considered all of humanity as Jew or Gentile. You were either one of God’s called (Israelite), or you were “of the world” (Gentile). But it didn’t stop there. The Levitical priesthood believed they were “better than” because they had a special relationship with God. Sadducees and Pharisees thought of themselves as “better than.” Men thought of themselves as better than women. The poor, the diseased, the mentally ill, and slaves were all considered “less than.” This “better than” and “less than” way of thinking still permeates Christianity. Jesus came to turn all of this nonsense on its head. In him there is no “better than” or “less than.” Further, Jesus tore down many of the separations of “us and them.” In many ways in Christ there is only us. When we think missionally, however, we need to think of those who are not yet in Christ – the appropriate use of the term “them.”

The “Us” in Christ

The Incarnation is for all. “For God so loved the world…” When John wrote this, he was making it clear God’s plan was for all. All are included in his love, forgiveness, redemption and reconciliation. Most of us can quote Paul’s words to believers in Galatia that in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. Eugene Peterson translated this in The Message:

In Christ’s family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal. That is, we are all in a common relationship with Jesus Christ. Also, since you are Christ’s family, then you are Abraham’s famous “descendant,” heirs according to the covenant promises. (Galatians 3:28 MSG)

Oh, if we only believed this. Oh, if we only practiced this in our lives and treated all in Christ’s family as equals – without judging them by anything outside of who Christ is. Imagine what we could do as the body of Christ if we believed we were all part of the one body, all forgiven the same, all loved the same, all redeemed and reconciled, all unified in our purpose to share his love and life to others. What if we truly believed the truth of who we are? And what if we believed this truth is also for all outside the body?

What if it were true that Christ did break down all man-made divisions and made us one in his plan of salvation? The “one” refers to Jesus’ inclusive love for all, his forgiveness for all, his baptism for all, his death and resurrection for all. When we understand Jesus is for all, would this truth change the way we look at those who don’t yet know him? Absolutely. Let’s ask another question: What if we truly believed that we are invited to be in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

What if you really believed you are totally forgiven, wholly reconciled, unconditionally loved? In other words, what if you really believed you are who Christ says you are – his beloved – and that he lives in you? Would this truth change you? What if you believed others are totally forgiven, wholly reconciled, unconditionally loved? Would it change how you look at them? Again, absolutely. Knowing who Christ is and who we are in him changes everything. Not only does it make us confident in who we are – our true identity – but it motivates us to help others understand who they are – their true identity.

The “Them” in Christ

Understanding who Christ is, who we are in Christ, and who others are in Christ, compels us to reach out in love and help others in their journey from not yet believer to believer. (Keeping in mind always that we are called to participate with Jesus in what he is doing. We don’t save people—only Jesus saves. He is the one who calls and changes others. Our job is to love, and in that love to share his love and life with others.)

Here’s what Paul says about Christ’s love in us:

For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. (2 Corinthians 5:14-16)

Notice the truth here. We are convinced that Christ died for all – no exceptions – and therefore all have already joined Jesus in his death – again, no exceptions. He died for all; therefore, we no longer view others as outside the plan of salvation and the unconditional love of Father, Son and Spirit.

Paul is reminding us to view others as those whom Christ loves. Just because they don’t know Christ does not mean Christ does not know them. This is where mission comes into play. Christ’s love compels us to join him in what he is doing – to participate in his work of salvation. We do this by telling those God brings into our lives that Jesus loves all of us just as we are. Everything he did, he did for all of us. He came for us, he died for us, he rose from the grave and ascended for us, and he will return for us. This “us” includes all who are not yet believers – those who don’t yet know him. Hallelujah, praise God!

One of the main purposes of the church is to help all come to understand the truth of who we really are – those whom Jesus loves, forgave and died for. It is to help all understand Jesus redeemed us, was resurrected for us, and is reconciling us to our Father. Once we grasp the truth, we are compelled to share that truth so that others can grasp the truth, so they can share the truth… you get the picture. The church exists for the sake of other people – to help all understand who Jesus is and who we are in him. It is to help not yet believers become believers. Mission is about helping “them” become “us.”

Before we believed, we lived in the lie that we were not loved, not forgiven, not included. We may have believed that Jesus died for others and not for us. The truth (Jesus) sets us free to live in the reality of who we are in him. This is good news we want to share with all. That’s why we have set the theme, “Compelled by love.” This is why the church exists – for the sake of all others.

 

Always amazed by the truth,
Rick Shallenberger

On Mission with God

 The Love Avenue of a Healthy Church is going and participating with God.

By Heber Ticas, Superintendent of Latin America

The Love Avenue of a healthy church is perhaps the most challenging of the three ministry avenues. In the Love Avenue, a healthy congregation will create spaces for missional participation as a corporate body. Significant holistic health as a body cannot be attained without the proper understanding and calling of the church to participate in the mission of God in the world. It is often said, and rightly so, that missional participation apart from Jesus is not possible. It is by the Spirit that the church joins Jesus in his missional activity in our neighborhoods and communities. The participation part of the equation is what the Love Avenue is seeking to address. As we undertake the task of pursuing greater health and build out our Love Avenue expressions, I urge you to consider the following.

The Mission of God Informs the Mission of The Church

God has always been on mission in the world, expressed through the calling and sending of men and women. His activity is evidenced through the sending of the patriarchs, prophets, kings, and eventually his Son, Jesus. The incarnation of Christ is key to understanding the nature of mission in the Christian church. Jesus not only commanded the church to partake in his mission, but also modeled what missional participation can look like. The sending nature of the church cannot be denied. Through the Great Commission, Jesus himself commands and empowers the church to go and informs us on how we are to go. The Johannine account of the commission sheds greater light for the church. We see it when he first appears to his disciples after his resurrection.

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” (John 20:21-22)

I see three important elements in this account.

  • Missional Sentness: The church is a sent body. This is evidenced by the ministry of the apostles and by the ministry of the early church. The incarnate Jesus intimates the sending nature of the mission of God by pointing out his mission from the Father. In Matthew’s account he says, “Go and make disciples of all nations.” The focus is on “make disciples,” but in my estimation, the challenge for us in the Love Avenue is on “go.”
  • Missional Embodiment: The second element that I see present in John’s account of the commission is this incarnational element of the mission. Jesus says, “As the Father has sent me.” He not only proclaimed the good news from the Father, but he also embodied this good news in his everyday rhythms of life. If missional sentness is focused on going, then missional embodiment speaks to how we go and what we do as we go.
  • By the Holy Spirit: The third element of the commission is that neither the apostles nor the church were to go apart from the Spirit. In Matthew’s account, Jesus says, “I will be with you until the end of time.” Both our sentness and the embodiment of the message can be effective only as we are empowered by the Spirit.

I strongly believe that in these passages we have a clear revelation of the identity of the church. Unfortunately, the church does not always recognize her calling as the sent people of God that she is. Engaging in the Love Avenue as a church body is going and participating with Jesus and allowing the mission of God to inform us on how and where we are to go.

Missional Participation in the Church

With a clear understanding of our missional identity and our missional dispositions, a healthy church body strategizes their approach and engagement in their neighborhoods and communities. Because mission flows from the heart of the Father, Son and Spirit, and the Son was sent because the Father loves, a healthy congregation steps into the Love Avenue with the same approach. I believe that it is key for us as a church to reflect on our approach to mission. The Love Avenue affords us the opportunity to discern the call of God for our local body, and to activate the body to participate missionally with Jesus. As we engage in establishing a more robust Love Avenue in our churches, I encourage you to consider the following:

  • We are compelled by love, so all that we do in the Love Avenue is birthed out of a loving heart.
  • The Great Commission cannot be separated from the Great Commandment. We participate in the Great Commission as we are driven by a Great Commandment heart.
  • Pastors, Love Avenue champions and ministry leaders at large have the responsibility to activate the mind, heart, and hands of the body for missional participation in our neighborhoods and communities.
  • Let us make sure that we value the mission of God as a corporate body and that we value the people in our communities.
  • Let’s brainstorm for ways that we can create missional spaces for corporate missional participation.
  • As we build a Love Avenue team, let’s move out into the neighborhood and discern Jesus movements to join in.
  • Let us open our eyes and hearts and ask the Lord to give us a heartache for those who don’t yet know Christ and his love for them.

It is my prayer that as we focus on the Love Avenue this year, the Lord would show us what he is already doing in our communities. I pray that our people have the sensitivity to hear the voice of the Spirit leading us into missional participation with Jesus.

Epiphany: The season of Manifestation

By Bill Hall, National Director of Canada

Coming just after the Christmas season, Epiphany is the next major observance in the Christian calendar. It comes from the Latin word meaning manifestation or shining forth. It is interesting to me that the very term “epiphany” has become a part of our day-to-day language. The Merriam-Webster dictionary states that it means: “a moment in which you suddenly see or understand something in a new or very clear way.”

In his volume of the Pilgrim Year: Epiphany, Canadian Christian artist Steve Bell makes this observation speaking of his series of books based on the liturgical year:

As we continue to chart our course by way of this pilgrim map of the liturgical year, we have seen how Advent reveals the deepest truth of our humanity: how we were created to receive the seed of God and bear it forth for the sake of the world. Likewise, Christmas reveals the humble vulnerability of God condescended in matter and flesh to assume and redeem all that is broken and distant. The season of Epiphany now reveals Christ’s divinity shining forth from his humanity, freeing us from parochial theologies and revealing the scope of salvation too bright for human eyes. Epiphany lifts our eyes from the immediate personal, familial and tribal spheres to demand that we include in our vision “all the ends of the earth’ (Psalm 98:3). (pp. 15-16, Steve Bell, Volume 3, Pilgrim Year: Epiphany, Novalis Press 2018).

In Western churches, the feast of Epiphany falls on the 12th day after Christmas, which is January 6. On this day, the church remembers the story about the Magi who seek out and come to worship the Christ child. This event reveals that God is not just concerned with the people of Israel but involves Gentiles – pagan outsiders – in this earth-shattering event. Including these Eastern visitors in the Christ story teaches us that this newly born Messiah has come for the entire world.

Reflecting on the fact that Epiphany is not just a single festival but rather a season, the second commemoration of Epiphany falls on the first Sunday after January 6. On that day, the baptism of Jesus is recalled. In his baptism we focus on one of the many “for us” events in the Incarnation. That day at the Jordan river, Jesus is baptized “for us” – for the sins of all humanity (past, present and future) – and he connects his humanity with our humanity. The revealing of this Jesus as God’s own son and the descent of the Spirit connects him and us with the Triune God. It is a redemption of the fall, a reconciliation between humanity and God.

The third major day of the season of Epiphany falls on the second Sunday after January 6. It celebrates the wedding feast of Cana. It was at this wedding that Jesus performed his first public miracle. While we may view this event as a sign of God’s generosity, the ancient church saw a connection with the wedding at Cana with the great wedding feast when the church would wed with her heavenly spouse.

Other notable events that reveal the Son of God to us are remembered on the following Sundays leading up to the pre-Easter season.

The last Sunday of Epiphany features the reading of an account of the Transfiguration. This is when we read: “… a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him’” (Matthew 17:5 ESV).

The season begins with the Magi following a star that points them to the one to worship, and it ends with the revelation to three disciples that Jesus is the one true light, and we are to listen to him. What an appropriate ending to this season. What else can we say about this Jesus but that we are to follow and worship him!

The Trinitarian Blessing

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Corinthians 13:13)

By Bob Regazzoli, Pastor, Australia

This scripture listed above is found in Paul’s last letter to the believers in Corinth and is often used as a benediction – the invocation of a blessing upon the congregation at the end of a worship service. Within this one verse we see the life of the Triune God and how our participation in this life is a key to being a healthy church. Gordon Fee, biblical scholar, theologian and Professor Emeritus at Regent College, said:

In many ways this benediction is the most profound theological moment in the Pauline corpus…. As Barth put it with extraordinary insight, “Trinity is the Christian name for God.” Here we begin to glimpse Paul’s understanding of that reality, namely, that to be Christian one must finally understand God in a Trinitarian way.[1]

I see three key take-aways from this verse and I add three correlated questions:

  • The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is always with us, but are we conscious of it?
  • The love of God is who God is, and his unconditional love is always there, never diminishing, but are we mindful of our continually living in his love?
  • The Holy Spirit is in us at all times, enabling us to fellowship with Jesus and the Father in love and unity, but are we aware of his indwelling presence and his guidance and prompting?

The great blessing this verse describes is that we live in the awareness and the ongoing experience of the communion of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This inspires and encourages us in our life of worship, community and mission. We become like what we worship! “At the center of the universe is a relationship…. The center of reality is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”[2] We are included in this most awe-inspiring relationship.

Let’s look at this verse in more detail:

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ

Our Christian life begins with grace, and we never stop living in his grace. We, as sinners, are saved by the grace of God. His grace was personified in the incarnation of Jesus. The Word became flesh and was full of grace and truth. We come to the Father through Jesus. Tom Wright describes grace this way: “Paul can also use the word ‘grace’ to describe not only what God freely and lovingly does for us, but also what he does in us and also through us; …in Jesus grace became human.”[3] We exist by the grace of God. We live by his grace, and we are motivated to good deeds by the grace of God. This glorified body of grace, Jesus, is always with us. As Paul often wrote, our life is “in him.”

The love of God

We are blessed as we live in the love of God. Why do we sometimes think that God doesn’t love us, or doesn’t love us as much as we would like? We grow up living in a world where much of our experience is conditional love, and it is difficult for us to believe at times that God loves us unconditionally – no matter what our lives are like at any given moment. We continue to be reminded of the unconditional love of God, demonstrated through his beloved Son, in coming to this world to die for us. “This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him” (1 John 4:9). Jesus died for us while we were dead in sins, so how can God’s love ever waver because of our failings and sins? God’s love for us is perfect love at all times. God is truly for us.

Fellowship of the Holy Spirit

The Greek word translated “‘fellowship” is koinonia, which is also translated “partnership,” “participation,” “sharing,” and “communion.” We see this emphasis through Paul’s letters to the Corinthians. Koinonia is describing intimate fellowship. The Corinthians were having difficulties in a number of areas of Christian living and in their relationships with one another. There were factions, social divisions, immoral living, doctrinal confusion, abuse of the Lord’s Supper, criticism of the apostle Paul and a lack of generosity. As Gordon Fee explains: “This remarkable grace-benediction is the only one of its kind in the extant Pauline corpus…. It seems more likely than not to have directly resulted from matters in this letter.”[4]

The answer to all the issues the Corinthians were dealing with is contained in this one verse. They needed to continually be aware of the blessing of participating and living in the communion of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is the same “need” we have today – to be continually aware of what it means to participate and live in the communion of the Father, Son and Spirit. In his first epistle to the Corinthians, Paul gives us great insights into the work of the Holy Spirit and experiencing life in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit renews us each day, drawing us closer to God.

Be with you all

This letter was written to the church community, so that the whole community may know they are invited to be drawn into closer fellowship with God. God wants everyone to experience the love and joy of living in communion with him. “The very nature of God, therefore, is to seek out the deepest possible communion and friendship with every last creature on this earth.”[5]

So let’s summarize this benediction. Through the grace of Jesus, we come to know and experience the God who is love, and we enjoy the fellowship of the Triune God through the Holy Spirit. “It is by the Spirit that the Father has eternally loved his Son. And so, by sharing their Spirit with us, the Father and the Son share with us their own life, love and fellowship.”[6] The Trinity is the most intimate loving relationship that can possibly be experienced.

What a magnificent prayer of blessing Paul gave the Corinthian church and for all Christians with this beautiful conclusion. “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” Amen!

[1] Gordon D. Fee, God’s Empowering Presence: The Holy Spirit in the Letters of Paul (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1994), 363.
[2] Darrell W. Johnson, Experiencing The Trinity. (Vancouver: Regent College Publishing, 2002), 37.
[3] N.T. Wright, Paul for Everyone: 2 Corinthians (London: SPCK, 146.
[4] Fee, 362.
[5] Catherine LaCugna, God for Us: the Trinity and Christian Life (San Francisco: Harper, 1991), 411.
[6] Michael Reeves, Delighting in the Trinity (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2012), 96.

 

Church Hack: Digital Connect Cards

The ability to worship together through online services is a blessing that allows us to share the good news of Jesus beyond the walls of our building. We know that the Sunday service is just one aspect of church life and discipleship. Download this month’s GCI Church Hack, which shares the why and how of developing digital connection cards. These provide a way for online guests to connect with your congregation beyond the service. #GCIchurchhacks

https://resources.gci.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/2021-CH12-Digital_Connect_Cards.pdf

Imitating Incarnation

When Jesus “moved into the neighborhood,” he set an example for us in how to effectively work with others.

We recently celebrated the Advent season and gave special attention to Christ’s first coming, second coming, and continual presence with us. Following Advent, we celebrated Christmas – the incarnation – when the Son of God entered our world and became the Son of man. He became one of us. For those striving to disciple young people, it is good to take a new look at John 1:14 and note how Eugene Peterson interpreted the verse. It gives us a good point to focus on as we strive to follow Jesus’ example.

The Word became flesh and blood, and moved into the neighborhood. We saw the glory with our own eyes, the one-of-a-kind glory, like Father, like Son, Generous inside and out, true from start to finish. (John 1:14 MSG)

God could have redeemed us from afar. We might think that he could have spoken another “let there be” and changed our nature, but he respects our ability to choose too much for that. Instead, to bring about our restoration, he moved into the neighborhood. Advent and Christmas celebrates this part of God’s nature that gets up close and personal. We celebrate the humble God who becomes one of the most pitiable of creatures in order to make them his children. He was not too proud to align himself with the corrupted, and due to his close proximity, we became infected by his health.

As we seek to cultivate Jesus in children and youth, do we follow Christ’s model? Do we strive to move into their neighborhood? There are times when an attraction approach (getting the young people to come to us) works well. For example, doing a community-wide event, like a neighborhood camp, is a great way to help children and youth experience the kingdom. However, congregations that only employ attractional strategies when reaching out to the young people in their community are missing out on some wonderful opportunities.

I encourage congregations to imitate Jesus’ approach and consider incarnational strategies — actions that move you into the neighborhood. Make an effort to go where the young people already gather and humbly try to become a part of their lives. Some incarnational strategies might include one or more of the following:

  • Volunteering at a school or youth program
  • Attending sporting events
  • Becoming a Big Brother/Big Sister
  • Coaching a sports team
  • Becoming a band booster
  • Volunteering at school plays or concerts
  • Being a chaperone at a school event

Jesus showed how much God loves us by moving into our neighborhood. When we follow him into the midst of our children and youth, we reflect his love and show them how important they are. There is a saying, “Children do not care what you know until they know that you care.” Initiating relationship by meeting young people where they are is an important way of communicating that you care.

For some of us, living incarnationally among children can feel intimidating. The good news is that Jesus has already gone before us. When we meet children where they are, we do not do so with our own power. We go in faith believing that God will reveal himself through us. By moving into our neighborhood, Jesus changed the entire world. Imagine what God is willing to do if we imitate him?

By Dishon Mills, Generations Ministry Coordinator, US

Why the Church? w/ Dishon & Afrika Mills

Why the Church? w/ Dishon & Afrika Mills

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In this episode, Cara Garrity interviews Dishon and Afrika Afeni Mills. Dishon is the lead church planter of a GCI church plant in Charlotte, NC, and the National Coordinator for Gen Min in GCI-USA. Afrika is the Director of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion at Better Lesson. Together they discuss the foundational question of the purpose of the Church.

“I think the purpose of the church is to be aware and to become aware and to embrace the gift of God. That he invites us into a relationship with him. The other image that comes to mind for me, is that we recognize the invitation of God, is that we are sitting at this vast table that God has prepared for all of us, and we are the ones who invite those who are not yet at the table. To come and sit, to come and see, to come and taste that the Lord is good… We are imperfect beings, so we don’t do it perfectly, but when we are at our best we are those who recognize who God is and who we are in God.”
– Afrika Afeni Mills

“The goal is not to transform the world into the Kingdom, only Jesus can usher in the kingdom. We’re not going to see the world completely changed because of the efforts of the church. But what we will see is that the name of Jesus is lifted on high, that we bear witness that he is real, and that there are better ways of being. It starts with us engaging in authentic relationships.”
– Dishon Mills, church planter

Main Points:

  • What is the church? Its purpose? (2:48)
  • The ministry of the Love Avenue is that of witness, there is a sense of outward movement in this avenue. How does the church engage with the world around us? (7:38)
  • What does it look like for the church to live out its calling, not in a vacuum, but in the very context of our time and place? (13:21)
  • What do you believe are some signs that a church is living out its calling? (28:12)
  • What advice do you have for those of us who are hesitant to engage particular matters of the world and human experience with the gospel because they may be too messy or hot topics? (43:25)

 

Resources:

Healthy Church – President Greg Williams shares an update on GCI and our vision of Healthy Church.

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Program Transcript


Why the Church? w/ Dishon & Afrika Mills

Welcome to the GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience. Here are your hosts, Cara Garrity and Sarah Rossi.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to another episode of the GC Podcast. It is my pleasure to introduce you to Sarah Rossi, who will be our co-host for this quarter.

Sarah is a member and leader in the GCI church in Waltham, Massachusetts. And a member of the GC Next team in the Northeast region. Sarah works in the global health field in Boston and studies ways to effectively bring public health intervention to communities. And most importantly, Sarah is my dear friend.

Sarah, it’s great to have you join us here for GC Podcast. Now this episode is being released at the start of the new year. So across human experiences, there are many different traditions that honor the experience of new beginnings. What do you think, Sarah, makes new beginning so meaningful to the human experience?

Sarah:  I think that new beginnings give us the opportunity to reflect on the past and to reorient ourselves towards our values. Sometimes for me, at least, life feels so distraught and new beginnings remind us that we can restart and change directions at any point, that we are not locked into our past or the narratives that we believe about ourselves.

New beginnings give us the push we need to start something new, the renewed sense of hope.

Cara:  Amen. Thank you for sharing that. I love that idea of a renewed sense of hope. As we come into this new year, we will be focusing on the Love Avenue. And in today’s interview Afrika Afeni Mills and Dishon Mills share with us what they believe the purpose of the church is and how that shapes the Love Avenue.

Let’s listen to that interview.


Cara: Hello, friends and welcome to the latest episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion, International churches. My name is Cara Garrity, and it is my joy to be your newest host of GC Podcast. It is an even greater joy to welcome Afrika Afeni Mills and Dishon Mills as my first guest to the podcast. Dishon is the lead pastor of a church plant in Charlotte, North Carolina, and the national coordinator of Generations Ministries in GCI USA. Afrika is the Director of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion at BetterLesson.

More importantly, these are the folks who raised me from a baby GCI intern to now serving as GCI’s Development Coordinator. So, this is a special episode for me. Dishon and Afrika, thank you so much for being here with us today!

We’ll be discussing the foundational question of the purpose of the church. Why do we exist? But before we get started, I’d love to know how are you experiencing the hope of Jesus in this season?

Afrika: Well, thank you so much for having us, first of all.  Because we just recently relocated from Massachusetts to North Carolina, for me, hope is feeling like really being able to build community.  It’s a big move, I think.  After growing up in New York City and going to college in east Texas, I spent most of my life in Massachusetts.  So, relocating was exciting and also kind of nerve wracking. Right? I feel like what Jesus has been showing me is not only family members that we are blood-related to or I’m related to by marriage, but really being able to expand our community of people who are also believers and recipients of the love of Jesus and so that has been making me feel really hopeful.

Cara:  Dishon?

Dishon: Hi, Cara, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. It’s really a great honor and privilege to be here. What’s giving me hope these days is this podcast and you, as the host of it.  There was a time when, in our denomination, we did not believe that women could be teachers and leaders, and the fact that we have repented of that and we’re now having you as one of the voices of our denomination is a very hopeful step forward. And it has given me hope today.

Afrika: Yeah. I’d agree with that.

Cara: Well, thank you both for sharing. Why don’t we dive right in? Because this is a big question, the purpose of the church. So let’s start there. Dishon, what is the church and its purpose?

Dishon: We could spend several podcasts answering this question, but I’ll try to share a bit of what I know and I think I know so far. The church is the collective term for the freed people of God.  God, in his freedom, sets human beings free, and those who accept that and are following that are collectively known as the church.

We are those who acknowledged Jesus as our king and our savior. And we follow him with worship and devotion. And I think the purpose of the church – there are several purposes, but one of the primary ones is to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ in this present evil age, proclaiming that there is a source of hope, that there is a source of love, that there is a source of peace that is accessible to us. We bear witness in word and action of the kingdom breaking into our time, and that the kingdom is present, and it’s coming. And for that reason, we want to turn our hearts to Christ.

I think a couple more things come to mind.  The church is ordained, preordained by God to do good works, that God has a purpose for us and work for us to do in this time and to participate in the ministry of Jesus Christ, to reconcile all things to himself, reconcile things to God and reconcile people to each other.

And the church has a big job. Unfortunately, our witness is imperfect because the church is made up of imperfect people. We make mistakes. We do not have full knowledge of God. We do not have our hearts completely transformed yet, but although the witness of the church is imperfect and flawed and always will be in this present evil age, it is still important and necessary because it turns people’s eyes towards Christ.

Afrika: I would agree with what Dishon has shared, and I am someone who – I’m a writer – so I think in terms of story a lot, and I’m compelled by a story. I think a lot of us are. So, what comes to mind for me when I think of the church is thinking about a different take on the movie, The Matrix, right?

For those of you who are familiar, and I was going to give a spoiler warning, but it’s an old movie, so I think it’s okay for me. I know that the next version, the next part of it is coming out soon. So, I think it’s fine to say. The main character, he felt like something was not quite right in the world and was offered the opportunity to take a red or blue pill: the red pill would be to discover what was really happening in the world and the blue would be to remain in ignorance. So, it’s not quite the same because for me, the purpose of the church is not as bleak as what he experienced when he took the red pill.  But it’s almost, I believe, like that saying that talks about there’s a God-sized hole in all of us.

I think that really we know that there’s something more to life; there’s something different. And I think that the purpose of the church is to be aware and to become aware and to embrace the gift of God that he invites us into in relationship with him.

And then the other image that comes to mind for me too, is we recognize the invitation of God, and we’re sitting at this vast table that God has prepared for all of us and that we are the ones who invite those who are not yet at the table, to come and sit too, to come and see, right? Come and taste and see that the Lord is good. And so that’s what kind of comes to mind for me is an invitation.

And I agree with Dishon too; it’s hard because we are imperfect beings. We don’t do it perfectly, but I feel like, when we are at our best, we are those who recognize who God is and who we are in God. And we are excited and joyful, and we are extending the invitation to those who don’t yet know.

Cara: Amen. And I think in what both of you shared, there’s a connection here, even, to this next question that I have for you both. There’s something about the existence and the purpose of the church, that’s not just for the sake of the church, right? This idea of reconciliation to God and to others and this idea of invitation.

So, the ministry of the Love Avenue is that of witness, and there is this sense of outward movement or movement towards those who are not already part of the gathering church. What is the nature of that outward movement? Or to maybe phrase that another way, how does the church engage the world around it?

Afrika: For me, in the work that I do, I do quite a bit of work with educators and providing professional learning experiences to help to fortify and to give teachers what they need to make sure that students have what they need and deserve. And I think that a lot of it is about, unlearning some of the things that we have come to perceive as meaning, okay, this is what the church is.  Because I feel like there’s a vast misperception by people who are not Christian – and people who are – about what it means to be a Christ follower.

For me, it looks like learning how to not see people as other, right? But to be able to see people as all God’s kids.  Like when we think what Jesus talks about in the word that it is his desire, that all – right? – all should experience a relationship with him, and all should experience eternal life.

And so, then it can’t be that we’re looking at people as like, okay, we’re in this exclusive club and then other people are not. I think for me, it feels like really unlearning some of those ways, some of those individualistic ways and more into thinking more about, what does it mean to be a community of believers?

And so that’s the first thing that comes to mind for me.

Dishon: Picking up from what you said, I think even our language causes us to misrepresent and misunderstand what the church is.  Where do we go on Sunday? We go to church.  But the church is not a building.  I think that causes us to have an inward focus as to what those who follow Christ should be doing. Where we go on Sunday should be a celebration, should be a gathering of those who are the church.

So, the outward focus, what we should be thinking about in the Love Avenue, I think is engaging our communities and our neighborhoods with full knowledge that Jesus is already in the world, that Jesus is already working, that we don’t serve our community because they’re such poor wretches and without us they’d be lost or that we have to bring Jesus to them. It’s an acknowledgement that Jesus already is already there. And to understand God, we have to go and work on mission and participate in the work that he’s doing. So that there’s a benefit to us to going out and loving our neighbors.

But beyond that, we get to engage them with humility, love, empathy. And be a force of good in our world, which is getting back to those are some of the good works that God has preordained for us to do that we should be ready and willing to participate in those things that God has for us.

Afrika: Is it okay if I follow up on something that Dishon was saying? You were saying that sometimes we think about church as the building that we go to on Sundays. I think too, then there can be a pendulum swing, where I’ve seen some folks who will say, “Well, no, the church is not the building; I am the church so I can do whatever.”

And I’m like, it’s not that either though. Right? Because there’s something really important about us gathering in community with one another, like we think about our Triune God has been in relationship eternally. Right? And so that has to be important, right?

That relationship piece between us is really key. So, it’s not about me privately, doing my devotionals on my own and reading the Bible on my own and watching or listening to podcasts on my own without gathering with other folks too. It’s really showing what relationship looks like, right? What does it mean to be, in a partnership, in a relationship with Jesus? It needs to be those types of relationships.

Dishon: Yeah. We have to stop – a lot of people think of themselves and they put the label of Christian on themselves and that’s more of a cultural label than it is a badge of being transformed. Jesus is the ultimate place sharer.  This word “place sharing”, sharing the space, coming empathetically and dwelling in the same place as a person in order to be a blessing to them, to renew them, to make them whole.  When humanity was lost, Jesus in his role as creator, in his role as the one who is restoring and recreating all things, place shared.  He came and dwelt in our midst. He came and he became one of us.

So, to think that we can do otherwise is to misunderstand who Jesus is. We can’t do otherwise; we have to follow him. And that’s what he does. That’s how he does things. When he wants to see things renewed and restored, he enters that space.  And it’s not him that catches our disease; we catch his health. Right? And he transforms neighborhoods and communities and people and individuals wherever he goes, and we are called to do likewise.

Cara: Yeah. I really liked that because even coming back to your image about, this blue pillar or this red pill, that there’s a different way, right?

That God’s people would also operate according to his ways. And we do that messily where we’re learning, but that is part of what it means to be his church. It’s his church as he’s created that his church as he’s becoming his church – or as he’s creating us to become, as we’re becoming his church, and as he is relationship, we also are going to be in relationship with each other. So, it’s not church as we define it. No, but church he’s made us to be.

Afrika: I totally agree.

Dishon:  That’s right.

Cara: Yeah. I love that. So, what does that look like? You guys are talking about this particular, even, posture that we engage this world around us as the church.  What does that look like for the church to live out this calling to be the church, not in a vacuum or in a little Christian bubble, but in the very context that church finds itself in our neighborhoods, our schools, our workplaces, our societies? Dishon, do you want to go ahead?

Dishon: Sure. I think there’s this misperception, that in order to be a Christian, we have to live in such a way where we’re very distinctive from the people around us. We have to sort of separate from the world. We have to talk in a certain way and wear certain clothes and listen to certain music. Right? So, we practice this churchianity.

And I don’t see that in scripture, right? When I look at Acts 2, I see a group of people following after Jesus, and the lines between those who followed Christ and those who didn’t, that line was incredibly thin. In fact, I see them gathering in the temple, the public square, the open space, the shared space of the community, and gathering there and celebrating life together.

And I see that circle overlapping the circle of those who did not follow Jesus. Right? And they were in each other’s homes, and they gathered together. And the Holy Spirit was adding to that group daily because you just couldn’t tell the line. There was no line. It was permeable. The folks who were not following Jesus were easily integrated into the circles of those who did.

And so, I think that’s what it looks like. I think it looks like us participating in the life of our communities intentionally, but not with an agenda. And what I mean by that is we’re not going there to try to make our pitch to follow Jesus first chance we get.

Afrika: Like with an ulterior motive.

Dishon: Exactly. Thank you.

We’re looking to build relationships that are authentic. But we also do that hopefully knowing that as we do, the Holy Spirit will move in our midst and create opportunities for us to share the good news about Jesus Christ.

And it’s also inviting people who don’t yet know who Jesus is into our rhythms. Invite them into sharing life with us, into our homes, into our gatherings so they can be transformed. Again, they’re not coming to hear a sales pitch and get pushed hard, but just to enjoy life without an agenda, without trying to force the issue, trusting the Holy Spirit to do [the] work. And as we do that, I think we’ll see things change.

Again, the church is imperfect. So, the goal is not to transform the world into the kingdom; only Jesus can usher in the kingdom. We’re not going to see the world completely changed because of the efforts of the church. But what we will see is that the name of Jesus is lifted on high, that we bear witness that he’s real and that there’s better ways of being. But it starts with us engaging in authentic relationships.

Afrika: A lot of times I feel like it’s just so simple. I think we complicate things unnecessarily. One of my favorite parts of the Bible is where in Galatians it talks about the fruits of the Spirit. For me, I think about, what does it mean to radiate the experience of those fruit? Right? What does it mean to, wherever we go, whatever relationships we’re in, whether we’re going to the salon to get our eyebrows done, or we’re going to the supermarket or we’re in traffic, how do we leave behind the aroma of the kingdom?

And not perfectly, like you said, because we do, we have hard days, we get frustrated. So those things will happen, but more often than not, I feel like it should really be that wherever we are, people should feel something special. That they had an encounter with someone special and it might be in passing.

A lot of times what I’ll try to do, and this is – I’m not taking credit for it because it’s something that God has encouraged me to do – is when even I make a phone call, is to ask the person, “How are you?” Genuinely. “How are you? How is your day?” It’s really to slow down to be curious about people. And to really, like you were saying, not in an inauthentic way or with some type of, my outcome, my goal is that I want to get you to come to this building. Right? But really is, I want you, I have been compelled by the love of Jesus.

And I want to be part of that as well for as many people as possible. And so, I think it’s just in the way we carry ourselves, our thoughts, our actions, our decisions, how humble we are, how vulnerable we are, how willing we are to make amends and to apologize. A lot of those things are rare. And so, when we do those things in relationship, I think it’s refreshing for people. And that’s because of God.

Cara:  A transformed way of being.

Dishon: And I think in my experience, the people who have the hardest time with that approach is church folk. And I’m saying this is as someone who loves the church.

Afrika:  Absolutely.

Dishon:  There was a time when Afrika and I were planting [a church] up in Massachusetts and we were having these community dinners and trying to live this out, just inviting our neighbors to share a meal with us.  And the people who were either disconnected from Christ or just didn’t know him at all, they loved it. They just flocked to it. It was a wonderful time.

But it was church folk that would come up to me and say, “Hey, are you going to get people to confess their sins and to accept Christ?” And I’m like “No, we’re just gonna eat these ribs, eat this salad and play these games.”

Because I think – I’m not sure, but I think – a lot of times we don’t value enough the power of helping people to experience the kingdom, versus always just saying and telling people things. I wonder how much more successful we would be in reaching people if we set a priority to help people experience the kingdom before telling them about the kingdom, letting them experience it, then explaining, “This is what happened to you. This is what you’re feeling. And this is why.”

Cara: Yeah. That’s good. And as a follow up to that, I’m even just thinking, in this idea of living out the calling of the church, right where we are, contexts are different. So, what does that look like to think about the context, where each church’s (GCI churches) contexts are different all across the world? So where do you start when thinking about what does it look like for this particular local church to live out its calling right where it is? Dishon, what are your thoughts?

Dishon: Again, I’m going to offer what I think and what I’ve seen and what I’ve experienced. But I think the community knows and values the congregation.  I heard Michael Frost say in a speech that he was giving that if your church ceased to exist, the community should mourn, right?

It should be that integrated. So, whether or not the community knows and values the congregation, whether or not members of the congregation are using their gifts. Is it just a few people or is it everyone seeking to understand and use their gifts? The congregation meets the community where it is.

A lot of times churches can be in this mode of come to this event, come to that event. And they get frustrated when people don’t come, but that’s not what I see in scripture. When I look at scripture, I see Jesus going and meeting people where they are going, where they gather, going where they live their lives.

I think that’s another sign of a church living out it’s calling, where the church pops up, where the community already is. There should be an organized wildness to our congregations where ministry grows organically. It should be – as people are engaged in the community and seeking how to live out their gifts, their gifting – that ideas just pop up.  We say, “Hey, we should do this, we should do that.”

There should be a certain wildness to our congregations. And sometimes ministries sprout up and sometimes ministries end. It should be a coming and going based on the moving of the Spirit. And so there should be that kind of vitality in life if we’re truly living this out.

And then the bottom line is, are we regularly seeking the discernment and guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead us in all ways? Not just over sort of large-scale decisions that affect the future of the church, where we pray those things through, but the small ones, right? Like how do we engage our neighborhood today? How do we engage our neighbors today?

I think churches that are living this out they say prayers like that. They pray over the smallest things, wanting the guidance of the Holy Spirit and submitting all they do to the Spirit. I think it’s very important.

Afrika: One of the connections that I make to your question is thinking about for me, when I was a classroom teacher and even in the work that I do in supporting educators now. Of course, it’s complicated.  Everything’s complicated based on the pandemic, because place sharing has had to shift in a lot of different ways based on trying to be responsible and keep one another safe.

When we think about teachers and students or schools and students and their families, it’s similar to what Dishon was saying. A lot of times the perspective is, we’re having an open house, or we’re having conference night, we’re having literacy night or math night. And we want the families to come to this building to hear about what we have to say about your child.  Right? There’s that approach.

There’s another approach where it’s, we do have some things to share about your child, and we could do it here, or we could do it in the community center, in your neighborhood, or we can do home visits. Right? We can come to where you are also.

And then on top of that, not only do we have something to offer you, we believe that your family has something to offer us as well. And I think that really resonates with me when we think about when we’re living out our calling. Part of letting the aroma of Jesus, like I was talking about earlier, is also finding out what God has put in them and what they like, how we can learn from them as well.

So, I think that’s the piece too. It’s not just about, oh we have this message to give you. And it’s yes, absolutely, very transformative and it’s necessary! And it’s also having a curiosity about what it is that we can learn from and how we can also be in relationship with the community as well.  It’s so important.

So, I think a lot of times we miss out on that, because we don’t see the value of what God may already be doing, like what you were talking about before.  And we’re not curious enough about that.

Cara: That curiosity and discernment kind of coming together. And I think that’s important even on a practical level because sometimes even when we have this heart of wanting to – yeah, we want to be in the community and we would want the community to mourn if our church was gone – we can still get in a copy and paste mode. Right? But neighborhoods are different! In one neighborhood, people might gather in the community center.  In another neighborhood, they might gather somewhere else. What works in some place, might not work somewhere else because what God is doing in one place might be different than somewhere else.

Afrika: Yes, it’s distinct.

Cara: And so that curiosity and discernment, what is God doing here today?

Dishon: That’s right. And I think that has to be discerned in community. I think another thing that I see is a lot of times, churches say we’re going to go out to our community. Then it’s a bunch of individuals going out and doing things. Again, what I see in the book of Acts and in other places throughout scripture, what bears witness to Jesus is the love that we show for each other, as us in community.

In fact, to be the image of God, it took humanity, the totality of humanity, all the languages, all the different shades of skin, all the different eye shapes, all the different hair textures to reflect the image of God, right? It doesn’t take any one person or one group. So, when we do go out, we do so in community, gathering and sharing love for each other, and I think that’s what it is attractive to people. That’s what makes people ask questions? Like, why are you all so loving? How can it be part of it?

Afrika: I think we have to also be mindful (and this no disrespect to any praise songs) but Dishon and I talked about this recently, even our posture when we even sing a song, like “Greater things have yet to come and greater things is still to be done in this city.” Yes, and what does that mean though? Right? Is it something that we feel like God is going to do to people or that God is trying to do with people? And that’s a big difference, right? That’s a big difference.

When you talk about in communities, things happen differently, I think we also need to be aware of the history of that type of approach where it’s, we’re going to come and do this thing.  We’ll take over and change this community.  Because that’s happened a lot historically to different societies and peoples, and that’s not a good thing.

So, we’re not trying to – I don’t believe that’s how God operates. He is not a God who does to; he’s a God who does with, and that’s an important consideration.

Dishon: That’s right. Yes.

Cara: Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, amen!  Good stuff!

This is good. So, as we’re learning and as we’re bringing together curiosity and discernment and bringing this posture of being in our communities, what do you believe that we may start to see, as some of the signs that a church is beginning to live out it’s calling?

Afrika: I will say for me, you start to see a lot of trust. I think trust is such an important consideration because, like we were talking about before, so much of what we are doing in community is forming relationships. And there’s a lot of brokenness in the world, right? Because like we were talking about before, as human beings, we are not perfect.

We are flawed, and we do harm, unfortunately, whether intentionally or unintentionally. So, for me, I feel like you start to see gatherings of folks who have trusting relationships, where it feels like a healthy family. Right? You see each other, you’re at each other’s events, you’re going to kids’ games and performances and you’re going to movie nights together. You’re doing things in the community to improve things or to celebrate together. So, and I think there’s a lot of joy there.

Sometimes, I’ve been in different places, and it feels so restrictive and stern and there’s no laughter, there’s not a lot of like movement and celebration. That’s not compelling.

So, for me, I feel like one of the things that’s a really good sign of healthy community is that those relationships are really fruitful, and like I said, joyful! And it’s something that I think is contagious, because when you see people operating or relating like that, it’s like, oh, I want that too. Right?

I think a lot of us especially have become really aware during the pandemic, of that feeling of isolation and feeling disconnected from community. So, when community is good, it’s such a compelling piece. And then we are able to let folks know, yeah, this is – and we learn ourselves too – that this is Jesus. This is what God has intended for us.

Dishon: And I think I covered some things earlier, but I think one more thing comes to mind in addition to what Afrika just said.  And this is kind of flipping the question, I think one of the ways in which we’ll see if the church is living this out is if those who are in power begin to oppose the church, because we’ve seen that historically. Jesus is the king of the upside-down kingdom.

And Jesus is good. He’s perfect. And because of that, the way he does things cuts against the way this world is oriented. And so, where Jesus is, there’s no hierarchy.  Where Jesus is those who have gifts, so that those who do not have, will have, so all can have, right? So, Jesus comes in and changes the ways of being of the society.

And so, Martin Luther King talked about this in Letter from a Birmingham Jail. It used to be when the church stood up in a community, those who were in power started to shake because they know that where the church goes, the poor are blessed, right?

Afrika: Jubilee is coming.

Dishon: Right. Because where the church goes, the kingdom goes there too. And then those things get turned upside down. But we have to be concerned when the church comes to town, the power structures rejoice, right? When the church ceases to be a force of change, where it loses his prophetic voice, where it aligns itself with empire and power, instead of those who are valued least by our society, the least of these that Jesus talked about, right?

When the church starts to do that, then that’s when we start to lose our saltiness. That’s when we start to not be light. And I think that is something that should concern all of us. But yeah, I think part of what happens when the church lives out it’s calling are those that exist to hold onto power that has a result of oppressing others or subjugating others, they’re going to get uncomfortable.

Afrika: Start to get a little nervous.

Cara: Right.  Because the kingdom is at hand, and so anything and anyone that may be threatened by the ways of the kingdom are a little uncomfortable. So that’s a side effect of the in-breaking of the kingdom ways as the church lives out, it’s calling. That’s good. That’s good.

We touched on this a little bit in terms of, how do we live out the calling of the church in our particular context. In the season, we are focusing on what it means to be neighborhood churches, the church right in our neighborhood. Is there anything in addition, that either of you would add in terms of what that discernment process looks like?

Particularly, you both are part of this church plant in the Charlotte neighborhood. Are there any, maybe even practical steps or advice that you would give to our listeners about the discernment process to live out the calling of the church in your neighborhood?

Afrika: Yeah. I was going to say that we talked a little bit about when we know that the church is operating in a healthy way that people are operating in their gifts.

For me, one of the things that I’ve been paying particular attention to is that I believe that God catches our attention about things that he has gifted us for and has put on our hearts to focus on. I think that in a lot of ways it’s like when you’re in a community or when you’re in the neighborhood, if there are things that are on your heart, connecting with those topics or those places.

So, for me, it’s the schools.  And it’s different for me now because our own children are – our son is in his first year of college and our daughter is in her second year of college. So, this is the first year that we don’t have children in the K-12; they’ve moved on. Right? I don’t have that parental connection there, but I’m really very curious and starting to look into what’s happening with the schools in the community.

Are there ways that I can not only be of service or connect with what’s happening in the schools but are there things that I can learn from the rhythms of the schools and what they’re doing and not just, the elementary schools, but all of the schools, middle schools, the high schools too? And it’s an interesting time to be connected with schools, especially because we’re still in the midst of this global pandemic. Things are still hybrid-ish, so it’s not the same as it had been prior.

But I think it’s really starting to connect with, what is it that’s on your heart? And how do you connect with that part of the community or what’s happening there? And then just seeing what comes of it. So just really being curious.  That’s my thing, being curious and being open to finding things out and learning from that, not just assuming that we already know, but going and just being in the space and seeing what’s happening there and then just really seeing what God would do as you’re joining into the rhythms of that part of the community.

Dishon: Yeah. I agree. I think a big part of this process is, I’ll call it “community mapping”, is that sort of looking at the needs and resources. And there’s lots of sources of information: schools, talk to the police fire department, local community-based organizations, nonprofits. These can all be really great sources of information.

And have informational meetings with these folks and say, “Hey, we’re just going to try and get a sense of this community. Can you tell us what you see? What’s coming down the pipe? What are the needs? What are the opportunities?” And having lots of conversations with lots of people in the community could be really helpful.

I think congregations need to also discern their unique purpose. Just like each person has been given gifts by the Spirit and is given a purpose, so too every congregation, I believe. I believe every congregation has a unique set of gifts that are to be used for the glory of God. And so, it’s important to sit down and say, “As a congregation, why are we here? What is different about us than the folks down the street, right? Why are we uniquely called to this place?”

And to actively have a conversation about that and be thinking about that. And then, have a real conversation about what of our available resources? What are we willing to put towards connecting with our neighbors? And I think somewhere between those three is – mapping the needs of the community, discerning the purpose of your congregation, your available resources – somewhere in there in the middle, there is your ministry focus.

And I think that should be what you really put your effort into. You need to set targets, so you just can’t have a focus. You have to say, okay, this is the change that we would like to see, and your targets need to line up with what you’re doing.

I’ve heard some congregations say, “Hey, we want to address homelessness.”

So, I say, “Okay, great. What are you doing about that?”

“Well, we’re handing out coats,” which is a good thing, but if I were to ask you, what is the most fundamental need of someone who is homeless?  It is a home.

So, you can say that you’re trying to be compassionate and helping people get through the winter. That’s a valuable thing to do, but you can’t say, we’re addressing homelessness. Right? Because you’re not giving, you’re not addressing the fundamental need of someone who’s homeless. So, I think we have to ask questions about what outcomes are we seeking?

And the last thing I would say is that because of this process and because of who we are as the church, we need to check our biases. And ask questions: not only who are we serving, but who are we not serving and why? Are there folks that should be at this table that are not? Are there voices that should be heard that aren’t being heard, and why is that?

Because we always will gravitate towards the comfortable, we will always gravitate towards the safe.  And sometimes we have to ask ourselves, well, why is that? Is there another dimensions to this that God is asking us that we’re not hearing because of our biases?

Afrika: And the other thing that comes to mind too is – and I know some people have very strong feelings on one side or another, or maybe in the middle about the use of social media. One of the things that I’ve noticed though, is that yes, I think like with anything, there’s going to be parts of social media that can be challenging or not the most productive or healthy.

But since moving to the area, I’ve joined the Facebook group for the community or the Next Door app to see what’s happening. And of course, there’s some things that are in there just like, okay, all right, so this seems like you’re being a little bit insular and not really wanting people to come to you, seeing it as just like a closed community and you don’t really want other people in. All that’s on there.

Though, there are some people who are expressing needs or expressing the desire to connect. And I think that really being able to use that, use the opportunity to connect with people who are sharing things. I think about a couple of weeks ago, someone shared, “I’m starting my life and I’m just getting my first apartment. And if anyone has any furniture to donate, cause I don’t really have the money to furnish the home myself.” That’s an opportunity to really be of service, but then also to be in relationship potentially. So not seeing social media as a complete negative but seeing what are the ways that we can expand on our connections in our community based on what people in the neighborhood are sharing there.

Cara: That’s good.

This has come up, as we’ve talked, we are not perfect human beings. And so, this can be messy as we learn and we grow by the Spirit. And so, responding to God’s calling on his church, it’s not formulaic or a linear journey. It is full of repentance and renewal, transformation in Christ.

What advice do you have for our listeners who are on the journey of becoming who God has called his church to be?

Afrika, do you want to?

Afrika: Sure. I mentioned this a bit earlier too, and I think it’s still pertinent for this question, is really hearing from God and trying to unlearn some of the ways of being that we have formerly learned.

So, in order to be in community with one another, it does require for us to think differently than how a lot of us were brought up or how a lot of us are encouraged to be in this society or in this country. I’ve thought in some of the work that I’ve done about what the differences are between being individualistic and being a communal people.

When we think so much about ourselves, then that’s counter to what it is that God’s trying to do with us. So that is something that I’ve been trying to focus on and trying to see, okay, well, I don’t have to do all these things individually. I don’t have to appear a certain way. If I have questions or struggles, I can be that person, that I can be my true self, because that’s who God, he invites me to be Afrika. He created me, right?

And then thinking about, how do we create that type of space too? How do we form community and come a bit away from that individualistic perspective where we’re just having to be alone and trying to perform for God? Because that’s not what God is looking for. It’s about us connecting with other folks too and really being able to shape life together. So, that’s something that really kind of jumps out at me.

Dishon: Yeah. I think we have to embrace the mess and imperfection of the church. I think it can be natural that as your mind is renewed, to look back at people who think how you used to think, and see them in a very negative light, right? There’s a movement now about deconstructing our faith. And in some ways, I think that is a very healthy conversation because I think we need to take a look at the ways in which our social, diseased imagination has affected the way in which we worship Jesus. Because things like racism and sexism and other isms have affected the structures of the church, the way in which we organize ourselves, and the way we conduct ourselves collectively.  Those things have been impacted by those isms.

So, the extent to which the church has aligned itself with power versus align itself with its purpose and in seeking empire instead of seeking to be salt and light, we do need to ask those difficult questions. But deconstruction is only part of it. You have to build something, right? You have to build something up. We can’t just tear down.

And so, we should be seeking to remove harmful things to foster more growth. And we have to trust that God has the long view. Part of what my hope is for those who are on this journey would be to realize that it is the flaws of the church that help make it beautiful.

It’s in the imperfections that help the church testify even more to the goodness of God. I mean, we are those jars of clay.  They’re broken and put back together again, and the light shines through those cracks in us. As people look upon us and we say, “Hey, you know we’re people, we’re the church, we don’t have it all together, but there is this Jesus who is just so wonderful. And he’s putting me back together even now, and he could do the same thing for you.” That is the beauty and power of the church.

So, I would ask people that are on this journey to meditate on why Jesus still has scars. Why does he still have those blemishes? They’re beautiful. And the church’s imperfections and its scars and blemishes should add to our beauty, not take away.

Afrika: It brings up for me the now and the not yet. I think if we really leaned into that, that would be such a more helpful place to be. I think back to myself, in my earlier walk as a Christ follower, in the beginning, it was so performative.

It was like, okay, I have to have this checklist of all these things that God doesn’t want me to do. I’ve got to make sure I don’t do those things. And then there’s some stuff he wants me to do, so I gotta make sure I try to do that stuff. And then he’s going to love me, right?

So, if we think of it that way, it’s as if it’s totally missing the relationship and what God intends to be the transformative process. I think about that too if we were more candid and vulnerable about that, it’d be like, no, we haven’t arrived. It’s not like I am this saved person and you’re a sinner. It’s like, yeah I’m still in the process of becoming, as we all are.

So, I think that is so important for us to be able to [say], “Yes, we are broken.  And Jesus is healing, and he is embracing, and he is changing me.  And let’s do this together.” It’s not like, I’m looking at you from some mountaintop, right? We’re walking alongside one another.

Cara: Amen. Well, as we do learn to be the church for the world and in the world, and not just in our safe little Christian bubbles, I not only imagine, but I guarantee we’re going to encounter some difficult questions and conversations. What advice do you have for those of us who might be hesitant to engage particular matters of the world and human experience with the gospel because they might be too messy or hot topics? Dishon, you want to go ahead?

Dishon: I’m speaking for myself. And I think others may be like me as well, but I think we need to learn how to lament. And lament is a spiritual practice that we don’t talk about that much. But if you look in scripture, it’s absolutely necessary and vital. And from start to finish, cover to cover in the Bible, the people of God lamented. And this is crying out to God in our brokenness and naming our complicity and sins of omission and sins of commission, and admitting that we have no other help but God and only God can renew us and make us new and give us a new heart.

And I think as we encounter different types of people, instead of doing the visceral reaction of when we encounter something that makes us uncomfortable, pull away, I think what we need to do is lean in and let our hearts break. Let our hearts break for the disunity of humanity, let our hearts break for our disconnection from God, that we don’t even know that we are made in the image of God anymore.

People don’t even know that they are blessed by the divine. I mean, they don’t even know! And we should mourn these things. And I think that part of what it means to be human is to place share and allow ourselves to be shaped by the story of others.

And unless we’re willing to sit in lament for a little while and admit even our own complicity with the way things are, how we’ve contributed things, we can’t move forward in our reconciliation efforts, right? We can’t participate in that ministry of reconciliation, whether it be to reconcile the church to people who are not yet in the church or folks who are not yet in the church to God or any variation of those things. So, I think one of the first things we need to do is learn how to lament.

Afrika: There’s a Ted Talk that I really, really like by Chimamanda Adichie and it’s called The Danger of a Single Story. And I highly recommend for people, if you haven’t watched it, I highly recommend it. But basically, the gist of it is that we can tend to look at one another in a very myopic way.

We see one another as one thing, as opposed to seeing each other as dynamic people who are way more than one thing. And so, I think for me in my – like you said, you’re speaking personally – in my journey, it’s been important for me to ask more questions and to hear from people as opposed to assuming that I already have someone figured out. Because I don’t!

There’s some stuff I know because of God’s grace and from lived and learned experiences, there’s a ton that I don’t know. And there are things that I don’t even know to ask because they’re not part of my experience. There have been things that I think in previous, earlier parts of my journey as a Christ follower, where I was like, well, that thing or person’s choice is wrong and that makes them a bad person.  And I have to stay away from them because I have to be unspotted by the world and I can’t blend together; I’m a called out one. Right? I think there’s a continuum in our journey as Christians. I think there is a place for that, where we can kind of grapple in that space, but that it’s really important that we not stay there and to know we don’t have God all figured out.

And there are some things that we may have even read in scripture that we had the wrong impression of. Speaking as a woman, for a long time, I was really, I was kind of irritated with Paul because the things that I was told that Paul espouse doctrinally about women seemed kinda messed up.

And so, it really kind of hindered my relationship with even – I mean, he wrote a lot of the New Testament, so it was a struggle for me. And then when I started to understand the context of some of the things that he said, that they weren’t quite what I was being told that they meant, I’m like, oh, okay! So, then I have a deeper understanding of it because we have these conversations and explore what I think I know.

So, I think that there some part of that as well, that there are some things that we have been told and some things that we think we know that we should have a bit more questions and openness to hearing from people about, and not assuming that we already understand someone or someone’s journey.

And not seeing someone as the one choice that they’ve made. In the case of some of the things that we tend to affiliate ourselves with politically, it’s not just about someone’s choices that they have made or who they say they are.  They are children, they are God’s creation. I think that we really need to focus a bit more on that than thinking about how we need to be separate from people.

Dishon: Yeah. Humility is what you’re talking about, being more humble.

Afrika: Right.

Cara: Yeah. That’s good. Well, is there anything else that we haven’t covered or that I haven’t asked that you would like to share before we bring our conversations to a close today?

Dishon: Cara, I’m exhausted.

Cara: Alright, well!  Like I haven’t made y’all do enough work!

Well, before I let you off too easy, in keeping with the tradition of my predecessor, Anthony Mullins, I am going to ask you both a series of fun questions and you’ll answer the first thing that comes to mind.  Are you all ready?

Afrika: Yes, I’m going to try not to overthink this.

Cara: Marvel or DC?

Both Afrika and Dishon: Marvel.

Cara: Easy, good answer. Is a hotdog, a sandwich?

Both Afrika and Dishon: No

Cara: Good answer. What is your biggest pet peeve?

Afrika: Oh for me, I mean, the first thing that came to mind and this I’m admitting that I really like to drive fast. So, if I’m driving on the highway and someone ahead of me is driving slower than I would prefer, I struggle with that.

Dishon: Hats that I perceive as goofy or silly. I’m pretty judgy when it comes to hats.

Cara: If you had to delete all but three apps from your smartphone, which ones would you keep?

Afrika: For me, I have the Voxer app. It’s like a walkie-talkie app that I use to keep in touch with friends. I would definitely keep Voxer. I would keep WhatsApp because that’s how I am seeing our daughter who was in college because she doesn’t have an iPhone, so I get to see her face through WhatsApp. And I’m trying to think what the third will be. It’s like there, there are probably some social media ones that I would keep, but it’s hard for me to say that cause I’m like, I’m trying to like, not be so addicted to them. So, I guess I would keep my email app because I do enjoy communicating that.

Dishon: I would keep Hoopla. I guess I would keep the texting app so people could get in contact with me.

Cara: That comes with the phone.

Dishon: There is this app to help me shop at the grocery store that keeps my lists together, which is very key or else I’d just be walking the aisles aimlessly.  And my Bible app, of course.

Cara: No, I’m offended. Neither of y’all said Pokémon Go, but you had to say the Bible app.

Afrika: But my Pokémon experience since I’ve moved here has been a little bit hard.

Cara: It’s all right.

So, imagine you have your own late night talk show. Who do you invite as your first guest?

Afrika: Oh, this is easy for me. I so fan-girl Ava DuVernay. I love her work and she’d be my first guests absolutely.

Dishon: Banksy!

Cara: That’s tricky though. That’s a work around, right?

Dishon: If he would come, that would be amazing. I would have my first show be the highest rated show.

Cara: The identity of Banksy revealed!

And last question. When you were a kid, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Dishon: I wanted to be a chef.

Afrika: Ooh.  Because I wanted to be a lot of different things, but I think being a writer is something that’s been interesting to me for a long time.

Cara: Amen! Cause you’re doing it.

Afrika: Yeah, I am. It’s pretty cool.

Dishon: Now I feel bad. Now I got to go to culinary school to keep up.

Cara: Nah, pastor’s an alright calling.

Afrika: Yeah, and you hold it down pretty well with the cooking.

Dishon: Thank you.  I appreciate it.

Cara: Well, thank you both for taking your time to join us today. It was a rich conversation, and I think our listeners are going to have a lot to chew on, to pray through, to discuss with church members and leaders. And to close us out for today, it is our practice with the GC Podcast to end our show with a word of prayer.

So, Afrika, would you be willing to pray for our churches, pastors, ministry, leaders, and members today?

Afrika: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Father, Son, and Spirit. We thank you so much for this opportunity to share time, to share space, to connect and talk about you and to talk about who we are in you, Lord. We’re just so grateful for all that you are to us and with us and all you have created us to be for one another.

Lord, I just pray for all that are in your service. We know that, especially during these times, they’re very unique times we’re living through right now with a lot of challenges that we have not experienced in this life previously. And so, we pray, Lord, we know that you understand us. We know that you are compassionate.

We know that you equip us Lord and that you provide us with the space for healing and comfort when we need it. And you give us those times, like Elijah under the tree where you feed us, and you invite us to nap and be rested. And then you also fortify us through that time. And so, we pray Lord that you would help us to continue to rest, to really just to sit under your wings, God, and to really enjoy time with you and to also use those times to be propelled forward as we hear from you, what you would have us do, who you would have us be, how you would have us be, and who you would like us to be in relationship with, Lord, and what you have prepared us for such a time as this.

And we’re just so excited, Lord, we’re so excited. We’re so grateful. We’re so grateful for your love and we just express our gratitude to you, Lord, and we are thankful to be able to continue on in our relationships with you and with one another. And we thank you for all these things in Jesus’ name. Amen.


Cara: Wow. Afrika and Dishon shared a lot of good stuff in this interview. I particularly appreciated the practice of curiosity that Afrika mentioned. What jumped out at you, Sarah?

Sarah: I really resonated with Dishon’s comment about the need for church folks to move away from the perception that there needs to be this divide between us and the world. He mentioned that in scripture, the circles between those who follow Christ and those who did not overlap quite a bit.

And I think that also connects well with Afrika’s comment that we need to unlearn what we think the church is and not see non-Christians as other, but as all of God’s kids. She posed the question, what does it mean to be a community of believers? And I want to reflect upon what does it mean to be a community of people from all beliefs and backgrounds without ulterior motives.

Cara: Thank you. That is a rich question to reflect on. And even as we come into this new year and embrace this idea of new beginnings, can we embrace a new way of thinking about community, a new way of thinking about a community of people, as you say, from all beliefs and backgrounds without these ulterior motives?

Thank you for sharing that, Sarah. And I hope that our listeners reflect on that question.

We do, in GCI, have a lot of great resources that are available as we learn and grow in ministry participation together. One of those resources is Grace Communion Seminary.

Sarah:  Grace Communion Seminary now offers a seven-course diploma of Christian ministry with a focus on discipleship, worship, or witness designed for GCI Avenue champions.  Visit www.gcs.edu for more information.

Cara: Friends, we really appreciate you listening to the GC Podcast. If you like what you heard, go ahead and give us a rating wherever you listened to this podcast. It does help us spread the word and invite others to join in on the conversation. Until next time, keep living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast.  We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, healthy churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

 

 

Gospel Reverb – Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner

Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner

Video unavailable (video not checked).

Listen in as host, Anthony Mullins, and Kenneth Tanner, Pastor of Holy Redeemer Church in Rochester, Michigan, unpack these lectionary passages:

February 6 – 5th Sunday after the Epiphany
Luke 5:1-11   “Gone Fishing!”
(14:38)

February 13 – 6th Sunday after the Epiphany
Luke 6:17-26 “Blessed Are You”
(28:03)

February 20 – 7th Sunday after the Epiphany
Luke 6:27-38 “Love Your Enemies”
(39:15)

February 27 – Transfiguration Sunday
Luke 9:28-36 “Listen to Him!”
(54:23)

If you get a chance to rate and review the show, that helps a lot. And invite your fellow preachers and Bible lovers to join us!

Follow us on Spotify, Google Podcast, and Apple Podcast.

Program Transcript


Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.


Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view.

I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and I’m really excited to welcome this month’s guest, Father Kenneth Tanner. Kenneth is a pastor of Holy Redeemer Church in Rochester, Michigan. He’s been a contributor to the Huffington Post and the Clarion Journal with Brad Jersak. And he’s a teacher at the Open Table conferences along with several other Gospel Reverb friends, and in my opinion, is a much-needed voice in our national discourse on matters of faith.

Kenneth, thank you for joining us today and welcome to the podcast.

Kenneth: Hey Anthony. It’s great to be with you. I’ve been excited to meet people from your church and the movement surrounding the Trinitarian rediscovery that occurred in your movement.

And it’s one of the great stories of the last hundred years in the Church. So, it’s a beautiful thing, and I’m glad to be in friendship with several of you, including Ted Johnson.

Anthony: As a recovering legalist, it is good news, brother! Thank you for that. For those in our listening audience, who may not be familiar with you and your work, would you mind sharing a bit about yourself?

Kenneth: Yeah. I’m I was born and raised in the South by Southerners. And so, all the cultural good, which is deep and beautiful, and all the cultural bad, as it were. And as a Pentecostal from multi-generational Pentecostal families on both sides. Both sides of the family have been in North America from the British Isles for a long time.

My father was killed in Vietnam when I was four.  My mother, about five years later, remarried a youth pastor in the Church of God, which is in Cleveland, Tennessee, the Pentecostal denomination I was a part of growing up. And her father was a pastor in that movement as well. And he eventually, he took us to south Florida from Orlando, but then moved us to California.

So, I spent 20 years, I went to high school, college, got married, we had six of our seven kids in California. We went to Oral Roberts University. That’s where I met my wife was at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa. First charismatic university of the world, which had an amazing faculty because people retired from Missouri and Brown and other places, and went to teach [there], from Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist backgrounds. So, the faculty were wonderful. The spiritual experience, there was – it has many stories, but in the nineties (I got married in 1988) and throughout the nineties, I was working in newspapers and for companies as a writer, mostly, and I was also training for ministry. And I was ordained in 1992 as a deacon, and then in 1996 as a priest in the Charismatic Episcopal Church, which is an Anglican adjacent denomination. Many former Pentecostals, third way evangelicals, Wesleyans, people who are raised in free churches who discovered the sacraments, and the liturgies, and the scriptural exegesis, and the priority for the poor that is encapsulated in the first Christians, and we (while remaining Pentecostal) embrace those things.

And I’ve been fortunate in my mentors over the years. I spent six years in Chicago with my family. We had one of our children there. I worked for a magazine called Touchstone: A Journal of Mere Christianity. And then I was called to be the pastor of Holy Redeemer, which is just north of Detroit, almost 17 years ago.

And I’ve been the pastor here since. So that’s maybe too long, but a pretty brief introduction.

Anthony: Thanks, that works. And one of the things I’ve admired about you as I’ve followed your work and teachings and writings is just the high ecclesiology. You love the church and it seems to me…

Kenneth: I do! The whole church.

Anthony: The whole church, and it’s still the epicenter of God’s redemptive work on the earth. And I’m grateful.

Before we get into the four Bible passages this month, I’d like to ask a couple of questions. I’ve heard you talk a lot about the early church fathers, the patristics. And I’m just curious why in 2022, should we bother to listen to the ancient voices of Irenaeus, and Athanasius, and Gregory of Nazianzus, Origen, or Tertullian and the list goes on and on.

Why should we bother here today?

Kenneth: Yeah, without doubt their vision of Jesus. This is the first thing. These people’s imaginations and lives are just radiant with the human who’s God and his person fills their heart and mind. And whether they’re in the Greek-speaking or the Latin-speaking, ancient near east, or Europe, and in north Africa, these are people who are absolutely captivated and astonished by the person of Jesus. That’s the first thing.

The second thing is their fascination with Christ flows from their reading of scripture. By that, the Old Testament and then (of course, the New, but primarily the Old Testament) and how they “see Christ on every page” as Luther said.

It’s the way they read the scriptures that’s also really important. And they’re not perfect, but they’re comprehensive, their vision is, I feel. And the closer I get and the more conversations I have, I realized that in a lot of (and I can only speak about the American church) but in the American church, our understanding of Christ is very shallow. I hate to say it, but (I don’t like to condemn; one of our scriptures talks about this today) there is a real shallowness to way too much Christianity in America. And I think the fathers help ground us, take us into the deep water. I’m mixing metaphors there, but yeah, they give us a fullness of apprehension of the person of Jesus that I think is sorely lacking.

Anthony: Yes. I was listening to Brian Zahn last week, and he mentioned that even how the early church fathers, doctors, theologians teach us to pray because our prayer life tends to be shallow too. And I just think there’s so much to gain there.

You talked about their desire to point to Jesus, the way that he captivated them. And I want to go a little deeper there. I was listening to your podcast this week with the guys from Crackers and Grape Juice, and you were talking about your experience being present to the grieving families in the aftermath of the murders there at Oxford High School, which I think is in your parish. I won’t ask you about the specifics of that day, because I know that’s hallowed ground, sacred territory.

But what I want to ask you is, would you share with our listeners how the humanity, the incarnation of Jesus informs how you respond, serve, and be present to people who are experiencing horrific trauma and sorrow?

Kenneth: Yeah, so the high school is about 12 miles from my house. And I serve, besides being the pastor at Redeemer, I do volunteer service as the chaplain for the Oakland County Sheriff’s office, which the sheriff had jurisdiction of Oxford and the town that I live in and probably half of our county there. We have some city police agencies, but the Sheriff’s office covers most of the county.

And I was texted, would I go to this Meijer grocery store where they were reuniting parents with the students from the school, which was about half a mile from the grocery store. I wasn’t the only chaplain that was there from our chaplain Corps from the Sheriff’s office, but there were other clergy that came. And we were walking around, just trying to be observant about students or teachers or parents or grocery store workers or first responders that looked like they needed some presence and standing next to in this kind of thing.

I think in all of these kinds of situations, it is a benefit to us that the God who is human has experienced and participated in everything that it means to be human. And I think John 11 in particular helps us, the death of Lazarus. And what we see Jesus, both as God and man, experiencing and the anguish of God in the flesh of Jesus and the anger of God in the humanity of our Lord at death. So, there’s weeping. But there’s also, he’s deeply troubled because this is his friend and he’s not just weeping for Lazarus. He’s weeping for everyone. And he’s weeping for all of his human brothers and sisters who have been subjected to this enemy.

And of course, from the context of suffering, he is resurrection and life. And from the context of being troubled deeply and from weeping, he is the voice, “Lazarus come forth.” So yes, his life and that story (and many others), help us, as we try to traverse these great sadnesses, and traumas that we experience as humans.

Anthony: Yeah, I’m just grateful for a God who enters into the madness and is present to us. He continues to be Emmanuel. We’re praying for you, brother, as you continue to minister to people who are grieving right now.

It’s that time! We’re here to look at four Bible passages that we’re going to unpack together.

The first one’s going to be Luke 5:1-11, “Gone Fishing.” It’s for 5th Sunday after the Epiphany on February 6th. Luke 6:17-26 “Blessed Are You,” the 6th Sunday after the Epiphany, February 13th. Then Luke 6:27-38 “Love Your Enemies,” the 7th Sunday after the Epiphany on February 20th. And Luke 9:28-36, this is for Transfiguration Sunday, “Listen to Him.”

I’m going to read our first pericope, Luke 5:1-11. It comes from the NRSV. It’s a Revised Common Lectionary passage for February the 6th. It reads:

Once while Jesus was standing beside the lake of Gennesaret, and the crowd was pressing in on him to hear the word of God, he saw two boats there at the shore of the lake; the fishermen had gone out of them and were washing their nets. He got into one of the boats, the one belonging to Simon, and asked him to put out a little way from the shore. Then he sat down and taught the crowds from the boat. When he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, “Put out into the deep water and let down your nets for a catch.” Simon answered, “Master, we have worked all night long but have caught nothing. Yet if you say so, I will let down the nets.” When they had done this, they caught so many fish that their nets were beginning to break. So they signaled their partners in the other boat to come and help them. And they came and filled both boats, so that they began to sink. But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Go away from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man!” For he and all who were with him were amazed at the catch of fish that they had taken; and so also were James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. Then Jesus said to Simon, “Do not be afraid; from now on you will be catching people.” When they had brought their boats to shore, they left everything and followed him.

As an aside, I couldn’t help, but think of Lionel Richie when I said, “all night long,” but that’s an 80’s music reference. So, my first question: Simon Peter’s response was “yet, if you say so I will,” and that seems remarkable to me considering the fact that they’d been fishing all night and had no luck. What can we take away from this?

Kenneth: I actually got really emotional reading this morning, and I am now too. I think, it’s just beautifully set. I love the detail of the lake and that Jesus has come down and the boats and the nets. It’s just so vivid.

Jesus is a walking, talking tree of life, and Peter has seen. He’s healing the sick. He’s casting, he’s setting the oppressed free. This is the one who says, “Where are we to go? You’re the one who has the words of life.”

And he’s a professional fisherman. He and the Zebedee’s are not poor people. These are businesses that have thrived. The father of John and James has made a good living fishing. But, when you can’t catch any fish, it’s not just that you can’t make any money, but there’s people who are desperately hungry that need you to catch the fish, so they have food. And so, it’s a real crisis. It’s not just about running the business. It’s about, these are families dedicated to the feeding of the people around Galilee.

And so, it’s a crisis, that they haven’t caught any fish. He is willing because of the character and what he has seen of this human, that if he asked him. Even though he knows he’s not a fisherman, he’s a carpenter and a teacher, rabbi. He knows him as a rabbi. If you tell me, I’ll go. And that’s beautiful.

Anthony: Yeah. I know a lot of people right now who probably feel like their nets are coming up empty. And I’m curious, Kenneth what encouragement can we share with those who frankly are feeling let down by God?

Kenneth: Yeah. I do think that sometimes what we need are people in our life who see the abundance that is everywhere, even though we might be experiencing scarcity and who can point out where our nets are full in areas that we’re not paying attention to, because the need of not having a particular net full is so pressing in on us, as it can be in small and large ways. And so, it’s helpful to have companions in the journey who point to the abundances in the world that always outpace the lacks and the scarcities.

And of course, raised around a charismatic setting, sometimes there were a kind of denial of lacks, and it’s just about recognizing the abundance and you just need to tap into this or that, or the other thing. You don’t have enough faith or there’s something that you’re not doing. It’s always on you, this lack, the scarcity is your fault.

So, I’m not talking about that sort of thing. I’m talking about within a clear-eyed view of the situation, of lack and not a denial of it, people who point us to trust that God has what it is we need.

And the timing of that may not be what we are expecting. But it is God who is the source of life and light, and he’s infinite. And sometimes, it’s also about sharing our abundance. This is what God is inviting us into. His abundance is sharing our abundance with those who have lack.

Anthony: I think I’m the evil one speaks fluent scarcity. And it seems to me, the Christian walk by the Spirit is having (to use Pauline language) the eyes of our heart open to see the abundance that is ours in Christ.

So, Kenneth, I’ve heard a lot of sermons, too many sermons frankly, from this pericope that give me sort of like the seven step process of evangelism, catching people and here’s the bait you need to use and that sort of thing. Please tell us there’s a holistic Christological way of thinking and acting toward people who don’t know Jesus.

Kenneth: Yeah. He says set out into the deep, and that they’re going to catch people. And the participle there is catch them alive, from the tumult, from the storm, from the deep. And I do think that the disposition of a lot of Christians towards people who don’t share our faith, fails to recognize that Jesus has already related himself to every person we ever meet in two fundamental ways before we share anything about the good news with them. And that is that he’s the creator of every individual that we come into contact with, as he is the Word by which, all things were spoken into being and the hand by which God creates. And there’s that but also, he’s become the human brother by entering the womb of the virgin and by walking and living among us as a human being, he’s also the human brother of every person that we encounter. Again, before anything about the gospel is either witnessed by the way we live or heard by the way we talk about him.

So what can happen is that we think of these people as somehow unrelated to Christ, and we need to bring about relationships. They are related to Christ. Of course, God wants to have an intimate connection with them and for them to understand the fullness of this relationship. Hopefully by the way that we live and hopefully by the way that we speak we can participate in what God is doing, but remember God is the one who fills the nets. God is the one who saves. God is the one who causes us to catch people alive. So, we are just participants and (silly to say, just participants) but yes, we are participants in the work of God. I think there’s also sometimes this idea that we’re the one; if we don’t do X, Y, and Z, people are not going to be caught alive. And I just think, if all the human beings who God loves and wants to be in relationship with them are going to be redeemed, it’s got to be God’s work.

Anthony: Amen, brother. Even though it was well-intended, I can remember being on short-term mission trips, where the conversation went something like this: be prayed up because we’re going to take Jesus to these people we’re going to go serve. And I think about that now, and I just cringe because Jesus, he’s already there at work, wherever we go, in the community, in our neighborhood, with our neighbors, he’s there by his Spirit. And that’s such good news! That takes the burden off of me that he’s the Savior of the world not me.

Kenneth: And just quickly, it’s a little bit deeper. In Matthew 25, he says he is the poor. He is the prisoner. He is the hungry, he is the naked. He is the foreigner or the immigrant and so forth. So, we’re going to meet Jesus, I think is maybe perhaps a better way of framing it.

Anthony: Yeah. And what you just said is going to be an important identifier as we talk in other passages about blessing those who are poor, those are hungry because Jesus is there.

Kenneth, our next passage is Luke 6:17 – 26. It’s the Revised Common Lectionary passage for February the 13th. Would you read it for us please?

Kenneth: Yes.

He came down with them and stood on a level place, with a great crowd of his disciples and a great multitude of people from all Judea, Jerusalem, and the coast of Tyre and Sidon. They had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases; and those who were troubled with unclean spirits were cured. And all in the crowd were trying to touch him, for power came out from him and healed all of them.

Then he looked up at his disciples and said:

“Blessed are you who are poor,
    for yours is the kingdom of God.
“Blessed are you who are hungry now,
    for you will be filled.
“Blessed are you who weep now,
    for you will laugh.

 “Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you on account of the Son of Man.  Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, for surely your reward is great in heaven; for that is what their ancestors did to the prophets. 

“But woe to you who are rich,
    for you have received your consolation.
“Woe to you who are full now,
    for you will be hungry.
“Woe to you who are laughing now,
    for you will mourn and weep.

“Woe to you when all speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets.

Anthony: Kenneth, if you were preaching this text, what would be your focus?

Kenneth: I probably would contrast – blessing and woes are very common in the scriptures. And there are precedents for announcing these blessings and these woes in other parts of the Old Testament. And I would go through some of those and talk about how they similarly tend to pronounce an announced blessing on those who have not and woes on those who have, and how the foundation of those two things, the blessings on the have-nots come from their condition of dependence on God.

The poor are dependent on God. And the rich can be – don’t necessarily have to be (it’s the same with the poor, but most often the poor are dependent and recognize their dependence on God) too often, the rich assume and presume that they’re independent from God. And this is the foundation of the state these folks find themselves in and what God’s announcing to them in this moment.

Anthony: Let’s keep scratching that itch. What do you make of those who are blessed? You’ve touched on it, but the poor? In some paradigms, that’s not God’s blessing. The hungry? Those who weep? Those who have been rejected? What do we take away from this?

Kenneth: Yeah, for those who may have been raised even in Christian circles with a teaching that people who are favored, wealthy, secure, and so forth, have found favor, are that way because they have done things or because God is pleased with them. And encountering people who are unwell or under-resourced or who are destitute, that they somehow have angered God or have not done the things they were supposed to do, and this is a punishment for what they have done, or their ancestors have done and so forth and so on. And I don’t think that’s either the wisdom of the scriptures or of the gospel or of the Apostolic teaching.

There are people who are desperately poor who are in deep covenantal relationship and connection with God. And there are people who are quite resourced and wealthy, who also enjoy that same connection with God. And there are folks who are struggling who – there’s this kind of Mesopotamian, ancient understanding of the gods where you better behave in this way or you better sacrifice in this way and so forth. Or you’re in trouble or going to be in trouble or the reason you’re in trouble is, you haven’t.

But if you do all the right things and you make all the right sacrifices and so forth, God will be pleased with you, and then you’ll have everything you need. That is not the gospel. That is not the character of the God that we worship. And so, we have to identify that sort of striving and that sort of attitude and disposition where we’re jockeying for position and favor with God as a false understanding of the relationship between God and human beings.

And we have to do that all the time. We have to do it in the church first because it’s amazing how many people go to church and have a Mesopotamian view of God, rather than the view of God that comes from the revelation of the prophets, and the stories of the patriarchs, and the Psalms of David, and the apostolic witness.

Anthony: And all you have to do is look at the life of the apostles. By any measure, that doesn’t look like human flourishing, even though it is. It absolutely is. As I was looking back over these woes, as you’re reading them, the rich, those who are full now, those who are laughing now, I couldn’t help but think of America.

Are we in trouble? What do we take away from these woes?

Kenneth: Yeah, I think that’s how they are precisely intended to be read and understood, as a warning from love to the object of love. It is love telling us, “I love you. Be careful.” Because this is addressed to us, the woes.

We should see the words addressed to us and addressed because God wants us to thrive and be alive and to be well. And recognizing our dependence upon God in humility is so vital to thriving. And it is the nature of the world, the fallen world, to make us dichotomize poor and rich in the way I was talking about earlier. And to lean on all of these things instead of the wisdom of God and the abundance of God. We can be deceived that everything is well with us because we’re using these things as measures of how we’re doing or how we’re doing with God.

And it’s not just Christians that do this, of course. Everyone, every human has this tendency. And I think this is, “Wake up. Watch yourself because I love you.” It’s like a child approaching a hot stove or getting too close to the street.  It’s that voice that says, “Yes, come back to me. Stop moving in that direction.”

Anthony: That’s such an important thing you’ve said because there are several warning passages in the New Testament, but God can only speak and act out of who he is.  And he is love; that’s all he can do. Go ahead.

Kenneth: This is the same one who is going to go on to say, “Love your enemies.” And this is the same one who says, “Don’t judge.” This is the one who says, “Forgive.” This is the one who is described as mercy and forgiveness, and so he can only be announcing these woes from that position, his core disposition, which is to save.

Anthony: Amen.

Our next pericope is going to be in Luke 6:27 – 38 from the NRSV. It is the revised common lectionary passage for February the 20th, which is the final Sunday of epiphany.

“But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap; for the measure you give will be the measure you get back.”

Alright Kenneth, was God making a suggestion when he said, “Love your enemies”?

We have this thing that some have called the disappearing middle in America because we’re choosing sides. It’s the donkeys and the elephants, the red states, blue states, vaccinated, unvaccinated, rich, poor. And of course, the list just goes on and on to the glee of the evil one. So-called enemies are everywhere.

So, what’s the way forward?

Kenneth: Yeah. Polarization is – I think the pandemic, the plague reveals. Plagues reveal the ways in which we’ve brought judgment upon ourselves, and the plagues have revealed that we’re deeply divided. Whether it’s the pandemic of COVID or school shootings or whatever it is, we other each other. I think the first place to start (if I start to sound like a broken record, it’s intentional) the place we start with thinking about what it means to be human is with Jesus.  And what it means to be God is Jesus.

And this is someone who from the cross, as he is actively being murdered, spat on, mocked, abused, who is forgiving those who are harming him and causing him pain. And this is the one who tells us, love your enemies. He does this. This is the very nature of what it means to be human.

This is the image in which you were made, is to be a forgiver. The image in which the human is made is to love the enemy. And so, surrender to this capacity in which we were made in that image, is vital for every human being.

And this is the God who doesn’t have enemies from his side of the equation. From our side of the equation, he does have enemies in us sometimes, and in others.  But from his side, he sets a table in the presence of our enemies and invites everyone, invites our enemy to that table.

We’re talking about an infinite God, so we could talk about this for a while, but I do think that is the heart of it.  We put these labels; we love labels. And God says, instead, by the Spirit in the church, there’s neither male nor female, neither slave nor free, neither Jew nor Greek, neither vaccinated nor unvaccinated, neither Democrat or Republican, neither liberal or conservative. It’s just a different way of thinking and just a different way of embodying what it means to be human and a different disposition and heart.

And I loved what you said. You didn’t say the media is the one who’s fomenting this, you didn’t say political parties are the ones that were fomenting this division. You said the enemy of our soul is the one who’s delighted by these divisions. And so that’s what’s behind all of this and he is the one who accuses. He is the one who divides.

Anthony: Yeah, labels are lazy from my standpoint. It starts with the second thing about a person, not the first thing, the second thing. Oh, they’re rich, they’re poor, they’re Democrat or Republican, instead of, they are a beloved child of God. And it’s the way we see.

I love what you said, because what you’re encouraging us to do is to be who we are, truly in him. Like Paul’s telling us to be reconciled because you are reconciled to God in Jesus Christ, right?

Kenneth: We’re made in the image of humility. You are made in the image of forgiveness. What did it say? It said, he’s kind to the ungodly. We’re made in the image of kindness.

Anthony: Jesus tells us to give to those who beg, to lend without expectation of a return.

But it seems to me, brother, that we’re spending way too much time judging those we’re seeking to give to or not seeking to give to. Why do we struggle so mightily not to judge people who are in need?

Kenneth: This is a classical problem. Chrysostom, the golden mouth preacher, said, “Your coffers, your bank, your treasure is in the bellies of the poor.”

If you really want to invest what you have, it belongs to them. I think first of all, it’s the idea that our possessing it is first. No, what we have belongs, not just to God, it belongs to our neighbor. This goes mightily against our education and the grain of our culture and our society to think that what I have belongs to others. Private ownership and whatever that means in law and philosophy and so forth and so on, in the gospel those boundaries are raised.

And it is about calling people into a voluntary participation. There’s no point in coercing people or forcing people into participating in their creative nature and in the Trinitarian life, in the abundance and generosity of God. Political systems and so forth that are based on coercing sharing are just as destructive to the human person as anything else. But a voluntary participation in the generosity of God.

And the practical question that you’re asking is, why do I see someone in need and just not want to just meet the need rather than wondering how they got there, what was the thing that made this happen to them, and so forth and so on.  Which according to the gospel, is absolutely irrelevant.

You hear these things, like you shouldn’t give something to someone who’s going to waste the resource or whatever. That’s none of our business. We’re just to meet the needs as they come into our purview and as we have the resources and to share.  And we’re not to take inventory of the persons that we are helping,

Anthony: It says give, and it will be given to you. And I know the Lord has given to you Kenneth. For a moment, I’d just like to ask you to make it personal. How have you experienced the extravagant generosity of God in your life?

Kenneth: I hope it doesn’t sound too simple, but what I’m most grateful for is the (to the extent that it’s been granted to me) is to be astonished with the person of Jesus and to constantly be amazed by something I haven’t seen before, like the four and living creatures are always seeing something of God they haven’t seen before and lavishing praise.

That’s how I feel a lot of the time. And I delight in nothing more than sharing what I’ve seen. Of course, you can’t give what you haven’t received, and you recognize that you’re receiving it from somewhere outside of yourself and that you get to give that. The apostle says, “Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have,” here.

And I don’t want to be cliche, but the greatest thing that we can offer to another human being is our vision of Christ. And yes, which is not to say, don’t give somebody five. Yes, give them $5 or a shirt or whatever. Jesus, he literally means give him the coat.

Not to spiritualize it, but also with the coat, I can share my astonishment with the person of Jesus. And I do it in a nonjudgmental way, without consideration of their position or my position, because no matter how poor someone is you encounter, there’s an area where you’re poor, and so forth and so on.

Anthony: Yeah, I appreciate what you said about not over spiritualizing it, because all we have to do is look at the true human Jesus and how frequently he met the felt need of people first. Like, I think of the leper that he touched; the dignity that must have been experienced in his bones to be touched before he was even healed is remarkable. And it shows us the way.

Kenneth: Recently the Pope (I don’t know if you saw the story) Francis – a leprous man was presented to him, and he just walked straight up to him and embraced him, with this (from what I understand) massive growth on his neck area. And he was bearing witness to the feeling of love and inclusion and grace and healing that occurred just because he didn’t judge him, wasn’t holding anything back from being connected to this man.

Anthony: “You will be my witnesses.” That’s what it looks like.

Kenneth, our final pericope is Luke 9: 28 – 36. It is the passage and reading for transfiguration Sunday. Would you read it please?

Kenneth: Yes.

Now about eight days after these sayings Jesus took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. And while he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him. They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions were weighed down with sleep; but since they had stayed awake, they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. Just as they were leaving him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said. While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were terrified as they entered the cloud. Then from the cloud came a voice that said, “This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!” When the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and in those days told no one any of the things they had seen.

Anthony: For whatever it’s worth, I really enjoy listening to you read. So, what’s the big deal about transfiguration Sunday and why do so many Christians choose to celebrate the day every year, you think?

Kenneth: You’re asking the wrong person because I will keep you for an hour. The chapter on transfiguration in my book that’s coming out is about 5,500 words. There’s so much here. And of course, Peter remembers this. That’s really interesting to me that Peter knows he’s going to be executed.

And the church is in a terrible state of persecution, and everyone’s suffering. And he says to them (this is in 1 Peter) he said, “I want you to remember something.” And he doesn’t go to the cross (where Peter wasn’t – remember John and the women were the only ones that were there) but he goes to someplace he was, and he goes to the transfiguration, to Tabor, and to this vision.

And he says, we didn’t devise a myth when we bore witness to what we saw on the mountain. In other words, we didn’t take these great figures from our history, as a people and weave them together with Christ to make up a beautiful story that elevates Jesus. No, we saw this happen in the real world. And then the conversation, what was the conversation about? The conversation was about the cross, because the conversation the human God is always having with the law and the prophets is about self-giving love. It is about the God who loves the world and who lays down his life for love of the world.

And of course, they’re on the mountain and the cloud descends, the Spirit of God, and they hear the voice of the Father, a Trinitarian moment. This is my Son, my chosen. Listen to him. And then Moses and Elijah are gone and it’s just Jesus, which I think is also trying to tell us something. There’s the preeminence of Christ, the law and the prophets have been taken up into him and transfigured in his flesh, inscripturated flesh of Jesus.

Anyway, like I said, I can talk about it for a long time.

Anthony: As we think about this theophany, and you’ve already touched on it, maybe there’s some more that you want to say, but just as I’ve looked at the Greek in this, it’s almost like Moses and Elijah and Jesus have had an ongoing conversation, but here are the patriarchs just showing up on the scene.

That seems a little abnormal, so what do we take away?

Kenneth: One of the ways that I think about it is time bending. I think the transfiguration is about the resurrection. I’m the God of the living, not the dead.

So, Moses and Elijah are here embodied again in the world long after their deaths. This isn’t telepathy that’s going on here. They’re speaking, you have tongues. You have to have a tongue to speak.

This is a revelation that death doesn’t have anything to do with Moses and Elijah anymore. Or of anyone who is in connection and relationship with Christ and want to inhabit this conversation of self-sacrificial love. And so, one could think about it as this moment is Christ and Moses on Sinai, Christ and Elijah on Sinai and so forth and so on.

And it’s converging on this, because here we’re dealing with the eternal one who, every moment when he shares time with us, he’s bringing his eternity to you with him. So, we have to get out of the chronological space with it.

And obviously, Elijah and Moses are the law and the prophets. And it goes to say that all that is in the law and all that’s in the prophets is taken up into our Lord. And so, we don’t leave them behind when we follow Jesus, but recognize that he’s their fulfillment. Including of course, what he’s just said earlier in the gospel, the priority about the poor and loving your neighbor and loving your enemy, which is what it means to be God.

Anthony: Yeah. As we wrap up our time in this particular reading, it says, “They saw his glory.” And glory is, though it’s a small word, it’s big. It’s weighty. We see it in the Old and the New [Testaments.] What are we really talking about when we talk about the glory of God revealed in Jesus?

Kenneth: Yeah. Isaiah’s writes, “It filled the temple, the train of his robe.” [Isaiah 6] And then, the seraphim and the cherubim flying around, it’s indescribable. I mean, the light that is coming from Jesus in the transfiguration is not a reflection. He is radiating.

In fact, I’m sitting across from an icon of the transfiguration right now. These rays that are coming up from, coming from inside the reality of who he is and the uncreated light of heaven. Not the light of the star, not the light of the sun, or the light that reflects from the sun on the moon, but THE light, the source of light.

The light of the transfiguration that shines from Jesus is not like the light that helps us to see color and shape and texture and so forth. The uncreated light is the light, the glory that enables to see truly the nature of the things that we behold and, reveals to us, if we were in the midst of it, the things that we cannot see of the glory of the world. There’s a lot of the glory of God that’s hidden in this fallen world.

And in everything that is, exists, is somewhat fallen from the fullness of what it was in creation. And the glory of God is to the revealing of the true nature of everything that God creates. And so, the uncreated light helps us to see what normally we cannot see: the verity, and the goodness, and the beauty, (verity just meaning truth) the goodness, and beauty of things and people.

And so, the resurrection, which we can live now – the Orthodox, “let us love our enemies and forgive all by the resurrection” – it just gives us a different perspective. That light, that glory gives us a different perspective on reality than we normally would have.

Anthony: You mentioned that you have a forthcoming book that has a chapter about the transfiguration. For those who are interested, when is it coming out? What’s it called?

Kenneth: Well, this is a long – I’ll make a short story of it. I’ve been working on this for about 12 years. And in the last several years, people [have said], “You have got to do this, you’ve got to do this.” And I spend a lot of time in pastoral work, and so writing is always something I’m doing on the side. But as it happens, I’m any day now, getting ready to sign a two-book contract with Baker Books. The first book is called Vulnerable God.

It’s about Jesus. And it takes the transfiguration as a feast of the first Christians, of the church for a long time, it takes all of the (you wouldn’t really know this, if you weren’t a liturgical, sacramental Christian), but it takes all of the moments of the life of Christ that the church calendar elevates, the sacred year elevates, and where we worship specific events: Ascension Transfiguration, Easter, Temptation, and so forth, presentation at the temple and so forth, Christmas, the Incarnation. And I use those to try to illustrate the vulnerability and humility of God in becoming human. And how this humility is the essence of what it means to be human, but also humility is the essence of what it means to be God.

And so, it’s a journey through all of those feasts, which are commemorations of realities from the life of Jesus as a human, including the Ascension where he remains human forever and eternity, and just tries to disclose what we have seen of his glory in these events.

And then there’s a follow-up book called Beautiful Faith, which is an expedition of the Apostle’s creed. But it’s actually going to take a moment for these books to come out the way we’re planning it. But anyway in 2023, Vulnerable God is supposed to appear with Baker Books.

Anthony: I’m anticipating it. As someone who is new to liturgical faith and experiencing the sacredness of the calendar and how beautiful it is, the rhythms of the Christian life through the calendar has been eye opening. Advent has taken on new life for me. I am reading Fleming Rutledge’s book on Advent. And it’s just wow! It’s staggering.

Kenneth: You’re reading the right person.

Anthony: Brother, I thank you for being a part of this conversation. You have been a blessing to me. And so, it was a great joy to invite you onto this podcast and for you to say yes. So, thank you for being a part of it.

Kenneth: Yeah, my privilege. I’m so grateful to be with you.

Anthony: And as we typically end, I’d like to ask for you to say a prayer over our listeners, especially those, as we talked about earlier, who are grieving, maybe feeling like their nets are coming up empty, just in a place of sorrow would you specifically pray for them?

Kenneth: Amen.

Christ our God, we, all of us, acknowledge our poverty. We thank you that you became poor as we are poor in order to endow us with all the fullness and richness that you share and have shared from before time and forever with your Father and Spirit.

We ask that you would come and meet us in our poverty as the one who is poor in spirit, who is blessed because he’s poor in spirit. We ask that you would come to us in the storms of this life and be our anchor. And we thank you for entering the desert of our hunger and feeding us. We thank you for being the one who goes willingly into the pain and suffering of the cross to be in solidarity with us in death and to rescue us from the grave, raising us back up into the life you share forever with the Father and the Spirit, raising our human nature, and all of us together with you into the very life of God.

Help us to remember and have many reminders of the resurrection in this world that is deceptive and divisive and challenging. Give us, as I bless Tate’s father, many reminders of the resurrection in the days and weeks and months and years that lie ahead.

Help us to see abundance where it feels like there’s only a lack. Help us to see you in all the pages of the scriptures. Especially these texts that we were privileged to meditate on today. Help us always to find you there and in the bread and wine on the table that you set in the presence of our enemies, where we are surrounded by all of the heavenly hosts and all who are not dead but alive in you for you send us into the world to catch men alive. And that’s a participation in your work.

In the name of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, we pray. Amen.


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Sermon for February 6, 2022 — 5th Sunday after Epiphany

Speaking Of Life 4011 | The Story Since Day One

There is power in storytelling. From the stories, we will tell our friends after work to the bedtime stories we tell our kids before they sleep. From the beginning of time, humans have passed on our histories through the stories told by family and friends. To this day, Jesus’ story continues to be shared with everyone. He inspires us with the love and peace that will continue to grow in our hearts as we move along the world.

Program Transcript


Speaking Of Life 4011 | The Story Since Day One
Greg Williams

Do you ever have a commercial jingle or a theme song from a tv show that you can remember perfectly years later? Decades might pass, you will have forgotten libraries of information, but you can still flawlessly recite the opening song. For example, the jingle from the old TV show, The Brady Bunch… “Here’s a story, of a lovely lady, who was bringing up three very lovely girls…”

Stories draw us in, they make us pay attention, they help us remember.

We see Paul using a story for the same reasons. Though, his story is much more meaningful. In his first letter to believers in Corinth Paul wrote:

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:3-6 (ESV)
       
                                                

At first glance, this may look like more of Paul’s theological writing—abstract concepts in the early formulation of faith. But scholars have looked more closely at the language in the last hundred years or so and they saw an intrinsic rhythm and meter of the words: “that Christ died…he was buried…he was raised.” What they found was an ancient credal formula—a compact, memorizable statement of faith that was probably around long before 1 Corinthians was written.

Notice how Paul set this up: I delivered to you what I received. He was sharing something he had received—this creed, this jingle, this poem—something that was already in place and most likely part of his discipleship process.

We are seeing here some of the first “hymns” the church ever sang. Remember there was no internet and a significant part of the first audience was illiterate. This would be the way new believers learned faith, similar to a memory verse or a simple song, or a creed in today’s churches.

Just like we can sing some of the words to The Brady Bunch jingle, so the early believers could tell the story of Christ in song, or poem form. The story was circulated in such a way that people could remember it and share it. We still tell the story today—Jesus is of first importance. His life, death, resurrection, and ascension are the story we share each year as we worship our way through the Christian Calendar. Each year the calendar reminds us of the story of Jesus—the same story that has been shared since day one.

I am Greg Williams, Speaking of Life.

Psalm 138 ∙ Isaiah 6:1-8, 9-13 ∙ 1 Corinthians 15:1-11 ∙ Luke 5:1-11

The theme for this 5th Sunday after Epiphany is speak the word. In the call to worship Psalm, the poet speaks the echoing praises of God the creator and Lord. Isaiah 6 tells us about Isaiah’s encounter with God and his command to go and speak. 1 Corinthians 15 holds some of the earliest words spoken by the Christian community—possibly the first creed. Our sermon comes from Luke 5 in which Jesus calls his inner circle of disciples to speak the word alongside him.

Put Out into the Deep Water

Luke 5:1-11 ESV

Read Luke 5:1-11 ESV.

You may have grown up with them in your town: The factory workers and trades people after a long shift, headed home with their lunch pails and hard hats. They were blowing off steam, cracking their knuckles, stopping for a smoke. As kids we watched them with fascination and maybe a little bit of fear—someday maybe I’ll be big and tough like that.

We were hypnotized by their worn hands and strong language, wondering what our own future would be like. They had a look of fatigue and focus, utterly at home in what they were doing and exhausted by a hard shift put in.

This is likely how Peter, James and John looked the day Jesus encountered them at the beach. They’d been up all night dropping their nets, over and over and coming back with nothing. So not only were they exhausted, but they were also frustrated, calculating how they would make up for this lost time in the subsistence living they made. “We can’t lose a whole night this month!”

Jesus does exactly what you don’t want to do in that situation. Here he is approaching highly skilled laborers who are likely frustrated and in a bad mood, and he tells them what to do! It is like you going up to the factory workers at the end of their shift saying, “Hey all, hard shift? You know what you should do…” You can only imagine the reception.

Add to this the fact that some of these guys already knew Jesus, and they knew he wasn’t a fisherman. And here he is telling them how to do their jobs. Tradespersons are very careful not to cross such lines – car mechanics don’t tell journeyman plumbers how to fit pipe; truck drivers don’t tell farmers how to plow straight rows.

So, Jesus throws them off. He walks up to them out of nowhere, jumps into their boat and then tells them how to do their jobs. Let’s cast our nets into this story today and see what we bring up. We’ll look at how:

  • Jesus disrupts
  • Jesus arrives with abundance
  • Jesus calls alongside

Jesus disrupts

Getting into one of the boats, which was Simon’s, he asked him to put out a little from the land. And he sat down and taught the people from the boat. (Luke 5:3 ESV)

The scene is set with a crowd so large that Jesus had to retreat to the water just to address the crowd. It’s amazing how quickly this becomes not a story of the crowds, not even a story of Jesus’ teaching, but a story of Jesus and Peter.

Many of the shores of Lake Gennesaret, which is actually the Sea of Galilee, are steep and cliff-like. A boat on the water makes a natural amphitheater, even to this day. This enabled Jesus to address the crowd. But here’s an interesting anecdote: we have no clue what Jesus said in his teaching here; we know only what happened between he and Peter. Have you ever felt that way? As if God was suddenly talking to you one-on-one, almost out of nowhere. You’re in a conversation, you’re in fellowship, you’re going about your day and suddenly you realize the moment is different. Maybe a friend admits a need to you, and you are right there to address it. Maybe you receive direction on something you’ve been praying about through circumstances or through what someone says. Sometimes Jesus meets us in a one-on-one conversation that may even be disruptive and alarming.

And so it is with Peter here. Jesus disrupts his day. Jesus disrupts him after a night with no luck – not an uncommon occurrence for a career fisherman, but definitely not one you want followed by conversation. You want to go home and sleep the morning away. And here’s Jesus wanting to chat!

Then Jesus gets in his boat. The truck driver’s seat, the rancher’s saddle, the executive’s desk – these are not the places you sit! Jesus has already disturbed his work and thrown off his day, and now he’s sitting in his chair! Peter is the boss, the head guy when he’s out there on the water, and Jesus walks right into that situation to meet him.

And when he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, “Put out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch.” And Simon answered, “Master, we toiled all night and took nothing! But at your word I will let down the nets.” (Luke 5:4-5 ESV)

How many times has Jesus done that to us? We’re there entirely in our comfort zone, maybe right in that place where we draw our identity from, and he comes in there and throws things off.

One April day in Boston in the year 1855, a Sunday school teacher came to visit one of his students at the shoe store where the young man worked. He described the young man’s mind as “spiritually dark.”

The Sunday school teacher told the young man about Christ, and the young man became a Christian. He became a pillar in the church community there. A few years later, the young man went to Chicago trying to make his fortune in shoe retail. But he finally ended up starting a church there and devoted himself to lifelong ministry.

The young man was Dwight Moody, one of the most influential evangelists in American history. Millions of people can trace their spiritual lineage back to him. All because Jesus disrupted him in the world he was comfortable in, right when Jesus was the last thing the young Moody was expecting.

Jesus arrives with abundance  

And when they had done this, they enclosed a large number of fish, and their nets were breaking. They signaled to their partners in the other boat to come and help them. And they came and filled both the boats, so that they began to sink. (Luke 5:6-7 ESV)

Their nets were breaking. Around the time Jesus lived, a lot was being written by the Jewish community about God’s deliverance of Israel. Although they had no prophets speaking at the time, they did their best to draw on their traditions and predict when God’s deliverance would come.

Think about the miracles of Jesus. His first miracle—the wedding at Cana where he made many more gallons of wine than they needed. The feeding of the five thousand—with 12 baskets of leftovers. And here we have the fish so abundant that they were breaking the nets of expert fishermen.

Jesus arrives with a feast—not always, but often. He does more than they could ask or imagine. Look at how Peter addresses him:

Master, we toiled all night and took nothing! (v. 5)

And then after his muscles are aching and his boat creaks beneath the weight:

“Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.”  (v. 8)

Master in verse 5…Lord in verse 8. These two titles are different in Greek. The first is more like boss, the second is more a position of real power, and eventually became the title often used for Jesus.

Peter changes the title he gives Jesus right away. He pivots and changes the conversation because he sees that Jesus is different—that Jesus changed the very laws of nature and physics and arrived with abundance.

We’ve seen this in our own lives as well, when we take that small step forward in faith and Jesus gives an amazing, abundant increase. Think about when you finally turn toward that person you need to forgive, and a real friendship develops. Think about the addict who finally gives God control and finds healing from unthinkable temptation. Think about remaining faithful with tithing to find that the Lord gives you what you need and more.

Jesus calls alongside

And Jesus said to Simon, “Do not be afraid; from now on you will be catching men.”  And when they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed him. (Luke 5:10-11 ESV)

Peter often takes a bad rap for being impulsive and unreflective in his actions. Here’s a consummate Peter moment—him jumping out of the boat and making an immediate decision to leave his career and follow Jesus.

But let’s look at this for a moment. Jesus knew how impulsive Peter was and he used that. Jesus knew that Peter would cut ears off, speak denials before the cock crowed, and presume to rebuke him at one point. He also knew that Peter would be the first to walk on water, the first to start to understand who Jesus was, and a vertebra in the backbone of the early church.

He knew that Peter’s impulsiveness would become boldness, that his hot temper would become fearlessness. Jesus called him from right where he was into the work of the kingdom.

Jesus doesn’t want cost-efficient strategy or mobilized five-part plans; he wants you! He’s not looking for perfect people, he’s looking for you, people!

This conversation looks very public—who knows how many people were watching? But in the end it was more private. Jesus and Peter seemed like the only two people in the world for a moment, and Jesus greeted him with words that will sound familiar to Bible readers. Anytime in the Old Testament that God or angels interacted with someone, which usually put that person into fits of terror, they said the same phrase: “Do not be afraid.”

Then he called these imperfect men into work with him. He knew all the failures that were yet to come, but he called them to walk with him. He didn’t just fix them and move on—he called them to walk with him and join him in this adventure. They left everything behind that they had known – the nets, the sea, and for all we know, that huge, wriggling pile of fish they had just caught, and they followed him.

Do not be afraid…

Jesus disrupts: Is he disrupting you today somewhere that you’re comfortable? Like he did with these professional fishermen who had just had a hard night? Maybe there’s a habit or a mindset he’s working on in your life. Maybe you’re in some place where you think, although you probably never put it into words, “I got this, Lord, you can move on to the next thing.” Maybe he’s coming right there, showing you that you can be more present to your spouse, more patient with your kids, more loving toward the world and yourself in some way.

Do not be afraid…

Jesus comes with abundance: And when he comes to you in that part of your life, calling you to the stronger, better life, will you “put out into the deep water”? Will you listen to where he tells you to cast? He may ask you to step out in faith, like he did with them. Putting out into deep water was not usually a good move for fishermen, especially professionals, and yet they did. And that’s where the miracle was, that’s where the abundance was.

He often calls us to stretch goals, trusting that he will guide us and take care of us. We didn’t just “get saved,” and that’s it. He calls us over and over to “put out into the deep water,” trusting him with our decisions and our way of being in the world, transforming our relationships, our decisions, our state of mind.

Do not be afraid…

Jesus calls alongside: Where is he calling you today? Make no mistake, he is calling you. This isn’t the practiced handshake of the executive who wants to interact with you as little as possible. This is Jesus picking you out of a crowd, calling specifically on you, with your gifts and abilities, even your shortcomings. Let him redeem those things for his kingdom – turn your impulsiveness into innovation, your hotheadedness into passion, your passivity into patience.

Do not be afraid…

The deep water looks dark and empty and mysterious. He’s the only one who knows what’s there. Cast your net.

Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner W1

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Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner
February 6 – 5th Sunday after the Epiphany
Luke 5:1-11   “Gone Fishing!”

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Program Transcript


Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner Week 1

I’m going to read our first pericope, Luke 5:1-11. It comes from the NRSV. It’s a Revised Common Lectionary passage for February the 6th. It reads:

Once while Jesus was standing beside the lake of Gennesaret, and the crowd was pressing in on him to hear the word of God, he saw two boats there at the shore of the lake; the fishermen had gone out of them and were washing their nets. He got into one of the boats, the one belonging to Simon, and asked him to put out a little way from the shore. Then he sat down and taught the crowds from the boat. When he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, “Put out into the deep water and let down your nets for a catch.” Simon answered, “Master, we have worked all night long but have caught nothing. Yet if you say so, I will let down the nets.” When they had done this, they caught so many fish that their nets were beginning to break. So they signaled their partners in the other boat to come and help them. And they came and filled both boats, so that they began to sink. But when Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Go away from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man!” For he and all who were with him were amazed at the catch of fish that they had taken; and so also were James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. Then Jesus said to Simon, “Do not be afraid; from now on you will be catching people.” When they had brought their boats to shore, they left everything and followed him.

As an aside, I couldn’t help, but think of Lionel Richie when I said, “all night long,” but that’s an 80’s music reference. So, my first question: Simon Peter’s response was “yet, if you say so I will,” and that seems remarkable to me considering the fact that they’d been fishing all night and had no luck. What can we take away from this?

Kenneth: I actually got really emotional reading this morning, and I am now too. I think, it’s just beautifully set. I love the detail of the lake and that Jesus has come down and the boats and the nets. It’s just so vivid.

Jesus is a walking, talking tree of life, and Peter has seen. He’s healing the sick. He’s casting, he’s setting the oppressed free. This is the one who says, “Where are we to go? You’re the one who has the words of life.”

And he’s a professional fisherman. He and the Zebedee’s are not poor people. These are businesses that have thrived. The father of John and James has made a good living fishing. But, when you can’t catch any fish, it’s not just that you can’t make any money, but there’s people who are desperately hungry that need you to catch the fish, so they have food. And so, it’s a real crisis. It’s not just about running the business. It’s about, these are families dedicated to the feeding of the people around Galilee.

And so, it’s a crisis, that they haven’t caught any fish. He is willing because of the character and what he has seen of this human, that if he asked him. Even though he knows he’s not a fisherman, he’s a carpenter and a teacher, rabbi. He knows him as a rabbi. If you tell me, I’ll go. And that’s beautiful.

Anthony: Yeah. I know a lot of people right now who probably feel like their nets are coming up empty. And I’m curious, Kenneth what encouragement can we share with those who frankly are feeling let down by God?

Kenneth: Yeah. I do think that sometimes what we need are people in our life who see the abundance that is everywhere, even though we might be experiencing scarcity and who can point out where our nets are full in areas that we’re not paying attention to, because the need of not having a particular net full is so pressing in on us, as it can be in small and large ways. And so, it’s helpful to have companions in the journey who point to the abundances in the world that always outpace the lacks and the scarcities.

And of course, raised around a charismatic setting, sometimes there were a kind of denial of lacks, and it’s just about recognizing the abundance and you just need to tap into this or that, or the other thing. You don’t have enough faith or there’s something that you’re not doing. It’s always on you, this lack, the scarcity is your fault.

So, I’m not talking about that sort of thing. I’m talking about within a clear-eyed view of the situation, of lack and not a denial of it, people who point us to trust that God has what it is we need.

And the timing of that may not be what we are expecting. But it is God who is the source of life and light, and he’s infinite. And sometimes, it’s also about sharing our abundance. This is what God is inviting us into. His abundance is sharing our abundance with those who have lack.

Anthony: I think I’m the evil one speaks fluent scarcity. And it seems to me, the Christian walk by the Spirit is having (to use Pauline language) the eyes of our heart open to see the abundance that is ours in Christ.

So, Kenneth, I’ve heard a lot of sermons, too many sermons frankly, from this pericope that give me sort of like the seven step process of evangelism, catching people and here’s the bait you need to use and that sort of thing. Please tell us there’s a holistic Christological way of thinking and acting toward people who don’t know Jesus.

Kenneth: Yeah. He says set out into the deep, and that they’re going to catch people. And the participle there is catch them alive, from the tumult, from the storm, from the deep. And I do think that the disposition of a lot of Christians towards people who don’t share our faith, fails to recognize that Jesus has already related himself to every person we ever meet in two fundamental ways before we share anything about the good news with them. And that is that he’s the creator of every individual that we come into contact with, as he is the Word by which, all things were spoken into being and the hand by which God creates. And there’s that but also, he’s become the human brother by entering the womb of the virgin and by walking and living among us as a human being, he’s also the human brother of every person that we encounter. Again, before anything about the gospel is either witnessed by the way we live or heard by the way we talk about him.

So what can happen is that we think of these people as somehow unrelated to Christ, and we need to bring about relationships. They are related to Christ. Of course, God wants to have an intimate connection with them and for them to understand the fullness of this relationship. Hopefully by the way that we live and hopefully by the way that we speak we can participate in what God is doing, but remember God is the one who fills the nets. God is the one who saves. God is the one who causes us to catch people alive. So, we are just participants and (silly to say, just participants) but yes, we are participants in the work of God. I think there’s also sometimes this idea that we’re the one; if we don’t do X, Y, and Z, people are not going to be caught alive. And I just think, if all the human beings who God loves and wants to be in relationship with them are going to be redeemed, it’s got to be God’s work.

Anthony: Amen, brother. Even though it was well-intended, I can remember being on short-term mission trips, where the conversation went something like this: be prayed up because we’re going to take Jesus to these people we’re going to go serve. And I think about that now, and I just cringe because Jesus, he’s already there at work, wherever we go, in the community, in our neighborhood, with our neighbors, he’s there by his Spirit. And that’s such good news! That takes the burden off of me that he’s the Savior of the world not me.

Kenneth: And just quickly, it’s a little bit deeper. In Matthew 25, he says he is the poor. He is the prisoner. He is the hungry, he is the naked. He is the foreigner or the immigrant and so forth. So, we’re going to meet Jesus, I think is maybe perhaps a better way of framing it.

Anthony: Yeah. And what you just said is going to be an important identifier as we talk in other passages about blessing those who are poor, those are hungry because Jesus is there.


Small Group Discussion Questions

Questions for sermon: “Cast Out into the Deep Water”

  • Jesus was a carpenter; these disciples were fishermen. Have you ever had someone from another job come and tell you how to do yours? How did it go? How do you think it might go?
  • Do you ever feel like Jesus has “disrupted” you the way he disrupted these fishermen disciples that morning? Has he ever come into a place where you were comfortable and thrown things off, drawing your attention to something new?
  • Have you ever seen God “bring abundance” when you’ve taken a step out in faith? Maybe turned a distant relationship into a true friendship or a ruined day into a beautiful memory?
  • What does it mean in your life to “cast out into the deep water”? Where is Jesus calling you to cast out in trust?

Questions for Speaking of Life: “The Story Since Day One”

  • Do you remember any commercial jingles or TV theme songs decades later? Isn’t it amazing what sticks in our memory?
  • The credal formula in 1 Corinthians 15 indicates that these beliefs were the earliest in the Christian community, well established right away and not—as some have criticized—developed over time. Why is that important?
  • The gospel never separates the historical Jesus of Nazareth from the miracle-working Christ the Lord. Yet some people do. Why do you think that is tempting?

Quote to Ponder:

“A faith that moves mountains is a faith that expands horizons, it does not bring us into a smaller world full of easy answers, but into a larger one where there is room for wonder.” ~Rich Mullins

Sermon for February 13, 2022 — 6th Sunday after the Epiphany

Speaking Of Life 4012 | If No Resurrection…

From changing water into wine to raising Lazarus from the dead, these events from the Bible might sound impossible to believe. But are we forgetting that we have a God who is beyond logic and understanding? Paul reminds us that we cannot place our great God inside a small box. He is beyond that! Even when we can’t comprehend the greatness of our God, he continues to pursue us with no bounds.

Program Transcript


Speaking Of Life 4012 | If No Resurrection…
Cara Garrity

Have you ever had a hard time believing something the Bible says about Jesus Christ? The virgin birth. Healing the blind. Walking on water. Raising the dead. There are many things about Jesus’ story that challenge our reason. As a result, sometimes we try to force-fit our big God into a box of our own understanding or suspend our logic and reason to be a Christian?

The apostle Paul had to address the resurrection of Jesus. A good number of the members of the Corinthian church did not believe in the possibility of the dead coming back to life. Ironically, Paul used the style of writing popular with philosophers to make a logical argument proving the reality of the resurrection. He began by quoting evidence—including eyewitness testimony—of Christ being seen after his death. In his conclusion, Paul stated:

But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. … But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:12-14

Paul saw the resurrection as foundational to our faith and a reason for our hope. Yet, he also understood it was a hard thing to believe. This was why he was so meticulous in putting together a logical argument for the more skeptical Christians in Corinth. Apart from God, resurrection is illogical. But with God, it is possible, because God can do all things. Resurrection still stretches the imagination, however, we serve a supernatural God who is powerful beyond description.

Paul did not want his audience to disregard their logical minds or try to fit God into their pre-conceived notions of logic, rather he wanted them to use their minds to explore a greater reality. In this season of Epiphany, we are challenged to see and encounter the God revealed in Jesus Christ. The truth is Jesus disrupts our belief because he is greater than we can possibly imagine. We cannot wrap our minds around his love, his power, and the lengths he is willing to go in order to redeem humanity.

I pray that you would allow God to renew your mind and awaken you to the ways of his reality. I am Cara Garrity, Speaking of Life.

Psalm 1:1-6 · Jeremiah 17:5-10 · 1 Corinthians 15:12-20 · Luke 6:17-26

In this sixth week after Epiphany, our theme is God’s disruptive ways — how God will challenge how we think about things. The call to worship Psalm advises us to avoid following in the seemingly natural path of the wicked. Jeremiah warns his reader not to trust in the strength of other people. Rather, we should trust in the Lord. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul is challenging the conventional wisdom of the ruling class who do not believe in the resurrection. In Luke, we read an account of Jesus sketching the outlines of his upside-down kingdom.

The Blessed Poor

Luke 6:17-26

When you think of the poor, who comes to mind? Perhaps you think of someone who is homeless. Or, maybe someone on a street corner asking for change? Maybe you thought of one of those commercials featuring starving children in some distant land? Does anyone you know come to mind? Is poverty something you have encountered? In America, most people do not see themselves as living in poverty. Oftentimes, people live their entire lives without having a relationship with a person they consider poor. Is this a good thing? Do we lose something for not being in close proximity to the poor?

Mother Teresa knew at an early age that she wanted to commit her life to religious service. At 18, she left home to be equipped to be a missionary, and she never turned back. She became a nun and soon after began to minister to the people of Calcutta, India. In 1979, she was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for her work with the poor. Given her decades of work with the poorest of humans, Mother Teresa had uncommon insight into poverty and our spiritual needs. She said:

The greatest disease in the West today is not [tuberculosis] or leprosy; it is being unwanted, unloved, and uncared for. We can cure physical diseases with medicine, but the only cure for loneliness, despair, and hopelessness is love. There are many in the world who are dying for a piece of bread but there are many more dying for a little love. The poverty in the West is a different kind of poverty — it is not only a poverty of loneliness but also of spirituality. There’s a hunger for love, as there is a hunger for God.

Mother Teresa saw poverty as a universal problem. To her, we are all poor in one way or another. This does not mean that we turn our back on the economically disadvantaged to attend to our own poverty. Rather, we should identify with the poor and act accordingly.

Jesus taught about poverty in his “Sermon on the Plateau” in Luke 6:

He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coastal region around Tyre and Sidon, who had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases. Those troubled by impure spirits were cured, and the people all tried to touch him, because power was coming from him and healing them all. Looking at his disciples, he said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh. Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets. “But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets. (Luke 6:17-26)

In order to appreciate the depth of Jesus’ message, we have to put ourselves in the place of the disciples. Imagine what it was like. You are standing there with Jesus and many other disciples when an even larger crowd comes to hear Jesus. You feel excited at first that people from far and wide were coming to hear your teacher. Then as the people get closer you see that they are the outcasts of society: the sick, the demon-possessed, the infirmed. You were taught that people in those conditions were sinners — people to be avoided. Some of them are carrying diseases that made them ritually unclean and they are drawing nearer. Your excitement turns to trepidation because this is not the audience you wanted for Jesus. These are not the people around whom you feel comfortable.

You watch as Jesus tries to touch each person in an orderly way, but the crowd keeps growing. They are now pressing all around you as they try to touch Jesus. If you were in this situation, what would be your attitude towards the crowd? Many of us would negatively judge the people. We may be tempted to make generalizations and judgments about the less fortunate. We may be tempted to see ourselves as better in some ways compared to the pitiful crowd.

It is at this moment that Jesus turned to his disciples, not the crowd, and said, “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.” What an astonishing teaching! Not only was Christ’s message at odds with conventional wisdom, but it also may have been an admonishment to his disciples. It is likely that after being pushed and shoved by people who were to be avoided in their culture, some of the disciples may have grown tired of the pleading and the tears. In the same moment, Jesus brought comfort to the crowd and conviction to his disciples.

In verses 24-26, Jesus delivered warnings to the comfortable. Jesus was not saying there is something inherently evil about being wealthy, happy, or having a good reputation. However, it is a problem if we see ourselves as wealthy, happy, or having a good reputation by our own strength. We are in trouble if we allow our comfort to make us think we are better than those we perceive as struggling. If we see ourselves as healthy and whole apart from God, there is no room for God to address our spiritual needs. Our physical wealth can mask our spiritual poverty. Mother Teresa is also quoted as saying, “One day there springs up the desire for money and for all that money can provide — the superfluous, luxury in eating, luxury in dressing, trifles. Needs increase because one thing calls for another. The result is uncontrollable dissatisfaction. Let us remain as empty as possible so that God can fill us up.”

In America, most people aspire to wealth, not poverty. We have something called “The American Dream” — the idea that if a person works hard, they can achieve status and wealth. We strive for the house with the bigger garage and pretty fence. We love “rags to riches” stories and view “riches to rags” stories as tragic. We have been socialized to see poverty as shameful and to be avoided. As a result, Christ’s upside-down teaching in Luke 6 can strike us as radical.

Jesus often has to disrupt our flawed thinking in order to better reflect his image. The Lord exhorts us to reconsider our attitude towards poverty and the poor. In contrast to our natural inclination, there is some kind of blessedness to poverty.

As believers, we should follow our Lord’s example and be concerned about the economically disadvantaged. We should be appalled at the deplorable conditions in which some people live simply because human beings are not very good at sharing. In God’s economy, “those who have” are to give, so “those who do not have” can have. That way, everybody has what they need (Acts 4:32-35). Because of God’s lavish love, there is a blessing in both the giving and receiving (Acts 20:35). Yet, the norm in our society is for people to be concerned about themselves and what they can accumulate to fulfill their own desires. Our perceived individualism causes us to lose sight of humanity’s interconnectedness.

To Jesus, the poor are blessed because the kingdom of God belongs to them. The hungry are blessed because they will be fed. The mourners are blessed because they will be made to laugh. The marginalized are blessed because they will receive rewards in heaven. These people are blessed not because of the lowly state in which they find themselves. They are blessed not because they are learning humility, although learning humility is a good thing. Jesus says they are blessed because of the response of their loving God. In his compassion, mercy, justice, and love, God responds to our suffering with restoration and renewal.

This is the mystery that the poor Christian has an easier time understanding: the greater our poverty, the greater access to God’s power we have when we humbly seek our Father. It is true that poverty can bring humility and less distractions, both of which are blessings. However, the greater blessing is the emptiness that Mother Teresa spoke about — the room in our lives and in our hearts that God can fill.

Whatever our state, we should embrace our own spiritual poverty. We are all in desperate need of God every moment of every day. Jesus is life itself and there is no existence apart from him. We are blessed if every day we thank God for our lives and seek him to supply our needs. We are blessed if we realize we have no strength in ourselves and wait on the Lord to order our steps. This means that sacred practices like prayer, study, fasting, and other spiritual disciplines that cultivate a dependence on God are profitable ways to spend our time.

At the same time, Luke’s Gospel speaks about poverty in a literal sense. The author has both spiritual and economic poverty in mind. Finances are an uncomfortable topic for many; however, the Bible has a lot to say on the issue. In this passage, Jesus is warning those who accumulate earthly riches to not see their value in their possessions. Rather, they should submit all that they have to God and see their wealth as a tool to be used by the Lord. The prayer of the wealthy should be, “Thank you Lord for the gifts you have given and please show me how to use them for your glory.” In that way, the wealthy do not see themselves as such. Rather, God is wealthy and in his grace he has chosen to share his riches. Those who are wealthy are stewards of God’s wealth; they should seek opportunities to build authentic relationships with the poor. Not only will proximity to the poor create openings to be a blessing to those in need, but it will allow the financially secure to learn emptiness from poor people.

Jesus tells us that those who struggle with economic insecurity should see the blessings we have in Christ. We are defined by God’s love for us, not by how much is in our bank account. Jesus represents the end of poverty, and our financial insecurity is temporary. Even if we do not have a lot of cash, we should follow Jesus’ example and seek to bless others with our time and talent. Those who are poor have much to teach the wealthy, so the economically insecure should seek authentic relationships with those who have riches. If God moves upon the heart of the wealthy to give to those who are poor, those gifts should be received as a blessing from the Lord.

In this Epiphany season, it is important that we remember who Jesus revealed himself to be. When it comes to poverty, the good news is that we have all been made rich in Christ. Because of Jesus, every spiritual blessing is available to us in this life and the life to come. In Jesus we have love, joy, peace and every other good thing. In Jesus, we can be generous in giving. In Jesus, we can be gracious in receiving. In Jesus, the rich can be humbled and the poor can be filled. In Jesus, we can hope for the day when no one will ever hunger or thirst again. Jesus is the end of poverty because there is only abundance in him.

Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner W2

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Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner
February 13 – 6th Sunday after the Epiphany
Luke 6:17-26 “Blessed Are You”

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Program Transcript


Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner

Anthony: Kenneth, our next passage is Luke 6:17 – 26. It’s the Revised Common Lectionary passage for February the 13th.

Would you read it for us please?

Kenneth: Yes.

He came down with them and stood on a level place, with a great crowd of his disciples and a great multitude of people from all Judea, Jerusalem, and the coast of Tyre and Sidon. They had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases; and those who were troubled with unclean spirits were cured. And all in the crowd were trying to touch him, for power came out from him and healed all of them.

Then he looked up at his disciples and said:

“Blessed are you who are poor,
    for yours is the kingdom of God.
“Blessed are you who are hungry now,
    for you will be filled.
“Blessed are you who weep now,
    for you will laugh.

 “Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you on account of the Son of Man.  Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, for surely your reward is great in heaven; for that is what their ancestors did to the prophets. 

“But woe to you who are rich,
    for you have received your consolation.
“Woe to you who are full now,
    for you will be hungry.
“Woe to you who are laughing now,
    for you will mourn and weep.

“Woe to you when all speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets.

Anthony: Kenneth, if you were preaching this text, what would be your focus?

Kenneth: I probably would contrast – blessing and woes are very common in the scriptures. And there are precedents for announcing these blessings and these woes in other parts of the Old Testament. And I would go through some of those and talk about how they similarly tend to pronounce an announced blessing on those who have not and woes on those who have, and how the foundation of those two things, the blessings on the have-nots come from their condition of dependence on God.

The poor are dependent on God. And the rich can be – don’t necessarily have to be (it’s the same with the poor, but most often the poor are dependent and recognize their dependence on God) too often, the rich assume and presume that they’re independent from God. And this is the foundation of the state these folks find themselves in and what God’s announcing to them in this moment.

Anthony: Let’s keep scratching that itch. What do you make of those who are blessed? You’ve touched on it, but the poor? In some paradigms, that’s not God’s blessing. The hungry? Those who weep? Those who have been rejected? What do we take away from this?

Kenneth: Yeah, for those who may have been raised even in Christian circles with a teaching that people who are favored, wealthy, secure, and so forth, have found favor, are that way because they have done things or because God is pleased with them. And encountering people who are unwell or under-resourced or who are destitute, that they somehow have angered God or have not done the things they were supposed to do, and this is a punishment for what they have done, or their ancestors have done and so forth and so on. And I don’t think that’s either the wisdom of the scriptures or of the gospel or of the Apostolic teaching.

There are people who are desperately poor who are in deep covenantal relationship and connection with God. And there are people who are quite resourced and wealthy, who also enjoy that same connection with God. And there are folks who are struggling who – there’s this kind of Mesopotamian, ancient understanding of the gods where you better behave in this way or you better sacrifice in this way and so forth. Or you’re in trouble or going to be in trouble or the reason you’re in trouble is, you haven’t.

But if you do all the right things and you make all the right sacrifices and so forth, God will be pleased with you, and then you’ll have everything you need. That is not the gospel. That is not the character of the God that we worship. And so, we have to identify that sort of striving and that sort of attitude and disposition where we’re jockeying for position and favor with God as a false understanding of the relationship between God and human beings.

And we have to do that all the time. We have to do it in the church first because it’s amazing how many people go to church and have a Mesopotamian view of God, rather than the view of God that comes from the revelation of the prophets, and the stories of the patriarchs, and the Psalms of David, and the apostolic witness.

Anthony: And all you have to do is look at the life of the apostles. By any measure, that doesn’t look like human flourishing, even though it is. It absolutely is. As I was looking back over these woes, as you’re reading them, the rich, those who are full now, those who are laughing now, I couldn’t help but think of America.

Are we in trouble? What do we take away from these woes?

Kenneth: Yeah, I think that’s how they are precisely intended to be read and understood, as a warning from love to the object of love. It is love telling us, “I love you. Be careful.” Because this is addressed to us, the woes.

We should see the words addressed to us and addressed because God wants us to thrive and be alive and to be well. And recognizing our dependence upon God in humility is so vital to thriving. And it is the nature of the world, the fallen world, to make us dichotomize poor and rich in the way I was talking about earlier. And to lean on all of these things instead of the wisdom of God and the abundance of God. We can be deceived that everything is well with us because we’re using these things as measures of how we’re doing or how we’re doing with God.

And it’s not just Christians that do this, of course. Everyone, every human has this tendency. And I think this is, “Wake up. Watch yourself because I love you.” It’s like a child approaching a hot stove or getting too close to the street.  It’s that voice that says, “Yes, come back to me. Stop moving in that direction.”

Anthony: That’s such an important thing you’ve said because there are several warning passages in the New Testament, but God can only speak and act out of who he is.  And he is love; that’s all he can do. Go ahead.

Kenneth: This is the same one who is going to go on to say, “Love your enemies.” And this is the same one who says, “Don’t judge.” This is the one who says, “Forgive.” This is the one who is described as mercy and forgiveness, and so he can only be announcing these woes from that position, his core disposition, which is to save.

Anthony: Amen.


Small Group Discussion Questions

  • What are some examples of God disrupting ways in which we think?
  • How do you think Christians should balance reason and faith?
  • If you were with Jesus (Luke 6:17-26), how would you be feeling about the crowd?
  • Is it hard to think of yourself as being in spiritual poverty? Why or why not?
  • What is something you can do to cultivate emptiness, a feeling of dependence on God?

Sermon for February 20, 2022 — 7th Sunday after Epiphany

Speaking Of Life 4013 | The Boy from the Well

It is often said that there’s nothing sweeter than revenge. But, in Joseph’s story, we see the power of grace when reconciliation is chosen over revenge.

Program Transcript


Speaking Of Life 4013 | The Boy from the Well
Greg Williams

Have you ever felt completely powerless? Have you been in the unenviable place of having no recourse—no action you can take that will change your situation? Imagine being stuck in the bottom of a well.

You likely recall the story. Joseph was the favorite of 12 sons, whose father had given him a coat of many colors. Joseph’s brothers—jealous of his gifts and favor with their father—threw him down a well in a fit of rage. At the bottom of the well—perhaps this one or one like it, he lay helpless, unable to scale the walls, completely dependent upon others to release him. Of course, we know this was just the beginning of his journey of helplessness, which included slavery, imprisonment, and mistreatment.

But we also know that years later, after being released from prison, Joseph became the 2nd highest authority in the land of Egypt. And during this time, he and his brothers met.

The land was in the midst of famine and Joseph’s brothers had traveled to Egypt to ask to buy food for their family. They were now totally dependent upon others. They had no idea the Egyptian official in front of them was their brother Joseph the boy they had thrown into a well so many years before.

At first, Joseph wasn’t sure about revealing himself to them and seemed to toy with the idea of revenge—even seeming to threaten their youngest brother. But mercy wins out. He can’t keep up the ruse anymore, he blurts out his name. But they don’t get it at first.

[Look Down]

And Joseph said to his brothers, “I am Joseph! Is my father still alive?” But his brothers could not answer him, for they were dismayed at his presence. So Joseph said to his brothers, “Come near to me, please.” And they came near. And he said, “I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt.
Genesis 45:3-4 (ESV)

They are so shocked to see him he had to repeat himself. You can only imagine what is going on in their minds. The power dynamic has completely reversed. Now it is them at the bottom of the well as he stands over them. They are trapped in famine and under the mercy of Egypt. He has the upper hand by any measure.  But rather than take the upper hand, he informs them of his plan to take care of the most vulnerable member of their family, their aging father.

This is grace. Grace can mean walking away from our rightful revenge, holding back when we want to restore our human version of “balance” to the world.

Grace tells us that God doesn’t work by our weights and measures. In Joseph’s world, the abusing brothers are forgiven and taken in. In God’s world, the weak become the strong; in God’s world, the sinner is given the place of honor. In God’s world, the boy from the well becomes the man on the throne; the boy stripped off his robe provides for his family.

I am Greg Williams, Speaking of Life.

Psalm 37:1-11, 39-40 ∙ Genesis 45:3-11, 15 1 Corinthians 15:35-38, 42-50 Luke 6:27-38

The theme this seventh Sunday after Epiphany is living by God’s generosity. Our call to worship Psalm recites God’s generosity for those who wait on his timing and provision. Genesis 45 is the story of Joseph’s God-fueled generosity to his abusive brothers. 1 Corinthians 15 talks about the quantum generosity at the resurrection—replacing a perishable body with the imperishable. Our sermon is about Jesus’ manifesto of the generous life his people are to live, trusting in his provision.

Pressed Down and Shaken Together

Luke 6:27-38 ESV

Read, or have someone read Luke 6:27-38 ESV.

Malcom Muggeridge, a British journalist who came to Christ at the peak of his secular career, was forever changed by his time with Mother Theresa. He talked about her order coming to start a ministry in London, which happened to be during a labor strike in which the power companies had turned off the lights in the city in a protest for higher wages. As they dedicated the building, they took a moment for a quiet service in their darkened building:

It was the most beautiful service I have ever attended. As it happened, the electricity workers’ go-slow was on, so we had only candlelight, which somehow added to the mystery and majesty of the proceedings. I thought of the vain battle of greed which had plunged London in darkness that day, and of how such battles and such darkness are the stuff of history and the fruit of our unredeemed moral natures. Here in this front parlor of a small suburban house, where an altar and a cross had been set up, a little clearing was made in the dark jungle of the human will. I was enchanted to be there. (Muggeridge, Something Beautiful for God, pg 109).

The dark jungle of the human will. The airless chambers of greed where nothing and no one is ever truly free. We’ve all been there – we’ve suffered from it and been part of creating it. As Muggeridge writes, “such battles and such darkness are the stuff of history.” Humanity runs by “scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” – we give only to the point that we’ve gotten ours first. Tit for tat, quid pro quo, eye for an eye.

 

Jesus’ sermon here frees us from this dark jungle of greed and power-playing. In just a few paragraphs that probably took twenty minutes to speak, Jesus turns the whole tired human story on its head. Let’s look back at this well-known moment in Jesus’ ministry to see how he undoes our human instincts and shows us what it means to be truly human.

We’ll draw out three details from this story today, which might seem a little disconnected from one another, but we’ll show how they tie together:

  • The level place
  • The golden rule
  • The generous measure

The level place

And he came down with them and stood on a level place, with a great crowd of his disciples and a great multitude of people (Luke 6:17 ESV)

This verse appears a little bit before the focus passage for today and gives this passage its name, “The Sermon on the Plain.” Matthew’s account of this sermon is the “Sermon on the Mount,” which is probably better known. Whether the writers were telling this from two different angles or Jesus gave the sermon twice we don’t really know, but it wouldn’t be a surprise that an itinerant preacher like him would recycle and reuse material. Harmonizing these two details is not nearly as important as what the details tell us.

Matthew sets this on the Mount, casting Jesus as a parallel to Moses, who received the law on Mount Sinai. Matthew’s Gospel is written with Israelite history as a theme. Luke’s theme is economics and inclusion, and he regularly writes about the poor and the outsider as central to Jesus’ mission.

The setting of Luke’s version is on a plain – a “level place,” which works as a visual metaphor for collapsing the hierarchy of human society. In Christ, there is no rich or poor or slave or free, but all are one (see Galatians 3:28), and Luke sets Jesus’ speech in a place where everyone stood on equal footing.

Jesus had proclaimed what his kingdom would be like in Luke chapter 4, where he described his ministry as the Israelite year of Jubilee, in which slaves were freed and debts were forgiven. Luke follows this declaration with several stories in the next chapters of people who aren’t usually welcome – disabled people, tax collectors, prostitutes – that Jesus heals and welcomes into his community. The Sermon on the Plain follows. It is a manifesto of what Jesus’ kingdom looks like, where the poor are blessed, generosity trumps greed and enemies are loved.

And he does so in a level place, where all the odd balls, sophisticates, outsiders, insiders, elite and outcasts look each other in the eye.

What does it mean for us, in our society today, to meet on a level place? For those of us in the West, equality and egalitarianism is something we talk about a lot, but it’s not always something we act on, even in the church. Those who look or dress different than us are often left out of the conversation while we wait for our homogenous group to come back around so we can truly be ourselves.

But Jesus invites us into a different dance. He says that the old hierarchy, which was brutal in the ancient world, won’t work anymore. He calls to unity without uniformity, celebrating the unique voice that each person brings to the choir.

The Golden Rule

Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. (Luke 6:30-32 ESV)

You probably recognize the “golden rule” in the midst of Jesus’ words here. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This is one of the most famous pieces of Jesus’ teaching, but was actually not original with him. Similar phrases were spoken by other ancient teachers. Typical of Jesus, he spins a phrase in his own direction.

What Jesus takes aim at here is the ethical code that Rome and much of the ancient world lived by. Quid pro quo. Society at this time ran on this exchange. You gave a gift to someone because they gave you one. You hosted someone at your house, and they had to host you, or they would be shamed.

And that shame meant more than embarrassment. It meant loss of reputation. Possibly loss of livelihood. Society became this maddening web of who owed who, of who thanked who, who offended and avenged who.

This is not exclusive to the ancient world. Not by a long shot. We see this in our own world all the time—kindness given only when we’ve received it, love given only to those who think we’re lovable, compliments given only if some are received.

Jesus breaks the back of such thinking here: “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.” (verses 32-33)

Jesus takes aim at this back-and-forth culture and takes aim at ours as well.

We don’t give kindness because of the kindness we think we’ll get back. We don’t give gifts because we’ll get one back. We do these things because God tells us to love others in action, and he knows how humanity works. We answer to him because he is the only reason generosity exists. He’s where it comes from.

If we are left only to ourselves, we degenerate into a who-owes-who society. Our relationships degrade into exchanges and our interactions become transactions.

So, Jesus puts his own spin on that golden rule. Instead of treating others in kind to how they treat you, he calls us to make that first investment. To give first, to love first, not believing that we’ll get something back, but believing that God is in charge. And he tells us that the giving world is the best place to live.

The generous measure

Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you. (Luke 6:38 ESV)

This is the key to the Jesus kingdom; this is the exit out of the dark jungle of the human will—generosity. In the calculating, self-addicted world we live in, generosity is the only relief, the only rest.

This image in verse 38 comes to us from entrepreneurship in Jesus’ day. At the time, most of what we might call shopping was done in open-air markets. You bought from the merchant, and he would measure out your purchase.

But Jesus puts generosity into this everyday exchange. Pressed down, shaken together, pouring over. This isn’t just about your mom giving you an extra helping at dinner. This is an exchange with a merchant who is measuring very carefully. But Jesus turns us toward God’s generosity, which gives plenty in even the most measured exchange.

He is pouring out something, like seed or grain, then pressing and shaking the measure until it’s packed full and overflowing.

We don’t give because we’re waiting for the same in return. We aren’t kind only if we get some kindness back. We don’t love only those who love us. We give, show kindness and love because God is in charge and he will take care of us.

And so we come back to that moment with Malcom Muggeridge and the nuns in a cramped room by candlelight. Where “…a little clearing was made in the dark jungle of the human will.” Jesus gives us the methodology of his upside-down kingdom where the last shall be first and the generous are the truly rich.

Let’s look at what we can take with us.

Reorientation of giving

We’re talking about a reorientation of what it means to give. To give as Jesus gave means that we give first, love first, show kindness first because his love compels us and because we know God will take care of us.

We don’t have to get entangled in the quid pro quo of the world, but we can put that all to rest in his capable hands.

The level place, the golden rule, the generous measure. This is the world we live in, created and sustained by the God who gives to pouring over. Let’s join him in that giving today.

 

 

Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner W3

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Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner
February 20 – 7th Sunday after the Epiphany
Luke 6:27-38 “Love Your Enemies”

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Program Transcript


Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner W3

Our next pericope is going to be in Luke 6:27 – 38 from the NRSV. It is the revised common lectionary passage for February the 20th, which is the final Sunday of epiphany.

“But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap; for the measure you give will be the measure you get back.”

Alright Kenneth, was God making a suggestion when he said, “Love your enemies”?

We have this thing that some have called the disappearing middle in America because we’re choosing sides. It’s the donkeys and the elephants, the red states, blue states, vaccinated, unvaccinated, rich, poor. And of course, the list just goes on and on to the glee of the evil one. So-called enemies are everywhere.

So what’s the way forward?

Kenneth: Yeah. Polarization is – I think the pandemic, the plague reveals. Plagues reveal the ways in which we’ve brought judgment upon ourselves, and the plagues have revealed that we’re deeply divided. Whether it’s the pandemic of COVID or school shootings or whatever it is, we other each other. I think the first place to start (if I start to sound like a broken record, it’s intentional) the place we start with thinking about what it means to be human is with Jesus.  And what it means to be God is Jesus.

And this is someone who from the cross, as he is actively being murdered, spat on, mocked, abused, who is forgiving those who are harming him and causing him pain. And this is the one who tells us, love your enemies. He does this. This is the very nature of what it means to be human.

This is the image in which you were made, is to be a forgiver. The image in which the human is made is to love the enemy. And so, surrender to this capacity in which we were made in that image, is vital for every human being.

And this is the God who doesn’t have enemies from his side of the equation. From our side of the equation, he does have enemies in us sometimes, and in others.  But from his side, he sets a table in the presence of our enemies and invites everyone, invites our enemy to that table.

We’re talking about an infinite God, so we could talk about this for a while, but I do think that is the heart of it.  We put these labels; we love labels. And God says, instead, by the Spirit in the church, there’s neither male nor female, neither slave nor free, neither Jew nor Greek, neither vaccinated nor unvaccinated, neither Democrat or Republican, neither liberal or conservative. It’s just a different way of thinking and just a different way of embodying what it means to be human and a different disposition and heart.

And I loved what you said. You didn’t say the media is the one who’s fomenting this, you didn’t say political parties are the ones that were fomenting this division. You said the enemy of our soul is the one who’s delighted by these divisions. And so that’s what’s behind all of this and he is the one who accuses. He is the one who divides.

Anthony: Yeah, labels are lazy from my standpoint. It starts with the second thing about a person, not the first thing, the second thing. Oh, they’re rich, they’re poor, they’re Democrat or Republican, instead of, they are a beloved child of God. And it’s the way we see.

I love what you said, because what you’re encouraging us to do is to be who we are, truly in him. Like Paul’s telling us to be reconciled because you are reconciled to God in Jesus Christ, right?

Kenneth: We’re made in the image of humility. You are made in the image of forgiveness. What did it say? It said, he’s kind to the ungodly. We’re made in the image of kindness.

Anthony: Jesus tells us to give to those who beg, to lend without expectation of a return.

But it seems to me, brother, that we’re spending way too much time judging those we’re seeking to give to or not seeking to give to. Why do we struggle so mightily not to judge people who are in need?

Kenneth: This is a classical problem. Chrysostom, the golden mouth preacher, said, “Your coffers, your bank, your treasure is in the bellies of the poor.”

If you really want to invest what you have, it belongs to them. I think first of all, it’s the idea that our possessing it is first. No, what we have belongs, not just to God, it belongs to our neighbor. This goes mightily against our education and the grain of our culture and our society to think that what I have belongs to others. Private ownership and whatever that means in law and philosophy and so forth and so on, in the gospel those boundaries are raised.

And it is about calling people into a voluntary participation. There’s no point in coercing people or forcing people into participating in their creative nature and in the Trinitarian life, in the abundance and generosity of God. Political systems and so forth that are based on coercing sharing are just as destructive to the human person as anything else. But a voluntary participation in the generosity of God.

And the practical question that you’re asking is, why do I see someone in need and just not want to just meet the need rather than wondering how they got there, what was the thing that made this happen to them, and so forth and so on.  Which according to the gospel, is absolutely irrelevant.

You hear these things, like you shouldn’t give something to someone who’s going to waste the resource or whatever. That’s none of our business. We’re just to meet the needs as they come into our purview and as we have the resources and to share.  And we’re not to take inventory of the persons that we are helping,

Anthony: It says give, and it will be given to you. And I know the Lord has given to you Kenneth. For a moment, I’d just like to ask you to make it personal. How have you experienced the extravagant generosity of God in your life?

Kenneth: I hope it doesn’t sound too simple, but what I’m most grateful for is the (to the extent that it’s been granted to me) is to be astonished with the person of Jesus and to constantly be amazed by something I haven’t seen before, like the four and living creatures are always seeing something of God they haven’t seen before and lavishing praise.

That’s how I feel a lot of the time. And I delight in nothing more than sharing what I’ve seen. Of course, you can’t give what you haven’t received, and you recognize that you’re receiving it from somewhere outside of yourself and that you get to give that. The apostle says, “Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have,” here.

And I don’t want to be cliche, but the greatest thing that we can offer to another human being is our vision of Christ. And yes, which is not to say, don’t give somebody five. Yes, give them $5 or a shirt or whatever. Jesus, he literally means give him the coat.

Not to spiritualize it, but also with the coat, I can share my astonishment with the person of Jesus. And I do it in a nonjudgmental way, without consideration of their position or my position, because no matter how poor someone is you encounter, there’s an area where you’re poor, and so forth and so on.

Anthony: Yeah, I appreciate what you said about not over spiritualizing it, because all we have to do is look at the true human Jesus and how frequently he met the felt need of people first. Like, I think of the leper that he touched; the dignity that must have been experienced in his bones to be touched before he was even healed is remarkable. And it shows us the way.

Kenneth: Recently the Pope (I don’t know if you saw the story) Francis – a leprous man was presented to him, and he just walked straight up to him and embraced him, with this (from what I understand) massive growth on his neck area. And he was bearing witness to the feeling of love and inclusion and grace and healing that occurred just because he didn’t judge him, wasn’t holding anything back from being connected to this man.

Anthony: “You will be my witnesses.” That’s what it looks like.


Small Group Discussion Questions

Questions for Sermon—Pressed Down and Shaken Together

  • Have you ever seen generosity bring rest and joy in an environment where people were being selfish? Essentially, have you ever seen giving work wonders or been involved in that giving yourself?
  • How is our modern world like the ancient world in which giving and receiving was really just an exchange instead of an act of true generosity? How does giving with conditions, such as what we want back, take away from the authenticity and joy of that giving?
  • How has God been generous with you in your life? Can you point to blessings in your life that you never could have “earned,” or don’t even deserve?

Questions for Speaking of Life: The Boy from The Well

  • Have you ever been in a helpless place like Joseph in the well? Have you ever been in a helpless place like Joseph’s brothers later in the story?
  • Joseph forgiving his brothers was essentially impossible. Have you ever seen this impossible forgiveness at work? What was the result?
  • God doesn’t work by our weights and measures, our understanding of revenge and forgiveness. Do you believe that? How does that change your daily life?

Quote to Ponder:

 “No one is useless in the world who lightens the burdens of another.”~~Charles Dickens

Sermon for February 27, 2022 — Transfiguration Sunday

Speaking Of Life 4014 | Having an Epiphany

We can easily get lost through the road of life that’s crammed with bumps, traffic, accidents, or GPS issues. If you ever get lost, keep in mind that Jesus allows for u-turns, and is the one true sign that will always point us in the perfect and right direction.

Program Transcript


Speaking Of Life 4014 | Having an Epiphany
Heber Ticas

The phrase “having an epiphany” is meant to convey that some reality that was once hidden is now seen. When you have an “epiphany” it is often accompanied by some significant change in how you go about life. Have you ever had an epiphany?

My friend tells a story when he had an epiphany as a young man. He was traveling south from Los Angeles to attend a weekend basketball tournament held in San Diego.  After the tournament, my friend got on the interstate, set his cruise control, and headed home. There was little traffic so he knew he should be home in a few short hours. Then he had an epiphany. It came to him in the form of a big green sign on the middle of the freeway that read, “International Border”. Suddenly, he realized he was headed for Mexico. Before that, he was completely in the dark to the reality that he had been driving in the wrong direction.

Well, that may not be a life-changing epiphany, but for that short journey, it meant a complete turnaround.

The Apostle Paul, on the other hand, does speak of a life-changing epiphany that also results in a complete turnaround. It comes to us when we see God face-to-face in Jesus Christ. Listen to the change that comes about for those who see the epiphany we have in Jesus.

“They suddenly recognize that God is a living, personal presence, not a piece of chiseled stone. And when God is personally present, a living Spirit, that old, constricting legislation is recognized as obsolete. We’re free of it! All of us! Nothing between us and God, our faces shining with the brightness of his face. And so we are transfigured much like the Messiah, our lives gradually becoming brighter and more beautiful as God enters our lives and we become like him.”
2 Corinthians 3:16-18 (MESSAGE)

Like that green sign that became an epiphany for my traveling friend, Jesus is a living sign who shows us our way home. More than that, he is our Way and our Home. Seeing Jesus will result in changes that will be needed in our life. But they are changes towards living out the freedom that comes with being home with the Father.

Mi nombre es Heber Ticas, Hablando de Vida.

Psalm 99:1-9 · Exodus 34:29-35 · 2 Corinthians 3:12-4:2 · Luke 9:28-36, (37-43a)

This week’s theme is transformed by God’s presence. The call to worship Psalm introduces the central focus of the transfiguration by alluding to Moses, Aaron, the pillar of cloud and the holy mountain, while calling for the people’s response of worship to the kingship of Yahweh. The reading in Exodus recounts Moses’ change in appearance after being in God’s presence on Mt. Sinai. The Gospel reading in Luke centers on Jesus’ transfiguration on the mountain, which leads to transformation for others after he comes down the mountain. Paul makes use of Moses’ veiled face to contrast the unveiling of God in Jesus where we see God face-to-face, transforming us into his image.

Eye-Opening Worship & Prayer

Luke 9:28-43a (NRSV)

Today is Transfiguration Sunday, which concludes the season of Epiphany. GCI typically follows the lectionary, which means this year, which is Year C in a three-year cycle, we have the option of revisiting the story of the Transfiguration as recorded in Luke’s Gospel. The story is found in Luke 9:28-36, and for those who want to extend the sermon, there is the option to include the follow-up story in verses 37-43. We will venture to do that as well.

You may be familiar with the story since it is presented in all three synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) and has its own special day on the calendar. Since we are going to include the follow-up story, it may be helpful to see the Transfiguration as a hinge story in the liturgical calendar. Let me explain.

The Season of Epiphany is all about seeing God’s glory. It is a season of seeing the mystery of God revealed in Jesus Christ. We look at the stories and passages in Scripture during the Epiphany Season, when we come to see more fully who God is in his character and being. We call this having an “epiphany” because what was once hidden is now plainly visible. Then we have the season culminate with Transfiguration Sunday.

As a magnified story, we see God’s glory revealed in Jesus in a way that can only be described by imagery and metaphor. It is a true story, but fantastic, nonetheless.

After Transfiguration Sunday, the Epiphany season gives way to the season of Lent (in GCI we call this Easter Preparation). Typically, this is a season of repentance (changing the way we think). This makes sense when you follow the logic of Epiphany. When something that has been hidden is suddenly revealed, then one must change how they relate to that new reality. For example, if you discovered a document that showed that your house was a historical landmark worth millions of dollars, that would hopefully change how you live in that house. Making those nagging repairs you have been putting off will probably find a higher priority. Perhaps calling the exterminator is not such a bad idea after all. Your “epiphany” puts you in a different place that requires changes. And that is why Lent, a season to repent, naturally follows Epiphany, a season of revelation. In that way, Transfiguration Sunday serves as a hinge story, turning the pages of Epiphany naturally onto the pages of repentance in the story of our journey with the Lord. Also, for us today, seeing the Transfiguration story as a hinge story will also give us some insight to the follow-up story, Luke, as well as Matthew and Mark, chose to include.

But first, let us reacquaint ourselves with the story of the Transfiguration.

Now about eight days after these sayings Jesus took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. And while he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became dazzling white. (Luke 9:28-29 NRSV)

Similar to Matthew and Mark’s account of the story, Luke begins with language and imagery that is reminiscent of Old Testament history. For example, Luke notes that Jesus takes three companions (Peter, James and John) up on a mountain. This trio with Jesus going up on a mountain has a loose connection to the details of the story of Moses and his first trip up Mt. Sinai recorded in Exodus 24. In that story Moses is told to “Come up to the LORD, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. You are to worship at a distance, but Moses alone is to approach the LORD; the others must not come near” (Exodus 24:1-2). Like Moses, Jesus also has three companions going to the mountain. Unlike Moses, Jesus brings his three companions all the way to top. They are not forbidden to “worship at a distance.” That account also includes the cloud out of which God speaks. When we also reference Moses’ second trip up Mt. Sinai, we have the additional similarity of Moses coming down the mountain with his face shining and Luke’s description of Jesus’ face changing and his clothes becoming “dazzling white.” These various parallels, although not exact, do create an unmistakable connection to the Old Testament history of Moses on Mt. Sinai.

All three synoptic Gospel accounts of the Transfiguration have the event taking place immediately after Peter’s confession that Jesus is the Messiah and Jesus’ teaching about his death.

(Note: Luke has two variations on how he introduces the story that differ from Matthew and Mark. Luke says this takes place “about eight days after these sayings.” The other two Gospels state that it was “after six days.” Those who may want to discredit the Bible may use this as an opportunity to claim that the Bible is unreliable and full of contradictions. But that would deny the fact that the authors of the different books in the Bible had a specific purpose in writing and availed themselves to literary devices to get their message across.

Each author is trying to share the story of Jesus from a certain angle. Luke, for some reason, wants to use eight days in setting up the story instead of six. And to be fair, Luke is not misrepresenting the facts of the story. He doesn’t say this took place in exactly eight twenty-four-hour days after these sayings, but rather he says it took place “about” eight days after these sayings. He is apparently counting some partial days to get to his total, which was commonly done in Judaism. Whatever method he uses, by using the word “about,” Luke is letting us know that he is counting the days loosely to get to eight. That is not being deceptive— that is being a good author. Why does Luke want to insert an eight-day motif here? We do not know for certain, but we have some plausible explanations. Perhaps Luke wants to tie the Transfiguration to the resurrection, which occurred after the sabbath and therefore could be counted as the eighth day. It is because the resurrection occurred on Sunday, or the “eighth day,” that the early church chose the practice of gathering for worship on that day instead of the sabbath. Whatever his reasons, the eighth day can tease us to see this story in light of the Resurrection of Jesus and the worship due him.)

One variation Luke offers in his telling of the Transfiguration is he places the event in the context of prayer. Luke records that the event took place “while he [Jesus] was praying.” This variation is consistent with Luke’s emphasis in other parts of his Gospel account. For example, earlier in verse 18 Luke records that Jesus was praying just before Peter’s confession that Jesus was the Messiah and Jesus’ teaching about his soon-coming death. Going back further, we see Luke recounting Jesus being in prayer when he received the Holy Spirit and heard the voice of the Father’s approval after his baptism. Luke throughout records the major movements of Jesus’ life as being marked by prayer.

Luke includes this to encourage us to consider the importance of worship and prayer as the context of seeing more fully the glory of God. In Luke’s Gospel, Jesus does not consider worship and prayer as optional or add-ons to his life and ministry. For Jesus, worship and prayer was a way of life. It marked and permeated everything he did. In Jesus’ continual practice of worship and prayer, we see a glimpse into the inner life of the Trinity. It is a glorious epiphany. The Son is continually worshiping the Father, and is in constant communion with him. And this is the life held out to us in Jesus Christ.

Worship and prayer are not to be seen as laborious acts to appease some deity, but rather, it is indicative of the nature and flow of the relationship between the Father and Son in the Spirit that has been going on for all eternity. When Christians gather for worship and prayer on Sunday, they are doing far more than just exercising some arbitrary religious duty. They are participating in the very worship and prayer, of enjoyment and intimate communion, that is going on in the divine Triune life. In doing so, the church is also serving as a witness to the world that Jesus is Lord and worthy of worship.

Glory is a good word to use for the Transfiguration story. As we see Jesus transfigured, we see God’s glory, a revelation of who he is. Glory in the Old Testament was presented in terms of both a person and a light (Ezekiel 1). These two images come together here in the person of Jesus. Jesus radiating light reveals to us that the Father is not like the pagan gods who need worshipers to bring him glory, as if they are lacking in some way. The Father is self-sufficient and sustaining like the sun. His life is a life of giving, going out and bringing warmth and life. The Father we see in Jesus is not a God turned inward, needing the praise from humans but rather a God of love, radiating life outward to his creation. Jesus’ transfiguration gives us yet another glorious epiphany.

Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him. They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions were weighed down with sleep; but since they had stayed awake, they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. (Luke 9:30-32 NRSV)

As the Transfiguration takes place, we see Moses and Elijah appear on the scene talking to Jesus. Here, Luke offers an additional insight into the conversation that Matthew and Mark do not include. They are “speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.” Notice how Luke encapsulates this conversation in terms of glory, also a unique contribution from Luke. Moses and Elijah “appeared in glory” while speaking with Jesus and afterward “Peter and his companions…saw his [Jesus] glory and the two men who stood with him.” In addition to the glory of God being presented in terms of a person and light, Luke connects Jesus’ passion as part of that glory. This means that the love displayed by Jesus on the cross for sinners like you and me is not just an exception to how God relates to us. It is a revelation, another epiphany, of who God is in his very being.

The Father’s outgoing light and love in the person of Jesus is not repelled by our sin and darkness, but rather he goes out, even at great cost to himself, to bring revelation and reconciliation. The Father’s love for us does not settle by leaving us in our darkness and alienation. He wants us to know him and to receive the life of love he has for us. Seeing God’s glory in terms of suffering will certainly call us to rethink how we understand God and his relationship to us. This is another epiphany that calls forth a response of repentance, changing our minds about how we think of God and his relationship to us.

Peter’s response to seeing Jesus’ glory is to speak: “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah” to which Luke adds that Peter did not know what he was saying. Peter’s response begins well by calling Jesus “Master,” and he is grateful to be able to witness the Transfiguration. But his response indicates he does not fully see the implications of God’s glory revealed in Jesus. Notice how Peter’s words contrast to the revelation of God as light and love.

Peter here is turned inward. He has determined for himself what is good, and that goodness is to be kept on the mountain for those who are present. It doesn’t occur to him that the nature of light and love is to go out and be shared with others. Also, Peter’s suggestion to build three shelters falls short of God’s purposes in Jesus. First, Peter wants to control the experience. He wants to remain on the mountain with Moses, Elijah and Jesus. By building shelters, he feels he can extend their time on the mountain and capture this “mountaintop” experience. His thinking seems limited only to how this benefits him and his companions. His second shortcoming in his suggestion implies that Moses and Elijah are equals to Jesus, each deserving of their own shelter. Jesus has no equal. He alone is worthy of worship.

While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were terrified as they entered the cloud. Then from the cloud came a voice that said, “This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!” When the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and in those days told no one any of the things they had seen. (Luke 9:34-35 NRSV)

Peter’s selfish suggestions are interrupted when “a cloud came and overshadowed them.” The Father does not scold or reprimand Peter. But he also does not negotiate or entertain Peter’s suggestions. He just goes right on with his purposes. While Peter wanted to provide cover for Jesus, Moses and Elijah, God ends up providing cover for the three disciples.

The word “overshadowed” here is picking up the language in the old covenant of God’s “Shekinah” or presence. Despite Peter’s self-focused intentions, God’s outward movement of love is not thwarted. He covers them with his grace. Then the Father’s voice is heard saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!” Peter’s response to seeing God’s glory was to speak, but the Father instructs him that his response should be to listen. This too, is God’s grace to them. He does not leave them in their inappropriate response. He leads them to respond in a fitting manner to what they just witnessed.

This can be encouraging for us as we recount our many failures of responding to the Lord. How often have we responded in ways that do not fit the epiphanies we are given? God’s grace, his light and love, does not leave us trapped in our poor responses, but he instructs and guides us by his Spirit to align our responses to his revelations to us. God is not looking to zap us for our missteps, but rather he is continually calling us to a deeper walk with him.

Also notice that the disciples were “terrified as they entered the cloud.” This captures the story of the Israelites with Moses, who were afraid to hear from God directly. But the voice heard here directs their ears to listen to the Chosen Son. Jesus is God’s Word spoken to us. With the epiphanies we see in Jesus, we are not left to fear God’s Word spoken to us. His words to us are words of life. And as Luke records, “Jesus was found alone” after God’s instruction to “listen to him.” There was no Moses, no Elijah, just Jesus alone. There is no other voice to listen to if we are to hear God’s words of life. Jesus alone is God’s Word to us. Jesus alone is the Father’s self-revelation. Jesus alone is our true Epiphany that our response swings on.

Now we have concluded the epiphany story of the Transfiguration and Luke concludes this story by linking it back to Jesus’ baptism with the Father speaking the words, “This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!” If you have been following the stories of the Epiphany season, you may recall that the season began with the story of Jesus’ baptism, where we also hear the Father’s voice saying similarly, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased” (Luke 3:22). In this way, Luke has created a section of his Gospel between these two stories. Much of what falls within this section finds its way on the liturgical calendar for the season of Epiphany. But Luke includes a follow-up story that helps us see what these epiphanies add up to.

Luke has been intentional to include Jesus’ upcoming crucifixion and death as having something to do with his “glory.” The disciples struggled to see suffering as fitting for a Messiah’s glory. We too may have problems seeing how suffering fits in with understanding God’s glory and our response to seeing his glory. But Jesus is not done in displaying God’s glory on a mountain. He will once again find himself on a mountain in prayer and accompanied by two men speaking with him. Only this time it will be on Mount Calvary and his companions will not be Moses and Elijah, but two criminals.

Luke’s follow-up story connected with the Transfiguration foreshadows what will take place on this other mountaintop experience where God’s glory will once again be revealed.

On the next day, when they had come down from the mountain, a great crowd met him. Just then a man from the crowd shouted, “Teacher, I beg you to look at my son; he is my only child. Suddenly a spirit seizes him, and all at once he shrieks. It convulses him until he foams at the mouth; it mauls him and will scarcely leave him. I begged your disciples to cast it out, but they could not.” Jesus answered, “You faithless and perverse generation, how much longer must I be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here.” While he was coming, the demon dashed him to the ground in convulsions. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the boy, and gave him back to his father. And all were astounded at the greatness of God. (Luke 9:37-43 NRSV)

After Jesus and his disciples come down the mountain, Jesus alone is able to answer the distraught request of the man from the crowd. Before Jesus’ Transfiguration on the mountain, he was praying to the Father. After Jesus comes down the mountain, a desperate father is praying to him. The disciples are not able to answer this man’s request. Jesus alone is the one who will bring healing and deliverance to the man’s tortured son. The description Luke gives mirrors what Jesus will accomplish on Mount Calvary.

First, “Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit…” Just as the son’s condition is attributed to demonic forces, so has humanity been seized by sin and evil. But on the cross, we see the Son, once and for all, claiming victory over evil. Satan and his demonic realm will finally have to leave at Jesus’ coming.

Second, Jesus “healed the boy…” Jesus goes to the cross, not only to abolish everything that stands against us, but he also provides healing from all the damage sin and evil have caused.

And lastly, Jesus “gave him back to his father.” It is here we see the Father’s glory displayed in accomplishing his purpose of “bringing many sons to glory” through the suffering of Christ (Hebrews 2:10). Jesus on Mount Calvary brings reconciliation, giving us back to his Father in heaven.

In Jesus, we are set free, made whole, and brought back into restored relationship with the Father. Both mountains Jesus climbed give us a view of God’s glory. We see in these stories that God is for us and nothing, not even death itself, will stand between him and his children. As we come to see Jesus and the revelation of the Father he brings, we will agree with Luke’s final sentence recorded in this passage: “And all were astounded at the greatness of God.”

Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner W4

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Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner
February 27 – Transfiguration Sunday
Luke 9:28-36 “Listen to Him!”

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Program Transcript


Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner Week 4

Kenneth, our final pericope is Luke 9: 28 – 36. It is the passage and reading for transfiguration Sunday. Would you read it please?

Kenneth: Yes.

Now about eight days after these sayings Jesus took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. And while he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him. They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions were weighed down with sleep; but since they had stayed awake, they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. Just as they were leaving him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said. While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were terrified as they entered the cloud. Then from the cloud came a voice that said, “This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!” When the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and in those days told no one any of the things they had seen.

Anthony: For whatever it’s worth, I really enjoy listening to you read. So, what’s the big deal about transfiguration Sunday and why do so many Christians choose to celebrate the day every year, you think?

Kenneth: You’re asking the wrong person because I will keep you for an hour. The chapter on transfiguration in my book that’s coming out is about 5,500 words. There’s so much here. And of course, Peter remembers this. That’s really interesting to me that Peter knows he’s going to be executed.

And the church is in a terrible state of persecution, and everyone’s suffering. And he says to them (this is in 1 Peter) he said, “I want you to remember something.” And he doesn’t go to the cross (where Peter wasn’t – remember John and the women were the only ones that were there) but he goes to someplace he was, and he goes to the transfiguration, to Tabor, and to this vision.

And he says, we didn’t devise a myth when we bore witness to what we saw on the mountain. In other words, we didn’t take these great figures from our history, as a people and weave them together with Christ to make up a beautiful story that elevates Jesus. No, we saw this happen in the real world. And then the conversation, what was the conversation about? The conversation was about the cross, because the conversation the human God is always having with the law and the prophets is about self-giving love. It is about the God who loves the world and who lays down his life for love of the world.

And of course, they’re on the mountain and the cloud descends, the Spirit of God, and they hear the voice of the Father, a Trinitarian moment. This is my Son, my chosen. Listen to him. And then Moses and Elijah are gone and it’s just Jesus, which I think is also trying to tell us something. There’s the preeminence of Christ, the law and the prophets have been taken up into him and transfigured in his flesh, inscripturated flesh of Jesus.

Anyway, like I said, I can talk about it for a long time.

Anthony: As we think about this theophany, and you’ve already touched on it, maybe there’s some more that you want to say, but just as I’ve looked at the Greek in this, it’s almost like Moses and Elijah and Jesus have had an ongoing conversation, but here are the patriarchs just showing up on the scene.

That seems a little abnormal, so what do we take away?

Kenneth: One of the ways that I think about it is time bending. I think the transfiguration is about the resurrection. I’m the God of the living, not the dead.

So, Moses and Elijah are here embodied again in the world long after their deaths. This isn’t telepathy that’s going on here. They’re speaking, you have tongues. You have to have a tongue to speak.

This is a revelation that death doesn’t have anything to do with Moses and Elijah anymore. Or of anyone who is in connection and relationship with Christ and want to inhabit this conversation of self-sacrificial love. And so, one could think about it as this moment is Christ and Moses on Sinai, Christ and Elijah on Sinai and so forth and so on.

And it’s converging on this, because here we’re dealing with the eternal one who, every moment when he shares time with us, he’s bringing his eternity to you with him. So, we have to get out of the chronological space with it.

And obviously, Elijah and Moses are the law and the prophets. And it goes to say that all that is in the law and all that’s in the prophets is taken up into our Lord. And so, we don’t leave them behind when we follow Jesus, but recognize that he’s their fulfillment. Including of course, what he’s just said earlier in the gospel, the priority about the poor and loving your neighbor and loving your enemy, which is what it means to be God.

Anthony: Yeah. As we wrap up our time in this particular reading, it says, “They saw his glory.” And glory is, though it’s a small word, it’s big. It’s weighty. We see it in the Old and the New [Testaments.] What are we really talking about when we talk about the glory of God revealed in Jesus?

Kenneth: Yeah. Isaiah’s writes, “It filled the temple, the train of his robe.” [Isaiah 6] And then, the seraphim and the cherubim flying around, it’s indescribable. I mean, the light that is coming from Jesus in the transfiguration is not a reflection. He is radiating.

In fact, I’m sitting across from an icon of the transfiguration right now. These rays that are coming up from, coming from inside the reality of who he is and the uncreated light of heaven. Not the light of the star, not the light of the sun, or the light that reflects from the sun on the moon, but THE light, the source of light.

The light of the transfiguration that shines from Jesus is not like the light that helps us to see color and shape and texture and so forth. The uncreated light is the light, the glory that enables to see truly the nature of the things that we behold and, reveals to us, if we were in the midst of it, the things that we cannot see of the glory of the world. There’s a lot of the glory of God that’s hidden in this fallen world.

And in everything that is, exists, is somewhat fallen from the fullness of what it was in creation. And the glory of God is to the revealing of the true nature of everything that God creates. And so, the uncreated light helps us to see what normally we cannot see: the verity, and the goodness, and the beauty, (verity just meaning truth) the goodness, and beauty of things and people.

And so, the resurrection, which we can live now – the Orthodox, “let us love our enemies and forgive all by the resurrection” – it just gives us a different perspective. That light, that glory gives us a different perspective on reality than we normally would have.

Anthony: You mentioned that you have a forthcoming book that has a chapter about the transfiguration. For those who are interested, when is it coming out? What’s it called?

Kenneth: Well, this is a long – I’ll make a short story of it. I’ve been working on this for about 12 years. And in the last several years, people [have said], “You have got to do this, you’ve got to do this.” And I spend a lot of time in pastoral work, and so writing is always something I’m doing on the side. But as it happens, I’m any day now, getting ready to sign a two-book contract with Baker Books. The first book is called Vulnerable God.

It’s about Jesus. And it takes the transfiguration as a feast of the first Christians, of the church for a long time, it takes all of the (you wouldn’t really know this, if you weren’t a liturgical, sacramental Christian), but it takes all of the moments of the life of Christ that the church calendar elevates, the sacred year elevates, and where we worship specific events: Ascension Transfiguration, Easter, Temptation, and so forth, presentation at the temple and so forth, Christmas, the Incarnation. And I use those to try to illustrate the vulnerability and humility of God in becoming human. And how this humility is the essence of what it means to be human, but also humility is the essence of what it means to be God.

And so, it’s a journey through all of those feasts, which are commemorations of realities from the life of Jesus as a human, including the Ascension where he remains human forever and eternity, and just tries to disclose what we have seen of his glory in these events.

And then there’s a follow-up book called Beautiful Faith, which is an expedition of the Apostle’s creed. But it’s actually going to take a moment for these books to come out the way we’re planning it. But anyway in 2023, Vulnerable God is supposed to appear with Baker Books.

Anthony: I’m anticipating it. As someone who is new to liturgical faith and experiencing the sacredness of the calendar and how beautiful it is, the rhythms of the Christian life through the calendar has been eye opening. Advent has taken on new life for me. I am reading Fleming Rutledge’s book on Advent. And it’s just wow! It’s staggering.

Kenneth: You’re reading the right person.

Anthony: Brother, I thank you for being a part of this conversation. You have been a blessing to me. And so, it was a great joy to invite you onto this podcast and for you to say yes. So, thank you for being a part of it.

Kenneth: Yeah, my privilege. I’m so grateful to be with you.

Anthony: And as we typically end, I’d like to ask for you to say a prayer over our listeners, especially those, as we talked about earlier, who are grieving, maybe feeling like their nets are coming up empty, just in a place of sorrow would you specifically pray for them?

Kenneth: Amen.

Christ our God, we, all of us, acknowledge our poverty. We thank you that you became poor as we are poor in order to endow us with all the fullness and richness that you share and have shared from before time and forever with your Father and Spirit.

We ask that you would come and meet us in our poverty as the one who is poor in spirit, who is blessed because he’s poor in spirit. We ask that you would come to us in the storms of this life and be our anchor. And we thank you for entering the desert of our hunger and feeding us. We thank you for being the one who goes willingly into the pain and suffering of the cross to be in solidarity with us in death and to rescue us from the grave, raising us back up into the life you share forever with the Father and the Spirit, raising our human nature, and all of us together with you into the very life of God.

Help us to remember and have many reminders of the resurrection in this world that is deceptive and divisive and challenging. Give us, as I bless Tate’s father, many reminders of the resurrection in the days and weeks and months and years that lie ahead.

Help us to see abundance where it feels like there’s only a lack. Help us to see you in all the pages of the scriptures. Especially these texts that we were privileged to meditate on today. Help us always to find you there and in the bread and wine on the table that you set in the presence of our enemies, where we are surrounded by all of the heavenly hosts and all who are not dead but alive in you for you send us into the world to catch men alive. And that’s a participation in your work.

In the name of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, we pray. Amen.


Small Group Discussion Questions

From Speaking of Life

  • What did you think of the illustration of the friend’s “epiphany” of seeing the “Welcome to Kentucky” sign? Does this help link the epiphanies we have in seeing Christ and the changes they bring in our lives?
  • Can you think of any epiphanies you have had from Jesus that amounted to a change or even a “complete turnaround” in your life?

From the sermon

  • The sermon began by explaining the link between the season of Epiphany and the season of Lent. It was said that epiphanies are revelations that lead to repentance, changes in our life that come about after seeing a reality we had once been in the dark about. Was this helpful in understanding the season of Epiphany a little better?
  • What were some insights you had from Luke’s variations to the Transfiguration story? What did you think of Luke putting the story in the context of prayer?
  • What insights stood out to you about God’s glory being displayed in the person of Jesus radiating light? What are some things we can come to know about God’s nature from the image of radiating light?
  • The sermon stated that Luke is the only author to include the conversation between Jesus, Moses and Elijah concerning his departure or death. How does this addition fill out our understanding of God’s glory? What does it tell us about who God is?
  • Discuss some of the ways Peter’s response to seeing the Transfiguration of Jesus was inappropriate. Can you think of similar ways we may try to control an experience of Jesus for self-serving means?
  • Can you see God’s grace in the Father “overshadowing” Peter when he was speaking without thinking? Can you think of times when the Father was graceful to you by ignoring your request and moving forward with his purposes?
  • With Moses and Elijah removed from the scene, Luke presents Jesus as the only one to listen to. Also, the story Luke includes as a follow-up to the Transfiguration shows Jesus as the only one who is able to answer the father’s request to heal his son. What epiphanies can we glean by seeing Jesus alone as God’s Word spoken to us, as well as the only one to whom we can turn to have our words heard and answered?
  • The sermon presented Jesus’ healing of the boy as a picture of the gospel. Discuss how the three things Jesus did picture what he has done for all people who come to him. 1. “Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit…” 2. Jesus “healed the boy…” and 3. Jesus “gave him back to his father.”
  • Are there any other epiphanies you had from this passage and the sermon you would like to share?