GCI Equipper

The Hardest Part of Leadership

Bringing challenge is less about confrontation and more about love and the 4 Es.

I often hear pastors and leaders share their struggle to bring up tough topics with their leadership teams. “I struggle with confrontation.” “If I bring this up, I’m afraid she will leave.” “He already has enough on his plate; I hate to bring this challenge.” “I’m more concerned about my relationship with her, than about what she said during Bible Study.” “I believe showing grace is more important than challenging his overdue reports.”

Let me be transparent. Like most of you, I often struggle with bringing challenge because of my own self-preservation. I don’t want to be considered a tough guy; I want to be known as a person of grace; I want people to like me. It’s easy to talk about high support, high challenge, and grace always, but most of us lean more toward the high support and grace always. We convince ourselves this is the best course of action; while the truth is, we are missing out on an opportunity to express the 4 Es, and to love others as Jesus loves us.

I have come to ask myself, “Do I love him/her enough to bring a challenge?” I’ve engaged, I’ve empowered, I’ve equipped, and now I’d rather encourage than challenge. But wait a minute. Have I really equipped and empowered someone if I’m unwilling to bring a challenge that will make them a better leader?

I submit that high support and grace always must include bringing high challenge, and I submit that Jesus set the example for us. He challenged his mother, Martha, and the disciples to think differently, to act differently, to have different expectations, and ultimately, to join him in his mission and ministry. He did this to prepare them for what was to come, knowing they would face persecution, and many would be martyred. The following are a few examples. Notice the challenge, and ask yourself, what might have come from those challenges?

  • Mary: When Mary came to her son and said, they have no more wine, his response is a gentle challenge. What concern is this to you or me? My hour has not yet come (John 2:4). This challenge was to remind his mother whose authority he was under.
  • The disciples and children: When people started bringing their children to Jesus, the disciples rebuked the parents. Jesus challenged their hearts and motivation, telling them they needed a childlike heart to enter the kingdom of God (Mark 10:15 NRSV). Luke tells us about a time the disciples were arguing about who was greatest. Jesus said that welcoming a child was welcoming him, and then he told them the least among them would be the greatest (Luke 9:46-48).
  • James and John: They asked that Jesus promise to sit them at his right and left hand when they were all in glory. He asked them if they could drink the cup he drinks or be baptized with his baptism (Mark 10:38). He challenged them another time when they asked him if they could command fire to come down from heaven and consume a Samaritan village (Luke 9:52-55). This time his challenge came as a rebuke.
  • Disciples on Sea of Galilee: Jesus was asleep on the boat when a storm came, and they were afraid they would perish. He challenged them to have more faith – to understand who he is (Matthew 8:23-27).
  • Martha: When Martha complained that Mary wasn’t helping her, he challenged her to be more like Mary and learn from him (Luke 10:38-42).
  • The eleven: After his resurrection he appeared to the eleven and challenged them about their lack of faith and disbelief. He told them to get up and go do what they were commissioned to do (Mark 16:14-18).
  • Peter: When Jesus told his disciple about his upcoming death, and Peter started to rebuke him, Jesus reminded Peter that his mind was in the wrong place (Mark 8:31-33).

Jesus said many hard sayings that come across as uncomfortable challenges. Some of the challenges come out as a correction or a rebuke. But his motivation was always to help his followers grow and be the leaders he knew them to be. In particular, he was preparing the disciples for the ministry and mission they would face. It’s true that Jesus accepts and loves us just the way we are, but it’s also true that he loves us too much to leave us the way we are. I submit that loving others as Jesus loves us will give us many opportunities to bring high support and high challenge, and to always do so in grace.

Questions for reflection:

  • Where do you see a need for high challenge in the 4 Es?
    • With engaging leaders?
    • With empowering leaders?
    • With equipping leaders?
    • With encouraging leaders?
  • What is keeping you from bringing high challenge to one of your team members?
  • What is keeping you from bringing high challenge to yourself?

May we start to see that loving others as Jesus loves us means being willing to bring high challenge so that others have opportunity to grow in their relationship with God and with others.

Rick Shallenberger
Editor

PS: From Greg Williams. In the support/challenge matrix, it is high challenge that moves toward the quadrant of liberation. So, it can feel like domination and lacking grace. However, I would argue that high challenge is a loftier expression of grace. Instead of leaving a person in a state of misunderstanding or worse, not operating in the flow of God’s will and mission, it is a graceful act to speak the truth to them and encourage them to change their thinking and actions. Always speak the truth out of the posture of love – the apostle Paul recommends it!

PPS: Check out a new podcast I am cohosting with Josh McDonald, called Geocaching Scripture: Tiny Truths in the Big Truth. You can find it on Spotify.

Helping Visitors Feel Welcome

Can first time visitors figure out our customs and liturgy?

By Tim Sitterley, Regional Director US West

I will never forget my first visit to a Catholic mass. Having grown up in WCG/GCI, I had no idea what to expect. What was up with people dipping their fingers in a water basin upon entering? The first time there was a call and response in the liturgy, and everyone responded loudly with the Kyrie Eleison (Lord have mercy), I almost jumped out of my skin. But after a couple of responses, I was ready, only to find out as I shouted “Kyrie Eleison,” that the response had now changed to Christe Eleison (Christ have mercy). People would kneel, and as I was kneeling, they stood back up. I was smart enough to stay in my seat during the Eucharist, and I slipped quietly out the back door while the ushers were thrusting an offering basket on a pole in front of each parishioner. I have no idea what happened after that.

Most of our worship services are not nearly as intricate and potentially confusing as a traditional Catholic mass. But that doesn’t mean that parts of our liturgy can’t be just as frustrating and scary to a first-time visitor, particularly if they don’t have much of a church background. Even our vocabulary can be intimidating. (“Washed in the blood” sounds like something from the TV show “Criminal Minds.”)

As one who visits congregations as part of my job, I’ve seen and experienced many things that would have me heading to the back door if I were new to the faith and looking for a church. Here are just a few examples … and I promise to not mention congregations by name.

I arrived at one congregation 20 minutes early and could not find a single person in the sanctuary. It was evident I was in the right place, but where were the people? It turns out that on certain days of the month they gather in another part of the rented church campus for breakfast. I wandered around until I heard voices, but a visitor would have been back in their car and on their way long before the members made their pilgrimage back to the sanctuary.

Times of praise and prayer can also be times of confusion and stress to visitors. In one congregation we spent 43 minutes talking about everyone’s problems (I’m not exaggerating). Imagine how that comes across to a first-time visitor when more time is spent sharing our problems than focusing on the solution – Jesus.

One congregation has everyone stand up for the reading of scripture. Do you sit or stand during the offering? (Is there consideration for those who are in pain when they stand?) Is the benediction the final word of the service, or is there something afterward? Is one of those people speaking to us the pastor? These are all relatively small issues for a visitor, but they do add up quickly. The last thing a visitor wants is to be spotlighted by their own actions (and they certainly shouldn’t be spotlighted from the stage).

And the biggest and most confusing piece of liturgy a first-time visitor will encounter in our congregational worship service is communion. I’ve seen the invitation to the Lord’s table conducted in so many ways that, even though this is the world I work in, I’m sometimes confused as to what to expect. Are the elements passed? Do I take them immediately, or do I wait for further instructions? Do we get up and go somewhere to get the elements? Who is invited to take the elements? And don’t get me started on proper traditions for intinction (dipping the bread into the communal cup), if that is your style.

I attended a service where the communion elements are available each week on a table at the side of the sanctuary, but the congregation only celebrates communion collectively once a month. The other weeks members are free to get up at any time during the service to privately take the elements if they so choose. Most people get up during the last song. Unfortunately for a first-time couple, when several in their row got up (with no announcement or instructions from the stage) and went to the table, the couple assumed this is what everyone did. They retrieved the bread and wine and waited for instructions for when to partake – instructions that never came, leaving them to quickly take the elements after the benediction while people around them introduced themselves.

At the end of the day, there is a simple solution to avoid first-time confusion, embarrassment, and visitors slipping quietly out the door. Three easy steps: communication, communication, and communication. First, always plan for visitors, and explain to the members that we are always planning for visitors.

Are the elements of your weekly worship liturgy outlined in your handout bulletin?

  • Speaker and his/her role. (Elder, youth pastor, assistant pastor, etc.)
  • Order of services.
  • Written instructions for the offering and communion.
  • Location of restrooms and fellowship hall.

If you really want to get a feel for how visitor-friendly your worship customs and liturgy are, you can always do what a pastor friend of mine did. He asked a neighbor, who didn’t do church at all, if he and his wife would attend one of their services and give him some feedback. He was amazed (and somewhat saddened) by the observations given to him. Some radical changes were made in the weekly service, from training for the greeters to a list of “reminders” of things to clarify that were laminated and attached to the lectern.

Shortly before COVID I was invited to attend a congregation outside my region, and the experience opened my eyes to the possibilities. Few people there beyond the pastor knew me, so for all practical purposes I was a first-time visitor. I was greeted in the parking lot by a couple of teens. They introduced me by name to a greeter at the door who walked with me into the sanctuary. I was introduced by name to the ladies at the coffee table and loaded up with a cup of fresh coffee and a doughnut. After a quick tour of the building, I was handed a bulletin that answered almost any question a visitor could ask. By the time the pastor saw me and made it clear I was not a potential new member, I already felt totally at home in that service.

A healthy church is intentional in communicating to visitors. The sooner we can impart the “what,” the sooner our visitors can focus on the “why” and the “who.” May our customs and liturgy never get in the way of the “who.”

The Shepherding Side of Pastoring

Participating with Jesus in shepherding his flock is one of my greatest blessings.

By Marty Davey, Pastor, GCI Jacksonville

I was recently reflecting on Jesus being our good shepherd and was reminded of our role as “under-shepherds” participating with Christ as ministry leaders and pastors. Paul refers to the call to pastor as grace that has been given (Ephesians 4:7-11). It is a spiritual and supernatural grace, which means gift, given to specific believers to help the whole Body of Christ.

The word “pastors” here in Ephesians 4 is the Greek word “poimenas,” which means shepherd. A shepherd is one who leads, feeds, and protects the flock. This is the same Greek word that Jesus used in John 21 the second time he asked Peter if he loved him and added, “tend my sheep” or “take care of my sheep.” Peter, and all subsequent pastors, are called to participate with Jesus in shepherding his beloved flock. Peter also uses this terminology when giving instruction to elders (1 Peter 5:2).

What does Jesus, as well as Peter, have in mind when they exhort ministers to be shepherds? A good place to look is John 10 where Jesus describes what he, as the good shepherd, will do. Then he draws contrasts between himself and bad shepherds. Jesus describes himself as the one who knows and calls the sheep by name, who leads them out to good pasture and goes ahead of them. He says he gives them life to the full, saves them, and won’t leave them when danger comes, but would instead lay down his own life for them.

The bad shepherd, so to speak, is there for himself, not showing genuine care for the sheep, and is unwilling to sacrifice for them. One is reminded of the selfish and failing shepherds of Israel that God inspired Ezekiel to call out in chapter 34 of his prophecy. His criticisms include that they “only take care of yourselves,” and “you do not take care of the flock. You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. So they were scattered …” (Ezekiel 34:3-5 NIV). By noting what the selfish shepherds didn’t do, we see what the Lord expects good shepherds, pastors shepherding under Jesus, to do: strengthen the weak, heal and bind up the hurting, seek the lost and straying, and bring them back. This is what healthy pastors do.

As we in GCI endeavor to upgrade and improve our management-based leadership skills in Team Based – Pastor Led leadership, we can look at the 4 Es as mechanics (Engage, Equip, Empower, Encourage), but they also cover the fundamental calling of pastors to be shepherds.

I try to keep this in my own mind as a pastor by using the acronym “LESS” – which also reminds me that pastoring requires less self-serving and more self-denial, and less reliance upon physical methods and mechanics and more reliance upon spiritual methods and qualities. The shepherding aspects of pastoring are, for me, summed up in these four aspects as represented by the letters L, E, S, S.

L — Love the flock, including both those in the flock and those not yet in. (Engage)

E — Exhort the flock through teaching to nourish the flock with the truth of Jesus and God’s will. (Equip and Empower)

S — Shepherd the flock – tend, care for, bind up, visit, seek out, provide healing comfort. (Encourage)

S — Serve the flock, as Jesus did, according to his teaching that those who are truly great leaders will be serving. (All 4 Es)

Ephesians 4:11 speaks of pastors doing “works of service,” which is what “ministry” means. Many commentaries point out that the grammar of the Greek in these verses more naturally connects this phrase to the actions and expectations of the pastors. Yes, we want our ministry leaders to also Engage, Equip, Empower, and Encourage, but we must never forget that the responsibility to lead by example is on pastors. We are to lead with a genuine loving, caring, and serving attitude of one willing to wash the feet of others, as did our Lord.

For me, I consider my calling to be a pastor as one of my greatest blessings. Thank you, Jesus, for this wonderful grace, this gift, to serve your flock!

Process of Development: Encourage

Encouragement includes both call up and affirm.

By Cara Garrity, Development Coordinator

The fourth E of the 4 Es in our Process of Development is Encourage. Have you ever had an experience when someone tried to encourage you, but it was not encouraging at all? Maybe they provided impersonal words that felt like they weren’t really for you. Or you could tell they were trying to provide encouragement because they felt obligated, not because they meant it. What does it mean to really encourage?

To encourage in GCI ministry is both to call up and affirm. Encouragement provides support, confidence, or hope for another. It can include providing fuel for another to keep going or the challenge needed to start going. Encouragement is more than a generic, half-hearted “good job, kid.” It is not empty platitudes. It is personal, it is specific, it is purposeful. In other words, it is intentional.

When we think about encouragement, I suspect that the practices that affirm come to mind first. These practices include: cheering someone on, giving them positive feedback on their work, sharing prayer, or affirming their strengths and achievements. I would also bet that most of us find this part of encouragement easier.

Another important piece of encouragement is to call up. This is the side of encouragement that can provide fuel to keep going or the challenge needed to grow in a new way. These practices include: providing constructive feedback, challenging someone to take the next step in their ministry development, or drawing out someone’s fuller potential. Note that the intent, posture, and even delivery of this form of encouragement affects the impact. It can determine whether a person feels “called up” or “called out.” I think we can all agree that being “called out” is not an encouraging feeling.

Why is it important to include both call up and affirm in our encouragement? As we partner with one another in our ministry development, speaking words of life and affirming God’s good purposes for one another is an essential way to ground our development in who we are in Christ. Calling up acknowledges that we serve a God who is at work in our midst, who continues to transform us and draw us into participation in his ministry.

Encouragement that only affirms risks stagnation and complacency. Encouragement that only calls up risks self-reliance and striving. Encouragement that holds both calling up and affirmation together holds the potential to provide support, confidence, hope, fuel, spark, challenge, and more as we grow as a priesthood of all believers with one another.

Some questions to consider:

  1. How do you feel about these two pieces of encouragement?
  2. How can you encourage your team this month?
  3. What might you have to change to begin encouraging your ministry team more consistently and specifically?

Church Hack: We Believe Part 2

An essential part of a Healthy Church is the Faith Avenue. The Faith Avenue creates spaces outside of the Sunday gathering where discipleship can occur. Through the study of God’s word, along with communion with God and one another, God is conforming us to Jesus’ image through a life of faith and obedience.

We are excited to release the second workbook in the We Believe series. The We Believe curriculum is a resource formatted to explore our core beliefs through individual study and communal discussion. We Believe is grounded in Scripture and expressive of GCI’s statement of beliefs and Incarnational Trinitarian Theology. For more info read this month’s church hack, linked below:

2023-CH7-WeBelieve2.pdf (gci.org)
#gcichurchhacks

Being a Neighbor

What if Jesus is intentional when he puts us in the path of another?

By Bill Hall, National Director, Canada

It all started when my son, Liam, was signing up for Beavers (the program preceding Cub Scouts). We’d only been in our community a few weeks when we decided to get Liam involved in the scouting movement, as his older sister had been involved with Girl Guides since she was five.

While standing in line to fill out the application, Joan, the Beaver leader, asked, “Would you like to help as a leader?” I said I was willing to give it a go, and the rest, as they say, is history. Over the past 25 years we have developed a relationship with Joan’s family. Her husband, Jeff, was a Cub Scout leader, and I transitioned to serving that age group when my son moved up the ranks of the Scout movement.

We’ve seen their children grow up at the same pace as our two children and have spent many a New Year’s Eve at Joan and Jeff’s country home. They even came to our church for one of our harvest supper outreach events.

But when it comes to an invitation to church, Joan told me early on that she is “spiritual” but not a Christian.

But that is not the point of my story.

I’m a firm believer that Jesus puts us into the paths of people for a reason. And you never know what that means.

I find it interesting that when Jesus sends out the 72 to be his messengers about the presence of the Kingdom of God, he makes this statement: “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves” (Luke 10: 2-3 NIV).

I’ve often prayed that God would provide workers for the harvest, without realizing he was talking to me. We are the ones who are to love our neighbor as Jesus has loved us and loves them (Luke 10:27).

Back to Joan and Jeff. One day I received a panicked phone call from Joan mentioning that Jeff was in a crisis, and she didn’t know how to help him. She asked if I could come over to their house. I dropped everything and rushed over.

When I sat down with Jeff, he told me he had just returned from the South Pacific after spending two weeks there. He related how that past summer he had met a foreign doctor who was on a contract in the community and was an ardent sailor. Jeff invited him to join his local sailing club and their relationship grew over the summer. When it was time for the doctor to go back to the South Pacific, he invited Jeff to visit and go sailing on his sailboat.

Jeff decided to take him up on the invitation and visited him in January during the worst of our Canadian winter. His visit was exciting, filled with days on the doctor’s sailboat and experiencing village life on the island where the doctor lived. He stayed at his friend’s home and got to know the doctor’s wife.

One day, the doctor suggested they go snorkeling in the coral lagoon that surrounded the island. So they traveled down to the beach and snorkeled, while the doctor’s wife sat on the beach reading her book.

Snorkeling was a wonderful experience in the warm and calm clear waters of the lagoon. Then the doctor asked if Jeff was up for a little excitement. He urged Jeff to join him in swimming outside of the coral reef. But as soon as they were out in the open waters of the Pacific, they hit strong currents that flowed past the protective coral reef. Jeff said it took all his ability to keep afloat and not to be overcome with panic.

Jeff was about to suggest they return to the safety of the lagoon when the doctor disappeared. Jeff tried to find him, but feared for his own life and barely made it back to the lagoon.

Once he made it to the beach, he told the doctor’s wife what had happened, and she raised the alarm with the local authorities. Her friends arrived and started to scour the beach of the lagoon, and the US Coast Guard sent a rescue ship and helicopter to search the open ocean. (The search went on for a couple of days, but his friend’s body was never found).

For the next several days, while waiting for his scheduled flight to return home, Jeff tried to offer his support to the grieving widow, as she and her friends dealt with her husband’s death. But he felt so inadequate.

This is the background to what I faced that day. Jeff was clearly in crisis as he relived the trauma of those previous weeks.

What did I do? Mostly I listened and along the way I acknowledged his trauma and offered words of encouragement. The best love I could give to my neighbor was to simply be there with him and listen.

Looking back at that conversation, I can’t help but be honored that our relationship was such that he allowed me into his personal space in that moment of time. That day I was able to show love for my neighbor in a way I would never have imagined. This is just one example of how God invites us to join him in sharing his love and life with others. I’m sure you have a similar story.

Jesus and TikTok

In 1992, Andrew Grove, then CEO of the tech giant Intel, was quoted by The New York Times as saying that the idea of a “wireless personal communicator” in every pocket was “a pipe dream driven by greed.” As I write this article, I have a “wireless personal communicator” in my pocket, and you may be using yours to read this article. If not, you likely have one nearby. Andrew Grove was proven wrong. Ironically, insiders in the technology sector, like PCWorld, predict that your next cell phone will likely be powered by an Intel chip. It is safe to say that Intel now believes in the pipe dream.

The head of one of the biggest technology companies in the world could not see the potential of cell phones – devices that are now a part of ordinary life for most of the world. This is just one example of the human proclivity to reject new technologies, even when those technologies could improve our lives. Today, many in the church have not bought into TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, and other social media platforms despite their overwhelming popularity among younger generations. Christian adults that engage with social media are often primarily concerned about how to keep young people safe while online. Yes, there are elements of social media that should cause us concern, and we need to help our young people make wise decisions while in cyberspace. However, might we be missing the bigger picture? Perhaps social media can be a valuable resource in sharing the love of Christ and the good news of his kingdom.

Before we go any further, I am not advocating for Christian adults to take to TikTok with evangelism pitches and moral messages for young people. That would likely only result in young people migrating in droves to another platform. Instead, what if we equipped our young people to understand mission and how to genuinely share their faith through relationship? Most young people are attracted to social media because they are looking to connect with others. Perhaps we can work with the younger generations and support them in talking about Jesus in their own language (technology is a language) as the Holy Spirit creates opportunities. This starts with being genuinely curious about how and why your young people use social media. Then, after spending some time getting to understand mission (I would suggest reading Surprise the World by Michael Frost or Flesh by Hugh Halter), brainstorm with them the best ways to engage their neighbors on social media. Of course, you should discuss how to be wise and safe online, but do so while putting more of an emphasis on being a blessing to those in need of light and hope.

I believe Paul would be on board with this approach. He wrote:

Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 9:19-23 NIV)

Like Paul, let us use every tool we can to share the good news about Jesus Christ. Social media can be used to harm others, but it can also be used to spread life. Jesus is at work all around us. I have to believe that he is at work on social media too. Given the influence of social media, your young people may turn out to be the most effective evangelists in your congregation!

Dishon Mills, Generations Ministry Coordinator

Gospel Reverb – The Art of Neighboring w/ Geordie Ziegler

Video unavailable (video not checked).

In this episode of Gospel Reverb, host, Anthony Mullins and Dr. Geordie Ziegler enlighten us through an engaging conversation unpacking this month’s lectionary.

Geordie recently became a Spiritual Formation Missionary for Imago Christi after spending 30 years in missions and pastoral ministry. Imago Christi is a community helping people experience the transforming rhythms of our Triune God through abiding, gathering, and missions. You can find more information about Imago Christi at their website www.imagochristi.org. Geordie is a theologian and author of Trinitarian Grace and Participation: An Entrance Into the Theology of Thomas F. Torrance. He earned a Ph.D. in Trinitarian Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

September 3 — Proper 17 of Ordinary Time
Romans 12:9-21, “The Art of Neighboring”

September 10 — Proper 18 of Ordinary Time
Romans 13:8-14, “Obligations of Love”

September 17 — Proper 19 of Ordinary Time
Romans 14:1-12, “Legalism and Liberty”

September 24 — Proper 20 of Ordinary Time
Philippians 1:21-30, “Live Worthy of the Gospel”


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Program Transcript


The Art of Neighboring w/ Geordie Ziegler

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.


Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view.

I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Geordie Ziegler. Geordie recently became a Spiritual Formation Missionary for Imago Christi after spending 30 years in missions and pastoral ministry. Imago Christi is a community helping people experience the transforming rhythms of our triune God through abiding, gathering, and missions. You can find more information about Imago Christi at their website www.imagochristi.org. Geordie is a theologian and author of Trinitarian Grace and Participation: An Entrance Into the Theology of Thomas F. Torrance. He earned a PhD in Trinitarian Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

Geordie, thank you for being with us and welcome back to the podcast. And I got to say, you must be a glutton for punishment to be willing to do this a second time, but we’re delighted that you agreed to.

It’s been quite some time since we had our last conversation. So, if you don’t mind, tell us what’s new in your life, and how are you participating with the Lord these days?

[00:01:56] Geordie: Yeah. Thank you, Anthony. It’s wonderful to be back with you. I really enjoyed our conversation last time and look forward to today. Yeah, as you mentioned already, this past year, my wife and I took a step back from local church pastoral ministry in order to become missionaries who serve the church at large through Imago Christi which is a Spiritual formation team of a larger mission called Novo. And this team, we work with pastors, missionaries, church leaders to support their life in Christ as you said.

But actually, the really exciting thing and new thing right now for us is that this coming weekend, our son is getting married. We’re thrilled for him. We love his bride and her family. So yeah, that’s big news for us. Lots of good energy in the house.

[00:02:55] Anthony: Yeah, it sounds like it. My wife, Elizabeth, and I have a daughter getting married in October, and we’re anxious to be in the place you are—just a week out—to celebrate that. So, congratulations. And congratulations on your vocation.

[00:03:09] Geordie: Thank you. Thank you.

[00:03:11] Anthony: We’re here to talk about the lectionary passages, so let’s get to it. Here are the four pericopes we’ll look at today.

Romans 12:9-21, “The Art of Neighboring”

Romans 13:8-14, “Obligations of Love”

Romans 14:1-12, “Legalism and Liberty”

Philippians 1:21-30, “Live Worthy of the Gospel”

Let’s turn our attention to the first pericope of the month. It’s Romans 12:9-21. I’ll be reading from the Common English Bible. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 17 in Ordinary Time, which falls on September 3.

Love should be shown without pretending. Hate evil, and hold on to what is good. 10 Love each other like the members of your family. Be the best at showing honor to each other. 11 Don’t hesitate to be enthusiastic—be on fire in the Spirit as you serve the Lord! 12 Be happy in your hope, stand your ground when you’re in trouble, and devote yourselves to prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of God’s people, and welcome strangers into your home. 14 Bless people who harass you—bless and don’t curse them. 15 Be happy with those who are happy, and cry with those who are crying. 16 Consider everyone as equal, and don’t think that you’re better than anyone else. Instead, associate with people who have no status. Don’t think that you’re so smart. 17 Don’t pay back anyone for their evil actions with evil actions, but show respect for what everyone else believes is good. 18 If possible, to the best of your ability, live at peace with all people. 19 Don’t try to get revenge for yourselves, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath. It is written, Revenge belongs to me; I will pay it back, says the Lord20 Instead, If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. By doing this, you will pile burning coals of fire upon his head21 Don’t be defeated by evil, but defeat evil with good.

Geordie, if you were teaching from this pericope there’s a lot of Christian living shoehorned into this, what would you focus on and why?

[00:05:41] Geordie: This is a crazy coincidence, but the first half of this passage is actually being read at my son’s wedding this coming weekend. When I saw that, I was pretty amazed. But if you imagine a married couple making this kind of promise to each other, to make this your intention, especially the first few verses. Love is not about pretending; it’s being real with each other.

It’s holding onto the good and not fixating on—it’s so easy. I’ve been married 33 years. It’s so easy to, at times, to—something maybe annoys me with my wife. And then I’m just fixated on that and holding onto that instead of holding onto so many good things.

And on down the line, I think the whole section is such a good challenge to how we would treat each other in close relationships and in relationships that aren’t quite as intimate as marriage. Showing honor to each other.

Being enthusiastic. The word—I’m checking it in a different translation for on your translation it says, beyond fire in the Spirit. I think sometimes it’s “your Spiritual fervor,” which is an interesting word. It both refers to fire and bubbling boiling. Just energized by the Spirit as you serve one another. So that certainly attracts my attention.

But I think I’d want to focus or emphasize that everything in this passage describes the way that God is revealed to be in Jesus. Jesus is all these things. There’s no description, there’s no command or call that God gives to us that he doesn’t describe himself in the first place. He’s not telling us to take out the trash because he’s too lazy to do it.

Maybe a second comment. If I were wanting to focus, I think it’s worth taking a little bit of time on verse 19 because that can easily get misunderstood. On the surface, it looks like it’s saying that God is a vengeful God paying back evil for evil. And I’ve heard that verse quoted often by those that insist that it’s in God’s character to be retributive and punish violently and eternally. But I think the text actually is making the opposite point, and we just need to keep reading the passage.

So, if we actually stopped at verse 20, but verse 21 continues—or no, you read verse 21. That’s the end. “So do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” And that’s how God overcomes evil. He doesn’t overcome it by retributive or violent punishment. He overcomes it his way, which is by his goodness.

[00:09:16] Anthony: Yeah, it reminds me, Geordie. I saw a quote from Bradley Jersak and he mentioned, when has guilt and shame retribution ever brought somebody to a loving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ? Because his way is mercy and when Jesus showed mercy, he wasn’t trying to change the Father’s heart toward that person or toward humanity, but revealing the heart, right? This is who God is and the way he operates.

[00:09:49] Geordie: Yeah. I think anytime it’s so easy for people to lift verses out of context and then use them in ways they aren’t meant to. So, this is, I think, a good test case or just even a good teaching opportunity for people to recognize, let’s read the big picture here.

Let’s see what Paul’s actually trying to do. There’re a couple ways I think to come at it. I think I was reading some—you mentioned Brad Jersak—I was reading I think something by him related to this. It was talking that verse 19 is actually quoting from Deuteronomy 32, which is a different emphasis.

Just because the Old Testament is quoted doesn’t mean the way it was meant in the Old Testament is the way they’re meaning it in the New Testament. So, in the Old Testament, it’s almost a celebration of vengeance. But it seems like Paul is subverting that original intent. And instead of advocating vengeance and violence, he’s actually promoting enemy love.

And this whole section is caught up in the relation to the state or to the government. And of course, we know the government that Paul is writing under is Nero’s government which is like the imperial beast. It’s the worst government they could imagine in so many ways. And yet Paul is warning his people to not become like them.

Because first of all, that’s not Christ’s way, and secondly, you’ll just get killed. So, the way to be Christ person is to overcome that evil with good, with a kind of non-violent resistance that proclaims Jesus is Lord and Caesar’s not. The weapons of our warfare are not the weapons of this world.

It’s a gospel of peace and acts of enemy love. And that’s how God’s going to defeat this world. So that’s one angle.

Another angle is a little bit what George McDonald does with this, which I think is very challenging because his approach—and maybe I could read a little bit of what he says, and I wish I had the sermon. I took this out of his devotional. But he says:

No prayer for any revenge that would gratify the selfishness of our nature, a thing to be burned out of us by the fire of God, needs think to be heard. Be sure, when the Lord prayed his Father to forgive those who crucified him, he uttered his own wish and his Father’s will at once: God will never punish according to the abstract abomination of sin, as if men knew what they were doing. “Vengeance is mine,” he says: with a right understanding of it, we might as well pray for God’s vengeance as for his forgiveness, for that vengeance is to destroy the sin—to make the sinner abjure and hate it; nor is there any satisfaction in a vengeance that seeks or effects less. If nothing else will do, then hell-fire; if less will do, whatever brings repentance. Friends, if any prayers are offered against us because of some wrong you or I have done, God grant us his vengeance! Let us not think that we shall get off! And part of what McDonald’s getting at is God is committed to purifying all that is not of love’s kind out of us. And. That’s a good thing. Yes. So sometimes I know I was brought up with the idea that once you believe in Jesus, you’re forgiven. [from Consuming Fire, the devotional version of George MacDonald’s Unspoken Sermons]

And part of what McDonald’s getting at is God is committed to purifying all that is not of love’s kind out of us. And that’s a good thing. So sometimes I know I was brought up with the idea that, well, you know, once you believe in Jesus, you’re forgiven. And then you don’t have to face your sin because Jesus did it for you. And that’s, on one level, sure, we’re forgiven, but on another level, God’s committed to healing all in us that would need forgiveness. And that’s a good thing.

[00:14:28] Anthony: Thanks be to God that the old Anthony Mullins will not inherit the kingdom. And may it be so, Lord.

Verse 15, Geordie, indicates that, at least in my mind, we should place-share, enter into the place of another, through kinship and mutuality, by rejoicing with those who rejoice and mourning with those who mourn.

You are someone who vocationally offers soul care, Spiritual formation to others. So, I imagine you would have much to say about this topic. Using the passage and thinking Christologically, what guidance would you give people who yearn for deeper connection? And frankly we all do, whether we know it or not, we want deeper connection. What does that look like? What would you say?

[00:15:19] Geordie: This is such an important verse. I think it offers us a kind of litmus test for our love. Is our love real or not? Is it sincere or not? Are we really just out for ourselves or not? If I’m really for others, over myself, then I’m going to celebrate their blessings and achievements rather than harboring some kind of competitive jealousy or envy, which is so easy to fall into.

And then it’s turned back on myself and I’m thinking about, oh gosh, I wish I had that, instead of just being able to celebrate with them. And then when those that have persecuted me or have been unkind to me, when they’re mourning or suffering, love mourns with and for them. And that’s a real test of love. I’ve had to wrestle with that myself many times. And it’s a reminder of the kind of love that God calls us to.

One of the things I do, in addition to my full-time work with Imago Christi, I also work part-time at a hospital as a chaplain. And as I said before the show, I had a shift last night. I just got off a couple hours ago and as I begin every shift, I know that I’m going to be with people who are mourning. And occasionally, I get to be with people who are rejoicing at some news. But nine out of 10 visits I make are mostly about dealing with mourning, with grief and loss, the mourning of unexpected trauma or diagnosis or impending death.

And people will sometimes say to me, I don’t know how you do it? And it’s hard, but my approach is pretty simple. And I should maybe just say first, initially my first feelings were performance anxiety. Gosh, I hope I know the right thing to say and feeling awkward. But I’ve learned over time to take a different approach.

So, when I’m on my way to visit a patient, I just pray a simple prayer. “Jesus, help me to love what I find there. Help me to love as you love this person, this family, this situation.” And that prayer, that focus on love has an amazing power to lower my anxiety level and also to enable me to be attentive to what they’re actually grieving or mourning. And not bring all my own assumptions into it. So, I don’t know if that answers your original question.

[00:18:32] Anthony: It does. It does. And God bless you and your work, and I appreciate what you said about how the prayer that you pray to Lord Jesus helps you to not center yourself in the process, in the relationship, in the time that you’re with somebody who’s grieving.

He empowers you by the Spirit to be with the other. And ultimately, I think Andrew Root was the one I read that talked about place-sharing. It’s just entering it into the grief. And ultimately, isn’t that what compassion is? It’s with somebody’s pain. It’s with their suffering. God be with you as you go. And thank you for staying awake for us. We appreciate that.

[00:19:19] Geordie: I’ve got coffee.

[00:19:20] Anthony: Yeah. Good. Let’s transition to the second pericope of the month. It’s Romans 13:8-14. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 18 in Ordinary Time on September 10.

Geordie, would you read it for us please?

[00:19:37] Geordie: Glad to.

8 Don’t be in debt to anyone, except for the obligation to love each other. Whoever loves another person has fulfilled the Law. The commandments, Don’t commit adultery, don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t desire what others have, and any other commandments, are all summed up in one word: You must love your neighbor as yourself. 10 Love doesn’t do anything wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is what fulfills the Law. 11 As you do all this, you know what time it is. The hour has already come for you to wake up from your sleep. Now our salvation is nearer than when we first had faith. 12 The night is almost over, and the day is near. So let’s get rid of the actions that belong to the darkness and put on the weapons of light. 13 Let’s behave appropriately as people who live in the day, not in partying and getting drunk, not in sleeping around and obscene behavior, not in fighting and obsession. 14 Instead, dress yourself with the Lord Jesus Christ, and don’t plan to indulge your selfish desires.

[00:20:51] Anthony: So, Paul writes of the obligation to love each other. And I’ve, from time to time, heard gospel teachers talk about the obligations of love. The word obligation can feel a bit prickly or denotes something that’s only done out of duty. So, can you help us understand the covenant commitment and obligation to love?

[00:21:16] Geordie: Sure. Yeah. God gave his promises to Abraham and then only 430 years later came the law at Sinai. And the law didn’t come to annul the promise or to impose conditions on grace, but to spell out the obligations of grace, to be the school master that leads us to Christ.

And so, Paul is arguing that in authentic Judaism, grace is prior to the law. So, the obligations of love are—well, maybe before I jump into that, Judaism is not synonymous with legalism. Sometimes we think, oh, the Jews were all about legalism and you had to earn grace, but that’s actually not how they thought about it. Sometimes, certainly.

But the basic theme was that there’s this covenant of God with his people. It’s not a contract. And so, kind of like marriage, love always brings its obligations. This is James Torrance: it has unconditional obligations, but the obligations of love are not conditions of love.

One way I think about it, last week I was away teaching at the School of Theology out here. And I said to the students I’ve been married 33 years. And for me to know that my wife loves me, I need to trust her love. And to trust it, I need to feel safe in it. And to trust it and feel safe, I need to know that she is committed to me when I’m apart from her, and she needs to know that I’m committed to her when I’m apart from her. And that’s an obligation of love, but it’s not a condition.

Human love, of course, has its limits, but God’s love doesn’t. And the invitation for us is to live with God’s kind of love where we are committed to the person regardless of their response. So, it’s not about duty.

Let me just add a thought from James Torrance. This comes from an article he wrote called “The Unconditional Freeness of Grace,” and he’s talking about this question: is grace prior to the law or is the law prior to grace? And he is using the analogy of marriage and he says, “To put it in other words, love, like marriage love, always brings its obligations—its unconditional obligations—but the obligations of love are not conditions of love. To turn a covenant into a contract is to turn categorical imperatives into hypothetical imperatives … and [that] weaken the imperatives. Legalism always weakens the character of love.”

And so, Paul—this is more of JB [James Torrance], he says, “‘Do I weaken the law’ says the Apostles—by seeing it in the context of grace? ‘No, I strengthen it!’ This question of the relation of law to grace is of paramount importance, because much evangelical preaching can go wrong at this point. It is possible to do two things which can lead to a misunderstanding of Paul. The first is to take the text, ‘the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ’ out of its context …”

And to build the whole theology and a preaching technique out of it. [Guest paraphrase] As if we need to preach the law so that people will eventually repent rather than preaching grace.

[00:25:31] Anthony: So, Geordie, what is your favorite Jesus outfit? I recall the last time we had a conversation you mentioned your son really likes the way you dress, and it just popped back into my mind as I was thinking about your Christ-like clothing.

So, is there a Christ-like garment we Christians need to be wearing, but too often it can be found hanging in the closet, gathering dust of apathy?

[00:25:57] Geordie: That’s such a good question. I’m amazed that you remembered that. Yeah, I love that image of my son dressing up in my clothes.

I think my favorite—and this is probably come to me over the last year and a half or so maybe two years really since becoming a part of Imago Christi. And there’s a broader story to that. But my favorite thing in the closet or maybe the clothing that I think is often gathering dust in the closet for many Christians is the outfit of joy.

Because the more I read the Gospels, the more I am struck by the constant sense of joy that seems to characterize Jesus’ relationship with the Father.

And that’s actually what I think about when I hear that phrase, “weapons of light.” When I see the word light or glory in the New Testament, I immediately think of what happens to someone’s face when they’re filled with joy. You know when I get home, came home this morning off my shift and I saw my wife was sitting having her devotions, and I look in her face. And I just see her face light up and her eyes shine that joy toward me.

And so, I think the “weapons of light,” the central one is the joy of the relationship of the Father and the Son. And as we participate in that, as we sit with them inside the circle of the Trinity, as we look upon the Father looking back at us with love, then we share that glory. We share the joy that they have, and our faces begin to light up.

But so often that’s not the clothing that we wear.

[00:28:24] Anthony: That’s a good word. And that’s something that is fostered by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It’s a fruit that is born and nourished and flourishes within us in the presence of Jesus. That’s a really good word. Thank you for that.

Let’s transition onto our next passage of the month. It’s Romans 14:1-12. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 19 in Ordinary Time, which is September the 17.

1 Welcome the person who is weak in faith—but not in order to argue about differences of opinion. One person believes in eating everything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Those who eat must not look down on the ones who don’t, and the ones who don’t eat must not judge the ones who do, because God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servants? They stand or fall before their own Lord (and they will stand, because the Lord has the power to make them stand). One person considers some days to be more sacred than others, while another person considers all days to be the same. Each person must have their own convictions. Someone who thinks that a day is sacred, thinks that way for the Lord. Those who eat, eat for the Lord, because they thank God. And those who don’t eat, don’t eat for the Lord, and they thank the Lord too. We don’t live for ourselves and we don’t die for ourselves. If we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we belong to God. This is why Christ died and lived: so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you look down on your brother or sister? We all will stand in front of the judgment seat of God. 11 Because it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God.  12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

Geordie, I’m a recovering legalist. Not arrived at the train station yet, but I’m working on it by the Spirit.

For the first half of my life, I took very seriously what meats I ate and didn’t eat, and what days I observed and didn’t observe, based on my religious convictions. And because of my zeal for these things, I admit, I quickly and harshly judged others who didn’t honor God in the same way I did. Oh, how I had to repent.

And it’s ongoing repentance. In light of that, this passage seems to point to the liberty we have in Christ and how we should accept others, but I wonder if it goes deeper. We live for the Lord and belong to God, verse 8, and therefore we don’t live for ourselves, verse 7. How would you exegete this section of Scripture?

[00:31:32] Geordie: I think it’s interesting that in the Greek text, the word “for” is not present. There’s actually no preposition at all, and most of the nouns are dative. And my point about mentioning that is I think Paul is pointing us toward the union with Christ, which is our life in all of this. We can’t think of ourselves apart from him.

So, I am a “we.” “Myself” is a self in relationship with Christ. There’s no me alone. So, I can’t live for myself alone because that doesn’t even make sense. And so, I live in the Lord, and I die in the Lord because I belong to the Lord. So, I think that’s at least part of one way to unpack this is to recognize our union with Christ that he’s pointing towards.

Because Paul never wants to tell us, okay, God did all this for you, and you should do all this for him. It’s like quid pro quo. Be grateful, but the Christian life is not a response to Christ. It’s a response in Christ, in his response already for us that we participate in.

And living from that perspective then, that changes who holds the gavel really. We all kind of, I think, want to hold the gavel against ourselves, against others. I was talking to someone the other day, and they were describing this sense of judgment of others against them. And it was almost like an entire stadium filled with judges and trying to please everybody. And so that that’s our default, I think, is to hold that gavel against ourselves and against others.

I’d love to hear some of your thoughts on this since you grew up with such a strong legalism. How have you come to hear this text differently since being liberated from your legalistic judgmentalism?

[00:34:07] Anthony: I think the way I view it now is wrapped up in what you just said, in that all of my doing as a beloved child of God is within the done—what Christ has already done. And now it is a happy participation, as opposed to me showing up at the end of the day and saying, hey, God, look what I did for you. And God [says,] okay, I didn’t ask you to this; I just want you to join me in relationship and watch what I’m doing.

Much like even the historical Jesus as a rabbi—as a friend, a disciple, I just do what I see my rabbi doing. And we get to do it together, and there’s such joy in that. So that shifting from for Christ to with Christ, that simple shift is cataclysmic as it relates, and I look back to my upbringing versus where I’m at today.

[00:35:08] Geordie: Praise God. Yeah, we have to hear that. I think every sermon, every podcast, every book—that’s really my litmus test.

Does this message throw me back on myself or does it invite me, draw me into participating in Christ and with Christ? And if it doesn’t draw me into the life that Christ is living in and for me already, then it’s not the gospel that Jesus is wanting, inviting us into in Matthew 11. He invites us to come to him and share his yoke.

He hasn’t dumped something on us that he doesn’t wear himself.

[00:36:04] Anthony: Yeah. I appreciated what you said, Geordie, about our identity, the “we” aspect, the communitas, the community. I was talking with some folks earlier today about the Zulu philosophy (the South African language of Zulu) the philosophy of ubuntu: “I am because we are.”

And it’s a powerful way of looking at things because we’re just so individualistic in the west. And I think we would find a richer experience with God if we thought in terms of community, because there is triunity in the Godhead, right? Father, Son and Spirit. And hallelujah, praise God that we’ve been included in that Father-Son relationship by the Spirit.

[00:36:52] Geordie: And that’s a that’s a good thing to call out as we’re going through this as many, if not most, of the references to “us” in this are plural. So, it doesn’t always come out in the translation when it says yourself. But it pretty much is always “yourselves,” talking about this mixture of, I’m responsible, but I do this in community with others. It’s not just me alone. So, it’s me with Christ, and it’s me with Christ.

[00:37:31] Anthony: Lord, forgive us for the idol of self.

[00:37:35] Geordie: Yes.

[00:37:37] Anthony: It says each of us will give an account to God in verse 12. Okay. So, Geordie, is that a threat, a warning, something we should be fearful of? How do you imagine giving an account to God? And if anything, how should it inform the way that we live today?

[00:37:56] Geordie: Yeah. I think it all depends on what I think of the character of God. So, if God is a harsh master, then yeah, I should be afraid. But if God is love, if God is triune love, Father, Son, and Spirit, then while my accounting for everything that I’ll have done, is no doubt going to be painful in some way. It’ll be the kind of pain that I might feel when I go to the dentist.

My dentist only has my good in mind, and yeah, there’s a part of me that fears giving an account to her, but I know that she’s going to bring healing to my cavities and whatever else she finds because she’s for me. She’s not against me. No matter how bad my flossing habits might be or have been, no matter how bad my sweet tooth has gotten, I know that she’s on my team. She’s on my side.

And I think this has been one of the transformations for me in terms of seeing God’s judgment, which has largely come, I think, through reading George McDonald. This recognizing that the judgment seat of God is something that all of us are going to have to stand in front of. It’s not just for non-believers to get judged.

All of us will be judged, as he says every knee will bow and every tongue will praise him. And each of us will give an account, but it’s not for the sake of punishment. It’s for the sake of healing and purifying. It’s like going to the dentist or going to the doctor and saying, look here’s some things that I recognize are not what they should be.

Thankfully doctors have tests they can run and help even discover other things that we couldn’t name or couldn’t put our finger on. And I think God does that as well. And that’s all for this, for our healing.

And so, I think it also gives us a big degree of just being able to trust God with other people that we might be apt to judge. We can trust that they are going to face God someday about that. And so, I don’t need to run around and be everybody’s voice of judgment because that is going to come for them to the extent that he’s calling me to do that with a particular person.

I need to listen for that. And that always is going to be an expression of love because that’s how God’s judgment is from him as well. It becomes both something I think for us not to fear and also a model for us of the way that we would approach judging ourselves or judging others as well. It comes from a heart and a place of love.

[00:41:41] Anthony: Thank you for that. We always go back to the character of God revealed in Jesus Christ. And as we’ve already said on this episode, God has a restorative love, not a retributive punishment. Sin does enough of its own punishment to us, right? And thanks be to God that we can trust him.

So, we move on to our final passage of the month. It is Philippians 1:21-30 Philippians, of course, is known as the Epistle of Joy. You mentioned joy earlier. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 20 in Ordinary Time, which falls on September 24.

Geordie, read it for us please.

[00:42:09] Geordie: Sure.

22Because for me, living serves Christ and dying is even better. 22 If I continue to live in this world, I get results from my work. 23 But I don’t know what I prefer. I’m torn between the two because I want to leave this life and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 However, it’s more important for me to stay in this world for your sake. 25 I’m sure of this: I will stay alive and remain with all of you to help your progress and the joy of your faith, 26 and to increase your pride in Christ Jesus through my presence when I visit you again. 27 Most important, live together in a manner worthy of Christ’s gospel. Do this, whether I come and see you or I’m absent and hear about you. Do this so that you stand firm, united in one spirit and mind as you struggle together to remain faithful to the gospel. 28 That way, you won’t be afraid of anything your enemies do. Your faithfulness and courage are a sign of their coming destruction and your salvation, which is from God. 29 God has generously granted you the privilege, not only of believing in Christ but also of suffering for Christ’s sake. 30 You are having the same struggle that you saw me face and now hear that I’m still facing.

[00:43:30] Anthony: So, Paul challenges us to live together in a manner worthy of Christ’s gospel, verse 27. And I see this as a challenge because many Christians have an individualistic moralism. It goes to something like this.

Be a good person. Stay in your lane. Have a nice house and an enclave, right? That’s the goal. And by the way, we know none of those things are inherently wrong, but I wonder if the apostle is pointing to Christian community that is far more robust and other-centered than we often think about. What’s say you?

[00:44:04] Geordie: Yes. Yeah, it’s interesting that phrase about worthy of the gospel. It’s basically the same kind of language that he used in Ephesians where he where the transition takes place in Ephesians from the first three chapters to the last three.

And it’s this word axios or—I can’t quite say it—axios. And we translate it “worthily, but it’s this image of an axis with kind of weight on one side and weight on the other. And the idea is that everything in the gospel, everything of who Christ is and what he’s done, this kingdom that he has created and that we are invited into—all of that is to be lived out, is to be worked out.

And that’s the challenge. That’s the journey of the Christian life is that everything gets to be lived. I remember asking Eugene Peterson this question in class once about experience. Because Eugene grew up kind of Pentecostal and then he became Presbyterian, which seems like two extremes from the Holy Rollers to the frozen chosen. But I remember I asked him, so how do we, or are we to experience every part of the Bible or every part of our theology? Or is there some of it that’s just in our head? And he said everything is to be experienced.

And sometimes, yes, thinking is a kind of experience. But it’s not meant to be abstract. It’s meant to be integrated. And Paul wants them to live the way that he has lived and he’s showing them his priority of the gospel over everything else and inviting them to follow his example. So, his example is other-centered love, which he got from Christ himself, which then leads to where he heads when he starts talking about suffering.

[00:47:07] Anthony: Speaking of that, God has generously granted you the privilege of suffering for Christ’s sake. Come on, Geordie. If the average person made a list of privileges in their life, you’re not going to find suffering on that list.

But how have you experienced in your own personal journey that suffering can be viewed as grace? And what encouragement would you give to someone listening who is suffering at this very hour?

[00:47:38] Geordie: This is this is such a huge topic, but I think there are some angles on it that can really help us and redeem this for us.

One interesting thing is there’s an early Christian text called the Epistle of Barnabas and in that he describes the human being as earth that suffers. And there’s something just basically true about that. And part of suffering means that there is a neediness that we have when we suffer.

There’s a dependency. Suffering creates a dependency for God, a dependency for God’s people, a need for others to come alongside us, a need for mercy and grace. Suffering, in a way, becomes almost an open space where grace can rush in. And if we don’t have any kind of suffering in our lives, I think, we don’t grow. Growth and suffering really are hand in hand realities.

Spring only comes because winter happened. (I guess, unless you live in Florida. And then I don’t know what to say about that.) But there’s something about our human nature where there’s a kind of suffering that is part of our design, a part of our neediness.

Now he’s talking about suffering for Christ’s sake. And that’s the life that Paul has lived; it’s had lots of suffering. It’s had suffering of rejection, suffering of abuse from others. There’re traumas that he’s experienced because of that.

Some of those because of his faith, some of those because of just life, I’m sure. And I think when we remember first that in all of those, grace can rush in, in those, that can be the thing that calls us to just—makes us aware of our neediness more.

When I went through a really difficult time about four years back and I was talking to Baxter Krueger about it. And his response to me was funny because he [says,] “Geordie, this is probably the best thing that ever happened to you because now your theology has to actually make a difference. If it doesn’t, then you need a new theology.” (I can’t do a southern accent. Sorry about that.)

But the reality is God is self-giving. This is Brad Jersak’s description, which I love, self-giving, co-suffering, radically forgiving love. And there’s a sense in which to be love means you will suffer. There is no love that does not also include suffering. And sometimes people just decide, okay, I’m not going to love.

I was talking to somebody whose dog was going to be dying probably soon, and they just said I don’t think we want another dog because the pain of losing them is too much. And I get that. Sometimes we have to make those choices, but any kind of love is always going to involve suffering because there’s going to be loss and there’s going to be hurt. But what it also means is suffering is not necessarily bad. It’s not automatically bad. Suffering can actually be a way that love gets deepened, where intimacy grows to a place that it never could have otherwise.

And so, I think Paul is not just saying stupid things when he says God has generously granted you the privilege of suffering for Christ’s sake. That is genuine for him. Now, all the hearers may have had to struggle with that a little bit, but for Paul, I think, it’s his suffering that made the love and intimacy that he knows in Christ so much deeper.

And he knows that, and he wants that for his people.

[00:52:55] Anthony: Yeah. It reminds me just thinking of my own journey, Geordie, that in my walk with Christ, I have grown and matured in him mostly when I’m going through the valley of the shadow of death. It’s in times of suffering and heartache; it’s not in the fluff of life.

And I would rather hang out in the fluff of life. But I can look back and go, thank you, Lord. Thank you. I learned something of your goodness. And I trust you more today than I did then as a result of it. Hallelujah. Praise God.

[00:53:38] Geordie: I just say that so much of the work of a spiritual director is helping somebody to just press into the suffering in prayer and to learn how to receive God’s grace and mercy in the midst of it, whatever it is.

Because often our initial response to suffering is not happy or pretty. And so sometimes we do need somebody to help us to know how to turn and face God in the midst of it. Instead of turning away or spiraling in. And so that’s part of the work that I love doing with Imago Christi, with leaders.

And I love that I have some people that do that for me, which I need.

[00:55:41] Anthony: Amen and amen. And I appreciate the work of spiritual direction and formation because it gives a holistic picture of things. Like one of the things I’ve noticed recently, and maybe I’ve just started paying attention, sometimes in Christian circles, there’s this toxic positivity that God loves me, so everything’s got to be happy, happy, joy, joy, rainbows, and ponies.

But the Bible has a book called Lamentations. And I read the book of Psalms and it’s like a yo-yo. Go God, one Psalm, the next Psalm, where are you, God, and when are you going to rescue me? And so, I just want to remind folks, especially if you find yourself in the midst of suffering now, that lament gives voice to what hurts, but hope gives voice to what heals. And the hope of God never disappoints us, never abandons us, never leaves us at the altar. Hallelujah. Praise God.

Thank you so much Geordie, for being with us staying up after a long shift of chaplaincy work. We so appreciate you. You’re a beloved child of the living God.

And I want to thank the people that make this happen, Reuel Enerio, our producer, my wife, Elizabeth Mullins, who transcribes these podcasts. So you can find verbatim what Geordie said, because I know you want to go back and re-listen to what he had to offer here today.

But thank you so much for being with us and let me remind everyone that Jesus Christ is the inerrant and infallible word of God. Keep leaning into him and watch what will happen.

Geordie, as is our tradition with Gospel Reverb, we pray to close out the conversation and we’d love for you to pray for and with us.

[00:56:26] Geordie: I would love to. Yes.

Lord, we give you thanks and praise, for you are love. You are other-centered co-suffering, radically forgiving mercy and love and grace.

And Lord we know we don’t have the strength in us to be that or do that. And that’s part of the good news is that you are all those things. And so, we thank you, God, that you don’t tell us to do something that you aren’t. But that all that you call us to be clothed in is just the clothes that you already wear.

And Father, Jesus, would you share with us your clothing share with us, your relationship with the Father through the Spirit. Help us to see what you see when you look into the Father’s eyes, and to know what you know, and to feel what you feel, and to love what you love, so that we can be your people living as children in the Father’s Kingdom in this world.

In Jesus name we pray. Amen.


Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!

Rhythms of Leadership Development w/ Mako Nagasawa

Video unavailable (video not checked).

In this episode, our host Cara Garrity interviews Mako Nagasawa, founder and Executive Director of the Anastasis Center. Together, Cara and Mako discuss rhythms of leadership development.

“God is always at work. And we are never the initiators of God’s work in other people’s lives. We get the privilege of coming alongside the work of Jesus by his Spirit in other people, regardless of where they are in relation to him, because God is always doing things to draw people towards Jesus and towards more and more Christlikeness. We need to cultivate good listening skills. We need to have spiritual ears and eyes to discern what God is doing in other people. And I think that makes leadership development a lot of fun! That makes evangelism a lot of fun because it’s not just a two-way conversation that we’re having with another person. It’s really a three-way conversation. And we’re asking questions, God, what are you doing here?” —Mako Nagasawa

Main Points:

  • How does leadership development contribute to healthy church rhythms? 5:05
  • What are some things you take into consideration when developing leaders? 14:48
  • How has your work with college students informed how you approach development? 29:58
  • How has your work with long-time church leaders informed how you approach development? 44:02
  • How do you approach developing new members, new believers, and not-yet believers? 1:02:32
  • What words of encouragement would you leave with our listeners when it comes to the development of people and leaders in the local church? 1:11:42

Resources: 

  • The Anastasis Center – resources developed by Mako and his team that teach and train individuals and communities to embody God’s restorative justice and Jesus’ healing atonement.
  • Process of Development – an infographic that shares the ethos for development and development resources available in GCI.
  • 4 Es – GCI’s intentional process of leadership development.
  • Emotionally Healthy Discipleship – a ministry dedicated to transforming church culture through the multiplication of deeply changed leaders and disciples.

 

Follow us on SpotifyGoogle Podcast, and Apple Podcasts.

 

Program Transcript


Rhythms of Leadership Development w/ Mako Nagasawa

Welcome to the GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.


Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This episode is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am blessed to interview Mako Nagasawa. Mako is an elder team member at Neighborhood Church of Dorchester in Massachusetts and director of The Anastasis Center for Christian Education and Ministry. He’s been married to Ming for 24 years and together they have adult children, John and Zoe and teenage foster daughter, Madison.

Now Mako is enthusiastic about theology and cultural context, so he has YouTube videos now on the Lord of the Rings, the Theology of Lord of the Rings and the Theology of Black Panther. So, check those out and go on ahead and check out www.anastasiscenter.org to explore more of the resources of the Center for Christian Education and Ministry.

Mako, thank you so much for joining the pod today. It’s great to have you.

[00:01:22] Mako: Cara, thanks for having me on. It’s great to be with you here.

[00:01:27] Cara: Yes. And the focus of our time together is going to be on rhythms of leadership and people development. So, before we get started, I’d love to know what first drew you into the teaching and training, Christian education, kind of niche of ministry.

[00:01:43] Mako: Sure. I grew up in not a Christian home. My parents are first- and second-generation Japanese Americans. I grew up in California, but I did come to Jesus as a result of three good friends in high school caring about me, loving on me. And so that I did commit my life to Christ my junior year of high school.

I grew the most though in college. And maybe because I’m an inquisitive person, a pretty curious person also, I wanted to get involved in education. I was at one point thinking I’d be a teacher and then a principal, and then a policymaker in the US educational system.

I was very interested in why have Christians or how have Christians used power for better and for worse. Obviously, I think we’re more familiar with just stereotypes and maybe some specifics about how Christians have abused power in the past, and that’s certainly true.

So, I wanted to ask a lot more questions about, so when have we done things well or relatively well? And also, what were the conditions that allowed for that? What was the kind of teaching that was present? What was the spiritual formation and leadership development rhythms that happened there?

And I think that’s how that started. I would say a lot of other things converged. I was a competitive swimmer. And so, when you’re in sports, I think you—and I also loved coaching other people in swimming, in water polo—and so any time you take a developmental approach to one thing, you start to develop a developmental approach to another.

And I think it was really fun for me to transfer that over to the life of faith, the life of following Jesus. How did Jesus develop people? Can we discern that? And then in 2000 to 2014, I worked for Intervarsity Christian Fellowship doing college ministry. And Cara, I think we should be fully honest and disclose that we knew each other before from that time. And after I started the Anastasis Center and mentoring other college students, that you worked for me.

[00:04:30] Cara: Yes, I sure did.

[00:04:31] Mako: So, you know a little bit about that and how I approached things. But it was real fun to work with you and obviously in the context of developing college students. It was great to partner with you and share that context because there’s a lot of development that goes on there.

So, I would say those are my primary experiences and influences that I could identify that I bring to the conversation here.

[00:05:05] Cara: Yes. Thank you for sharing, and I’m excited to see what we can learn from those experiences that you bring to the table. So, the first question that I do have for you is, how does leadership development contribute to the rhythms of a healthy local church?

[00:05:27] Mako: I think that to start off with, we really need to think about leadership development, broadly defined, as how do we invite other people into leadership roles of any sort? And how do we help? How do we call people into partnership and deeper partnership over time?

Because if we don’t, then I think you and I will start to run everything and operate as if we will live forever or as if we will be here forever in one place. And heaven forbid if something unexpected happens, then what will the community do?

So, I think it’s incumbent on us to be doing leadership development all the time and to be thinking about how do we integrate that into healthy church rhythms? Just the rhythm of Sabbath rest is important. We need to be thinking about our own rest and not burning out ourselves.

And that means in most cases we’ll need to ask for help. And that requires a basic level of self-awareness and community awareness of this is what needs to be done. This is the minimum. And what can I ask other people to do and help me with? And things like that.

I think the other thing, the way that leadership development contributes to healthy church rhythms is that we think about people’s development in some kind of cycle, and it’s easiest to think about it in terms of a calendar year. We ask someone to sign up to help out with kids church. For instance, at my church, for the worship team or set up or something like that, we ask for a yearlong commitment. And then we say we would like you to then be free to not do that and may hopefully to do something else. But I think that’s healthy because I think people might be afraid of saying yes to a volunteer commitment if they don’t know when it would end.

You know what I mean? How long do you want me to do this? I think that obviously it could be shorter than a year, but I think that’s really a good starting point. And then in the interim, we’re asking people what are you learning as you do this? Especially, what are you learning about yourself and others?

When I was young in ministry, I really appreciated the opportunity to preach, for instance, or to help lead worship, to be on the worship team. And periodically, especially with regards to preaching, my mentors would ask me before and afterwards, how did that feel? How did preparing go? They laid out templates for me to use. And then afterwards they asked so how did you feel like you experienced God in the preparation? In the delivery? As you thought about people, prayed for them, what was that like? And there were really good rhythms of preparation and then debriefing that happened.

And the same is true—maybe less often—but the same is true in terms of being on the worship team. Because it was more about, how do I sense the Spirit moving at any given point in time?

How much of it is preparation and forethought? How much of it is spontaneous in the moment? And questions like that. And how do I grow as a worship leader, whether that be exposure to songs or especially exposure to new streams or traditions of worship music that I had not been exposed to before.

Those things are really helpful.

[00:10:09] Cara: Absolutely. And two things really stick out to me from what you said. The first is we can’t do it alone. We really do need to be bringing more people into ways of participating in leadership and participating in ministry.

And then second, as we do that it’s not just about getting tasks done so that things keep happening, the mechanics of the church as church ministry keeps going, but who are we becoming in that process? What are we learning about? How are we growing? And I think that’s excellent.

[00:10:46] Mako: That’s right. And I think especially now that we’ve lived through the Covid pandemic era and maybe we’re never totally free of it, but perhaps it’s endemic. I think we have to be mindful [that] people get sick. They may not be able to come in person or something like that. And so, what do we do?

The other thing I would say is when I started to feel responsible for the life of a group or feel responsible for the experiences of other people, something else kicked in or something about my natural personality could be shown or came up.

Also, things about my family and whether my family of origin and whether we handled expectations well, whether we handled communication and conflict well. All of that starts coming up. And so, I think that’s a really important thing then to keep bringing to Jesus, and also to help other people to recognize about themselves.

Because when we ask people to do things, then they’ll start to see other people through a new lens, right? And even, for example, people on the setup team at my church, they’ll start to see other people who are not on the setup team.

Do they come on time? Why or why not? Are they responsible? Can we ask them to help? And that can be a good experience. We can handle those questions well, but we can also handle those questions poorly. And judgmentally, right?

And then you start to see, okay some people are self-critical, some people are other-critical; some people have high expectations, other people have low expectations. And that all needs talking through. And we always need Jesus to inform us about generally how do we approach this work and how do we build community? How do we help people see the importance of taking responsibility but not feel judgmental towards those who aren’t at the time?

All these things come up and it is a wonderful and mysterious and sometimes confusing process, and sometimes messy, but it’s so important because that is what leaders need to do.

[00:13:51] Cara: Yes. And that’s a really excellent point that I think is important for us not to miss.

I’m glad that you highlighted that because when we talk about leadership development, it’s more than just the skills or the knowledge that we need to have to do that task. And that’s where leadership development and discipleship really come hand in hand or they overlap and, in some sense, they’re one and the same.

How we see other people, those things about us, those things that need to be talked through and brought to Jesus, those are part of that journey of development. It’s not just, oh, I know where this thing goes to set up. And those are things that we need to consider.

That’s excellent. And that actually gets into my next question that I have for you. When you are thinking about the development of leaders, what are some of the things that you take into consideration?

[00:14:50] Mako: I think the first thing is the framework that I’m working in.

And I’ll try to boil this down in a simple sense. The framework that I work in is a little bit of a merger between Jesus in the Gospels and a little bit of what I can discern in Acts and the Epistles, of how did the apostles mentor other people. But it’s primarily drawn from the Gospels and a tool called—now you’re going to laugh, but it’s John Wooden’s Pyramid of Success.

And John Wooden was the winningest coach in NC2A [NCAA–National Collegiate Athletics Association] basketball history. He coached UCLA [University of California Los Angeles] for years. And I forget how many NC2A championships he won. But I think the greatest gift to the sport and his players was he drew a pyramid and he said there’s some foundational building blocks on the bottom, things related to character.

For instance, humility. And the first time I went to a basketball camp, and I thought, Humility? Why is that important and why is it so foundational? And the explanation was look, if you don’t have humility, then you’re probably not going to be a good defensive player, right?

You might have a lot of arrogance and therefore be motivated to develop your jump shot or have a great offensive game. But defensive games require more teamwork, communication, and humility to do things that aren’t necessarily the showiest things in basketball. You could see then how skills build on top of character qualities and that was part of his point.

So, I took this pyramid and said, okay, at the bottom the foundational level is really our faith in Jesus. What is our understanding of him? And what’s our experience of him built on top of that are our desires. What’s the state of our desires? Do we want more of him? Do we want to see more of the kingdom?

Unfortunately, we, on some level, always probably want to rebel or resist. What’s that like? How am I prone to do that? And on top of that is character, like proven character. How reliable am I? How honest am I? How good am I at conflict and communication? And handling that with integrity.

On top of that is skills. Like can I lead a Bible study, or can I have this type of conversation? Or whatever. And then on top of that, at the top—the pointy top—is really the Great Commission, right? And that’s the heaviest thing that sits on top.

And it leads us into the world, and it leads us into Jesus’ love for the world, respect for other people’s cultures and languages and so forth. And so, I look at, for example, the Gospel of Matthew. Jesus is developing his disciples. He calls them, he nurtures them. He looks at all these elements.

Like their faith, their understanding of him, an experience of him, their desires. What do you want? And their character, obviously, like the Sermon on the Mount is all about character, their skills. So, he takes them into gentile lands, and he helps them to explore their own, let’s say, biases or limits or things like that.

And then in the end, he gives them the Great Commission, right? And when he dies and rises again, he’s saying, look I have a new humanity for all humanity. And I’ve called you to, I’ve prepared you to walk in that. You’re never done growing, but this is a basic paradigm.

When I look at developing leaders, I look at all these things in people, and I try to give people opportunities to show these things to me. Of course, I’m looking at different people’s strengths and weaknesses or areas of development. I am looking at what have they experienced of Jesus before?

And how can I come along and supplement that? Because we’re always growing. And then many people haven’t really looked at the state of their desires. Maybe because they’re used to Christian faith being a series of ideas, right? I just need to know this kind of stuff, like these creeds. Or I just need to memorize some Bible verses and then I quote them, and I think things will be fine.

Actually no, there’s a lot more underneath us and in Jesus about how he shapes our desires. And then of course, character skills. And those are things that can be talked about a little more easily.

And then I look at what this particular church needs or what is the college fellowship? (For example, when I was doing that work.) What are some things, needs, and opportunities that come out that are just realities? Some natural rhythms I know would be graduation dates. I know that or I hope that every freshman I meet will one day graduate from the university that they’re at. And so, I only have a limited time.

Now churches have a different timetable. Some people would like to say they have a womb to tomb type of approach. I suppose that may still be true, but I meet fewer and fewer people who think that. I think it’s more the case that people do move around to take a new job or for whatever reason.

And so, I think it’s a little more helpful to think in terms of blocks of time or ages and stages.

[00:22:10] Cara: Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. And I find that really helpful. I did chuckle a little bit thinking about that tool coming from basketball, but that is important, right? When we skip those foundational steps, we do find ourselves in a little bit of trouble down the road.

And so, I even thinking about that as a visual, I think that’s something that can be really helpful for us who are coming alongside those who are developing and even thinking about our own personal development, right? Where have we started in our development? Where do we want to start?

Do we want to start way up at the skills, or do we really want to start at the foundation?

[00:22:55] Mako: And I’m not saying that’s just necessarily a chronological path to take with people in developing them, but it is a somewhat logical structure. So, for instance when I ask folks, who are the people in your life who don’t know Jesus? And what questions did they ask you about your faith and your life with Christ?

There’re some people [who] might say, I study the sciences, or I work in the sciences or in a technical field and I just don’t know how to answer questions about, let’s say evolution and creation. Or what does Genesis really say about these kinds of things? That would be a skills type of question. Meaning underneath that they have a real faith, and their life with Jesus is rich. They have the desire to share their life with Christ, with other people. They have a character that is has enough integrity where non-Christians would find them credible.

And it’s just a matter of skills, however. And so, I’m glad to work on that with people. But at the same time, there are other people who say maybe not quite as bluntly as this, I don’t have non-Christian friends and I don’t want any. That’s a different issue.

And that could be a character question. It could be a faith question. It goes deeper down. And so, when you ask people questions like this, hey who are the folks around you in your life that don’t know Jesus? And how do you engage with them? And where do you see him working in them drawing them to himself?

I think a whole lot of levels then become apparent. And that’s just one of the questions, but it is significant, and it is helpful. There’re just some people who say, that’s a good question. I do have folks who don’t know Jesus in my life, but come to think of it, I don’t know if I really know Jesus because I don’t know how to explain him or talk about his role in my life with other people.

And I say that not as a judgmental question, or not judgmentally. But it’s more okay, then you’ve just helped me know how to encourage you, how to develop you.

[00:25:53] Cara: Yeah. And maybe in even clarification that it’s not necessarily chronological because I suppose we’re always growing in all of those aspects, but it helps to identify where that on-ramp is for that particular question or in that particular moment in terms of development.

Yeah, that’s really helpful. And I talk a lot about in development, thinking about bringing the right kind of resources at the right time to the right person for the right thing at hand that God has for them, or just lining those things up.

But I think that’s what I see, that this kind of framework could be helpful for [it]. Because if it is an issue just of skill, then that’s that. But if it is something that’s deeper, addressing just the layer of skill is not really what’s going to be helpful. And so, to have some kind of a framework that can help us one with another to explore that I think is really powerful.

[00:27:06] Mako: I really like how you said that the right skill or the right approach for the right need for the right moment, for the right person. Because it is hard to take a one-size-fits-all approach. I think that is the challenge of Sundays, right?

Sunday services and whenever we gather but we have to recognize it. It’s not going to serve everyone in the same way. And we do rely on these rhythms like weekly meetings, but we have to also be aware, like we’re going to have to come alongside people in unique ways, in deeply personal ways.

At times, we may need other counselors or specialists to come alongside people and lend a hand. So, the question of I’ve heard it described as just-in-time or just-in-case type of training. There are some people who respond better to just-in-time training.

They’re already in the need and in the situation. And so, it’s, give me the answer. There are other people who are more like me, who are, I need it just in case. Give me the training because I would prefer to feel some competence before I get into the situation. Otherwise, it’s overwhelming. Even that kind of difference between people necessitates different approaches.

[00:28:58] Cara: Yes. That’s a good observation. And that in some way this development is relational and personalized. That’s good. That’s good. You did mention, Mako, that you’ve done work with Christian Fellowships on campus and with college students.

And so, I’m wondering how has your work, specifically with college students informed how you approach development or even what how you think about development?

[00:29:34] Mako: Yeah. I feel very privileged to have done 14 years of campus ministry at mostly residential schools. There were schools in the Boston area where I lived that, and where I’ve served that were not residential, but they were commuter.

But the reason I say residential schools is because it’s just so easy to see people’s lives when they live there, and you see their friendships. It’s easy for them to invite friends to things. When you live in an urban or suburban or rural community, it’s much harder just to get a deeper sense of who is this person in relation to their neighbors, for instance.

So, you know, that was really easy to do. And one of the ways that I did in campus ministry was I would set up public displays every now and then, and they were conversation starters on a topic like the Bible or evil in the world or technology or race or how much of an atheist are you?

And we would ask questions on these artistic displays and people would just come around. They would be passing by either in the cafeteria or in the common area. And it would be really easy just to say, hey, do you want to take our survey? And then start up conversations. And then when the students, the Christian students came by they would often bring their friends because they knew, or they had enough experience of me to know that, hey I’m going to handle their questions thoughtfully sensitively, not dismissively.

This is how I approach these types of topics. And so, they, they would become part of this conversation, or they would allow me to be part of the conversation that they were already having with their friends or maybe they weren’t yet having those conversations with their friends, but they wanted to.

That was part of it. And that’s how I thought about, okay, how do I engage with Jesus’ Great Commission and invite students into it and also observe them. So sometimes I would listen to them start these conversations and they, at different points would say, Mako, I didn’t have an answer to that question.

How do we know Jesus cares about the marginalized or how do we know about evolution and creation? Or how do we know about the problem of evil and suffering like these, what do we say? What are the best Christian answers to these things? And we would talk about that. So that was a lot of fun.

And I would say that also then fed into a general sense that I had about what scriptures were most important for college students to become really deeply familiar with. And again, because I only had them for usually four years, maybe less if they went abroad, maybe more, if they took some time and stretched that out.

But to make a long story short, I came to think that the most important scriptures for college students to know was the Gospel of Matthew, the book of Genesis, and 1 Corinthians and Ephesians. And if I could cover those books with students in a four-year time period—which we did—that some of the most important things about Christian life and faith, we would be talking about.

And just briefly why those. The Gospel of Matthew is because you get to see the Jewishness of Jesus, I think the most clearly. And so, Matthew is very explicit about weaving in the Old Testament background, the Jewish background of Jesus. So, he retells Israel’s story when he goes into the red the water and the wilderness for 40 days, right?

He’s retelling Israel’s story of going into the water and the wilderness for 40 years coming to a mountain. Jesus comes to a mountain; he talks about God’s commandments at this mountain. So, what’s Jesus doing? He’s setting the expectation that he will retell our stories when he comes into our lives, and he’s also handling the problem of human evil in human nature, that the problem of human evil is not abstract.

It’s not intellectual, it’s existential, experiential. It is in us. And so, we need a God who is 100% good, who’s going to take our humanity upon his own shoulders and purify that human nature and perfect it and give it back to us. So that way we have a really good connection between Jesus and his Jewish context.

We have an answer to the problem of evil, and we are also setting expectations for discipleship, which is: Jesus will come to retell your story. So, he’s very personal. He will do it with you. So there maybe, there will be things that in your life that he will want to redo with you in partnership because you messed up last time and we need to set that relationship straight, for instance.

And there are just lots of things like that and the timing of covering certain topics in Matthew matched the timing of important conversations that people needed to have. You cover the Sermon on the Mount next, soon afterwards, and you’re already covering really important issues about how do you handle anger?

When freshmen get onto campus, they need to figure out who they want to room with, like within a matter of months. And making a commitment like that to people is scary. So, it’s a really good time to talk about what is your relationship with anger, and give me some examples of reconciliation, of conflict resolution. That’s there in Matthew 5.

Just lots of good stuff and that’s just one book. Genesis covers what is God’s purpose from creation is to spread the garden. And also, God relates to people in surprising ways, because it’s before the Sinai Covenant. And in the Sinai Covenant, I think God accelerates dynamics of sin leads to death.

And that is serious. But I think people then develop this idea that God’s justice is a retributive justice because of that relationship. In reality, God’s justice is a restorative justice, and you can see that very clearly before God initiates the Sinai covenant with Israel because all throughout Genesis people screw up all the time.

And God doesn’t respond with the thunderbolts. When he protects the Israelites, like in the flood or in Sodom and Gomorrah or with Egypt. He’s protecting their future because if there’s no Israel, then there’s going to be no Jesus. And if there’s no Jesus, then there’s no redemption of human nature. So, we can’t have that.

So unfortunately, yes, God does have to protect Israel in order to protect his restorative purposes. But see that’s a different paradigm than most people understand. And certainly, when non-Christians ask us, what about the angry God of the Old Testament? Then we need to have answers.

And then 1 Corinthians and Ephesians are really important because they talk about union with Christ from different angles. So, 1 Corinthians talks about the body and the corporate body and our personal body and how to handle those things in light of Jesus’ resurrection body. And then Ephesians talks about being the body of Christ as in dwelt by him as a new temple.

And I think those things feed my sense of development of students. And when students started to see, oh, there’s actually real connections between all this material. And it was really fun and eye-opening for them.

[00:39:00] Cara: No, that is absolutely fantastic because the two things that I really want to highlight for our listeners is with those on campus, when you had those engaging surveys, one of the things that you were able to do in that time, or really the two things you were able to do out of that activity is to provide that space of hands-on mentoring with your students and either through, the I’m going to listen and then you can come back and ask me the questions that you weren’t sure about. Or to be alongside them and starting the conversations and engaging of the conversations. I mean that hands-on opportunity to be engaged in those spaces of ministry of the having conversations with their friends who aren’t Christian, of being engaged on campus in that way, is so good.

And in GCI we talk a lot about mentoring and especially the apprenticeship square and it sounds a lot, in some ways like that. I do, you watch is one of the stages and then you do, I watch. And to do that when you’re really hands on, in the midst of the spaces of real-life ministry, I think is an excellent way that we experienced development.

And I think the second thing out of that was so important that shouldn’t be lost by our listeners is that from that, you learned a lot about the context of the college students that better informed how you came alongside them in development. You really stepped into their context and their lives because you could have chosen anything as their campus staff member to come alongside them, whatever, Bible studies, whatever skillsets, whatever.

But you chose things that were actually relevant to what they were encountering day-to-day. The conversations that they were having, the questions they were being asked, the questions they were asking them themselves. And I think that is really important for effective development is understanding, coming into the context of the people that we’re coming alongside to develop.

And we talk a lot about in GCI place-sharing and incarnational ministry. And I think that’s just an excellent example of that because, how can we develop appropriately for the context God has placed us in for a particular season if we have no familiarity with what that particular context is?

That’s really good. I appreciate you sharing those examples, Mako.

[00:41:46] Mako: You were part of that story, so that was a lot of fun. And I think that it’s, in some ways, harder to do campus ministry, in some ways easier. It’s harder because you have so many more ideas.

So, people of every religious background are present on campus; the whole world is represented on a college campus. And not only that, but people are sometimes they’re free from their parents for the first time. So, they’re really enjoying that freedom. So yeah, there are things that are hard about that particular age group and context.

But on the other hand, it’s easier because—and I know we’ll get into this—but at the local church, you have to be concerned about a much wider span of age groups. You have to be concerned about the particular location that people are in their jobs, their neighborhoods.

It’s harder to bring people together, certainly. And you have to think about things like childcare. Or a handicap ramp, right? And things have to be present in order to make meeting possible even with college students. There’re those things that—there aren’t usually children at least on a residential college campus. And if you do need a wheelchair ramp, most colleges nowadays provide that for you. So that may not be true. And some of our buildings and things like that. So yeah. New challenges.

[00:44:02] Cara: Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is a good time then to segue into that with your experience both in your local church, but also the work that you do with the Anastasis Center. How has that work with people who are either new in church leadership or have maybe even been longtime church leaders, how has that kind of spoken into your approach to development?

[00:44:30] Mako: Great question. So fundamentally I still use the same development pyramid that I described. And I find it to be helpful. Now, we talk about having a developmental approach to people on our leadership, within our elder team of four other people. And so, we’re always looking for ways to help people develop and take on at least a challenge or some kind of responsibility.

Now, with regards to evangelism, I still think that’s really important. So, I try to make it a point to visit people at their offices, because I want to get to know not only what they do—because that’s useful too and that’s personal—but it’s also a place where they spend most of their time. I want to see or have some sense for who are the people that they’re working with.

Is this an organization that does really, really interesting work or how’s that going to challenge the people? And how easy is it to have personal conversations with folks? Maybe it’s not always. I’ve known plenty of people who have been Amazon delivery drivers and you just don’t have a lot of opportunities. A lot of folks in my church congregation are teachers. Oh, my goodness. And so, the Covid Pandemic has been so hard on them. They are frontline workers. Not only that, but many of them were young parents, so they had to manage kids at home and a classroom through Zoom.

So, knowing those things about them is really important and being able to pray for them. But similar things I learned, what might conversations about faith and Jesus be like in the workplace? And sometimes I understand it’s not always easy.

Sometimes it’s quite hard to do that. Sure. Nevertheless, people are people and you’re always going to tell personal stories, so we figure that out together. And at other times, when I have done things with the youth of my church, like I did the “Theology of Marvel’s Black Panther.” Or nowadays we invest a lot of our time in a park. And during part of the year, we actually meet in that park; it’s called Elmhurst Park on Sundays. And we do set up some of those public displays, and you know what one of them was called? Is God a liberator or an oppressor?

We set up outside and we just talked to people who passed by, and it was really good. And the youth especially started to see, I don’t need to be afraid of that question. There are answers. There are things that I’ll need to be mindful of as a Christian about Christian history, but yeah, it’s really important.

So, I continue to do that. And I think that then when we gather on Sundays, it gives the opportunity to highlight how has God worked in some of those connections. And one quick example of this would be actually, just this past year what happened is that there’s a young lady, 18 years old senior in high school and she helps out on the worship team.

She’s wonderful. Her name is Destiny. And she invited everyone in church to cheer her on at her basketball games because she’s huge into basketball. I actually went and brought my foster daughter who was 13 at the time. This was late last year in the wintertime. As a result of seeing Destiny play, my foster daughter wrote an email to her teachers and the coach saying, can you give me a second chance, please to be on the team? Because she had one too many behavioral incidents at school.

She’s in eighth grade, and I understood the policy. I am totally supportive of it. But she advocated for herself. And they let her on. Long story short, she did a great job on the team and even scored the winning basket of the last game of the season.

It was so great. But more importantly, she did not have any behavioral incidents at school. Because basketball season, right? Like she didn’t want to risk not playing. And this was really the second time that I saw her really push herself and work hard to the point of suffering for something that she loved.

And the previous school year it was track. She did run on the track team, and that was really great because as a young person with some trauma in her background, I understand that kids with trauma find it harder to eat food that they’re not familiar with or challenge themselves physically because there’s a deeper desire to have comfort in their body, do things that make them feel comfortable, which I totally understand.

However, at the same time, it’s really important to learn how to push yourself and to care about something that you’re really willing to work hard at and to suffer for. And I, again, played competitive sports, but I also have been into music and art and the life of faith as well.

And I think that every aspect of life has this hurdle, where you hit this level where you can’t rely on just being naturally good at something. You have to really work hard. And when you push through it, there’s a lot of tears and soreness and humility, but when you push through it on the other side, you feel a new sense of joy.

And you enjoy the feeling of growth. I wanted her to have that. And now she has a touchpoint to that. So, it was an incredible moment. And I just shared that on this past Sunday because there was another young man who is about 30 now who has invested in young people, youth, especially for years now.

And he invested directly in Destiny. There are other people who have invested in her family and her neighborhood. And so there was a whole web of connections, and it was just a magical moment where you could see sometimes the way God works. It comes through, like working hard at relationships and that is true and that’s important, but other times it’s as simple as, hey, you want to come to my basketball game?

And just being willing to share space with people and invite people into your life just a little bit. It’s huge. And the intergenerational nature of the church community then really comes into play, because you do have high schoolers serving as role models for middle schoolers or junior high folks and then elementary school kids you totally have that. And sometimes there’s a lot of intentionality that goes into those relationships. And at other times it is just a matter of being around and it’s wonderful. So that’s how I’ve approached development as well.

I could tell some more stories about using a book and a paradigm called Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, which is a book by Pete and Geri Scazzero. They live in New York, and they engaged very deeply with spiritual disciplines and spiritual formation and rhythms of spiritual practices that help people open up to one another and have a common life. But most importantly, open up to God and be reminded of Jesus’ presence.

So, we practice a slowed down spirituality where we’re regularly encouraging people to stop, breathe, feel what their body is feeling. So, every Sunday, before we enter into our worship songs, we take a moment of silence, and we say let your mind and your emotions catch up with where your body is because we want to be present here. We want to be present to one another and especially to the Lord. And we bring all these things with us. But we also need to be attentive and expectant to hear from him, to see him reflected in stories that people share about when they can or from the word.

And it’s really wonderful. Because we live in a black community and our pastor Valerie Copeland is a 60-year-old African-American woman who was president of her labor union, the SEIU, I think, we are also concerned about issues of race, justice, and citizenship, right?

So, there are ways that we really want people to know, hey this is what’s happening with gun violence in our community. This is what youth are dealing with. This is the level of trauma that’s out there at the same time. Let’s talk about police brutality. Let’s talk about housing and inequalities and barriers that this country has put in the way of black and brown people paying off debt and moving into asset building and home ownership.

So, lots of things like that. We talk about, why is it that there’s all these private universities? This is Boston, so Harvard, Northeastern, they are technically nonprofit companies, so they don’t have to pay property taxes, but there are hedge funds in the back of their operations.

And they’re buying up more and more of Boston. Their students and faculty and staff use all kinds of resources like the subway, the buses, the roads, but they don’t pay for it. So, it’s just a question of fair taxation. So, we bring this before our people all the time, and our church is more diverse than the neighborhood.

It’s about just a little over half our congregation is black—either Black American or Haitian, other Caribbean immigrant, Cape Veridian and then the other part of our church, White, Asian, Latino. And so, it’s really important for us to be connected to a rhythm of reflection on the neighborhood and the community that we are in.

And so, we actually take February as Black History Month and recognize Black church leaders in history, obviously Dr. Martin Luther King, but Fannie Lou Hamer and others who have played a huge role in the development of not just Boston, but the US. And then we are we take Memorial Day as, yes, it’s Memorial Day, but it’s also the anniversary of the murder of George Floyd.

And those Sundays, four Sundays up to Juneteenth, which is now a national holiday, celebrating the end of slavery as it was announced in the South, in Texas on June 19th many years ago. So, the rhythms that we use in our church reflect a way of staying engaged, a way of keeping up to date with current events and casting forth a vision of what it means to be a Christian citizen in our communities. And trying as a person and a community that’s trying to bring shalom, God, shalom into our lives, into our neighborhoods. This is really important.

So do we do Advent and Lent. We do all these things, but on top of that, we layer in a liturgical rhythm that really rests on the historic black church in the US.

I think that is unusual as far as I can tell, especially for a diverse church. But I think it’s been so powerful, and I would really encourage this audience to consider things like that. How do we build in rhythms that help us maintain a vision of engagement with our neighbors and a sense of citizenship?

[01:00:53] Cara: Yeah. There’s so much richness in all that you just shared. Going back to a couple of things that really spoke to me is the communal aspect of development. You said something about a web that is being weaved and how sometimes it’s the intentionality and sometimes it’s just inviting into your life a little bit and how that’s intergenerational as well.

I think that’s really key because development starts at all stages, development is generational. We can all participate in the development of one another to a certain extent because we are part of the body together. And I think that was a really beautiful example of that a story that you shared.

And so, I really thank you for sharing that. And I pray that’s something that we continue to see more and more in our church, is a vibrancy of the body of Christ coming together.

And then even in what you just shared, I think that is something that develops us as a community when we have rhythms that do connect us to engagement in our neighborhood. That’s something that develops us missionally, develops us in connection, and develops us in that way.

And so, I think that’s a really important thing that you’ve put out there for us to consider.

[01:02:24] Mako: Glad it was helpful. Yeah, it’s a great reminder to me of the things that can happen and the ways that the Lord can work.

[01:02:32] Cara: Absolutely. And in that vein the next thing that I was wondering about, I know that this is one of the things that I and others especially see in you as a particular gifting that God has given you—the gift of evangelism and having that kind of missional posture and mindset.

So how do you approach developing either new members in a church community, those who are new Christians? Those who aren’t  Christians? How do you approach development in that sense?

[01:03:14] Mako: That’s a great question. In our church we do have an exploring membership class that is three or four sessions long, and we are regularly doing that now, like at least once a year. Last year we did it twice based on people’s availability and interest. And for new Christian members who are looking to really be part of the community, I think that we just try to be as (number one) transparent as possible about how the church works in our particular church. Here’s our budget. Here’s the commitments that we have made and the help that we need to carry out what we think God has laid on our hearts in terms of our special mission and our context.

So, we talk a lot about partnership. We read the book of Philippians together, and we talk about that because there Paul talks a lot about partnership in the gospel, partnership with one another, and what does that look like? Briefly that is how we introduced folks.

I think that our church rhythm says a lot already about us, which is nice because then we don’t have to just keep repeating ourselves. This is not a matter of just rhetoric. It’s a matter of our church structure. So, there’s that.

We do have periodic training, or discussions. How do we share the gospel and how do we answer this tough question or that tough question? We have a Facebook group that I’m sure most churches do, but as a forum for bouncing ideas around and a whole bunch of other things, like just friendly messages and things like that.

But yeah, that is how we develop new members. I think it’s pretty important to say, the way we understand Jesus is as a reflection of the Father, right? And I know GCI is huge on this point, and I so love the folks, the leadership, and the organization of GCI for that.

I think what we as a church also have landed on is we say God’s justice is restorative, not retributive. And we’re comfortable saying that; it sometimes makes people ask more questions, but that helps us set expectations for we are always called into partnership with God to restore things—restore ourselves, restore relationships, restore the shalom that God wants for our community for the world. So that’s important just to set expectations with new believers folks who are new to Christ.

We do have a baptism class. We talk about what it means to be a new believer. We have some literature on that. We are often doing book discussions. And it’s not as simple as studying the gospel of Matthew, which is what I would really like to do, but because people are coming in at all ages.

I think the basic paradigm is still there. And our heart is there. It’s woven into our preaching and so on. So, I’m encouraged by that.

And then of course, there are folks who are not yet believers and they may not have made a commitment to Jesus, but they’re, for one reason or another, they’ve become part of our community.

And I think it has a lot to do with how we develop them comes out of our understanding of Genesis and our understanding of the creation and being made in the image of God. What it means is, yes even though we wrestle with sin and brokenness, there is still the image of God that we’re made in.

And that means that our desires, at least originally, are good. Now, we may not handle all those desires well or appropriately but fundamentally they’re good. And our desire for community, our desire for love, our desire for justice, meaning beauty those are good. And that it comes from God.

And so, as people enter into our community, they are also hopefully reflecting a little bit on themselves. They’re getting to know themselves in a context where we hope that they will see that Jesus is the full revelation of goodness, beauty, justice, meaning, and so on. It’s less a structure and more something that is caught.

It’s in the air we breathe. But that language, that common language is very important. And I will say that I’ll just paint the contrast. People who are overly influenced by the tradition—Augustine to Luther and Calvin that emphasized only sin and only depravity in human beings, I think have done us a disservice because then Christians get really suspicious of non-Christians. Hey, there’s no good in you. And I’m more suspicious and afraid of my neighbor than curious and expecting to actually have a valuable friendship here. If all you think of other people who are not following Jesus is they’re just evil, it’s not a recipe for a good conversation or a good friendship. Then what evangelism is going to look like in that paradigm is: I’m going to just tell you stuff and I want to hear your response. And Jesus did this and that, and how do you respond?

It’s always important to be able to say what Jesus did and what Jesus’ love is but to not listen as part of evangelism is awful.

You, and I’m sure everyone hearing this podcast, know what it’s like to be in the presence of someone who really doesn’t listen to much of what you say and is not curious about your life. But if God is working in people’s hearts, their consciences, as Paul says in Romans 2, then we would expect that there is something that we would connect to in the lives of non-Christians. And yeah, that’s part of what is the ethos at our church.

[01:11:42] Cara: No, that’s really helpful, Mako.

And unfortunately, we’re coming up towards the end of our time, so I have just one final question for you. What words of encouragement would you leave with our listeners when it comes to the development of people and leaders in the local church?

[01:12:07] Mako: Great question. I think I would just continue on that theme, which is God is always at work. And we are never the initiators of God’s work in other people’s lives. We get the privilege of coming alongside the work of Jesus by his Spirit in other people, regardless of where they are in relation to him.

Because God is always doing things to draw people towards Jesus and towards more and more Christlikeness. We need to cultivate good listening skills. We need to have spiritual ears and eyes to discern what God is doing in other people. And I think that makes leadership development a lot of fun! That makes evangelism a lot of fun because it’s not just a two-way conversation that we’re having with ourselves and myself and another person. It’s really a three-way conversation at least. And we’re asking questions, what God, what are you doing here? What is this opportunity before us? And if there is something that you’re laying  on other people’s hearts, or if you’re nudging them in a certain direction, then just help me to see it.

I would say enjoy the book of Philippians, especially Philippians 2:13: For it is God who is at work in you to will and to want or to do and to desire to do his good work. That is just great stuff.

[01:14:01] Cara: That is such a great word to end us on. Thank you, Mako, so much for your time with us today. But I’m not finished with you just yet. I do have a number of fun and random questions for you, so if you’re ready.

The first thing that comes to mind, and we will rapid-fire question. All right. Okay. Good to go? So, I know you like cooking. This first question, what is your favorite seasoning?

[01:14:35] Mako: Ooh. Ooh. Chipotle peppers.

[01:14:42] Cara: Oh, okay. Yeah, that’s a good one. That’s a good one.

What is something that always gives you childlike joy?

[01:14:53]Mako: Reading some of my favorite books. These days it would be like Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings, a little bit of Harry Potter, some Narnia, that kind of thing.

[01:14:42] Cara: Oh, that’s excellent, because my next question was, what is your favorite Lord of the Rings quote?

[01:15:16] Mako: Ooh I gosh, that’s so hard.

[01:15:23] Cara: I know.

[01:15:23] Mako: In the past few months I would say it’s been—because I lost my mom in October—so it’s been Gandalf saying to the Hobbits at the very end of the book before he and Frodo and the elves sail away from Middle Earth, and they go to the undying lands. He says, “I will not say, do not weep. For not all tears are an evil.” Oh, it just gets me.

[01:15:59] Cara: That is beautiful. Oh, that is a beautiful one. Yeah. Let’s see. What would the title of your autobiography be, Mako?

[01:16:17] Mako: Yeah, that’s a really good question. How about, He Tried?

[01:16:26] Cara: I love it. No, I really like that. Okay.

If you could invent a holiday, what would it be and what would you call it?

[01:16:39] Mako: Oh man. I would invent a holiday that somehow honors Irenaeus and Athanasius. My two favorite church fathers, either something about them, their life, their leadership. Irenaeus was martyred so we can pick a day to honor that, or Athanasius suffered five times in exile to defend the deity of Jesus.

I don’t know. Something like that.

[01:17:09] Cara: That’s good. That would be so cool. Yeah. I like it. I like it.

[01:17:13] Mako: We need to celebrate the saints. Do you know what I mean?

[01:17:09] Cara: Yeah. I do. I do. All right. And then final question. What is your biggest pet peeve?

[01:17:13] Mako: My biggest pet peeve? Oh boy.

[01:17:34] Cara: Now you have to expose yourself.

[01:17:35] Mako: I know. Okay, in this season of life, it’s when I discover that my son has slept on the couch, instead of going to his room, he has a bed. It’s just laziness. It’s just laziness.

[01:18:01] Cara: Oh, that’s too funny. That’s too funny. I laugh, especially because I do that more than I should as well. Oh, I feel you, John. I feel you.

[01:17:35] Mako: We got to make sleep a priority. Sleep is a choice, right? It’s not just something that happens to you while you’re watching your videos.

[01:18:01] Cara: We agree to disagree, Mako.

Oh. But on that lovely note, I so appreciate you taking the time to join us today. It was a wonderful, enriching conversation and I’m sure that our listeners will take much away to ponder and, I pray, put into practice.

And it is our practice, to end our episodes with prayer. And so Mako, would you be willing to pray for our churches and pastors and ministry leaders in GCI?

[01:18:53] Mako: Absolutely. And Cara, it’s great to reconnect with you and to be with you in this GCI context. It’s an honor to be on the podcast. So, let’s pray.

Heavenly Father, thank you so much that you are always at work developing us. And a great deal of our development has to do with discerning other people’s development, being an encouragement to them, teaching them, role modeling things to them, being mindful of them.

And I pray that you would give all of these GCI leaders joy in doing that. May you open up the broad horizons of your love in front of them, in front of the people for whom they cast vision and hold vision in place. And I pray that you would, by your Spirit, bring new things to life, new fruit, new opportunities, and a new life of, in the garden of sorts, as best we can have it here. In your name, Amen.

[01:20:09] Cara: Amen. Until next time folks, keep on living and sharing the gospel.


We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

 

Sermon for September 3, 2023 – Proper 17

Program Transcript


Speaking of Life 5041Christ, Conqueror of My Soul
Cara Garrity

The English poet, William Ernest Henley, was an avowed atheist. You might recognize his name from his famous poem entitled, “Invictus.” Invictus is Latin for “Unconquered.”

Several generations of high school and college students have had this poem quoted to them at their graduation ceremonies around the world.

The last line of this poem boasts this:

It matters not how strait the gait,  

how charged with punishments the scroll,

I am the master of my fate,   

I am the captain of my soul.1

Many have risen to their feet with applause upon hearing this inspiring declaration. I wonder how these words fall on your ears. Do they make you want to go out and conquer the world?

While we mortal beings do possess great power and can achieve a great many things, are we truly the masters of our own fate, the captains of our own souls?

In his gospel, Matthew records Jesus’ stinging rebuke to one of his closest disciples. After hearing from Jesus that he was going to suffer and die, Peter challenged Jesus to be the master of his own fate, the captain of his soul.

Jesus stopped that train of thought and informed Peter in no uncertain terms that he didn’t have the things of God in mind. Following those words, Jesus clarifies where true life is found – by following him.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. What good will it do for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?”
Matthew 16:24-26

Jesus makes it clear to his disciples, and to us, that as his followers, we must die to our self-will. Entering into life with Christ, opens us to experience his love and the greater reality of his kingdom.  Captived by Christ we realize that our longings and desires are met through participating with him in drawing humanity into the Father’s loving embrace. We trade our self-generated ideas of glory in for giving him the glory trusting he is working for our good.

We must die to the very idea of being the masters of our own destinies. Someone else is in charge, and that someone is Jesus. He is the One who entered into our suffering, conquered our souls with the Father’s love, and who through the leading of the Holy Spirit brings us into a destiny that is far greater than one who we could ask for or imagine.

In response to Henley’s “Invictus”, Dorothy Day penned her poem, entitled “Conquered”. The opening line states:

Out of the light that dazzles me,                                    

bright as the sun from pole to pole,                                        

I thank the God I know to be,                                             

for Christ-the conqueror of my soul.2

Captivated by Christ may you trade your self will for the glorious destiny he has in store for all of humanity.

I’m Cara Garrity, Speaking of Life.

1) Invictus by William Ernest Henley | Poetry Foundation

2) www.desiringgod.org/articles/invictus-redeemed

Psalm 105:1-6, 23-26, 45c • Exodus 3:1-15 • Romans 12:9-21 • Matthew 16:21-28

This week’s theme is God’s concern and care for us. In our call to worship Psalm, the psalmist reminds us to remember the wonders that God has performed on our behalf. In the book of Exodus, God speaks to Moses, letting him know that he has heard the cries of his people and will act on their behalf. In the gospels, Matthew records Jesus telling Peter that the concerns of God are far above Peter’s own concerns, and in Romans, Paul admonishes the Roman church to be concerned for one another after the pattern of Christ’s concern for us.

Overcoming Evil With Good

Romans 12:9-21 (NIV)

Over the past 15 years, we have witnessed a significant rise in the amount of superhero movies that have been released. These often feature some of the most well-known actors in the world. Superhero movies are also among the highest grossing of any genre. In 2019 alone, these movies brought in more than three billion dollars.

A common thread found in these movies is that the superhero will encounter obstacles, dangers, and setbacks. And no superhero movie is complete without an opposing force. A force of evil that must be overcome with good. Sounds a lot like church, doesn’t it? What do we do when the church is in a battle with evil? Do we even know what evil looks like? And how do we overcome it?

In our pericope today, Paul admonishes the Roman church to overcome evil with good. We are going to look at what was going on in the Roman church, how Paul chose to address it, and in the process, we will also learn how to overcome evil in our world today.

Read Romans 12:9-21

The letter to the Romans was written by Paul, in large part, to address the division that was occurring between Gentile and Jewish believers in that diverse church. Those of Jewish ancestry were claiming the blessings passed down from Abraham, while the Gentile’s were boasting of being grafted into Christ as the new family of God. Neither were wrong, yet neither were acting graciously about it.

Up until the twelfth chapter of Romans, Paul had been busily demolishing the arguments that the church was dividing over. He starts off chapter 12 with a “therefore,” and goes on to describe how we should live with Christ in us. Beginning with verse nine, he starts giving his final instructions on how to remedy this “evil” that had infected the church.

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality. (Romans 12:9-13 NIV)

In this first section, we are told how to primarily deal with the evil in our inner circle. This includes those we are closest to, and those with whom we are already in fellowship. Someone once said that the only army that shoots its wounded is the Christian army. Unfortunately, there is much truth in that statement.

A world of weary Christian soldiers needs a place of peace, a place of safety, where they can lay down their weapons and join an army of other believers skilled in the spirit of peacemaking. If the church cannot be the place where there is support, encouragement, respect, and hospitality, then where else are we supposed to turn?

Churches need to be sanctuaries of healing, not places where we must hide our wounds. The charge we have been given in these scriptures is to root out evil by caring for one another. It’s not about how well we can pass one another’s theological test, but rather about the love we have in Christ, a love shared with each other.

In the Working Preacher Commentary, Israel Kamudzandu wrote the following:

The harmony of the Trinity is none other than the practice of love, because love is the essence of God. Love drives and builds a fellowship of believers. Love is the radiating orbit on which the cross of Jesus Christ is centered and calls on everyone to accept and share the same love.1

The church, then, can be thought of as an incubator for the formation of love amongst believers, so that we might live a life of love and service to a much larger world. For it is in the church that we are surrounded and upheld by the undeserved and steadfast love of God, and where the community of Christ practices the love we receive and experience in the Trinity. Let’s continue:

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. (Romans12:14-16 NIV)

While these words can apply to relationships inside the body of Christ, they are meant to move us further into our communities. It is here where we will naturally encounter opposition to our faith. This might include those who might be very different from us as well as those who live in very different circumstances from us.

It is one thing to honor and care for those who care for us, to show love to those who are just like us. It is a whole new level to be able to love and serve those who may not care for us at all.

Remember, when Christ performed the self-emptying act of washing his disciples’ feet, he also washed the feet of his betrayer.  Judas received the love and service of Christ just as much as the other disciples did.

Sometimes we confuse emotionality with love. The kind of love that we have been called to show to others does not depend on whether we feel like it or not. This love comes from the transformational power of the new life we have received in Christ. This love seeks the best in others, the forgiveness of others, as well as peace and reconciliation with others.

Loving someone is not appealing to a person’s likes and preferences, rather, it is displaying actions towards them in ways that will help move them to experience God’s goodness.

Let’s finish the passage:

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:17-21 NIV)

These verses bring us to the people who have done us the most harm. The ones that have brought us to the point where we want revenge or are tempted to want to see their destruction.

This is the place where we might want to justify our participation with evil, where we want to be granted the right to take matters into our own hands. But even here, you will notice that Paul ends this section with nearly the identical words that he started out saying in verse nine. Overcome evil with good.

The spirit that is in the world is one of dividing and conquering. We see nation against nation, political parties in violent confrontation, men against women, the old against the young, all the way to the breakdown of the family unit. We, the church, can be overcome by this evil when we allow ourselves to be drawn into the ways and the thinking of the world. But we cannot lose out on the opportunities to display God’s love even to those who might despise us. In verse 20, Paul gives us what many find a confusing statement.

If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on their heads. (Romans 12:20 NIV)

While theologians have differing opinions of an exact illustration of this phrase that Paul uses, it is clear it is referring to repaying hostility with kindness and forgiveness. This might lead to an enemy feeling shame. A modern-day metaphor might be your enemy having egg on his face.

We are to overcome evil with good in our churches, in our communities, and towards those who would do us harm. This might seem like a feat only for those who possess the strength and abilities of a superhero. Fortunately, for us, we have someone who provides far more than anything that could come out of DC or Marvel Comics.

We depend on the all-powerful love of God in Christ Jesus who is always with us. A love that conquers all and enables us to serve others. A love that has no kryptonite. A love from a God who truly overcomes evil with good.

For Reference:

1) www.workingpreacher.org/commentaries/revised-common-lectionary/ordinary-22/commentary-on-romans-129-21

2) Kenneth Samuel Wuest: “Romans in the Greek New Testament” For the English Reader (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1961)

 

The Art of Neighboring w/ Geordie Ziegler W1

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September 3 — Proper 17 of Ordinary Time
Romans 12:9-21, “The Art of Neighboring”

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Program Transcript


The Art of Neighboring w/ Geordie Ziegler W1

Anthony: Let’s turn our attention to the first pericope of the month. It’s Romans 12:9-21. I’ll be reading from the Common English Bible. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 17 in Ordinary Time, which falls on September 3.

Love should be shown without pretending. Hate evil, and hold on to what is good. 10 Love each other like the members of your family. Be the best at showing honor to each other. 11 Don’t hesitate to be enthusiastic—be on fire in the Spirit as you serve the Lord! 12 Be happy in your hope, stand your ground when you’re in trouble, and devote yourselves to prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of God’s people, and welcome strangers into your home. 14 Bless people who harass you—bless and don’t curse them. 15 Be happy with those who are happy, and cry with those who are crying. 16 Consider everyone as equal, and don’t think that you’re better than anyone else. Instead, associate with people who have no status. Don’t think that you’re so smart. 17 Don’t pay back anyone for their evil actions with evil actions, but show respect for what everyone else believes is good. 18 If possible, to the best of your ability, live at peace with all people. 19 Don’t try to get revenge for yourselves, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath. It is written, Revenge belongs to me; I will pay it back, says the Lord20 Instead, If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. By doing this, you will pile burning coals of fire upon his head21 Don’t be defeated by evil, but defeat evil with good.

Geordie, if you were teaching from this pericope there’s a lot of Christian living shoehorned into this, what would you focus on and why?

Geordie: This is a crazy coincidence, but the first half of this passage is actually being read at my son’s wedding this coming weekend. When I saw that, I was pretty amazed. But if you imagine a married couple making this kind of promise to each other, to make this your intention, especially the first few verses. Love is not about pretending; it’s being real with each other.

It’s holding onto the good and not fixating on—it’s so easy. I’ve been married 33 years. It’s so easy to, at times, to—something maybe annoys me with my wife. And then I’m just fixated on that and holding onto that instead of holding onto so many good things.

And on down the line, I think the whole section is such a good challenge to how we would treat each other in close relationships and in relationships that aren’t quite as intimate as marriage. Showing honor to each other.

Being enthusiastic. The word—I’m checking it in a different translation for on your translation it says, beyond fire in the Spirit. I think sometimes it’s “your Spiritual fervor,” which is an interesting word. It both refers to fire and bubbling boiling. Just energized by the Spirit as you serve one another. So that certainly attracts my attention.

But I think I’d want to focus or emphasize that everything in this passage describes the way that God is revealed to be in Jesus. Jesus is all these things. There’s no description, there’s no command or call that God gives to us that he doesn’t describe himself in the first place. He’s not telling us to take out the trash because he’s too lazy to do it.

Maybe a second comment. If I were wanting to focus, I think it’s worth taking a little bit of time on verse 19 because that can easily get misunderstood. On the surface, it looks like it’s saying that God is a vengeful God paying back evil for evil. And I’ve heard that verse quoted often by those that insist that it’s in God’s character to be retributive and punish violently and eternally. But I think the text actually is making the opposite point, and we just need to keep reading the passage.

So, if we actually stopped at verse 20, but verse 21 continues—or no, you read verse 21. That’s the end. “So do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” And that’s how God overcomes evil. He doesn’t overcome it by retributive or violent punishment. He overcomes it his way, which is by his goodness.

Anthony: Yeah, it reminds me, Geordie. I saw a quote from Bradley Jersak and he mentioned, when has guilt and shame retribution ever brought somebody to a loving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ? Because his way is mercy and when Jesus showed mercy, he wasn’t trying to change the Father’s heart toward that person or toward humanity, but revealing the heart, right? This is who God is and the way he operates.

Geordie: Yeah. I think anytime it’s so easy for people to lift verses out of context and then use them in ways they aren’t meant to. So, this is, I think, a good test case or just even a good teaching opportunity for people to recognize, let’s read the big picture here.

Let’s see what Paul’s actually trying to do. There’re a couple ways I think to come at it. I think I was reading some—you mentioned Brad Jersak—I was reading I think something by him related to this. It was talking that verse 19 is actually quoting from Deuteronomy 32, which is a different emphasis.

Just because the Old Testament is quoted doesn’t mean the way it was meant in the Old Testament is the way they’re meaning it in the New Testament. So, in the Old Testament, it’s almost a celebration of vengeance. But it seems like Paul is subverting that original intent. And instead of advocating vengeance and violence, he’s actually promoting enemy love.

And this whole section is caught up in the relation to the state or to the government. And of course, we know the government that Paul is writing under is Nero’s government which is like the imperial beast. It’s the worst government they could imagine in so many ways. And yet Paul is warning his people to not become like them.

Because first of all, that’s not Christ’s way, and secondly, you’ll just get killed. So, the way to be Christ person is to overcome that evil with good, with a kind of non-violent resistance that proclaims Jesus is Lord and Caesar’s not. The weapons of our warfare are not the weapons of this world.

It’s a gospel of peace and acts of enemy love. And that’s how God’s going to defeat this world. So that’s one angle.

Another angle is a little bit what George McDonald does with this, which I think is very challenging because his approach—and maybe I could read a little bit of what he says, and I wish I had the sermon. I took this out of his devotional. But he says:

No prayer for any revenge that would gratify the selfishness of our nature, a thing to be burned out of us by the fire of God, needs think to be heard. Be sure, when the Lord prayed his Father to forgive those who crucified him, he uttered his own wish and his Father’s will at once: God will never punish according to the abstract abomination of sin, as if men knew what they were doing. “Vengeance is mine,” he says: with a right understanding of it, we might as well pray for God’s vengeance as for his forgiveness, for that vengeance is to destroy the sin—to make the sinner abjure and hate it; nor is there any satisfaction in a vengeance that seeks or effects less. If nothing else will do, then hell-fire; if less will do, whatever brings repentance. Friends, if any prayers are offered against us because of some wrong you or I have done, God grant us his vengeance! Let us not think that we shall get off! And part of what McDonald’s getting at is God is committed to purifying all that is not of love’s kind out of us. And. That’s a good thing. Yes. So sometimes I know I was brought up with the idea that once you believe in Jesus, you’re forgiven. [from Consuming Fire, the devotional version of George MacDonald’s Unspoken Sermons]

And part of what McDonald’s getting at is God is committed to purifying all that is not of love’s kind out of us. And that’s a good thing. So sometimes I know I was brought up with the idea that, well, you know, once you believe in Jesus, you’re forgiven. And then you don’t have to face your sin because Jesus did it for you. And that’s, on one level, sure, we’re forgiven, but on another level, God’s committed to healing all in us that would need forgiveness. And that’s a good thing.

Anthony: Thanks be to God that the old Anthony Mullins will not inherit the kingdom. And may it be so, Lord.

Verse 15, Geordie, indicates that, at least in my mind, we should place-share, enter into the place of another, through kinship and mutuality, by rejoicing with those who rejoice and mourning with those who mourn.

You are someone who vocationally offers soul care, Spiritual formation to others. So, I imagine you would have much to say about this topic. Using the passage and thinking Christologically, what guidance would you give people who yearn for deeper connection? And frankly we all do, whether we know it or not, we want deeper connection. What does that look like? What would you say?

Geordie: This is such an important verse. I think it offers us a kind of litmus test for our love. Is our love real or not? Is it sincere or not? Are we really just out for ourselves or not? If I’m really for others, over myself, then I’m going to celebrate their blessings and achievements rather than harboring some kind of competitive jealousy or envy, which is so easy to fall into.

And then it’s turned back on myself and I’m thinking about, oh gosh, I wish I had that, instead of just being able to celebrate with them. And then when those that have persecuted me or have been unkind to me, when they’re mourning or suffering, love mourns with and for them. And that’s a real test of love. I’ve had to wrestle with that myself many times. And it’s a reminder of the kind of love that God calls us to.

One of the things I do, in addition to my full-time work with Imago Christi, I also work part-time at a hospital as a chaplain. And as I said before the show, I had a shift last night. I just got off a couple hours ago and as I begin every shift, I know that I’m going to be with people who are mourning. And occasionally, I get to be with people who are rejoicing at some news. But nine out of 10 visits I make are mostly about dealing with mourning, with grief and loss, the mourning of unexpected trauma or diagnosis or impending death.

And people will sometimes say to me, I don’t know how you do it? And it’s hard, but my approach is pretty simple. And I should maybe just say first, initially my first feelings were performance anxiety. Gosh, I hope I know the right thing to say and feeling awkward. But I’ve learned over time to take a different approach.

So, when I’m on my way to visit a patient, I just pray a simple prayer. “Jesus, help me to love what I find there. Help me to love as you love this person, this family, this situation.” And that prayer, that focus on love has an amazing power to lower my anxiety level and also to enable me to be attentive to what they’re actually grieving or mourning. And not bring all my own assumptions into it. So, I don’t know if that answers your original question.

Anthony: It does. It does. And God bless you and your work, and I appreciate what you said about how the prayer that you pray to Lord Jesus helps you to not center yourself in the process, in the relationship, in the time that you’re with somebody who’s grieving.

He empowers you by the Spirit to be with the other. And ultimately, I think Andrew Root was the one I read that talked about place-sharing. It’s just entering it into the grief. And ultimately, isn’t that what compassion is? It’s with somebody’s pain. It’s with their suffering. God be with you as you go. And thank you for staying awake for us. We appreciate that.

 


Small Group Discussion Questions

From Speaking of Life

  • What are some of the ways that we attempt being the masters of our own fates or captains of our souls?
  • What does it mean to take up your cross and follow Jesus?
  • What does daily discipleship in Jesus look like to you?

From the Sermon

  • How can our churches be “sanctuaries for healing”?
  • What are some practical ways of washing someone’s feet or heaping coals upon their heads?
  • Share a time when either you or someone you know was able to overcome evil with good?

Sermon for September 10, 2023 – Proper 18

Program Transcript


Speaking of Life 5042 | Jesus Heals Relationships
Greg Williams

Human beings were created and designed for relationships. God made us not only with the capacity to relate to him and each other but with the need to connect to thrive. Despite these truths, human beings often do things that disrupt our relationships. Even when we have the best intentions, we can hurt each other. And we respond to that hurt in different ways. Some of those ways are healthy, and some of those ways can perpetuate a cycle of harm. It is no wonder that Jesus instructed his followers on how we are to respond when fellow believers cause harm. Let’s read from Matthew 18:

If another member of the church sins against you, go and point out the fault when the two of you are alone. If the member listens to you, you have regained that one. But if you are not listened to, take one or two others along with you, so that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.”
Matthew 18:15-20 (NRSV)

Jesus outlined a step-by-step process for how to deal with relational conflict that is very helpful from a practical standpoint. Additionally, Jesus’ teaching provides two spiritually important truths about God. First, person-to-person relationships are important to him. He is concerned about how we connect to each other. Second, God wants to see disrupted relationships restored and he takes an active role in healing our relational wounds. This does not mean that believers can expect every hurt to be healed and every broken relationship mended in this life. However, we can expect God to help us do our part to be at peace with all people.

This is good news for those of us who live in a world that often seems so divided. If we create room for him in our relationships, Jesus will show up in our squabbles, grudges, and estrangements and provide healing. He desires to be in our midst when we sit down to reconcile with a neighbor who has harmed us. In fact, when we prayerfully seek God’s help, the Holy Spirit will help us see our neighbor as Christ would see that person and treat that person as Jesus would treat them. This changes the dynamic of the relationship and puts the relational conflict in perspective. Jesus is the restorer of all things — even broken relationships.

I’m Greg Williams, Speaking of Life.

Psalm 149:1-9 • Exodus 12:1-14 • Romans 13:8-14 • Matthew 18:15-20

As we continue with Ordinary Time, a season of focusing on how we can participate in the work Jesus is doing in the world, followers of Christ will inevitably come across those who have set themselves against the movement of God. It is important to understand that God is just and deals with wrongdoing. At the same time, Christians are still expected to love others, even those who behave badly. The theme for this week is loving others and trusting God to be just. In the Psalm passage, we read how God himself judged and opposed the nations that made themselves enemies of Israel. In Exodus, we see the institution of the Passover, which includes a judgment upon Egypt for enslaving the Israelites. At the same time, in the passage in Romans, Paul reminds us that we ought to love our neighbor. In Matthew, Jesus teaches his followers how to lovingly deal with someone who sins against us.

Blessedly Indebted

Romans 13:8-14

I fear that the mailbox has lost its purpose. There was time when the mailbox held cherished correspondence from loved ones and important, time-sensitive materials. Now, it seems like the purpose of the mailbox is to keep our recycling bins full. Each day, millions of Americans go to their mailbox, empty it with hope, only to disappointedly discard most of what is in it. It is a strange ritual, and I am sure anthropologists of the future will try to figure out why companies worked so hard to keep every recycle bin in America full. Given the number of credit card, personal loan, and refinancing offers I receive each week, perhaps the new purpose of the mailbox is to help me trade one kind of debt for another. If all the financial institutions sending me letters would instead mail me a check for the amount it costs to send me their offers, I could get out of debt and still have enough left over to live comfortably!

One of the reasons we get so many offers from financial institutions is because most of us have a mortgage, car payment, student loan, credit card, or some combination of all of these. Around 80% of people living in the USA carry some amount of debt. Despite the fact that financial debt is common, it can cause people to experience strong feelings of shame, anxiety, and hopelessness. We do not like being in debt, and many, either consciously or unconsciously, view it as some kind of personal failure.

What if I told you that there was a kind of debt that was good? Would you believe me if I said there is a kind of debt that the more of it a person carries, the more they are blessed? Many of you would reject the idea of a “good debt.” The term sounds like an oxymoron. However, as followers of Christ, there is a kind of debt that we should strive to owe. Paul speaks about this unique type of debt:

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. (Romans 13:8-10 NIV)

As believers, we owe our neighbors a debt of love. We are beholden to a law that obligates us to love others. Some of us may be shouting, “Hallelujah!” However, if you are like me, the words “command” and “law” give you pause. Aren’t we supposed to have freedom in Christ? Didn’t Jesus set us free from the Law as a means to become right with God? As I mentioned earlier, the indebtedness Paul is speaking about is something we should welcome. To understand what the apostle is saying, we need to dig a little deeper.

To many of us, the law is a set of rules, enforced by a governing authority, that are intended to create a just and ordered society. We may associate the law with control and see it as something that can potentially limit personal freedom. However, God’s law is not like that. To understand God’s law, we first need to realize that God’s original intent for humanity was (and is) to live with us in an eternal, loving relationship. When humanity sinned, we corrupted ourselves, our relationship with God, our relationship with other human beings, and our connection to creation. We no longer inherently recognize the ways of our loving creator. We do not naturally know how to live in relationship with God and others. We do not know how to live free without infringing upon the freedom of our neighbors.

Through the patriarchs and matriarchs of the Bible, as well as the nation of Israel, God reintroduced himself to humanity. He once again had to show humanity who he was and who we are. Through Moses, God gave Israel a set of laws that were instructions on how to navigate their relationship with God and with other people. The Law reminded Israel that God was their savior — the one who freed them from bondage in Egypt — and that they should respond to God with love, gratitude, and obedience. God’s law required obedience, not because God desired to control Israel, but because we had become ignorant of how God created us to live. Therefore, the Law was like “training wheels” for how to live in harmony with God and in community. It was meant to help human beings understand and navigate their relationships.

Jesus, in his earthly ministry, expanded humanity’s understanding of the purpose of God’s law. From him, we understand that the Law was never meant to be just a set of rules to follow. It was designed to guide our hearts toward loving God and neighbor. The Law was revealed as a reflection of who Jesus is. It served as a placeholder until Jesus could come and provide a more comprehensive revelation of God and humanity. By living and loving like Jesus, his followers fulfill the purpose and intent of the Law. Following the commands of Jesus actually brings freedom, because Jesus only acts for our good. God only commands humanity to do things that bring a fuller life. So, freedom isn’t about being able to do whatever we want; freedom is doing what the Creator says because only he knows what is best for us.

Through the lens of Christ, we can understand that owing our neighbor a debt of love simply means that they do not need to earn our care, just like human beings do not earn God’s grace. We receive forgiveness of sin and new life as a free gift. In response to Jesus, we do not look at others and decide whether or not to love them based on our self-centered criteria. Instead, we look at the grace we have received because of him. We proactively love others because our neighbor is made in the image of the God who saved us. No matter a person’s background, behavior, political affiliation, skin color, language spoken, IQ, or any other excuse for dehumanization, we owe our neighbor a debt of love.

Additionally, loving our neighbor is one of the primary ways we demonstrate our love for God. It is through human relationships where our response to God is put into action. Once we have a clear, accurate view of God, he is easy to love because he is perfect. Jesus is amazing! However, loving God includes loving others. We can proclaim our love of God and still be consciously or unconsciously filled with selfishness, biases, apathy, and contentiousness. Since human beings are not perfect – including each one of us – relating to each other can produce a love that endures, overlooks faults, and prefers others over oneself. This is how God loves. This is how he is able to extend grace to rebellious children like us. His love is big enough to embrace flawed creatures like you and me. So, the only way we can develop his type of love is through trying to follow Christ’s loving example in our own human relationships.

The debt of love we owe our neighbor not only benefits others, it is an important part of our own spiritual formation. As believers share the love of God with more and more people, they get many more opportunities to practice being like Jesus. By loving others, we become more like Christ. Not only that, but at the same time we are following Jesus in loving our neighbor, our neighbor is being led by Jesus to love us. We get to be shaped by experiencing the love of Christ as it flows through our fellow Christians. Of course, none of us loves perfectly. We all make mistakes in our relationships. However, God intended that the debt of love we owe our neighbors result in our growth, not in our depletion. Carrying this good debt is a blessing.

Since loving our neighbor positively benefits our relationship with God, our neighbors’ well-being, and our own spiritual formation, Paul challenges his audience to be about the business of following Christ in loving others without delay. The apostle goes on to say:

And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh. (Romans 13:11-14 NIV)

In Paul’s words we can see a sense of urgency. He conveyed to his audience what is also true for us: none of us knows what tomorrow brings. None of us knows when Christ will return or when our lives will come to an end. Therefore, we should do our best to make the most of every moment. Those who follow Jesus have been freed from death and darkness by a loving God. His love should compel us to lay aside the things that distract and dissipate us. His love should compel us to clothe ourselves “with the Lord Jesus Christ.” His love should compel us to get our primary focus off ourselves and look to be a blessing to God and our neighbors. Why should we delay? What sense does it make to follow our own way when God’s way is right, true, and good? God has nothing but our well-being in mind. God’s ways are beautiful and perfect.

How do we begin to live out of our blessed indebtedness to love our neighbor? To be sure, we can only do it by following Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit. More specifically, here are a few ways to be blessedly indebted:

  • Be in prayer. We should regularly be in prayer for those God brings into our lives. Not only should we pray for their needs, but we should pray to discern how to best love them. We need God to teach us how to love.
  • Be a place-sharer. Place-sharing means empathetically relating to others so deeply that we share their “place.” We celebrate when they celebrate and mourn when they mourn. When our neighbor comes to harm, we comfort, encourage, and advocate for them. Place-sharing requires proximity. So, we need to do our best to be present in the life rhythms of our neighbors. Jesus was continually amongst the people, and we should walk in his ways.
  • Be a blessing. Through kindness, hospitality, humor, curiosity, generosity, and other virtues, we spread the aroma of Christ in our community. As we exhibit the qualities of Christ, people will be drawn to us, and we will have opportunities to place-share. Those who do not follow Christ may be prompted to ask questions about our behavior, opening the door for us to share the love of Christ with them.
  • Be a peacemaker. We must avoid the trap of only loving those who we perceive are like us. We should follow the leading of the Spirit to love our neighbors who differ from us culturally, economically, politically, and generationally. Also, we should do all we can to live at peace with our neighbors, including doing our best to forgive those who offend or hurt us.

The debt of love we owe our neighbors is a good debt. It is a debt that makes us rich. It is a debt that blesses others. It is a debt that makes us more like Christ. May Jesus shine through you as you live out of your blessed indebtedness.

The Art of Neighboring w/ Geordie Ziegler W2

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September 10 — Proper 18 of Ordinary Time
Romans 13:8-14, “Obligations of Love”

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Program Transcript


The Art of Neighboring w/ Geordie Ziegler W2

Anthony: Let’s transition to the second pericope of the month. It’s Romans 13:8-14. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 18 in Ordinary Time on September 10.

Geordie, would you read it for us please?

Geordie: Glad to.

8 Don’t be in debt to anyone, except for the obligation to love each other. Whoever loves another person has fulfilled the Law. The commandments, Don’t commit adultery, don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t desire what others have, and any other commandments, are all summed up in one word: You must love your neighbor as yourself. 10 Love doesn’t do anything wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is what fulfills the Law. 11 As you do all this, you know what time it is. The hour has already come for you to wake up from your sleep. Now our salvation is nearer than when we first had faith. 12 The night is almost over, and the day is near. So let’s get rid of the actions that belong to the darkness and put on the weapons of light. 13 Let’s behave appropriately as people who live in the day, not in partying and getting drunk, not in sleeping around and obscene behavior, not in fighting and obsession. 14 Instead, dress yourself with the Lord Jesus Christ, and don’t plan to indulge your selfish desires.

Anthony: So, Paul writes of the obligation to love each other. And I’ve, from time to time, heard gospel teachers talk about the obligations of love. The word obligation can feel a bit prickly or denotes something that’s only done out of duty. So, can you help us understand the covenant commitment and obligation to love?

Geordie: Sure. Yeah. God gave his promises to Abraham and then only 430 years later came the law at Sinai. And the law didn’t come to annul the promise or to impose conditions on grace, but to spell out the obligations of grace, to be the school master that leads us to Christ.

And so, Paul is arguing that in authentic Judaism, grace is prior to the law. So, the obligations of love are—well, maybe before I jump into that, Judaism is not synonymous with legalism. Sometimes we think, oh, the Jews were all about legalism and you had to earn grace, but that’s actually not how they thought about it. Sometimes, certainly.

But the basic theme was that there’s this covenant of God with his people. It’s not a contract. And so, kind of like marriage, love always brings its obligations. This is James Torrance: it has unconditional obligations, but the obligations of love are not conditions of love.

One way I think about it, last week I was away teaching at the School of Theology out here. And I said to the students I’ve been married 33 years. And for me to know that my wife loves me, I need to trust her love. And to trust it, I need to feel safe in it. And to trust it and feel safe, I need to know that she is committed to me when I’m apart from her, and she needs to know that I’m committed to her when I’m apart from her. And that’s an obligation of love, but it’s not a condition.

Human love, of course, has its limits, but God’s love doesn’t. And the invitation for us is to live with God’s kind of love where we are committed to the person regardless of their response. So, it’s not about duty.

Let me just add a thought from James Torrance. This comes from an article he wrote called “The Unconditional Freeness of Grace,” and he’s talking about this question: is grace prior to the law or is the law prior to grace? And he is using the analogy of marriage and he says, “To put it in other words, love, like marriage love, always brings its obligations—its unconditional obligations—but the obligations of love are not conditions of love. To turn a covenant into a contract is to turn categorical imperatives into hypothetical imperatives … and [that] weaken the imperatives. Legalism always weakens the character of love.”

And so, Paul—this is more of JB [James Torrance], he says, “‘Do I weaken the law’ says the Apostles—by seeing it in the context of grace? ‘No, I strengthen it!’ This question of the relation of law to grace is of paramount importance, because much evangelical preaching can go wrong at this point. It is possible to do two things which can lead to a misunderstanding of Paul. The first is to take the text, ‘the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ’ out of its context …”

And to build the whole theology and a preaching technique out of it. [Guest paraphrase] As if we need to preach the law so that people will eventually repent rather than preaching grace.

Anthony: So, Geordie, what is your favorite Jesus outfit? I recall the last time we had a conversation you mentioned your son really likes the way you dress, and it just popped back into my mind as I was thinking about your Christ-like clothing.

So, is there a Christ-like garment we Christians need to be wearing, but too often it can be found hanging in the closet, gathering dust of apathy?

Geordie: That’s such a good question. I’m amazed that you remembered that. Yeah, I love that image of my son dressing up in my clothes.

I think my favorite—and this is probably come to me over the last year and a half or so maybe two years really since becoming a part of Imago Christi. And there’s a broader story to that. But my favorite thing in the closet or maybe the clothing that I think is often gathering dust in the closet for many Christians is the outfit of joy.

Because the more I read the Gospels, the more I am struck by the constant sense of joy that seems to characterize Jesus’ relationship with the Father.

And that’s actually what I think about when I hear that phrase, “weapons of light.” When I see the word light or glory in the New Testament, I immediately think of what happens to someone’s face when they’re filled with joy. You know when I get home, came home this morning off my shift and I saw my wife was sitting having her devotions, and I look in her face. And I just see her face light up and her eyes shine that joy toward me.

And so, I think the “weapons of light,” the central one is the joy of the relationship of the Father and the Son. And as we participate in that, as we sit with them inside the circle of the Trinity, as we look upon the Father looking back at us with love, then we share that glory. We share the joy that they have, and our faces begin to light up.

But so often that’s not the clothing that we wear.

Anthony: That’s a good word. And that’s something that is fostered by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It’s a fruit that is born and nourished and flourishes within us in the presence of Jesus. That’s a really good word. Thank you for that.


Small Group Discussion Questions

From Speaking of Life

  • How do people typically deal with relational conflict? How does the typical ways people deal with relational conflict differ from the process Jesus describes?
  • Why do you think God cares about our human relationships?

From the sermon

  • What comes to mind when you hear the word debt?
  • In your own words, what does it mean to owe a neighbor a debt of love?

When you think about being in prayer for your neighbors, who are some people who come to mind? Are there ways to better live out your blessed indebtedness?

Sermon for September 17, 2023 – Proper 19

Program Transcript


Speaking of Life 5043Too Good to Be True
Jeff Broadnax

You’ve probably experienced a situation that just didn’t make sense to you. It was too good to be true, and you weren’t sure if you should believe it. Well, you’re in good company because Jesus shared a parable in Matthew 18 about God’s way of moving in the world that definitely sounds too good to be true.

The story begins with a slave in debt to a king for a lot of money, and he couldn’t pay it back. When the slave acknowledged his inability to repay and asked for more time, the king had a surprising response. Let’s read it together:

The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. When he began the reckoning, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him, and, as he could not pay, the lord ordered him to be sold, together with his wife and children and all his possessions and payment to be made. So the slave fell on his knees before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him, the lord of that slave released him and forgave him the debt. But that same slave, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’ Then his fellow slave fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ But he refused; then he went and threw him into prison until he would pay the debt.
Matthew 18:23-30 (NRSVUE)

If we look at the context of this parable, we see it’s a response to Peter’s question about how many times he was required to forgive someone. Though we don’t know why the first slave behaved as he did, we might speculate that his reaction was selfish human nature, accepting the forgiveness of his own debt, but being unwilling to do that for others.

We also could speculate that the first slave was afraid and didn’t trust the king. The slave couldn’t believe the forgiveness was true, and so he reacted out of fear. He terrorized those who owed him money because he didn’t believe the king would treat him so graciously.           

From this story, we might deduce that this slave didn’t know the king’s character, and as a result, he didn’t trust him. He wasn’t sure the king would keep his word about the forgiven debt. As a result, he transmitted his fear about his financial matters to those who owed him money, and he behaved as if his debt was not taken care of.

This parable from Jesus gives us a chance to consider how we feel about forgiveness. Do we believe we’re forgiven for our sins and brought into a loving relationship with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? If we do, then that belief will inform our relationships with others.

When we grasp that we’re known and loved despite our shortcomings, we’re more willing to love and accept others despite their shortcomings. Instead of acting selfishly or transmitting fear and behaving as if we have to earn the right to be forgiven, loved, and included, we can relax into the loving arms of God.

It might seem too good to be true, but if we believe Jesus came to show us God’s heart for humanity, we know we can trust that we’re forgiven and in the right relationship with God. And when something is that good, we have to pass it on to others. Rather than transmitting fear, we lovingly extend grace and forgiveness to others, trusting that there are some things that aren’t too good to be true. This helps them understand that they are also under the Father’s forgiveness.

May we believe in God’s goodness and love, trusting that it’s not too good to be true, knowing we’re forgiven, and extending the same grace to others.

I’m Jeff Broadnax, Speaking of Life.

Psalm 114:1-8 • Exodus 14:19-31 • Romans 14:1-12 • Matthew 18:21-35

The theme for this week is the power of loving acceptance, and as we consider the RCL texts, we can see how both receiving and giving loving acceptance is one of the foundational components of a life of faith. Psalm 114 provides the response of gratitude to the story of the exodus from Egypt, as told in the next reading, Exodus 14. The story of Israel’s deliverance from the Egyptian army shows how belief in God stems from knowing God’s acceptance, care, and concern. The passage in Matthew reveals the connection between our ability to forgive and our trust and belief that we have been forgiven for our own shortcomings. Our sermon text comes from Romans 14, which explores the way acceptance can heal us of our need to compare and offer us the freedom in Christ we were meant to enjoy.

Loving Acceptance: An Answer to Life’s Paradoxes

Romans 14:1-12 (NRSVUE)

As a general rule, we human beings don’t like paradox. We like black and white with no shades of gray. Unfortunately, much of human life involves dealing with paradox, which two business researchers, Wendy K. Smith and Marianne W. Lewis, have written a book about, called Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems. In the book, Smith and Lewis define paradox as “the interdependent oppositions that lurk beneath dilemmas and persist over time.” They cite several examples of businesses that floundered or flourished based on the way paradox was handled in their organization. The insights they developed from studying businesses who succeeded and failed can also be applied to our personal lives and even our churches. Because human beings make up churches, understanding how to handle paradox can help us improve our ability to love others and God.

Our sermon text today features Paul talking about some of the quarreling that was happening at the church in Rome. Let’s read Romans 14:1-12.

Read sermon text.

We can see that Paul was trying to help the church in Rome realize they were “sweating the small stuff,” and as a result, it generated a critical and judgmental attitude within the church. A judgmental attitude does not love others as Jesus loves us (John 13:34). Instead, the church at Rome was arguing about what was being eaten and what days were being observed (v. 1-6), and Paul was inviting them to look past their divisive, either/or thinking to the larger picture of being true to our individual consciences as led by the Holy Spirit. By understanding how to handle paradox and our tendency toward either/or thinking when it comes to problem-solving, we can improve our relationships with one another and create a loving environment in our church home.

First, let’s understand why either/or thinking doesn’t work.

  • Either/or thinking doesn’t help us solve problems. In fact, it can create downward spirals of intensification and polarization. Intensification, as defined by Smith and Lewis, means focusing solely on one side of an issue, to the point that we get “stuck,” unable to change and unwilling to hear another point of view. Hearing does not imply agreeing, it shows honor and respect for another that you are interested in them as a person, and you are desiring to hear a different point of view. Polarization happens when groups pick sides, ultimately dehumanizing the other side. Intensification and polarization keep us from reaching out to understand those who think differently than we do.

Some in the church in Rome were committed vegetarians, and others were despising them for their personal conviction (v. 1-4). We need to consider how we may have fostered judgmental attitudes within our churches over issues that involve personal conviction and personal liberty.

We also should think about how we have engaged in either/or thinking when it comes to other denominations or religions. Author Brian McClaren makes an important point in his book Faith After Doubt:

Jesus never said, when asked what is the greatest commandment: ‘You shall hold correct beliefs about the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: ‘You shall convert your neighbors who do not hold correct beliefs, and if they will not convert, you shall defeat them in a culture war.’ On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Instead, he said something truly revolutionary: first, he said to love God with our whole being. Second, and equally important (which is the meaning of ‘the second is like it’), he said to love our neighbors as ourselves (Matthew 22:36–40). (124).

Rather than persuading others to our own point of view, we’re encouraged to think how we can respond in the most loving way toward those who differ from us.

Part of this loving response requires us to approach differences inside and outside the church by embracing paradoxical differences that are part of our human existence. But how?

  • We need to learn how to ask better questions. Often when we’re faced with a problem or disagreement, we frame the question in an either/or fashion. In Smith and Lewis’s research, they found that students were able to come up with more creative widgets when they were instructed to make them both “novel and useful,” rather than the student group that was told to focus only on one aspect, either novel or useful, but not both. Rather than rushing to defend or persuade, we serve others better when we embrace curiosity and assume that others have good reasons, maybe even personal convictions, regarding their choices. Saying, “Tell me more about that,” is a good start, and learning the skill of reflective listening can help us understand the real issue behind the problem.

For example, Smith and Lewis share a story about working on their book draft in a library study room. They weren’t the only ones in the study room; there was another woman there, too. She wanted the window open, but Smith and Lewis didn’t. This looked like an either/or dilemma. To solve the problem, however, Smith and Lewis asked more questions. Why did the woman want the window open? As it turned out, the woman wanted the window open for ventilation, whereas the reason Smith and Lewis didn’t want the window open was because their papers would blow around. By understanding the reasoning behind a particular stance, they were able to come up with another solution that met the needs of everyone: leaving the study room door open offered enough ventilation for the other woman, and their papers wouldn’t blow around.

Lastly, we must understand why God thinks judgmental attitudes need to be addressed rather than personal practices or choices.

  • We are responsible for our own choices and the ways we express our personal convictions and worship of God.

Who are you to pass judgment on slaves of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand…Let all be fully convinced in their own minds. Those who observe the day, observe it for the Lord. Also those who eat, eat for the Lord…(Romans 14:4, 6, NRSVUE).

God understands our unique wiring and looks at the heart’s intent.

  • We belong to God, and our actions are held within the sacrifice of Christ.

For we do not live to ourselves, and we do not die to ourselves. If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and lived again, so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. (Romans 14:7-9, NRSVUE)

Rector and Dean of the Lutheran Theological Southern Seminary Mary Hinkle Shore writes:

Christ died and rose in order to create community across the most fundamental of differences: Jew/Greek, slave/free, dead/living! The acknowledgement that Jesus is Lord implies a critique of all other powers, even the power of our most thoughtful, considered judgment on how to honor our Lord.

Our unity within the church is not based on personal practices, but rather, on our inclusion in the Triune God relationship.

  • Loving acceptance is the answer to the paradoxes we face in human life and relationships, and our response is gratitude and praise to God.

As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11, NRSVUE)

Acknowledging the freedom in Christ we have helps us offer others the same freedom and grace to express their love for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We can trust in God’s goodness and grace, knowing that the Holy Spirit is leading each person into greater intimacy with God.

Paul demonstrates in Romans 14:1-12 that judgmental attitudes toward others’ different choices won’t promote the vision God has for humanity. Loving God and others begins when we work to build loving acceptance of people within our relationships and our church.

Call to Action: When faced with a conflict at home or work, instead of responding with a black or white answer, consider first asking God to help you see the person as he sees them – as someone created in his image. Then start by asking the question, “Tell me more,” or, “Help me to understand.” As the person explains, listen quietly, asking God for wisdom, and then practice reflective listening to see if you’ve understood them. If needed, take time to think of a loving response that can address the issue so that all involved feel heard and loved.

This is part of the new commandment, to love others as Jesus loves them.

For Reference:

McClaren, Brian. Faith After Doubt. St. Martin’s Essentials, 2021.
Smith, Wendy K., and Marianne W. Lewis. Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems. Harvard Business Review Press, 2022.
https://nextbigideaclub.com/magazine/thinking-embracing-creative-tensions-solve-toughest-problems-bookbite/36575/
https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/reflective-listening
https://www.workingpreacher.org/commentaries/revised-common-lectionary/ordinary-24/commentary-on-romans-141-12-2
https://www.workingpreacher.org/commentaries/revised-common-lectionary/ordinary-24/commentary-on-romans-141-12-5

The Art of Neighboring w/ Geordie Ziegler W3

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September 17 — Proper 19 of Ordinary Time
Romans 14:1-12, “Legalism and Liberty”

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Program Transcript


The Art of Neighboring w/ Geordie Ziegler W2

Anthony: Let’s transition onto our next passage of the month. It’s Romans 14:1-12. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 19 in Ordinary Time, which is September the 17.

Welcome the person who is weak in faith—but not in order to argue about differences of opinion. One person believes in eating everything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Those who eat must not look down on the ones who don’t, and the ones who don’t eat must not judge the ones who do, because God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servants? They stand or fall before their own Lord (and they will stand, because the Lord has the power to make them stand). One person considers some days to be more sacred than others, while another person considers all days to be the same. Each person must have their own convictions. Someone who thinks that a day is sacred, thinks that way for the Lord. Those who eat, eat for the Lord, because they thank God. And those who don’t eat, don’t eat for the Lord, and they thank the Lord too. We don’t live for ourselves and we don’t die for ourselves. If we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we belong to God. This is why Christ died and lived: so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you look down on your brother or sister? We all will stand in front of the judgment seat of God. 11 Because it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God.  12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

Geordie, I’m a recovering legalist. Not arrived at the train station yet, but I’m working on it by the Spirit.

For the first half of my life, I took very seriously what meats I ate and didn’t eat, and what days I observed and didn’t observe, based on my religious convictions. And because of my zeal for these things, I admit, I quickly and harshly judged others who didn’t honor God in the same way I did. Oh, how I had to repent.

And it’s ongoing repentance. In light of that, this passage seems to point to the liberty we have in Christ and how we should accept others, but I wonder if it goes deeper. We live for the Lord and belong to God, verse 8, and therefore we don’t live for ourselves, verse 7. How would you exegete this section of Scripture?

Geordie: I think it’s interesting that in the Greek text, the word “for” is not present. There’s actually no preposition at all, and most of the nouns are dative. And my point about mentioning that is I think Paul is pointing us toward the union with Christ, which is our life in all of this. We can’t think of ourselves apart from him.

So, I am a “we.” “Myself” is a self in relationship with Christ. There’s no me alone. So, I can’t live for myself alone because that doesn’t even make sense. And so, I live in the Lord, and I die in the Lord because I belong to the Lord. So, I think that’s at least part of one way to unpack this is to recognize our union with Christ that he’s pointing towards.

Because Paul never wants to tell us, okay, God did all this for you, and you should do all this for him. It’s like quid pro quo. Be grateful, but the Christian life is not a response to Christ. It’s a response in Christ, in his response already for us that we participate in.

And living from that perspective then, that changes who holds the gavel really. We all kind of, I think, want to hold the gavel against ourselves, against others. I was talking to someone the other day, and they were describing this sense of judgment of others against them. And it was almost like an entire stadium filled with judges and trying to please everybody. And so that that’s our default, I think, is to hold that gavel against ourselves and against others.

I’d love to hear some of your thoughts on this since you grew up with such a strong legalism. How have you come to hear this text differently since being liberated from your legalistic judgmentalism?

Anthony: I think the way I view it now is wrapped up in what you just said, in that all of my doing as a beloved child of God is within the done—what Christ has already done. And now it is a happy participation, as opposed to me showing up at the end of the day and saying, hey, God, look what I did for you. And God [says,] okay, I didn’t ask you to this; I just want you to join me in relationship and watch what I’m doing.

Much like even the historical Jesus as a rabbi—as a friend, a disciple, I just do what I see my rabbi doing. And we get to do it together, and there’s such joy in that. So that shifting from for Christ to with Christ, that simple shift is cataclysmic as it relates, and I look back to my upbringing versus where I’m at today.

Geordie: Praise God. Yeah, we have to hear that. I think every sermon, every podcast, every book—that’s really my litmus test.

Does this message throw me back on myself or does it invite me, draw me into participating in Christ and with Christ? And if it doesn’t draw me into the life that Christ is living in and for me already, then it’s not the gospel that Jesus is wanting, inviting us into in Matthew 11. He invites us to come to him and share his yoke.

He hasn’t dumped something on us that he doesn’t wear himself.

Anthony: Yeah. I appreciated what you said, Geordie, about our identity, the “we” aspect, the communitas, the community. I was talking with some folks earlier today about the Zulu philosophy (the South African language of Zulu) the philosophy of ubuntu: “I am because we are.”

And it’s a powerful way of looking at things because we’re just so individualistic in the west. And I think we would find a richer experience with God if we thought in terms of community, because there is triunity in the Godhead, right? Father, Son and Spirit. And hallelujah, praise God that we’ve been included in that Father-Son relationship by the Spirit.

Geordie: And that’s a that’s a good thing to call out as we’re going through this as many, if not most, of the references to “us” in this are plural. So, it doesn’t always come out in the translation when it says yourself. But it pretty much is always “yourselves,” talking about this mixture of, I’m responsible, but I do this in community with others. It’s not just me alone. So, it’s me with Christ, and it’s me with Christ.

Anthony: Lord, forgive us for the idol of self.

Geordie: Yes.

Anthony: It says each of us will give an account to God in verse 12. Okay. So, Geordie, is that a threat, a warning, something we should be fearful of? How do you imagine giving an account to God? And if anything, how should it inform the way that we live today?

Geordie: Yeah. I think it all depends on what I think of the character of God. So, if God is a harsh master, then yeah, I should be afraid. But if God is love, if God is triune love, Father, Son, and Spirit, then while my accounting for everything that I’ll have done, is no doubt going to be painful in some way. It’ll be the kind of pain that I might feel when I go to the dentist.

My dentist only has my good in mind, and yeah, there’s a part of me that fears giving an account to her, but I know that she’s going to bring healing to my cavities and whatever else she finds because she’s for me. She’s not against me. No matter how bad my flossing habits might be or have been, no matter how bad my sweet tooth has gotten, I know that she’s on my team. She’s on my side.

And I think this has been one of the transformations for me in terms of seeing God’s judgment, which has largely come, I think, through reading George McDonald. This recognizing that the judgment seat of God is something that all of us are going to have to stand in front of. It’s not just for non-believers to get judged.

All of us will be judged, as he says every knee will bow and every tongue will praise him. And each of us will give an account, but it’s not for the sake of punishment. It’s for the sake of healing and purifying. It’s like going to the dentist or going to the doctor and saying, look here’s some things that I recognize are not what they should be.

Thankfully doctors have tests they can run and help even discover other things that we couldn’t name or couldn’t put our finger on. And I think God does that as well. And that’s all for this, for our healing.

And so, I think it also gives us a big degree of just being able to trust God with other people that we might be apt to judge. We can trust that they are going to face God someday about that. And so, I don’t need to run around and be everybody’s voice of judgment because that is going to come for them to the extent that he’s calling me to do that with a particular person.

I need to listen for that. And that always is going to be an expression of love because that’s how God’s judgment is from him as well. It becomes both something I think for us not to fear and also a model for us of the way that we would approach judging ourselves or judging others as well. It comes from a heart and a place of love.

Anthony: Thank you for that. We always go back to the character of God revealed in Jesus Christ. And as we’ve already said on this episode, God has a restorative love, not a retributive punishment. Sin does enough of its own punishment to us, right? And thanks be to God that we can trust him.


Small Group Discussion Questions

From Speaking of Life

  • We can speculate that the first slave in the parable didn’t believe that the king would really forgive his large debt because it was too good to be true. Let’s rewrite the parable, this time assuming that he did believe that his debt was forgiven. How then do you imagine he would interact with those who owed him money?
  • The video suggests that one possible reason for the slave’s disbelief was his fear that the king’s forgiveness of his debt was too good to be true, and he knew he didn’t deserve it. Have you ever had a wonderful experience, but in the back of your mind, you felt like you didn’t deserve it? Why do you think we struggle to accept God’s grace?

From the sermon

  • Why do you think we believe, consciously or unconsciously, that everyone should think and act like we do? What are the dangers of this type of thinking?
  • How does staying curious, asking questions, and practicing reflective listening help us foster loving acceptance for those who differ from us? Have you ever employed any of these techniques in your life, and if so, what was the outcome?

Sermon for September 24, 2023 – Proper 20

Program Transcript


Speaking of Life 5044 | God’s Generosity
Greg Williams

I grew up in apple country. My grandparents and my parents owned apple orchards, and each year we would hire laborers during harvest time to pick and pack apples. We paid a fair wage, and we rarely had trouble finding laborers. Sometimes a worker had to leave early or start late for some unforeseen reason, and I sometimes saw my dad or my grandfather pay them a full day’s wage anyway. Still, I’m not sure I ever saw them do the practice we read about in the book of Matthew.

In chapter 20, Jesus tells an interesting parable to illuminate the kingdom of God. He spoke about a landowner who sought to hire workers to labor in his vineyard. Similar to when I was young, day laborers at that time would gather at a central location and wait to be hired. The landowner hired his first batch of apple-pickers early in the morning, around 6:00, and agreed to pay them a denarius, which was the typical daily wage for work like this. He went out and hired workers at 9:00, 12:00, 3:00, and 5:00. When evening came, the landowner decided to pay all of the workers, starting with the last hired. Seeing that the landowner paid those hired at 5:00 a denarius, those hired first expected to be paid more. When they also received a denarius, they began to complain. Those hired at 5:00 only worked one hour yet were paid the same wage as those who worked for 12 hours in the hot sun. In Matthew 20, we read the interesting response of the landowner in Jesus’ story: 

But he answered one of them, “I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?”
So the last will be first, and the first will be last.
Matthew 20:13-16

A lot is going on in this story. The one central lesson is that God, the landowner is good, gracious, and generous to all of his servants. This is the triune God’s nature, all the time.

The concept of human fairness is brought into question. How can a laborer who worked just one hour get the same pay as a laborer who worked 12 hours? The story is not really about labor laws and fair wages. It is about a personal God who offers grace and salvation to all.

Let me ask a strange question – “Are grace and salvation better for me than they are for you?” There are no degrees of separation, and Jesus’ teachings always deflate the notion of a competition or contest.

The landowner has space and rewards for all. As Jesus assured his followers, “In my house are many mansions.”

I’m Greg Williams, Speaking of Life.

Psalm 105:1-6, 37-45 • Exodus 16:2-15 • Philippians 1:21-30 • Matthew 20:1-16

As we continue in Ordinary Time, a time of focusing on how we can participate in the work Jesus is doing in the world, it is important for believers to acknowledge that we can do nothing apart from Christ himself. This week’s theme is Jesus is life. The psalmist reminds us to be grateful to God by recounting the ways in which he kept Israel alive in the desert. Similarly, the Exodus passage tells the story of how God gave miraculous manna and quails to the Israelites for food. In Philippians, Paul expressed his preference to give up his life if it meant being completely with Christ. Finally, in Matthew, Jesus told a parable to illustrate how believers should gratefully receive the salvation we have in Christ.

Jesus is Life

Philippians 1:21-30

When college professor, Morrie Schwartz, was terminally diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS or Lou Gehrig’s disease), he decided that he would not fade away quietly. Rather, he decided to use his experience of dying to ponder the meaning of life. Upon hearing of Schwartz’ diagnosis, former student and author and journalist, Mitch Albom, rushed to see his favorite professor. What started as a one-time visit turned into a weekly conversation until Schwartz’ passing in 1995. The fruit of those discussions became a best-selling book titled, Tuesdays with Morrie: An Old Man, a Young Man, and Life’s Greatest Lesson. In the book, Albom recalls a conversation he had with Schwartz:

“The truth is, Mitch,” he said, “once you learn how to die, you learn how to live.”

I nodded.

“I’m going to say it again,” he said. “Once you learn how to die, you learn how to live.” He smiled, and I realized what he was doing. He was making sure I absorbed this point, without embarrassing me by asking. It was part of what made him a good teacher.

Did you think much about death before you got sick? I asked.

“No.” Morrie smiled…

But everyone knows someone who has died,” I said. “Why is it so hard to think about dying?

“Because,” Morrie continued, “most of us all walk around as if we’re sleepwalking. We really don’t experience the world fully, because we’re half-asleep, doing things we automatically think we have to do.”

And facing death changes all that?

“Oh, yes. You strip away all the stuff and you focus on the essentials. When you realize you are going to die, you see everything much differently.”

He sighed. “Learn how to die, and you learn how to live.”[1]

These are wise words. Death is an uncomfortable topic for most of us. None of us enjoys contemplating our own mortality. Conversations about death can painfully remind us of loved ones we have lost. However, facing the reality that we are finite can give us perspective. Knowing that we are going to die can give us insight on how we should be living.

Paul seemed to have this in mind when he wrote this section of his letter to the church in Philippi:

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me. Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit, striving together as one for the faith of the gospel without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved — and that by God. For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him, since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have. (Philippians 1:21-30 NIV)

Paul was not suicidal. Perhaps he was a bit world weary, but another emotion drove his words. More than anything else he was in awe of the love of Christ and loved Jesus in return. He desired deeper and deeper communion with Christ and realized he was limited in his relationship with Jesus in this life. He was hindered by his own natural orientation away from God and longed for the day when he would be freed from his sinful human nature. Paul reasoned that if dying meant complete and unhindered oneness with Jesus, then it would be better to die.

It was as Paul contemplated which he preferred, living or dying, that he urged the believers in Philippi to “conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.” In other words, Paul was saying, “Since we are alive, we should live for Christ to the fullest extent.” To the apostle, “life” and “Christ” were synonyms and to follow Christ was to truly live (Colossians 3:4). I believe Paul would have agreed with Morrie Schwartz’ observation that most people do not fully experience life. To Paul, if Christ was not the reason behind one’s thoughts and actions, then a person would experience something inferior to true life. Even Christians, if we are not careful, can find ourselves living a kind of half-life. So, Paul was allowing the reality of death to teach him how to live, and he passed on this wisdom to the Philippian church and to us.

Before you get concerned, I am not encouraging some kind of morbid fascination with death. On the contrary, I am advocating for us to do a lot more thinking about how we live. Think for a moment. If you were told a coworker was going to enter into a personal relationship with Jesus in two years, how would you start treating that coworker? Contrast that to being told you only had one full day left to live. How would you spend the day? With family and friends? Doing something you love doing, or always wanted to do. I am sure many of us would spend some time talking to God, thanking him for the gift of life. Whatever things warranted our attention on our most precious day should be what gets the priority every day. The most important things should get our attention and we should not give our focus to things that will fade away.

Morrie Schwartz said, “Learn how to die, and you learn how to live.” When Paul thought about his death all he saw was Jesus. He reasoned by the Spirit that if Jesus was his eternity, then Jesus should also be his focus in this life. In fact, Jesus is life. Paul argued that the persecution the Philippians suffered should not prevent them from orienting their lives around Christ. It would have been understandable for the believers in Philippi to try to fade into the crowd. Their belief in Christ brought them a lot of trouble, so why not just worship Jesus secretly? Why not just go along with everyone else? The temptation must have been so strong to hide their relationship with Jesus or maybe even try to forget about it altogether. This is why Paul encouraged his audience to “stand firm in the one Spirit.” One way or another, persecution will come to an end. But Jesus is life, and he is forever.

Unlike the believers in Philippi, most of us are not facing persecution. Let’s never forget that many of our brothers and sisters around the world are facing persecution. Our Western culture disrupts our relationship with God in other ways. We live in a fast-moving, distraction-filled society. I can have almost anything delivered to my home within two days. Nearly all accumulated human knowledge is literally at my fingertips. All I need is a computer hooked up to the internet and I can know almost anything instantly. I have thousands of TV shows and movies I can watch, or I can listen to a podcast on any topic of my choosing. In our culture, it almost seems shameful to not be overwhelmingly busy and over-informed.

This way of being is at odds with the ways of God. The Lord invites his followers to slow down and appreciate the small miracles that fill every day. We are encouraged to sit and ponder the things that Jesus said and did, giving preference to his wisdom over earthly knowledge. Jesus expects his followers to prioritize people over productivity and make time every day for relationships. Jesus is life and following him will cause us to live differently.

I have to admit that there was a time in my life when I feared living differently. I did not want to stand out. When I read this passage in Philippians, it felt extreme. I did not want to suffer for Christ. I knew that Christ was my life, but I was content to live a half-life. I only wanted to resemble Jesus when I was around other Christians. In time, I realized that I was seeing things in the wrong way. In his letter to the Philippians, Paul teaches that “standing firm” is not something we do individually. We do not “conduct [our]selves in a manner worthy of the gospel” by ourselves. It is the life of the Christian faith community, not any individual Christian, that testifies to our worthiness. Of course, our individual conduct matters. However, it is by living in a loving Christ-centered community that we best experience life in Jesus.

Jesus is life, and the life he brings is enjoyable. Following Christ does not mean that we will not have hard times. In fact, Jesus promises that we will face life challenges. However, Jesus is enjoyable. We follow Christ by eating in each other’s homes and helping those in need. We follow Christ by using the gifts and talents given to us by the Spirit to make our world better. We follow Christ by singing praises and worshiping God with our very lives. We follow Christ by loving our family and friends and being a good neighbor. We follow Christ by meditating on his life-giving word in times of restful and refreshing silence. We follow Christ by making new friends and sharing the love of God with them. We follow Christ in so many ways; all of them give us things we deeply want and need. Things like love, joy, peace, and all the other fruits of the Spirit. This is the life that Paul saw, and he invited his Christian audience to embrace it. The apostle was not being morbid in his contemplation of death. Rather, he was calling his audience’s attention to the most important things — the riches that can only be found in Jesus.

Learn how to die, and you learn how to live. When compared to what our society considers life, our life in Christ is far superior. We lose nothing by following his way. Rather, we gain our true purpose and identity in him. So, let us do all we can to live for Christ. Let us set aside the things that distract and dissipate to make more room for Jesus to live in and through us. Making room for Christ is not something we only do by ourselves. Rather, we make room for God by doing the enjoyable, life-giving, and meaningful practices God asks us to do in a loving community of faith. Jesus is life, and it is a life worth living.

[1] Albom, Mitch. Tuesdays with Morrie: An Old Man, a Young Man, and Lifes Greatest Lesson. New York, NY: Doubleday, 1997. (pp 82-83)

The Art of Neighboring w/ Geordie Ziegler W4

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September 24 — Proper 20 of Ordinary Time
Philippians 1:21-30, “Live Worthy of the Gospel”

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Program Transcript


The Art of Neighboring w/ Geordie Ziegler W4

Anthony: So, we move on to our final passage of the month. It is Philippians 1:21-30 Philippians, of course, is known as the Epistle of Joy. You mentioned joy earlier. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 20 in Ordinary Time, which falls on September 24.

Geordie, read it for us, please.

Geordie: Sure.

22Because for me, living serves Christ and dying is even better. 22 If I continue to live in this world, I get results from my work. 23 But I don’t know what I prefer. I’m torn between the two because I want to leave this life and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 However, it’s more important for me to stay in this world for your sake. 25 I’m sure of this: I will stay alive and remain with all of you to help your progress and the joy of your faith, 26 and to increase your pride in Christ Jesus through my presence when I visit you again. 27 Most important, live together in a manner worthy of Christ’s gospel. Do this, whether I come and see you or I’m absent and hear about you. Do this so that you stand firm, united in one spirit and mind as you struggle together to remain faithful to the gospel. 28 That way, you won’t be afraid of anything your enemies do. Your faithfulness and courage are a sign of their coming destruction and your salvation, which is from God. 29 God has generously granted you the privilege, not only of believing in Christ but also of suffering for Christ’s sake. 30 You are having the same struggle that you saw me face and now hear that I’m still facing.

Anthony: So, Paul challenges us to live together in a manner worthy of Christ’s gospel, verse 27. And I see this as a challenge because many Christians have an individualistic moralism. It goes to something like this.

Be a good person. Stay in your lane. Have a nice house and an enclave, right? That’s the goal. And by the way, we know none of those things are inherently wrong, but I wonder if the apostle is pointing to Christian community that is far more robust and other-centered than we often think about. What’s say you?

Geordie: Yes. Yeah, it’s interesting that phrase about worthy of the gospel. It’s basically the same kind of language that he used in Ephesians where he where the transition takes place in Ephesians from the first three chapters to the last three.

And it’s this word axios or—I can’t quite say it—axios. And we translate it “worthily, but it’s this image of an axis with kind of weight on one side and weight on the other. And the idea is that everything in the gospel, everything of who Christ is and what he’s done, this kingdom that he has created and that we are invited into—all of that is to be lived out, is to be worked out.

And that’s the challenge. That’s the journey of the Christian life is that everything gets to be lived. I remember asking Eugene Peterson this question in class once about experience. Because Eugene grew up kind of Pentecostal and then he became Presbyterian, which seems like two extremes from the Holy Rollers to the frozen chosen. But I remember I asked him, so how do we, or are we to experience every part of the Bible or every part of our theology? Or is there some of it that’s just in our head? And he said everything is to be experienced.

And sometimes, yes, thinking is a kind of experience. But it’s not meant to be abstract. It’s meant to be integrated. And Paul wants them to live the way that he has lived and he’s showing them his priority of the gospel over everything else and inviting them to follow his example. So, his example is other-centered love, which he got from Christ himself, which then leads to where he heads when he starts talking about suffering.

Anthony: Speaking of that, God has generously granted you the privilege of suffering for Christ’s sake. Come on, Geordie. If the average person made a list of privileges in their life, you’re not going to find suffering on that list.

But how have you experienced in your own personal journey that suffering can be viewed as grace? And what encouragement would you give to someone listening who is suffering at this very hour?

Geordie: This is this is such a huge topic, but I think there are some angles on it that can really help us and redeem this for us.

One interesting thing is there’s an early Christian text called the Epistle of Barnabas and in that he describes the human being as earth that suffers. And there’s something just basically true about that. And part of suffering means that there is a neediness that we have when we suffer.

There’s a dependency. Suffering creates a dependency for God, a dependency for God’s people, a need for others to come alongside us, a need for mercy and grace. Suffering, in a way, becomes almost an open space where grace can rush in. And if we don’t have any kind of suffering in our lives, I think, we don’t grow. Growth and suffering really are hand in hand realities.

Spring only comes because winter happened. (I guess, unless you live in Florida. And then I don’t know what to say about that.) But there’s something about our human nature where there’s a kind of suffering that is part of our design, a part of our neediness.

Now he’s talking about suffering for Christ’s sake. And that’s the life that Paul has lived; it’s had lots of suffering. It’s had suffering of rejection, suffering of abuse from others. There’re traumas that he’s experienced because of that.

Some of those because of his faith, some of those because of just life, I’m sure. And I think when we remember first that in all of those, grace can rush in, in those, that can be the thing that calls us to just—makes us aware of our neediness more.

When I went through a really difficult time about four years back and I was talking to Baxter Krueger about it. And his response to me was funny because he [says,] “Geordie, this is probably the best thing that ever happened to you because now your theology has to actually make a difference. If it doesn’t, then you need a new theology.” (I can’t do a southern accent. Sorry about that.)

But the reality is God is self-giving. This is Brad Jersak’s description, which I love, self-giving, co-suffering, radically forgiving love. And there’s a sense in which to be love means you will suffer. There is no love that does not also include suffering. And sometimes people just decide, okay, I’m not going to love.

I was talking to somebody whose dog was going to be dying probably soon, and they just said I don’t think we want another dog because the pain of losing them is too much. And I get that. Sometimes we have to make those choices, but any kind of love is always going to involve suffering because there’s going to be loss and there’s going to be hurt. But what it also means is suffering is not necessarily bad. It’s not automatically bad. Suffering can actually be a way that love gets deepened, where intimacy grows to a place that it never could have otherwise.

And so, I think Paul is not just saying stupid things when he says God has generously granted you the privilege of suffering for Christ’s sake. That is genuine for him. Now, all the hearers may have had to struggle with that a little bit, but for Paul, I think, it’s his suffering that made the love and intimacy that he knows in Christ so much deeper.

And he knows that, and he wants that for his people.

Anthony: Yeah. It reminds me just thinking of my own journey, Geordie, that in my walk with Christ, I have grown and matured in him mostly when I’m going through the valley of the shadow of death. It’s in times of suffering and heartache; it’s not in the fluff of life.

And I would rather hang out in the fluff of life. But I can look back and go, thank you, Lord. Thank you. I learned something of your goodness. And I trust you more today than I did then as a result of it. Hallelujah. Praise God.

Geordie: I just say that so much of the work of a spiritual director is helping somebody to just press into the suffering in prayer and to learn how to receive God’s grace and mercy in the midst of it, whatever it is.

Because often our initial response to suffering is not happy or pretty. And so sometimes we do need somebody to help us to know how to turn and face God in the midst of it. Instead of turning away or spiraling in. And so that’s part of the work that I love doing with Imago Christi, with leaders.

And I love that I have some people that do that for me, which I need.

Anthony: Amen and amen. And I appreciate the work of spiritual direction and formation because it gives a holistic picture of things. Like one of the things I’ve noticed recently, and maybe I’ve just started paying attention, sometimes in Christian circles, there’s this toxic positivity that God loves me, so everything’s got to be happy, happy, joy, joy, rainbows, and ponies.

But the Bible has a book called Lamentations. And I read the book of Psalms and it’s like a yo-yo. Go God, one Psalm, the next Psalm, where are you, God, and when are you going to rescue me? And so, I just want to remind folks, especially if you find yourself in the midst of suffering now, that lament gives voice to what hurts, but hope gives voice to what heals. And the hope of God never disappoints us, never abandons us, never leaves us at the altar. Hallelujah. Praise God.

Thank you so much Geordie, for being with us staying up after a long shift of chaplaincy work. We so appreciate you. You’re a beloved child of the living God.

And I want to thank the people that make this happen, Reuel Enerio, our producer, my wife, Elizabeth Mullins, who transcribes these podcasts. So you can find verbatim what Geordie said, because I know you want to go back and re-listen to what he had to offer here today.

But thank you so much for being with us and let me remind everyone that Jesus Christ is the inerrant and infallible word of God. Keep leaning into him and watch what will happen.

Geordie, as is our tradition with Gospel Reverb, we pray to close out the conversation and we’d love for you to pray for and with us.

Geordie: I would love to. Yes.

Lord, we give you thanks and praise, for you are love. You are other-centered co-suffering, radically forgiving mercy and love and grace.

And Lord we know we don’t have the strength in us to be that or do that. And that’s part of the good news is that you are all those things. And so, we thank you, God, that you don’t tell us to do something that you aren’t. But that all that you call us to be clothed in is just the clothes that you already wear.

And Father, Jesus, would you share with us your clothing share with us, your relationship with the Father through the Spirit. Help us to see what you see when you look into the Father’s eyes, and to know what you know, and to feel what you feel, and to love what you love, so that we can be your people living as children in the Father’s Kingdom in this world.

In Jesus name we pray. Amen.


Small Group Discussion Questions

From Speaking of Life

  • Why do you think we often compare ourselves to others, even in the church?
  • Why do you think it is so tempting to try to earn salvation?

From the sermon

  • If you only had one more day to live, what are some things you would do?
  • Do you find your life with Christ enjoyable? Why or why not?
  • What are some things you can do to make more room for God in your life?