Story of Love: Kansas City w/ Terry McDonald & Barbara Leatherman

Welcome to the GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience. Here are your hosts, Cara Garrity and Charissa Panuve.

Cara: Welcome all to today’s episode of GC Podcast. I’m here once again with my co-host, Charissa Panuve.

Welcome, Charissa. It’s good to have you here with us today.

Charissa: Hi everyone. It’s great to be back joining in on another episode. I’m super excited.

Cara: Yes. And one of the most special things to me about this season is the emphasis on Jesus being with us, his solidarity with humanity, Emmanuel, God with us.

I’m wondering, Charissa, what about this season of Advent is really meaningful to you?

Charissa: Yes. Amen to that.

I love the Advent season and the fact that I somehow managed to find five or 10 kilos during this season, I think is pretty special. But other than that, the fellowship and the togetherness that this time brings not only for the churches but within our families, I think is a very special time.

And to remember this season and reflect on our Savior when he first came into the world, in the flesh and what that led to, and sharing that with one another, I think is a beautiful thing to always look forward to about this season.

Cara: Mm. Yeah, that relationship and fellowship, that’s a wonderful thing. Thank you, Charissa, for sharing that.

And in today’s episode, speaking of, of relationships and fellowship, we’re going to hear from Barbara and Terry who are the Love Avenue champion and pastor at GC South Kansas City USA, about their journey in the Love Avenue. Before we get into that interview, I’m wondering what has been a formative movement of your own journey in the Love Avenue ministry of mission and witness?

Charissa: Ooh. Personally, I enjoy doing things hands-on, so I enjoy working with the youth leaders back home (when I am home, that is) and helping with the outreach in the community. For me, prior to the introduction of this Team Based—Pastor Led and the different Avenues that it broke down into, particularly Love Avenue ministry outreach was not something that was as commonly practiced with the youth as it is now.

So, getting started on that and working towards sharing the love beyond the church walls was such an experience and a blessing. And it really did open our eyes to the fact that you could witness and share the love of Christ in practically anything. We would do things for sports days that were open to all or cleaning up yards for different people, just to share our time and love with those around us and reflect Jesus in what we do.

Cara: Amen. And one of the things that really strikes me about your experience is the inclusion of youth in the ministry of the Love Avenue. I really love to hear that. That’s excellent. And I praise God for that part of your own journey in his ministry.

Why don’t we go ahead and hear what God is doing in GC South Kansas City, USA?

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Cara: Hello friends and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches. I’m your host Cara Garrity. And today I am so, blessed to interview Terry McDonald and Barbara Leatherman. Terry is pastor of Grace Communion South Kansas City, and Barbara is Love Avenue champion there.

Barbara and Terry, thank you so, much for joining the pod with us today. It’s so, good to have you.

Barbara: Thank you for having us.

Terry: It’s so, good to be here.

Cara: Yes, of course. It’s my pleasure. And today I’m really excited because you’ll be sharing a little bit about your journey in the Love Avenue as a testimony or a real-life storytelling of what it looks like when we put all of what we’ve been learning about the Ministry of the Love Avenue, put flesh to it.

And so, I would love if you could just start us off, Barbara, with telling us a little bit about the Outside the Walls event that you all just had this summer.

Barbara: We had a neighborhood block party. We had it on June the 25th. It was one of the hottest days of the summer so, far. And we enjoyed it very much, but we worked really hard, and we were really tired.

But it was a great event. We met at a local high school at their ball field. So, it was very visible to everybody around. We had about 23 families join us for that. And we had a really good time. We had a DJ that played music and kept us going. And we had about 15 or so, games for the people that came to play.

We had prizes and treats and we had a face painting table and some bouncy houses for the children. We had some food trucks come in, which was really wonderful. So, that’s an overview of what we did.

Terry: Yeah, it was a really fun event, like Barbara said, in spite of the fact that it was really hot. I think the heat index got up to a hundred something degrees.

When we first started, the skies were overcast, so, it was nice to be able to set things up, but we could feel the heat beginning to rise. And me personally, I began to have some concerns, obviously. Oh, there’s a lot of heat here. Is there going to be anybody going to show up?

But like she said, we had about 23 families about a hundred people together show up and it was just a really great time to be able to come together as a team and just be able to share the love of Christ with them. So, it was a great.

Cara: Yeah, that sounds like a wonderful event.

I would go to something like that. And I’m wondering what did you see God doing concerning that gathering?

Barbara: God was working on our hearts in South Kansas City, and we saw God drawing us together, the Love Avenue team and the congregation. He was drawing us together showing us how the process worked and helping us to come together for a common goal.

I think he was shaping us for the things that are coming ahead for our congregation. And teaching us to trust him because a lot of times we try to do things on our own. But he was showing us how to trust him at this time, and I saw him open doors.

In the very beginning, he opened up this high school ball field to us. We didn’t know what they were going to require or anything. But right away, they agreed to let us use it. And they said, because we were doing it for the community, they didn’t charge us anything. We felt like that was a blessing from God.

And then they let us know after a time that we could use their trash facilities and their dumpsters, so, we didn’t have to go to the city and purchase those things. And that saved us about, I’d say $700 close to that. These were just a few things that I saw as blessings.

Terry: Yeah. It was really interesting that during this entire planning process, when we first got the call from our regional pastor, Mike Rasmussen, and he was sharing with us that we were being called to do an Outside the Walls event.

And obviously when that came to the forefront, there was this expectation in our own hearts (maybe individually, I know, certainly in mine) that this was supposed to be some outlandish, outrageous, huge, crazy-looking event. And I learned that I need to listen to my team a little bit more. (We’ll talk about that a little bit later.)

But I really saw God bringing us together to show us what he was doing in our neighborhood. And what I mean by that is, a lot of times it might be misunderstood that an Outside the Walls event is for the neighborhood or for the community that you’re serving. And while part of that is true, it’s really about calling the church from inside, “Come out of the building and find the spaces and look for the spaces and see the spaces where Jesus is working.”

And we knew from the beginning that this was going to be an all-hands-on-deck type of thing. It was almost like the first four or five months, we were doing a lot of vision casting, Barbara and I, about what this was going to look, like what it should be. And, for the first couple of months after Mike mentioned it to us, we had no idea what this was going to look like.

We were just all over the place trying to figure out what are we supposed to be doing? And, so, Barbara had the idea – we were doing game days in the park where we just take a couple of games out to a local park, maybe about a mile away from where we meet. And we set them up and the kids that were there on the playground or anybody else that was in the park, they’d come over and play some games with us. And they’d win prizes and we’d be able to talk to them and connect with them in that way.

And so, Barbara said, why don’t we just expand that a little bit. And when I hear the word expand, I need to tone back a little bit because I get crazy with the word expand. My voice is that of Creative, Connector [GiANT Worldwide 5 Voices.] So, the creative part of me really came out in volumes. But we knew that’s what that was going to be.

But we recognized at this time that God was giving us an opportunity to live out the theme that GCI has proclaimed this year: being compelled by love as well as our local focus of being intentional in exercising that love. God gave us the opportunity to do that, and it was a great time.

It was a great lesson for all of us about what that means.

Cara: Yeah. Thank you both for sharing that. And I love what you just shared, Terry, that part of the idea is get outside of the walls of the church building, because when you do that, what you see is that God is doing a lot! Jesus is actually in our midst.

And Barbara, from what you shared there, you guys experienced that in really tangible ways. That he’s building relationships within the community, within your neighborhood, that are beneficial. Allowing you guys to come into a space and connect with people opening those doors. And I think that’s an incredible thing to celebrate.

And so, we do want to celebrate that alongside you all, that God is doing a good thing and that you all have taken the steps to be “sent” people that are going to say, Yeah, God, we’ll walk outside the walls of the church because we know that you’re there too.

So, is there anything else that you’re celebrating on the other side of this event that you’ve hosted this summer?

Barbara: That’s a good question, Cara. I celebrated that the event came together and that it worked well because when we started, we didn’t know how this thing was going to work out, and I celebrated the families that God brought and that we actually survived the heat for such a long event.

I celebrated something else. Our members – a lot of our members and we’re not a great big church – but a lot of them are in advanced ages, I’d say, in the seventies, eighties. And they haven’t done a lot of this outside kind of thing. And they themselves became willing to come out and enjoy the event even for a time.

And I would have to say that our church members have been fairly stuck in their traditional ways. So, I was celebrating the fact that they were starting to get the vision and that they were willing to come out and celebrate with us.

Yes. So, that’s some of what I found to celebrate.

Terry: Yes. I echo that Cara, I echo that.

It was really refreshing to literally see people stepping outside of the walls. And when I say stepping outside of the walls, I’m not talking about stepping outside of the walls of the church building but stepping out of the walls of their own heart. Outside the walls of their own heart and saying, maybe God is doing something and if I stay stuck in my ways of thinking or I stay stuck in my space, perhaps I’m going to be missing out on seeing a chance for him to really open me up to see what he’s doing.

And it was a very trying process, putting this entire event together. And again, I take a lot of responsibility for that because of my Creative voice. But it was a trying process, us trying to organize all these big things and looking at the size of our team.

And, living in those realms of doubt, are we doing too much? Are we not following God’s direction? Are we doing something that we want to do and putting God’s name on it? (That’s a scary thing to do.) But what we got to the point of discovering is that we were recognizing that we were small, but we could be mighty if we just followed God’s direction and surrendered to his will.

And another thing I discovered was through the trials and frustrations and all the misunderstandings that came throughout this flow – Barbara keeps preaching to me that we need to improve communication. And she’s absolutely right. But what I discovered is that we started building strong relational bonds between each other through this process.

And it was really healthy and great because, I think that really helps to sell a vision when you are doing vision casting because people then begin to trust the direction that you’re leading. And they will feel safe and secure, which is two things that humans love: safety and security.

And in doing that and seeing it all come together at the end; we all recognized, we really can trust each other if we surrender to the will of God.

Cara: That is absolutely worth celebrating, the transformation of people that you both witnessed, including yourselves. Because as we participate in Jesus’ present ministry, his mission, the activities that he’s up to, or what we might call, the ministries of the Love Avenue, man, we’re transformed because we’re participating in what he’s doing in our midst.

That’s incredible.

And so, I’d love to ask you, Barbara, it sounds like there was a lot going on and a lot of things that, that you all learned. What last couple of things do you want to share with our listening audience that you learned that you’ll definitely carry forward with you?

Barbara: That is interesting that you asked that, and Terry touched on something about our voices. And I learned personally that as his voice was that of a Creative, Connector. Mine was that of a Nurture or Guardian. So, while it was good to learn what our voices were, we came to see that they were very different.

I learned that we don’t always understand what each other is saying or thinking because we don’t recognize the different voices. So, we tended to make assumptions about certain things, and we stepped on each other’s toes a little bit. But we learned that our voices are not enemies and that they’re all valuable and necessary, to accomplish the whole purpose.

And like Terry said, we have to learn to listen to each other and see the different perspectives and try to make decisions together and not try to do it on our own. We learned a lot about teamwork, and we learned – I think Terry mentioned this – we learned that our events don’t have to be great big and huge to be effective and to love our neighbors.

We can scale them back and we can work on a little different level. And next time I think we’re going to make some things more streamlined. And one thing I noticed that our event, because it was in a ball field, we were very spread out because it was a big area. And I think if we do this again, or even in other events that we do, that we want to bring our activities closer together so, that we can fellowship a little better with our guests.

And we also, learned that we had originally planned on doing this for four hours and somehow it turned into a six-hour event, and it was too hot for that. Plus, really I think we would’ve been able to accomplish our goal in a shorter duration, have more events for shorter periods. So, I think we learned a lot about handling an event and all the things that go into it.

So, that’s some of the things that I felt were important to learn.

Cara: Yes, learning how to send people home, Barbara, is critical!

But I also really appreciate what you said about the voices and teamwork because, GC podcast is about best ministry practices in GCI, and in GCI, we believe in Team Based ministry.

And so, what you’ve talked about, that’s critical across all of our expressions of ministry: Love Avenue, Faith, Hope, whatever the teams, sub-teams in those Avenues. And so, thank you for bringing that insight.

Terry, is there anything that you would add? Key pieces of learning that you’re going to bring forward with you?

Terry: Oh, yes, absolutely. I’m glad you asked this question because it is a huge thing. I may have touched on this a little bit already, but I’ve learned that with Creative, Connectors, being a bull in a china shop only works if there’s no china in the shop. Okay. You trying to run through everything and get everybody to follow your direction and all of that good stuff, and you’ve got to listen to the hearts of your team sometimes – and I’m not speaking for every pastor – but there are some of us out there who sometimes get in that mode where we know everything that needs to be done.

And sometimes we’ll even try to do it all ourselves, but we’ve got to listen to the hearts of our team. I’ve had some experience in putting certain events together large and small, but everyone on my team did not have that same experience. And Barbara alluded to that when she was talking about our voices and I in this planning session.

I forgot to listen to those voices because I was so adamant about making sure that this was a success and perfect. And I needed to listen to their hearts, and I needed to listen to their voice. And casting a vision is so important to help others see from their perspective how they can participate in engaging the call that we’re being called to.

And if you’re too busy only listening to your voice and doing what you want to do, not only are you going to set up a situation where they’re not going to be able to hear what the Lord is telling them, but they will also not feel included, not feel welcomed, not feel wanted into the situation. And learning that everyone has a different voice and not only learning that they have a different voice, but recognizing that those voices, those different voices are inside of me as well. I needed to listen to those voices inside of me and praising God, that as we got closer to the actual event happening, that I began to recognize that and see that. See what I was doing was actually detrimental, not intentionally, but detrimental to what God was trying to do with us.

We are all relational beings, and I feel God created us that way so that we can discover the joy of building those symbiotic relationships with each other and with Jesus. And I learned that listening intently to the other truly is an act of love and going forward.

I communicated that with Barbara, that she is so wise in some of the things that she brings forth and how she helps me to see things in a different light that I recognize I need to listen to my Love Avenue champion a little bit more. And I won’t stress myself out so much if I start keeping things a little simpler. So, that’s what I learned.

Cara: Thank you, Terry. I really appreciate you sharing that. Again, highlighting the importance of team based ministry.

And not only that, one of the things that I think of when you share that, is putting together, organizing, planning, whatever you want to call it, activities within the Love Avenue, it’s more than about just that activity. When you do things the way that you’re talking about, where you’re creating space and listening to people and figuring out how is God calling each person to participate in what he’s doing, that’s actually discipleship and an opportunity for discipleship, not just event planning.

And so, then it’s ministry for all of us to be able to participate in, which is so important for us as leaders to allow these spaces to be areas of disciple-making. Because as a church, that’s what we are called to. And so, thank you for sharing that because it is easy, I think, for us to default to just activity making instead of disciple-making.

Yeah. And so, that’s really critical. So, I appreciate you both and I’m so thankful for what God did through this event in your neighborhood and for y’all’s willingness to step out and try something new, get outside those walls. And so, we’re celebrating with you.

We’re praising God right alongside you. And now I want to back up just a little bit because you’ve already alluded to this a little bit. It’s been a whole journey for you all as a gathering church community, even getting to the point of this outside the walls event and coming out of this Outside the Walls event.

And so, I’d love to just hear a little bit more about your guys’ personal, as Terry and Barbara, and then collective, as Grace Community South Kansas City’s journey in the ministry of the Love Avenue.

And so, where did you all start in your understanding and participation in the Love Avenue?

Barbara: That’s a really good question, Cara.

Terry: Yes, it is!

Barbara: I’m sure we have different perspectives on that. Personally, I’ll talk from my standpoint. I had been serving for a number of years with the elderly and the shut-ins. So, I developed a lot of compassion for people and empathy. And then I started working with the local schools and worked in those, and I felt like I fit in well with the Love Avenue.

But as I got involved in it a little bit more, I soon learned that there was a lot more involved than that. And I was challenged quite a bit. I had to put together a team and that was challenging.

And at times, I would feel like – because we have a small congregation – I would feel like, who can I get on my team? Nobody really wants to go out and do things — because I didn’t see that. And so, it was challenging to listen to other people and hear what they were thinking. And that way, I could put together a team with those people with their different thoughts and ideas. And it was challenging for me to learn how to lead others and how to inspire them.

I think sometimes when we look at something – in this regard, it was the Love Avenue champion – and I’m thinking, I’m not a champion. What does that mean?  And so, it challenged me to think that what it means is that I have the challenge of leading other people and learning about them and letting them tell their ideas.

It was a lot of different things and even I found out that in the greater congregation, that I could actually say or do things that would stir them and help them to see the vision of the Outside the Walls. That it wasn’t just another activity, it was something that we could learn more about our greater neighborhood and about what other people need and open our doors to some different kinds of things.

It’s been it’s been a great challenge and to learn and understand the concepts involved with the Love Avenue. So, that’s from my perspective, what I have personally learned.

Cara: Thanks, Barbara. Terry, what about you?

Terry: Yeah, when the introduction of the Avenues had first come about again, my initial mindset was, Oh, here we go with another program, and here we go with another ministry thing to do.

And I just said – I sit back sometime, just say, Okay, I’m going to give it a chance. I’m going to give it a chance and see exactly what it was talking about. But I thought this was just some other program that was getting started to try and recruit people into GCI. But I really knew better, because we know who our leadership is. We know how we connect with people.

And I had to give it a chance. And then I began to recognize that especially with the Love Avenue, that this was something special that Jesus was doing. I’ve come to recognize that, as I look at the landscape of the body of Christ, not just in GCI, but many other churches, I have friends in other churches that seem to be latching on to things like what we’re doing in the Love Avenue in GCI.

And, as far as participating in the Love Avenue, I did fall into the trap of thinking there would be extra demands, quotas of gathering people. And I don’t know where this wrong thinking came from, but I just said to myself, I just need to sit back and see what the Lord is doing and just listen to those who are leading and guiding me and understand what the Lord is doing.

And we begin to see and understand the connections that Jesus was making. Not only using the Love Avenue to connect with our neighborhoods, but also the connections that he was making with the Hope and Faith Avenues, with the Love Avenue. Just making that a perichoretic relationship between the three Avenues to really engage the hearts of those who Jesus loves.

And so, what I began to recognize about the Love Avenue was as I read the story of the life of Jesus and how he loved people and how he engaged people, that was exactly what we were being taught to do in the Love Avenue. And being able to actually walk in his footsteps, engaging with people, it also showed us that Jesus isn’t just in the building with us on Sunday mornings, that he is calling us out into spaces of worship with him.

The Holy Spirit is calling us out in the spaces of worship, that the worship doesn’t just take place on Sunday morning. It does take place on Sunday morning, but not just there. Those areas of worship are when we go out and we connect with people and build relationships with them and get involved in their lives and invite them into our own lives and connect and just build those healthy, loving relationships just like Jesus did when he walked that land with his disciple.

That was what I eventually came to recognize. And I tell you what, it is going to be hard for me to even think about letting the Love Avenue go. And I’m glad it’s here to stay. I’m glad it is a lifestyle change for our denomination. But again, like I said before, I’m beginning to see evidence of it being a lifestyle change outside of our denomination for the body of Christ as a whole as people begin to recognize how Jesus walked this earth and how he loved people. And that relationship is at the heart of everything that God does. That’s what he reconciled us back into – right relationship with him because he wants to enjoy us and wants us to enjoy him. And we can see that in those spaces where we connect with people and enjoy each other there.

Cara: So, you’re telling me that neither of you guys jumped right in 100%, feeling confident and perfection toward the Love Avenue?

Terry: Oh, no. No way. No way.

Cara: No. I think that’s a beautiful thing and I think it’s important to name that, that it is a journey and it’s a journey of growth and learning. And I appreciate y’all sharing that.

Because we do start somewhere and we don’t have to start at the finished goal or finish line, whatever that looks like. We don’t even have a finish line in the Love Avenue because what we’re doing is just staying in step with the Spirit, as he shows us. So, I really appreciate y’all sharing that.

And I’m wondering too, y’all shared personally how you’ve grown and in the Love Avenue, what did that look like for you to grow and learn together as a church community in the Love Avenue?

Terry: Cara, that is still a work in progress. Okay? Because you’ve got to think of the storied history of our denomination. There’s so much baggage that people are still carrying.

And with all these new ways of engaging relationship and learning how Jesus did it, is calling us to drop some of that baggage, to let it go. And that requires the changing of hearts. And we know that the changing of hearts is a work of the Holy Spirit. We know that he does that well and that is his job.

One of the things that Mike always tells me is that when you love people, love them well, and when you love them well, they begin to recognize that heart change, that’s not only in you, but in them as well. And that really speaks into how we do that inside the walls as well. How well are we loving our people to where they are catching that vision, where they are seeing the different things that Jesus is doing and how he’s doing it differently, how Jesus is doing a new thing?

And we recognize what the Spirit is showing us through our interactions with our neighbors and recognizing – and this was the biggest thing for me, is helping the congregation to recognize that we need to get rid of that us-versus-them mentality. It’s not an us-versus-them because they are us.

We were in their place before we understood what Jesus was doing in our hearts. And there’s no separation. What they are is – they’re not just people who are outside the walls, we shouldn’t be recognizing them as enemies, but rather they are family who God is calling us to get to know, that we might share his story and be a conduit of revealing his love to them in relatable ways.

And I’m excited to see that heart change occurring in our community. People that normally wouldn’t step outside or do anything, are going out and above themselves to say, let’s see this new thing that Jesus is doing with us, and let’s just go ahead and take a chance. What’s the worst that could happen? That someone says no to us? Okay.

Follow the example of the 72, what did Jesus tell them to do? Look for those spaces where you’re welcomed. And if you’re not welcome, you shake the dust off your feet, bless them and move on. And that’s what we’ve been called to do. So, it takes the fear out of it, even though there’s some fear there, it kind of takes to fear out of it.

Cara: Yeah. Thank you, Terry.

Barbara, what about you? What have you seen in terms of growth as a church community in the Love Avenue?

Barbara: I pretty much, I think Terry covered it pretty well. I think that our people have been stuck for a long time.

They were taught early on before the changes that we weren’t supposed to go door to door and that we weren’t supposed to interact with non-church people. And so, this was a whole new thing for them. And I think that we had to step back and be really patient and continue to talk about it and continue to talk about it.

That Jesus came for the whole world, not just for us. And that since we were so happy that God called us and that he participates with us, that we should be happy to share that with everybody else so they can have that joy too.

So, I saw some of these patterns start to fall. I’m sure they’re not all the way gone, but I could see them changing. And I’ve been able to see that they’re starting to embrace the idea of loving your neighbor.

I think that’s been a hard one to understand because we tend as people to look at behavior and when we see the behaviors that we know are not right and that bother us, we tend to want to retreat from that and not engage with that instead of engaging in a different way so, that they can see there’s another way.

So, I’ve seen that growth in our people. And I think that as we go out and have other activities, that because we are changing that, we’ll be more accepting and people will see that, that we’ll be more attractive to other people. So, that’s what I have seen changing.

Cara: I love that.

And it sounds like sometimes there’s unlearning and relearning that comes along with growth and transformation, and even maybe going ahead and diving on it and getting your hands a little bit dirty. But either way it’s a process and to be along for that journey is an important thing.

Barbara: Yes, absolutely. And I saw that, we learned that God is not limited. That he doesn’t just look at one situation, and that’s the way it is. He sees far bigger than we do. And so, it’s great to watch and see that, that he wants relationships with everybody, and we get to join him with that.

Cara: Yes. Amen. And so, right along those lines as you all have been diving into the ministry of the Love Avenue, what have you learned about who God is, his mission, and his ministry in the world?

Barbara: Like I said, he’s not limited. I’ve learned that, and I guess I always kind of knew that, but I’ve seen it more because he’s always opening up things to us, helping us to see things better.

And I’ve seen that because he wants relationships, he’s not afraid to get in the middle of our messes. And we have a lot of messes, don’t we? And sometimes, we see things being insurmountable and we get afraid. I did at the beginning, I felt like I was stalled out because I didn’t know which way to turn.

I didn’t know what was expected of me. But I think we all learned that when he gives us something to do, if we will step back and trust him, he’ll show us where he wants to go with it. And even if we step out and make mistakes, he uses those mistakes to cause us to see something different. So, I felt that way that he’s really been working with me so, that I can understand what this is all about, so that I can share it with first my congregation and then with others around me.

Because there’s others around me, all around me, in my own neighborhood and in other parts of the world. So, if I learn it there, it’s going to be a benefit too.

Terry: Yes, indeed.

Barbara: God is big.

Cara: Yes. Amen. Amen. Terry, What about you?

Terry: It is really interesting, Cara, that throughout this entire process of planning this event, learning each other’s voice, seeing each other’s frustrations, our misunderstandings, our communication, our miscommunication and all of that I’ve learned.

In this process as I watched us coming together, that God is so patient with us and so merciful and full of grace and such a purveyor of love between all of us. That was like the glue that held us together even in planning stuff. And like I said before, the miscommunication we get, it was easy to get frustrated with each other.

Barbara and I would send text messages back and forth and the text message – I’m telling you right now, if you send a text message to someone and you feel funny about it, call them right away, call them right away. Because sometimes we take our own feelings on how things are worded and put our own inflections and heart behind it. And we’ll go and we’ll say why’d they say that to me like that?

And that in the early stages of this planning, I’m saying to myself what I just told her was really simple. I don’t understand how she can’t understand that. And that was part of me not listening to her voice because a nurturer wants to make sure that everybody is going to be okay.

And so, her questions were like, is this going to hurt anyone or confuse anyone or distract any of us from what God is calling us to do? It’s okay that she was asking for the details. What I saw in that was God’s heart of drawing us together, of showing us how to be patient with each other, how to exercise that mercy and grace, and truly exercise that unconditional love.

And with an event like this and with all the planning relating to your team, engaging the neighborhood and the many other things, it really showed me personally that God’s heart is all about that because those four words that I just used: being patient, being merciful, gracious, and loving is at the heart of all these healthy, loving relationships that you are going to engage. And it’s so, important that fruit is there to keep that relationship healthy.

And God was just telling me this throughout the entire process, and as we went further along my patience with – I hate to say it this way, I don’t want this to be misconstrued – but my patience of dealing with Barbara was getting better. And I was growing deeper into a relationship of love with that team and watching us come together and just seeing how God was the glue that was bringing us all together to call us according to his purpose.

And so, that was just a beautiful thing to watch.

Cara: Thanks Terry. And what I hear and what both of you shared is this idea that, it is his mission, and it is his ministry. And so, we are coming alongside, we’re participating, but at the end of the day, he’s got it, and he’s got us, right?

Terry: Yes, that’s right. We tend to forget that even, especially in the planning stages, because what you have to do is right in front of you, okay? I’ve got to call this thing to get the inflatables. I’ve got to call this to get the food trucks. I’ve got to set up this, I’ve got to set up that; I’ve got to build this, build that.

And we forget in the midst of all that, to recognize exactly what is God doing in our heart to transform us. What is he doing? And when we’re connecting with our neighbors, what is he doing to transform us there? And we tend to, God, I’ll call you when I need you. I’m a little busy right now.

I got to put all this together, but I’m pretty sure you’ll be there because you’re God, you’re bigger than all of this. But I’ll call you when I need you. No, it is, God, show me what you’re doing and let me join you. And that’s what it should be.

Cara: Yes. Yes. I’m wondering too as y’all have been participating in his mission and ministry in your neighborhood, what are you learning about your neighborhood, Barbara, and your neighbors?

Barbara: I see that our neighbors they very much need God. I see that, and that’s probably true in every neighborhood. But we’ve been serving probably three different areas near our church, and some don’t seem to want any activity. Some do.

We have an area that has a very high crime rate. And so, I think that that makes people afraid of trusting anybody and anything new. So, I think that’s been a hindrance for us up to this point. And Terry and I were talking about this, and I was sharing with him that I could see with people that came to our event, that some people are seeking things.

But when I look at the numbers of people we have to serve, I’m not sure that we’re in our target neighborhood now. We may be, and I know God will show us that, but I’m not real sure of that. And I feel like we want to be sure that we’re serving an area – not that these people don’t need it – but we want to make sure that we’re where God is working at this particular time.

So, we want to have our eyes open, and our focus be on hearing what God wants. And we have some plans, and we work with the schools a lot. The schools are very happy with participation that we have done with them. So, that’s been a plus in that neighborhood, is having an opportunity to work with the schools.

I know that we learned after the event in our debriefing that probably our particular building and setup is not real conducive to bringing the younger people in the area, that we have a lot of work to do to find out how we can be more culturally relevant with those younger people. So, that may make the difference in what I see as not responsive sometimes.

I do think that our activity was a success, and we were able to interact with a number of people. So, that’s a good thing there. I feel that God brought them for a reason and that everything we do in the neighborhood is valuable, and I’m sure it helps some people along the way.

And I know we have blessed our schools a great deal and their children. And I always say, when you reach the children, you’re going to reach the parents. So, I feel like perhaps we need to just keep going longer and keep moving forward. And it’s like I told Terry, I said, I don’t know what the future holds here, but I certainly want to give my full support and effort in this neighborhood until, and if God chooses to move us.

Those are some of the things I’ve learned about our neighborhood. I think they’re just a little reluctant to do change. But there may be some other things and Terry may have a different perspective on that than what I do, but so, I’ll let him give his little bit now.

Terry: Yeah. It’s similar to yours, Barbara. Some of the things that we’ve discovered I know that when we first engaged the Love Avenue and started traveling outside the walls and really focusing with intention on doing so, that we noticed that as we went door to door handing out gifts, just telling people that we care about them and just asking them what their needs were or anything of that nature, that they were a little hesitant.

And I guess that could be a mentality that’s in larger major cities. In the area where we’re serving right now, when you talk about specific individual neighborhoods within our one to two square miles around our church, there’s about seven or eight individual neighborhoods that are connected.

And each one of them has a different personality. And so, us getting out there, we also discovered that we need to probably be a little bit more consistent with that engagement is going to help us discover, what are their rhythms, and how do we get involved in those rhythms? What do we do to show them that we’re interested in what they have going on?

And so, a lot of them have this mentality that they’re very cautious to initial engagement. It’s almost like you come knocking on their door and you tell them, here’s a gift for you, and they think that they’re supposed to give something in return. Why are you doing this? I don’t understand why you are just coming up to my door and giving me stuff? What is this? What’s going on here?

And COVID didn’t help things either. This mentality that COVID has created as you’re handing someone something, they’re very leery about taking it from you because they don’t want that. They don’t want to catch that. And asking God to open our hearts to see more about what our neighborhood is all about is really going to require us to do a lot more consistent engaging, which is what we’re doing with that game day in the park that we do.

And with that being said, our congregation is still a commuter church. A lot of us live far away. Some of us have to drive 45 minutes to get to church. We have one member who drives two hours to come. And we are spread out in a big circle around our meeting place.

And we’re making this move now to discuss, okay, what about our own individual neighborhoods? Where are we, where we live? Laying the fleece out there, if you will, to see is this a place where God is calling us to? Is this a place where he wants us to engage in relationships?

And the answer to both of those questions, whether it’s the place where we’re meeting now or where we live, the answer is yes. He wants us to engage in both of those locations because that’s the ministry we’re called into. And thinking about their very cautious approach. That’s like listening to their voice.

How do we engage them in a way where they feel safe and secure? And they begin to realize that someone is approaching them for the sake of actually giving them love because they deserve it, because they exist. And mapping the neighborhood, discovering its rhythms and seeing how we fit in there and discovering the spaces that we’re called to engage.

It’s an intimidating journey because we have our own fears that we’re dealing with, but as we’ve discovered with this event and the people that we were able to meet, it is really a joyful journey. And I’m glad we’re walking it. It’s trying, but it’s fun. It really is.

Cara: Absolutely. Thank you both for that. And before we have to start closing out our time together, I have one final question for you. What advice would you give to those who are beginning their journeys of participating in Jesus’s mission and ministry through the Love Avenue? You want to go first, Barbara?

Barbara: It’s an interesting question and it’s a big question. I would say first, don’t overthink it. Because that’s what I did in the beginning. It has to be perfect. And how am I going to do this? And how am I going to do that? And oh, I don’t know if I – and so, I would say don’t overthink it. Don’t be afraid. You don’t have to be perfect. You don’t have to do it all like somebody else does it. You’re going to mess up. Own that and go on. So, I was thinking that if we can just learn to trust God to provide us with first the understanding that we need and the strength that we need to do what we cannot do.

Because in the beginning, I don’t think any of us understand fully what our Avenue is involved in or what we’re going to need to participate in it. We know we need to, but we don’t know what it’s going to require. We don’t know exactly where God’s leading us, so we have to first trust in him to show us those things and we need to pray.

And pray. We pray some more. Yeah, but if we learn not to be afraid and to ask questions, and I know for myself that I ask a lot of questions and sometimes it probably becomes burdensome. That’s what Terry was saying in our journey together. Because I do have a lot of questions.

Always don’t be afraid to ask questions. Even if people don’t have the answers. God’s going to provide somebody that will answer that. And as you develop a team, make sure these people are in the same situation you are. They don’t understand it any better than you do.

So, give lots of kudos and let them know how much you appreciate them because they all have voices too, and they’re going to be different from mine or yours. And they’re going to be important to put in the mix of things and you’re not going to understand them all the time, but you can learn from working together what other people need and what they can do for you because, you can’t do it all.

Don’t expect to do it all. And be sure that you share with your congregation what you’re doing and what you need from them and encourage them to get involved. Just that piece of communicating and praying and doing that over and over. I think that is the main thing that I would encourage people to do.

Cara: Barbara, that is excellent advice. Thank you for sharing that. Terry, what would you have to add to that?

Terry: Oh, what is there to add to that? She said it all, but I tell you what is the one thing that she did hit on, which I think is so important for congregations for Love Avenue champions, and anyone else involved in the Love Avenue: don’t be afraid. Do not be afraid.

How many times did we see in the New Testament in the life of Jesus where that phrase came up? When the angel came to Mary, when the angel came to Joseph? When Jesus came to his disciples on the water, what did he say to him?

And take courage. Do not be afraid, communicating to them that you don’t have to be afraid. I’m here with you. Everything is going to be fine. And when we go out into our neighborhoods and to our communities to engage with people, we have to understand that they’re probably carrying some of those doubts and fears and concerns because of everything that we’re experiencing in this world right now causes us to have these fears and uncertainties and not feel safe or secure.

And when we are going out into the Love Avenue to engage and working out the details of all of those things, we need to hear that common theme that Jesus is calling us to not be afraid, to recognize that he is already out there in those spaces where he’s calling us to join with him.

He’s not saying, You go do that and then I’ll come in see if I want to be involved with what you got going on. No, he’s already doing that, and he is already preparing the hearts that you are going to connect with. So, just taking that journey, building that relationship with each other, building that relationship with Jesus as you connect with those hearts that have been prepared to receive you.

They’re out there and they are patiently waiting. And looking for that love because this world is not really offering it to them. And every human being that I’ve encountered, no matter what they’re going through, once you start engaging them in a true unconditionally loving relationship, man, they just come alive.

And so, it’s just not being afraid to go out there and find those spaces where Jesus is working.

Cara: That’s wonderful. Thank you both so, much for sharing with us today and spending your time on the podcast. I think there’s something that is really powerful about sharing our stories of what God is up to in our midst. I think it’s an encouragement and a witness that can help one another along in our journeys as we point to Christ together.

But I’m not finished with you yet. Oh, we have our random question segment for this episode, and so I’ve some random questions and you guys can both blurt out what is, whatever the first thing is that comes to mind.

So, all of these questions are for both of you. And so, are y’all ready?

Barbara: I’m ready, all right. Yeah. Ready enough.

Cara: Here we go.

Terry: I got to overcome this fear and doubt that I’m having right now.

Cara: That’s exactly right. Question number one. Here we go. What trend defined your generation?

Terry: Oh, man.

Cara: Oh, let’s hear it, Terry.

Terry: Okay. What trend defined my generation? Oh, man. And you’re talking about, you’re talking about the eighties here. You’re talking about Gen X? No, there’s so, many of them. I’m thinking of all the I’m thinking of the big hairdos in the kind of clothes that we wore.

Man, I can’t pick out one specific thing, but I know that I would say, the hairstyles that we had. I myself, I had one of what you called the high-top fade. I had that when I was in high school. And yeah, I was so happy to get rid of that.

Cara: I request photo evidence.

Barbara, what about you?

Barbara: Gee, I’m thinking of this, I don’t know. Mine is between seventies and eighties. So, the trends for our generation? Gosh, it’s a hard question.

Cara: That’s alright, we can move on. That’s alright. I won’t put you too much torture here.

If you were to compete in the Olympics, what sport would you compete in?

Barbara: Oh, I would participate in the, if I could in the ice – what do they call it? The ice dancing?

Cara: Yes. It’s figure skating.

Barbara: The figure skating! Yes. Yes. I think it’s the most beautiful and most elegant sport there is. If I could do that’s what I would do.

Cara: Love it. What about you, Terry?

Terry: If I had the athletic ability to do so, I really gravitate towards the luge. I love watching the luge. It is so much fun. And every time they’re banking on those walls or whatever, I’d love to be steering that thing, but I’d probably be wondering if I could make the sled come up off the wall and just do a big loop and come down on the other side. And I’d probably be losing a race. We not trying to do stunt, Terry, we’re trying to win a race.

Cara: But you know, if you’re having fun, then you’re winning. Isn’t that right?

Terry: I love to go fast and that’s probably the biggest problem Barbara had with me in making this event happens.

Barbara: Because I don’t like to go fast.

Cara: We’ll move on. Speaking of the ice then, so we don’t have to get into that.

What would you do if you came home and found a penguin in your freezer? This is really important.

Barbara: I might just faint away. I’d probably scream and say, where did this come?

Terry: I think I’d just laugh hysterically because I just love penguins. I really do. I’d probably be excited. First, I’d like to know, first of all, how did he get in the house? Who brought him in the house? And how did they do that? But to find him in my fridge, I think I’d have to talk to my wife because she’s the only other person in the house. What? Why is this here? But I think I’d enjoy it. I would probably try to keep it as a pet or something.

Cara: Oh, a pet penguin.

All right. What is your favorite time of day?

Barbara: I think my favorite time of day is in the early morning because the weather is the nicest then. It’s like peaceful and quiet and I like to then have a little reading at that time.

And so, I’m not so hurried. It’s a really nice, peaceful time of day.

Terry: And I like the early evening because it feels like the early morning, but that’s much later after I’ve gotten out of bed. I don’t like the early morning because I like to stay in bed, but I love that sunset atmosphere, when everything is beginning to settle down and the birds are settling down and the lightning bugs. And yes, I did say lightning bugs and not fireflies, lightning bugs.

That’s what I called them when I was little.

Cara: That’s what they’re called.

Barbara: Lightning bugs. That’s what they’re called.

Terry: That’s right. I wish I could high five right now, Cara. That’s right. But I used to love catching them when I was a kid, so that early evening, right as the sun is starting to go down, I love that part of the day, except when I’m driving, I can’t stand to twilight when I’m driving.

Cara: Fair enough. All right. Final question for y’all. If you were a dog, what breed of dog would you be?

Barbara: I’d be a poodle.

Cara: Ok. That’s a fun breed.

Terry: Oh, I would be a husky.

Cara: Ooh, those are fun too.

Terry: I absolutely love Huskies. I had a I had a friend who lived in Joplin, and she had a beautiful husky. Her name was Miko.

And we just had this wonderful relationship. I could not see her for months on end, and when I would see her, she’d just come and just jump all over me. And so, if I was to be a dog breed, that’s the kind of person that I am. And that doesn’t mean that any, if you see me again, I’m not going to jump all over you, I promise.

But I just like to be that type of person to just love people, and that’s what she did. Plus, they whine a lot too, which I’m good at.

Cara: Poodles and huskies are good dogs. So, that’s a good way to close out this episode.

I do really appreciate both of you spending your time with us today and sharing your insights and experience. We do love to end our podcast with the word of prayer. So, Barbara, would you be willing to pray for our churches and our pastors, our ministry leaders, and members in GCI?

Barbara: Sure.

Our great God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We thank you so, very much for your love, for your participation in our lives and your guidance and direction in us. Thank you for getting in the midst of all of our messes and helping us to clean them up so, that they would be pleasing and glorifying to you. I pray that in the midst of our churches, as we learn about loving our neighbors and discipling people and providing hope and encouragement, I just pray, Father, that you would give understanding and give wisdom and patience to all of our pastors and to the Avenue champions because they need a lot of encouragement and they need a lot of pats on the back so that they can keep going forward.

And I just pray that you would bless each and every church area, each pastor, each Avenue coordinator, and I pray for the memberships as well, because they’re in the process of learning so much about how to interact with others and about what our mission really is.

And so, I just ask you to bless them, pray that you would guide us in every way, that we would be able to love people appropriately, that we would be able to share your ministry with them, that we would help be able to help them see that they are included and loved. And help us to develop the ability to see the culture of our neighbors so that we can react and minister appropriately to them.

So, I just give you thanks now for the opportunity to do this podcast. Thank you and bless Cara and all the work that she does and all that she brings to us. And thank you for Rue because he has orchestrated this podcast and pray that you would bless him going forward to be able to continue to accomplish these things.

And I just put all of this in into your hands, your loving and merciful hands. And I ask it all in the name of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Terry: Amen. Amen.

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Cara: One of the things that I thought was really important about their testimony is holding space to learn and grow and to follow God’s leading, even when it meant doing things differently and maybe even when it was a little bit challenging for them as a team and as individuals.

Because I think it’s one thing to know the how-tos, the checklists of the Love Avenue, but living it out, putting flesh on it, is a whole other thing that can be a little bit messy. But is it sounds like from their own experience, is absolutely worth it.

What’s something that spoke to you through what they shared from their journey and experience, Charissa?

Charissa: I love that during their preparations for the event with hosting the Outside the Walls event, they understood each other more and how to be a better team together and end up applying that to understanding others as well, and the people that they were spreading love and witnessing to.

Cara: Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that insight with us.

And for those who are interested in learning more about living out mission in their lives and their neighborhoods, could you tell us a bit about our Place-sharing series?

Charissa: Yes, of course. The GCI Place-sharing series explores the practice of place-sharing through interviews, teachings, and a Q&A panel. Visit www.gci.org/placesharing to check it out and learn what place sharing is, why it’s valuable, and how it reflects the ministry of Jesus.

Cara: Thank you all so much, and until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast.  We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, healthy churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

 

 

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

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Anthony: Hello, friends and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome this month’s guest, Pastor Al Kurzawa. Al is a Pastor in Grace Communion International who is in his 17^th year serving two churches in Seaford and Morwell, Australia in the state of Victoria. Also, for 10 years he was a national Youth Coordinator and Camp Director for SEP Australia. Al is currently wrapping up his post-grad work on a master’s degree in Theological Studies at Grace Communion Seminary. He’s married to the delight of his life, Elizabeth, and they have four children (two girls and two boys) ranging in ages 12-19.

Al thank you for being with me today. Welcome to the podcast, and for those in our listening audience who may not be familiar with you, we’d love to know a little bit about your story.

And I especially want to know the part of the story where you ended up in Australia, because I’ve known you since the 1990s. We went to undergrad together in Texas, and “down under” is a long way from Texas. So how in the world did you end up there?

Al: First, just thank you for having me on the show, Anthony. I am so hyped and I’m not sure if it’s because I get to do what I love, which is talking about Bible passages, or whether I’m hyped on coffee, drinking it after 5:00 PM tonight.

But either way, sometimes when people ask me about my story, I tend to think of Paul when he says, I was a Hebrew born of the tribe of Benjamin and pharisee of the Pharisees, because my parents met at a church singles function. They didn’t actually like each other, but that’s where they met, and they ended up writing each other, getting married.

And so, I have grown up in the church, and it’s all I know, and I love it. I love having grown up in the church. I ended up going to a Bible college. And then at the Bible college, I got to go to a wonderful camp for youth. And right after I graduated, I ended up working at that summer camp my fourth or sixth year up there.

And I ended up falling in love with a beautiful redheaded Aussie. And she still had one more year of Bible college to go. And when she finished up, we got married, we lived in North Carolina for about four years. Growing up, I lived all over in the U.S., Florida, New York, North Carolina, Texas, Utah.

So, when people ask me where I’m from, I’m like, all over and. The thing is, I never picked up an accent moving all around. So now that we ended up moving back to Australia so she could be close to her family where we wanted to raise our kids so they’re close to her parents because they love being grandparents. They were made for that!

And I’ve now been here in Australia for 20 years. I’ve got my Australian citizenship. And after 20 years, as far as I know, I still don’t have an Aussie accent.

Anthony: You don’t, I’m a little disappointed, Al. Part of blending in with your community is sounding like them too. But you sound like you’re from the Midwest, brother.

Al: Yeah, as I tell everyone, I’m such a great pastor because everyone can understand me. I don’t have an accent, which the Aussies all seem to laugh at that.

Anthony: Yeah. It’s great to have you on here. We’ve known each other for a long time, and it’s really fun to have two buddies come around scripture and talk about our Lord Jesus Christ together.

Let’s get on with it. It’s that time. And here are the four Bible passages that we’re going to discuss.

Romans 15:4-13                                                                          The Welcome Mat

Luke 1:46-55                                                                                A Mama’s Praise

Matthew 1:18-25                                                                        God With Us

Luke 2:1-14, 15-20                                                                      Joy For All People

Let me read the first pericope of the month. It’s Romans chapter 15, four through 13. I’m reading from the Common English Bible. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Advent 2 on December the 4^th.

⁴ Whatever was written in the past was written for our instruction so that we could have hope through endurance and through the encouragement of the scriptures. ⁵ May the God of endurance and encouragement give you the same attitude toward each other, similar to Christ Jesus’ attitude. ⁶ That way you can glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ together with one voice. ⁷ So welcome each other, in the same way that Christ also welcomed you, for God’s glory. ⁸ I’m saying that Christ became a servant of those who are circumcised for the sake of God’s truth, in order to confirm the promises given to the ancestors, ⁹ and so that the Gentiles could glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, Because of this I will confess you among the Gentiles, and I will sing praises to your name. ¹⁰ And again, it says, Rejoice, Gentiles, with his people. ¹¹ And again, Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and all the people should sing his praises. ¹² And again, Isaiah says, There will be a root of Jesse, who will also rise to rule the Gentiles. The Gentiles will place their hope in him. ¹³ May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in faith so that you overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Al, what does this passage unveil about the God revealed in Jesus Christ?

Al: Oh man. So many good things.

First off, what jumps out at me is just that line in verse 5, May the God of endurance and encouragement. Jesus doesn’t ask us to endure out of our own strength and endurance. God is the God of endurance and encouragement.

I did a sermon in 2 Thessalonians this past week, and there’s this line there that says, God is the God of eternal encouragement. I just love that line. Eternal encouragement. Jesus isn’t asking us to endure from our own strength or our own endurance. And that’s where there’s that sense of peace, because it’s God who is the God of encouragement and endurance.

It’s his endurance that we see displayed in Jesus through his whole physical life, his ministry, and his endurance all the way through the cross and the grave and the resurrection. It’s his endurance that we now get to participate in.

And you look at this passage where he talks about the Gentiles, and you see that God is always bigger than we make him out to be. He’s more inclusive, sorry, more inclusive, more encompassing. His plans are larger and bigger than what we think.

Part of this Christian journey as disciples is that we’re always learning that God is so much bigger, so much broader. His plans are so much more all-encompassing than we can think of. We’re always having to readjust just how big this God is that loves us.

Anthony: Yeah, I’ve heard it said, Al, that if you ever cross a line where you think you’ve gone too far in saying, God is just too good to be true. You can’t actually get there. You think you may have. But like you were saying, life is this ongoing repentance where our minds are being blown and changed by the reality of the God revealed in Jesus Christ.

And it’s so much better than our fallen imagination can get to. And thanks be to God that it is his endurance and his encouragement. So, what are the implications both corporately and personally to welcome each other in the same way Christ has welcomed us? What say you?

Al: Just one more thing on that past question and then I’ll answer that one.

One of the other things that jumped out in this passage to me was that hope comes first. That it’s not our plans in preparing; we do all that, we make our plans, or we prepare everything, and then we hope for the best.

We have a hope and a God who is faithful. So, we hope in him. And then we make our plans and preparing, and it comes out of that hope of what we’re doing.

And the difference there is between us making our plans and that’s the center. And then God takes up any slack versus God is the center, the God of encouragement, the God of hope is at the center. And then because of who he is, then it’s born out of us knowing how to and being in relation to him, that we then do things and make our plans and all that out of that hope.

That was just one other thought from that passage I wanted to bring out. And then you asked about the implications both corporately and personally. Reading this passage, I thought back to Paul who’s writing this, and a guy named Ananias and a guy named Barnabas.

Because Paul, he was Saul, it was his name. And he has this unbelievable encounter with the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus. And then he goes on and he’s blind. And this brother, Ananias, comes and he comes to Paul and lays his hands on him, and he welcomes Paul. It’s this beautiful story.

I just love the story of how Ananias, after talking with God, “God, are you sure this is who you want me to go? This guy’s coming to arrest us.” And God goes, No, I’ve got plans for him. And Ananias goes and lays hands on him.

And then you have Barnabas who welcomes Paul and actually takes him to meet the apostles because people were a bit scared of him. And you see in Paul’s life how he was welcomed even with his background and his story.

And yet he was welcomed. And so, we then translate that into how Christ was, he was welcoming of everyone. And we see even of Saul, he welcomed Saul into the fold as he’s converted. And so, we now have this wonderful model of, personally, we look beyond labels. Our world right now just loves doing labels, and it’s going beyond labels of rich, or poor, evangelical, charismatic, orthodox, capitalist, socialist, libertarian.

We go beyond that, and we look at the person, all of the person. We welcome them into God’s embrace. We’re just reflecting the embrace that God already has for them. So, we do that personally and the people we meet, but then we also do it corporately as the church, we have open doors. We welcome people and we let them know they belong, that soon as they show up, they belong, that God loves them.

Anthony: Yeah. We trust that one died and therefore all died. And so, we can no longer look at anyone from a worldly point of view. Correct? That we can only see as Christ sees. And I can’t help but think of that passage in Luke 19 where God in Jesus Christ welcomes Zacchaeus, a chief tax collector despised among his own people. And Jesus welcomed him into his own home. I’m going to come stay with you, Zacchaeus.

And that’s the initiative of our Lord revealed in Jesus Christ.

Verse 13, Al, I think is a wonderful benediction. And what would you say to someone, especially during the season of Advent, somebody who’s not experiencing as much joy and peace as they would desire? What’s Paul declared here for all of us?

Al: The first thing I would do is I would just sit with the person. I would find out where they are. I would just listen before I said anything because the last thing I want to do is offer shallow cliches to someone who’s hurting or feeling loss, or possibly going through something that I’ve just got no experience in, or no understanding, or I don’t have a common ground with what they’re going through.

I don’t want to offer, simple cliches. I want to just sit with them. And then in sitting with them and listening to them, hearing their story and just being with them in whatever they’re feeling. Then possibly in that sitting with them, then this benediction is lived out and they start to feel this sense of peace because they know they’ve been heard. Someone has actually taken the time to listen to them.

Then after doing that and making sure they’re listened to, then if they still feel like they’re looking for a word from me, that I feel like they want me to say something into their situation, I would just share with them that we can hold peace and anxiety, hope and despair together at the same time. We’re these walking paradoxes at time, and that we can be experiencing multiple feelings at once.

I might be feeling a sense of love from my wife today, and at the same time feeling anxiety from my daughter who’s having a hard time at school. I can feel the peace of God’s presence in my life and at the same time be hurting for a friend who’s going through a rough time. The peace and joy of God aren’t limited just to what we’re feeling at the time, in the moment.

The peace and joy of God are our fruit that is born out of our hope – as we talked about in this passage – born out of our hope in a God who does not disappoint, a God who is faithful, a hope in a God who’s the God of eternal encouragement and endurance. He will see us through whatever we’re going through, however long it takes.

He will be with us. He’s Emmanuel, and he will go through what we’re going through with us. So, our hope in God gives us a perspective of the bigger picture of the God who came to us and takes us with them in the ascension. And it is in that bigger picture beyond what we’re experiencing right now, or we’re feeling right now, that bears that fruit of peace and joy in our lives.

And that’s probably what I would then talk to a larger audience, like a congregation, and bringing out in this passage – that we all might be sitting in different spots during this month, and with everything going on, hectic and busy and joy. And we’ve got all these mixed feelings, but in all of this, God is with us.

And we focus on the big picture of the God who we have hope in, who doesn’t disappoint. He makes his promises, and he fulfills them. He promised a Messiah, and the Messiah came so we can rely on this God who keeps his promises again and again. Our hope focuses on who God is, the God that is a God of encouragement, the God of hope.

And then out of that, the peace and in this benediction that Paul gives us, this peace that he talks about. And the joy then is born out of that hope that we have in him.

Anthony: I appreciated what you said about just sitting with someone, listening to them, making sure they feel seen and heard. To me, that’s the marrying of gospel proclamation along with gospel demonstration. It’s just being with somebody and in that way, reflecting the truth that God is a God of hope and of all joy and peace, even in the midst of great sorrow. The paradox that you mentioned, that’s a beautiful way of expressing it. It goes back to that old saying that’s become somewhat cliche, but it’s still truthful, that people don’t care what you know until they know that you care. And that’s what I hear you stating there. That’s beautiful.

Let’s move on to our next pericope, which is Luke 1:46 – 55. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Advent 3, which is December the 11^th. Al, would you read it for us, please?

Al: Sure.

⁴⁶ Mary said, “With all my heart I glorify the Lord! ⁴⁷ In the depths of who I am I rejoice in God my savior. ⁴⁸ He has looked with favor on the low status of his servant. Look! From now on, everyone will consider me highly favored ⁴⁹ because the mighty one has done great things for me. Holy is his name. ⁵⁰ He shows mercy to everyone, from one generation to the next, who honors him as God. ⁵¹ He has shown strength with his arm. He has scattered those with arrogant thoughts and proud inclinations. ⁵² He has pulled the powerful down from their thrones and lifted up the lowly. ⁵³ He has filled the hungry with good things and sent the rich away empty-handed. ⁵⁴ He has come to the aid of his servant Israel, remembering his mercy, ⁵⁵ just as he promised to our ancestors, to Abraham and to Abraham’s descendants forever.”

Anthony: Mary’s Magnificat is a beloved passage of scripture, and I could tell you like it too, just the way you read it. What stands out to you in this contemplation of her song?

Al: First, I usually tend to stick to the NIV translation. I like reading some of the others. But when you mentioned that we were going to read from the Common English Bible, and I read this passage, I’m so glad you picked that translation.

Because what jumped out at me was right there at the beginning, “with all my heart I glorify the Lord in the depths of who I am.” Mary is feeling this sense of awe and worship to the depths of her bones. It’s just bubbling up out of her. And I get this sense that she couldn’t stop herself from singing God’s praises at this moment, even if she wanted to.

And I was trying to think how can we relate to this?

And I thought back to the concept of proposing. When I propose to my wife, there’s that moment because you’re a little, what if she says no? But you propose, and she says yes, and you’re happy and all that. But I thought back, and it was after that, nights afterwards, days afterwards, that I was sitting there when this joy was just like, she said yes. It was like it was just hitting me. She said, Yes! My whole life is now going to be different for the better.

And to me that, that was the closest I could come to what Mary is feeling here, is that it’s just this joy that she’s feeling and it’s bubbling up and it’s not just this instant thing, it’s something that’s just percolating, and it just keeps bubbling up.

The more and more she thinks about everyone will consider me highly favored. That this is something that is going to change – not just me – this is going to change everything. This is going to change my generation, but this is going to change everything for all of humanity. And she’s just, wow.

And she just can’t help but sing and praise. This song probably captures how she was feeling for days and weeks, just contemplating as this little baby grows inside of her and she feels this kick. It’s probably something that she just repeated to herself again and again. God is faithful and, ah, yeah, I’ll stop there.

Anthony: She said, yes. That sounds like a jewelry commercial.

But Mary obviously said amen to God’s amen to her. And she recognized that she was highly favored with God and that favor is unique and particular to her. But let me ask you this, can the particularity of her favored-ness show us something which is universally true about all of us?

And if so, how and if not, why not?

Al: Yeah. Good question. You know what God does for her; she says he looked with favor on the low status of his servant. And that’s what he’s done for all of us. Because in one state, in one sense, all of us have that low status. All of us are sinners. All of us live under that, that Adam and Eve’s line, and he’s done this act for all of us, this act of mercy. That of Jesus the Son coming and being incarnate in Jesus.

He’s done for everyone. So, it’s this personal story between God and Mary. And yet in Mary, it’s also our story in that God is a personal God. He shows each of us great favor, just simply because we’re now adopted in the Son through the Spirit. We are now in Christ. And the Father now looks at you and at me, and at all of us as beloved sons and beloved daughters.

So, this feeling of awe and victory and worship that Mary feels. And her song of praise, she does on our behalf, because it’s our story too. God has looked on us the least, the last, the little, the lost (as Robert Capon likes to say.) Those that seem to be dead to society, and he has given us favor.

Mary recognizes that she’s entered the unfolding story of God’s fidelity to Abraham and his seed way back in this story in Genesis 12, where he promises that all nations will be blessed through you. And she’s now a part of this story that continues to unfold generation after generation. And so just as she’s a part of it, we now get to be a part of it too.

Anthony: With that in mind, o favored one, Al Kurwaza, what else would you like for us to see and hear from this passage?

Al: Two things. And the first, I’ll just point to somewhere else, and that is the place of Israel in God’s heart. He did not abandon them at the cross any more than he ever abandoned Gentiles.

They’ve always been a part of his plan. And I can’t it articulate as well, but T.F. Torrance in his book, The Mediation of Christ, just does such a great job of recognizing that. I’ll just point to that way because that was something that jumped out in this passage. That Mary is part of that Jewish story, and that Jesus comes within Israel’s story for Israel.

When Paul goes out, he would go to the synagogues first. He wanted to share the story with the Jews, and then he would then share it with the Gentiles because the story is for both.

And then the other thing in this passage that I really like is how God sees us. It’s the Zacchaeus that you mentioned just previously, right? That he’s in this tree. He’s a short little guy. He is in a tree trying to get a glimpse of Jesus. And Jesus sees him.

Jesus sees Hannah, who is sitting there, and she wants to have a child so badly, and she’s praying, and she goes to the temple year after year. And God sees her.

And then there’s this beautiful story with Hagar when Hagar takes Ishmael and leaves because Sarah is just torturing her practically and giving her such a hard time. And God says, Hagar, where are you going? And talks to her and says that your son, Ishmael, and says what the name of Ishmael will be. And it’s “God hears.” So, God hears us. And then Hagar names this place, and she names it because you are the God who sees me.

So, it’s these little people, the Hagars and the Hannahs and the Zacchaeus and you and me, and that God sees us. He cares for us. And in Mary’s song, I think that’s where it comes out. She’s a nobody. She’s a nobody. And yet God sees her and includes her in his wonderful plan that he has for all of us.

Anthony: Your reflections made me think of Luke 13, a recent lectionary passage where Jesus is in the synagogue teaching. And he sees a woman who had been bent over for 18 years and calls her forward to participate in her healing that day based on his loving initiative.

And this is who God is. And I think this is why Mary sings with all of her hearts. And where we can sing too, because as it says in verse 50, he shows mercy to everyone. That’s all of us. We are the lowly who have been lifted high in the ascension.

Hallelujah, praise God.

Al: Oh hallelujah. And I love that what you just said. He takes the initiative. That’s what’s so wonderful about this God. He takes the initiative and then, ah wow. Yep.

Anthony: Let’s move on to our next passage for the month. It’s Matthew 1: 18 – 25. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Advent 4, which is on December the 18^th.

¹⁸ This is how the birth of Jesus Christ took place. When Mary his mother was engaged to Joseph, before they were married, she became pregnant by the Holy Spirit. ¹⁹ Joseph her husband was a righteous man. Because he didn’t want to humiliate her, he decided to call off their engagement quietly. ²⁰ As he was thinking about this, an angel from the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, don’t be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because the child she carries was conceived by the Holy Spirit. ²¹ She will give birth to a son, and you will call him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” ²² Now all of this took place so that what the Lord had spoken through the prophet would be fulfilled: ²³ Look! A virgin will become pregnant and give birth to a son, And they will call him, Emmanuel.  (Emmanuel means “God with us.”) ²⁴ When Joseph woke up, he did just as an angel from God commanded and took Mary as his wife. ²⁵ But he didn’t have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son. Joseph called him Jesus.

The author Robert Capon once described talking about God as throwing analogies against the mystery. I love that. Articulating the implications of the incarnation of the son of God is nearly an impossible task, Al. And yet we try. We try to put words to it. So, tell us about the birth of Jesus.

Al: If I’m going to trip up, this is it, because it’s almost beyond our language. And it’s why we have to then refer and use things like metaphors and poetry to try and capture something that’s so beyond straightforward words.

And I’m going to refer to another author, C.S. Lewis. As I came across his readings, he uses an analogy that really helped for me, and that was a cube and a square. And he was talking about that as a square, a square only lives in two dimensions. And it can only understand two dimensions. It can understand one dimension and two. But a cube is in three dimensions, and the square is just not going to be able to understand the cube. But the cube can understand the square because part of the cube is that square part, that two dimensions.

And where CS Lewis was going with that analogy is that God, not that God is a cube, but that God is God. And we can’t use creation and things of creation to describe the Trinity. We can’t go there because God is not a part of his creation. He is the creator.

But what’s amazing and this is what blows me away, is that God, even though he’s beyond us in creation, and we’re only created beings, God wants us to know him. He wants to reveal himself to us. Like this cube wants the square to actually know the cube in one sense. God isn’t limited, whereas the cube is limited; he can’t make the square understand three dimensions. God’s not limited, and he actually does something that blows us away. He makes himself known by coming down and becoming one of us.

He reveals himself to us by becoming one of us – human, fully human, born of a woman, just like you and me. And then in this person of Jesus Christ in his birth, we then find out that God is a relational God. We have a Father who says, This is my Son who my love. And we have this Spirit flowing through the Son.

And the Son says, I only do what the Father tells me to do. And I see my Father at work, and I participate. And so, we find out that this is a relational God. And so, this God who’s the creator and we’re only the creation, has somehow figured out a way to actually reveal himself to us. Not everything, because we can’t fully comprehend God, but enough to know that this is a relational God who’s willing to humble himself and become one of us.

In one sense, it’s the ultimate in place-sharing. We didn’t come up with this phrase, place-sharing. God actually shows us what place-sharing is. He comes and sets up his tent with us. John 1:14. He makes his dwelling with us. It’s like he’s setting up his tent.

You know when you go on a drive, and you stop at a rest area? You stop, you stretch your legs and then you go. But when you go camping, you bring a tent, you bring sleeping gear, you bring food, and you set up the tent, and you’re planning to stay there for a while to actually be part of this campsite and be part of it. And so, when it says, God sets up his tent with us, he comes and actually dwells with us.

He place-shares with us by actually experiencing humanity as we experience humanity. He experiences hunger, he experiences cold, he experiences being rejected and betrayal. Disciples leave him. He experiences bloodying up his knee. He experiences joy, and he shows us what true life is because he has the experience of the Father and the Spirit and being in communion with them and showing us that’s what his intentions are for us.

Anthony: Karl Barth, and I’m paraphrasing, talked about how we cannot comprehend God, as you mentioned, at best, we can apprehend, get glimpses. But thanks be to God that he wants to reveal himself and self-revelation in the person of Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity.

And this is why the incarnation is so mindboggling that he would stoop to our level, just to be with his kids. Like you, as a parent, getting down on the floor with your child to play with them to meet them where they are. That the actual true Sabbath would walk into a synagogue on the sabbath day, just to be with his people, it is astonishing. May we never lose the awe and wonder of the incarnation of our Lord.

Let’s think about Joseph and his actions toward Mary for a moment. What, if anything, can his actions teach us?

Al: First, what jumps out at me is Joseph’s respect for Mary, right from the start. If you know a bit about the culture at that time, the patriarchal system, the way husbands could treat their wives, the way men Jewish men could treat women in this story.

Joseph could have behaved and acted in a whole lot of ways when he finds out that Mary was pregnant. And those ways could have ruined Mary’s life, or at least caused her a tremendous amount of pain. But right from the beginning, he wanted to honor her and respected her. Even the thought of divorcing her quietly so that it didn’t cause her any more grief than she was already going to feel being pregnant out of wedlock.

So, we see right from the beginning, this is a man who wanted to respect a female. And that right there, I think, in that culture, tells us a bit about Joseph. And then we see his faith and obedience to God, because when God tells him, No, you’re going to marry Mary, he obeys God’s instructions after the dream.

So, we see his respect for Mary, and we see him honoring God by not consummating the marriage until after Jesus was born. So, he follows God’s instructions, marries Mary, but then he also doesn’t consummate because he knows that this is sacred. This is something special going on.

And he allows Mary to go through the full pregnancy and Jesus is born, as the passage tells us.

Anthony: Yeah, that’s, I’m just thinking about what you stated in terms of just the way he honored her, respected her, and he had at his disposal, societal options that would have really belittled and humiliated her.

And in that way, he embodied our Lord Jesus Christ because Jesus could shame us. He literally has every right to belittle our waywardness, but he doesn’t. He even in the midst of great mocking and pain on the cross, he says, Father, forgive them, as he reveals the heart of the Father.

I thank God for Joseph in the way that he’s reflecting reality, that we experience with Jesus Christ our Lord.

Al, the witness of both Testaments in Scripture seem to point, and they don’t just seem to, they do point to a God who really likes his kids, who wants to be with his people. And so, we have a God named, Emmanuel, God with us, which explicates that reality.

So, the with-ness of God, what does it teach us? What is our response to it? What do you want to share with us?

Al: Oh boy. This is a good one. That’s a good question. Boy, we could go quite a while on this, so I’ll try to refrain from going too long. But Jesus himself defines, as I mentioned earlier, place-sharing with us.

God comes and place-shares with us. And I heard this once, I think it was Randy Bloom one time mentioned that the incarnation is God’s radical affirmation of our humanity. He takes on our humanity. And then I first heard this line from Elmer Colyer (but he might have been quoting Torrance), that God does not want to be God without us.

So, he chooses to be God with us, and both Testaments say, I will be their God and they will be my people. That’s the beautiful concluding image in Revelation. I will be their God and they will be my people. And it’s not us going off somewhere; it’s that God comes to us.

Even in Revelation, even in the final coming, God comes to us and there’s a new heaven and a new earth where it’s together, where we are in the full presence of God.

So, this God, this creator of the universe, the God, the one who’s created everything, who is complete in and by himself of the three persons of the Trinity and lacks nothing, chooses to be God with us.

Wow. His creation. We’re just his creation. We’re lowly humans who continue to rebel against him time and time again. And yet, every time we rebel against him and turn our backs, God continues to say no to our no and chooses to be God with us. And it wasn’t just this one time where Jesus comes and is on earth for 30 years with us.

He then sends the Holy Spirit, which is God’s presence. The Spirit of the Son is now flowing through us and the body of the Church. And then it doesn’t stop then either; in Jesus’ final coming, God is with us. And so, we get to be with him in his full glory for all eternity.

So this is definitely a God who shows us time and time again – from the beginning of the story when he’s walking in the garden looking for Adam and Eve to the very end when he comes down and says, I will be their God and they will be people – this is a God who wants to be with us. And that is what can really humble us again and again.

And it’s also something that we can truly clinging to when we mess up, when we goof up, when we just make our sin again. And we’re like, Why am I still doing this? Why am I frustrating with this?

This is what we can clinging to, is that this is a God who wants to be God with us. He chooses to dwell with us. Even if we don’t deserve it, this is what he wants to do. And he just continues to invite us. I like to use the word, drawing. He’s continually drawing us to him like a magnet. He just draws us to him because he loves us so much.

He wants to be with us.

Anthony: Yeah, that’s such a good word, such an encouraging word during Advent because part of Advent is this longing, this anticipation, this waiting for the arrival of God to be with us. And he is.

It’s like you said, and I think this is an important word to bring up, that even as we talk about the eschatological truth of Jesus’s second coming, we cannot rightfully talk about it as if God in Jesus Christ is not here by his Spirit.

And sometimes you get this disconnect like, Oh, we’re just waiting for the fullness of the kingdom, as if God is not with us now, but he is, even if we don’t sense it.

And really isn’t that a big part of the Christian walk? That the God that we have with us in the Holy Spirit opens the eyes of our heart to see the reality of God’s presence with us in the here and now. It’s this growing in our awareness of God’s power and presence by the Holy Spirit. So, this is such a fantastic word at a time of Advent in a time of chaos and disconnection to know that God is with us and he’s going to see his good promises through. Amen and amen.

Al: Amen. And if I could just add Anthony, you know that disconnect you’re talking about, when we think about, Oh Jesus isn’t here with us; he went and ascended to heaven. The great news is that we ascended with him. He took us with him. Paul says that we only see things darkly right now because we’re with Jesus.

So, whether it is in heaven where Jesus sits at the right hand of the throne, or whether it’s down here on Earth, Jesus is with us because his Spirit, as you were just saying, flows through us. So, Jesus is with us. And if we think, oh Jesus is up there somewhere in heaven, well, we’re with him there because he rose with us.

That this union with Christ was so important to Paul that he says it like 172 times one way or another, that we are in Christ, in Jesus Christ. One way or another. He says it over and over again because we are, our life is in Christ. So, we are so united with him.

So, when he died, we died with him. When he rose, we rose with him When he ascends to heaven. He takes us with them and dwells at the right hand. So, we are always with Christ. That is the only way to have life, is our union with Christ. That is our life. There is no life outside of that. So, he comes in the incarnation to show us that he is with us.

And then the whole story, the New Testament, is that he is always with us. Whether he dies and goes into the grave, whether the grave is empty, whether he’s resurrected, whether he ascends. We are always with Jesus because we are now united with him.

Anthony: That’s so powerful and hard to, again, comprehend that there is this double movement of grace that we are in Christ and so therefore we do what Christ does.

We move closer to the Father. That’s what love does. It always moves closer to the other. That’s what obedience looks like too, as Jesus is obedient to the Father, but also, he is with us by the Spirit. So, as I’m frying my eggs in the morning, he’s there. Yes, I find myself in sin. He is there when I’m loving my family, or not.

He is there and always through love, not just leaving us where we are, helping us to mature into himself, who is the head of the church. Hallelujah, praise God. It’s like you said at the top when I asked the question, we really could spend an entire podcast, a series of podcasts trying to describe this with-ness that we have with God in God.

Hallelujah.

Al: I love that phrase, you just used double movement. That’s beautiful and that we can just chew on that. Just take that with you, that double movement and it’s God moving towards us, but then God drawing us towards him, and then it’s in Jesus’s obedience that we’re able to draw towards him.

And so, God again, initiates both, but it’s this double movement that we get to participate in. So that’s a great phrase that you used.

Anthony: Brother man, it’s Christmas day. Let’s move on to our final pericope of the month. It’s Luke 2:1-14, 15-20 Common English Bible. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Christmas Day, December the 25^th.

Al, Please read it for us.

Al: Okay.

In those days Caesar Augustus declared that everyone throughout the empire should be enrolled in the tax lists. ² This first enrollment occurred when Quirinius governed Syria. ³ Everyone went to their own cities to be enrolled. ⁴ Since Joseph belonged to David’s house and family line, he went up from the city of Nazareth in Galilee to David’s city, called Bethlehem, in Judea. ⁵ He went to be enrolled together with Mary, who was promised to him in marriage and who was pregnant. ⁶ While they were there, the time came for Mary to have her baby. ⁷ She gave birth to her firstborn child, a son, wrapped him snugly, and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the guestroom. ⁸ Nearby shepherds were living in the fields, guarding their sheep at night. ⁹ The Lord’s angel stood before them, the Lord’s glory shone around them, and they were terrified. ¹⁰ The angel said, “Don’t be afraid! Look! I bring good news to you—wonderful, joyous news for all people. ¹¹ Your savior is born today in David’s city. He is Christ the Lord. ¹² This is a sign for you: you will find a newborn baby wrapped snugly and lying in a manger.” ¹³ Suddenly a great assembly of the heavenly forces was with the angel praising God. They said, ¹⁴ “Glory to God in heaven, and on earth peace among those whom he favors.”

Anthony: Not a bad job pronouncing Quirinius. See. I can’t say it. You did. Excellent.

Al: I practiced a lot today.

Anthony: I bet you did, brother. Well done. We don’t name our kids that anymore. We should rectify that.

Al, it’s Christmas day. By the way, what’d you get me for Christmas?

Al: Ooh. It’s in the mail.

Anthony: Like Ed McMahon and my big prize. It’s in the mail. Okay.

Are there any Christmas traditions your family has been doing through the years that you’d be willing to share with our listening audience and what does the Christmas season mean to you?

Al: Alright. I have to give a little bit of background first, because my wife and I did not grow up celebrating Christmas.

It wasn’t part of either of our family’s tradition. And so, when we were married and started having kids, we did discuss what are we going to do as a family? And it’s been an interesting journey trying to figure out what traditions we wanted to establish for our family, because we didn’t come from any tradition.

So, in one sense, it was great because we started with a blank slate. But another sense, it’s hard starting traditions when you don’t even know what to do, what’s going to have meaning or not. And a few things never really stuck. But the two things that have seem to stick for our family is, first off, my wife bought an Advent calendar with cards.

And each day of Advent is a name or title for Jesus, and a passage that goes along with it. So, at dinnertime, during Advent, when we’re done eating, or near the end, one of the kids gets the card and they get to read the name, and then they get to read the passage and whatever discussions might come from that.

So that’s been enjoyable. And then because the cards, we then hang up around the living room my wife puts a beautiful string around the walls. And then we can see those words, those titles for Jesus, throughout the whole month.

And then when it gets to Christmas Eve time one of the channels here does carols by candlelight. And in Melbourne they put on this huge concert singing hymns and carols. And a lot of people in Melbourne will go to that and sit in the park. And you have to remember that here in December, it’s summertime, so it’s usually pretty good, warm weather so people can bring their picnic blankets and sit out.

And in our family, my wife’s a great cook and she makes homemade fudge, and she’ll make some chocolate fondue and we have strawberries, and we have fudge and some other neat little snacks, and we’ll just put on the carols by candlelight. And they sing songs like Holy Night, O Jerusalem. They do the Hallelujah Chorus from the Handel’s Messiah. And so, you get some of the top artists from Australia singing that night. And we get to sit back, enjoy some lovely food and enjoy some wonderful carols.

However, last week I did see a post that in Iceland, on Christmas Eve, they exchange books and then spend the rest of the night reading and eating chocolate. So that might be something we need to incorporate into our night. I wouldn’t mind doing that, doing a bit of reading that night.

Anthony: Speaking of chocolate, you mentioned chocolate fondue. What time should we show up at your house? We’re invited, right?

Al: About 7:30pm it should be all ready. We’re done with dinner and my wife’s set it all out, so you’re all welcome. 7:30 my house.

Anthony: Y’all come. I love it.

The passage mentions that Jesus, the firstborn child, was wrapped snugly. And sometimes I wonder, as we think about a nativity scene, it can be a bit sanitized and glamorized. Does it do a disservice to the depths our Lord humbly submitted himself to the human condition?

I’m curious for your thoughts.

Al: I would agree that it does. Again, my very smart wife says that when she became a mom, this whole passage changed for her because as a mom, this passage took on new meanings for her with the depths of Jesus’ humility.

He was born a baby, which means that he had to have his diaper or nappy, as we say in Australia, changed for him. He was completely at the mercy of Mary and Joseph to be fed, clothed, provided for. He went through that entire stage of baby and childhood and having to learn to walk and read and write and feed oneself.

So yeah, it can be a disservice when we forget about that. Jesus, really, when we talk about humble, he humbled himself to all of the human experience, including being a baby that has to be completely looked after.

Anthony: Yeah. It’s staggering. Continue.

Al: And one of the other thoughts with the whole sanitizing the service. I think part of it can also be in relation to those of us in the western world because if you think back to Mary’s Magnificat that we talked about, she talks about it with Jesus coming, it’s a reversal.

It’s God turning an upside-down world right side up. However, those of us in first world countries sometimes forget that we are the ones who can be proud. We are the ones that can be powerful. We are the ones that have full bellies.

So, I’m talking here to myself, that this inflection that I need to think about is maybe this good news of the poor being fed and the rich going away empty-handed, isn’t the sanitized good news that we in prosperous countries make it out to be? In the humility of Jesus’ birth, the manger of animals, the nobody’s involved in Jesus’ birth, it’s also a time for us for reflection, a time to stop and ask, is our part in this birth narrative maybe different than we assume?

Think about who is at the birth and who is it? First, notice who is not there? No Caesar, no King Herod, no chief priest from the temple. No army general. No politicians, none of the rich and famous. None of those that we usually would, in our current culture, that we think are important, having status worldly leaders.

But notice who is there, Joseph and Mary, two nobodies from Nazareth. No one had ever heard of them up to this point. And until Jesus had his ministry and the disciples and apostles start sharing the good news, after Jesus has risen and then some of them start writing down this Gospels good news, we would’ve never have known of Joseph and Mary.

Just two people having a baby. That happens all the time. And then you have these unnamed shepherds. They were the nomads at the time, right? They’d be our modern-day immigrants who are willing to work for less than minimum wage. They’re just wandering from job to job, living out in the fields with the sheep, no hot running water.

And then eight days later, Jesus is presented at the temple and there’s a guy named, Simian, and there’s an old lady named, Anna. These are the people that get to witness the birth of humanity’s salvation in the person of Jesus Christ. It’s witnessed by a bunch of nobodies.

And the who’s who of Judea and the Roman Empire, they’re nowhere to be found. They’re off running the world, or at least think they are. And yet the King is born, and they’re too busy doing their other things.

So, it’s this chance, as you talk about, we can have this little manger scene and the snow falling and the shepherds around and the wise men in these little manger scenes, narratives like we put up.

But yeah, we can start to sanitize it and think of the joy of a baby born. But it’s also a comeuppance. It’s one of these things where we need to stop, reflect and go, are we actually there with Joseph and Mary and baby?

Or are we actually with the Caesars and the Herods in the palaces and off doing our own thing and a bit too busy during this season to actually stop and go, oh, wait a minute, the King has been born and he’s humbled himself. And that’s what he wants us to follow in his footsteps in all that too. Be that humble one. And if we’re the rich and we got the full bellies, then we need to be maybe pausing going, who do I need to feed?

Who is out there that I can help? Who is out there that I can give comfort to, warmth to? Who’s out there that might be sleeping in a manger that I can open my home to? And I’m talking metaphorically here but some might be literally, might be figuratively, of how can we look out for the Joseph and Marys out there and invite them and let them belong and look after them?

Anthony: That’s quite insightful, what you said, who’s there and who’s not. And that brought me to this moment of thinking about the incarnation, the birth of the Godchild. That with it is certainly the grace that God showed up on the scene, pitched the tent, as you said earlier.

But also comes with it a judgment that we needed a savior born to us. We needed a King. And so that’s what I hear you reflecting on. That as we look at the story — often when we come to a narrative scripture, if we think of ourselves in the story, have you noticed, Al, we generally make ourselves the good guys?

We’re with the good guys, we’re the ones doing it right. But what I hear you saying is really an important thing, that we also need to stop and reflect. Where am I and truly in this story? Would I be there? Would I come to see the wondrous, joyous news that’s good for all people?

Or would I be too busy doing my own thing, building my own kingdom when the King of the true kingdom has shown up on the scene? Thank you for that word.

It’s important for us to reflect on even at a time like Christmas and that’s what grace teaches us to do, right? We sometimes think of grace as even warm and fuzzy, like we think of the Christ child being born in a manger, but grace tells us to say no to ungodliness, right? That’s what Titus teaches us. So, it’s a truth-telling grace that we get to reflect upon.

I’m struck that in verse 9, the people were terrified when God showed up on the scene, when the Lord’s angel or his representative, I should say, showed up on the scene. And we see that often in scripture that people are terrified when something of the glory of heaven shows up.

Tell us about that. What’s going on?

Al: In contemplating on this and doing a little reading, I came across a quote by A.W. Tozer, who observed about 50 years ago, he said, “The greatness of God rouses fear within us, but his goodness encourages us not to be afraid of him. To fear and not be afraid, that is the paradox of faith.”

And I thought, yeah, he just captured that really well. And the image that came to my mind is the one of a moth being drawn to one of those bug zaps, right? The light is brilliant from a moth perspective. It’s this brilliant light, and it draws them off to it, but it’s also being drawn to its death.

In Luke’s Gospel story of the calling of the disciples, after the miracle catch of fish, Peter’s first exclamation is, go away from me, Lord, I am a sinful man. And yet it says, the disciples got out of the boat and followed Jesus. So, he says to go away from me, I’m sinful. But then he follows Jesus.

So, we get a glimpse of the glory of God, and we see simultaneously God’s goodness, God’s holy love, God’s all-consuming love, and our sinfulness embedded in our very core and our complete destruction if in our current bodies, we were to encounter the full glory of God. God’s all-consuming love means that He wants all of us. Not one part is left to our own. C.S. Lewis calls this the intolerable compliment, that God is not willing to let any part of us, no dark corner, no little bit not be redeemed and reconciled to him.

Sometimes we want to compromise with God and say, Okay, I’ll give you this part of my life, but let me keep control of this part of my life. We either think we know better how to run that part of our life, or we like that part of our life the way it is. And we’re afraid God’s just going to mess it up if he gets his hands on it. He’ll want to purify us and there goes our fun.

But the only way to truly live into the abundant life that God has for us is to submit our entire lives to every part. And God won’t be satisfied unless he has every part. When we get a glimpse of that all-consuming love, we recognize that it truly is all-consuming. Like a refiner’s fire. All our impurities are going to be melted away until we are the masterpiece that, that great artist God has designed each and every one of us to be.

One of my favorite passages is Ephesian 2, and in the New Living translation it calls us God’s masterpiece. He is the master artist and each of one of us is a masterpiece, and he won’t finish with us until we are fully done. We are the masterpiece he designed us to be.

And what’s encouraging in this passage is even though the shepherds were frightened, they’re invited to witness the birth of Jesus. So even in our fear, God tells us, do not be afraid because what he has planned for us is an invitation. He’s inviting us to join in with the love that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always been participating in for all time and always will.

So, it’s an invitation. It’s terrifying because he’s going to refine us so that we can participate in it. But once that masterpiece is done, when each and every one of us is done, we will get to fully participate in that love for all time.

I love what Tozer said. It’s just the paradox of this greatness of God. But there’s also his encouragement. Do not be afraid. I heard one time that’s the most often quoted, that’s the most often cited command in the Bible. Do not be afraid because he doesn’t want us to fear. He wants us to live, submit, and live into this perfect love that he has designed for us.

Anthony: That’s a good way to end. And I’m looking at verse 14. Glory to God in heaven and on the earth. Peace among those whom he favors.

He favors you, friends. Merry Christmas to you all. Al, it’s been a joy having you on the podcast today. Merry Christmas to you and your family. Thank you so much for the keen insights by the Spirit that you provided for us here today.

And I also want to thank our fine producer, Reuel Enerio, and our transcriber, Elizabeth Mullins. They do a fantastic job, which makes this podcast possible.

Brother, I love you. You are a beloved child of the living God, and as is our tradition on the Gospel Reverb podcast, we’d love to end with prayer, and I know you’d like to share benediction as well.

Al: Yes. And let me just say again, thank you for having me on this podcast. I love listening to Gospel Reverb and now to actually be a part of it in this way, I just really appreciate it. And if I may also say back to you, Anthony, you are a beloved son of the Father and how wonderful that is. And a Merry Christmas to you and to all our listeners as well.

And yeah, if you would join me in prayer.

Loving God, we give you thanks. We thank you so much for who you are. We thank you that you continue to reveal to us who you are. And in that process, we learn who we are. We’re your beloved in Christ. We are your beloved sons and daughters. And we just thank you for these scriptures, these holy scriptures which you’ve given us, so that we can reflect and draw deeper into that relationship with you.

I just pray for those that will be reflecting on these passages and sharing them and teaching from them over the month of Advent. I just pray that your Holy Spirit guides them and gives them your words so that in each of their messages and in their teachings, they bring glory to you.

And we just pray this in Jesus’ name.

And now may the God of hope, the Lord of love, and the Spirit of comfort, fill all of you with joy, peace, hope, and love, so that it fills and overflows from you into others this advent season. Amen.

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