Speaking of Life 5048 | No Exception to the Rule
This week we’re sharing a Speaking of Life message from our archive as a supplemental resource. We encourage you to use this for reflection and preparation, or small group discussion. For your worship gathering, consider how a call to worship from a local voice or contextualized introduction to the theme might serve your congregation well.
Watch video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7FlbuJN170
Program Transcript
Speaking of Life 5048 | No Exception to the Rule
Greg Williams
The Main Ingredient was an American soul and R&B band best known for their hit song, “Everybody Plays the Fool.” Although the song is about unrequited love, its refrain alone speaks to us all.
“Everybody plays the fool sometime
There’s no exception to the rule”
That’s hard to argue with. I’m sure we can all remember some scenario of being played a fool. It comes with a feeling of shame and embarrassment along with the real cost we had to pay for falling for some deceitful scheme. An experienced con artist or unscrupulous salesperson has claimed many a victim with their devious tactics. Sooner or later, the song will prove to be true, “Everybody plays the fool sometime.”
However, for the Christian, we know the song is not completely true. There does stand among us one “exception to the rule.” And that exception is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus knew we would be no match for the deceit and fraud of the devil. So, he stands in for us as the one who does not play the fool.
One Gospel story illustrates this with Jesus being put in a no-win spot. It begins with the Pharisees and the Herodians conspiring together; these are two groups who are typically opposed to one another. They device a trick question about paying the Roman tax that will put Jesus walking a tightrope between the Roman authorities and the Jewish people.
After an attempt to butter Jesus up with flattery, they lay out their trick question. Let’s listen in to see how Jesus answers:
“Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.”
Matthew 22:17-22 (ESV)
Notice first that Jesus was not tricked. He was aware of their intent to trap him. We often only become aware by hindsight. He then calls them out for who they are, “hypocrites.” Jesus is not afraid to call out those who yield power and influence.
Jesus has answered in a way that avoids being accused of subversion to the Roman empire, while at the same time affirming the Jewish belief of the allegiance that only belongs to the One in whose image they are made.
And he does all this while presenting us with the choice we must all make. Do we give ourselves over to the manipulating, and deceitful ways of this world, or do we give ourselves to Jesus, God’s own Son who is our High Priest?
In the end, we can trust that our High Priest will walk back all the former times that we played the fool, redeeming us and leaving us in amazement as well. And on this note the song rings true: There’s no exception to the rule.
I’m Greg Williams, Speaking of Life.
Program Transcript
Speaking of Life 5048 | No Exception to the Rule
Greg Williams
The Main Ingredient was an American soul and R&B band best known for their hit song, “Everybody Plays the Fool.” Although the song is about unrequited love, its refrain alone speaks to us all.
“Everybody plays the fool sometime
There’s no exception to the rule”
That’s hard to argue with. I’m sure we can all remember some scenario of being played a fool. It comes with a feeling of shame and embarrassment along with the real cost we had to pay for falling for some deceitful scheme. An experienced con artist or unscrupulous salesperson has claimed many a victim with their devious tactics. Sooner or later, the song will prove to be true, “Everybody plays the fool sometime.”
However, for the Christian, we know the song is not completely true. There does stand among us one “exception to the rule.” And that exception is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus knew we would be no match for the deceit and fraud of the devil. So, he stands in for us as the one who does not play the fool.
One Gospel story illustrates this with Jesus being put in a no-win spot. It begins with the Pharisees and the Herodians conspiring together; these are two groups who are typically opposed to one another. They device a trick question about paying the Roman tax that will put Jesus walking a tightrope between the Roman authorities and the Jewish people.
After an attempt to butter Jesus up with flattery, they lay out their trick question. Let’s listen in to see how Jesus answers:
“Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.”
Matthew 22:17-22 (ESV)
Notice first that Jesus was not tricked. He was aware of their intent to trap him. We often only become aware by hindsight. He then calls them out for who they are, “hypocrites.” Jesus is not afraid to call out those who yield power and influence.
Jesus has answered in a way that avoids being accused of subversion to the Roman empire, while at the same time affirming the Jewish belief of the allegiance that only belongs to the One in whose image they are made.
And he does all this while presenting us with the choice we must all make. Do we give ourselves over to the manipulating, and deceitful ways of this world, or do we give ourselves to Jesus, God’s own Son who is our High Priest?
In the end, we can trust that our High Priest will walk back all the former times that we played the fool, redeeming us and leaving us in amazement as well. And on this note the song rings true: There’s no exception to the rule.
I’m Greg Williams, Speaking of Life.
Psalm 99:1–9 • Exodus 33:12–23 • 1 Thessalonians 1:1–10 • Matthew 22:15–22
This week’s theme is God is with us. In Psalm 99, the psalmist brings praise to God and instructs the hearers of the psalm to worship him. The psalmist recalls the ways God has been with his people throughout history. In Exodus 33:12–23, Moses receives assurance from God that his presence will go with them on the rest of their journey through the wilderness, and God reveals to Moses the goodness that is found in his presence. In 1 Thessalonians 1:1–10, Paul speaks of the present Holy Spirit and the role of the Holy Spirit in forming God’s people. In Matthew 22:15–22, Jesus responds to those who misunderstand his presence and attempt to trap him in his own teachings.
Reminder: This introductory paragraph is intended to show how the four RCL selections for this week are connected and to assist the preacher prepare the sermon. It is not intended to be included in the sermon.
How to use this sermon resource.
God is With Us
Exodus 33:12–23 ESV
Last week we read about the Israelites creating a golden calf to worship while Moses was away talking with God. The calf was likely a way for the Israelites to relate to God in a more familiar way, but this idol could not represent God. It was lifeless, created by human hands, and unable to be in relationship. Doing this not only violated one of the commandments they had just received from God, but it reflected a deep misunderstanding about who God is. God is alive and dynamic. He is relational in his very nature, as Father, Son, and Spirit in relationship as one triune God. God wants relationship with his people. He cannot be contained and shaped to fit into human frames of understanding.
God is upset by what his people have done. He will remain faithful to his people, but he informs Moses that he will send his angel with them for the rest of the journey instead of going with them himself as originally planned. But Moses is not satisfied with this solution. He wants assurance that God will go with them.
12 Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”
14 The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”
15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”
17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”
18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”
19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.” Exodus 33:12–23 NIV
Moses presses God for confidence that God will truly go with them. With each petition, he seeks a fuller assurance of God’s commitment. First, Moses appeals to the favor he has found with God and asks God to teach him his ways, to show him what to do, so that he can lead the people well and continue to walk in that favor.
God confirms that he will go with Moses and give him rest. But this is not enough for Moses. He wants to know that God will be not just with him, but with the people. So, his next petition is expanded to include the people. How can the people be distinguished as God’s people if his presence is not with them?
Moses’ request is bold, but it is not disconnected from what God has already revealed about himself during Israel’s journey. God has demonstrated his desire to be with his people. He has revealed that he is relational, and that relationship is central to learning what it means to be God’s people. He has also shown that attempts to make God manageable — attempts that diminish his dynamic, living nature and the relationship he initiates with his people — are severe violations. In other words, God himself has been teaching Moses and the people that his presence is what marks them as his own.
So, Moses is bold, but he is not arguing from mere human understanding or personal preference. Moses bases his petitions in God’s character as seen in what he has already said and done. Moses reminds God of his past saving acts. He is speaking from what God has already revealed, and because of that, he refuses to move forward in any other way.
And God answers: he will go with the people, just as Moses has asked.
Then Moses goes even further. Perhaps it feels almost too bold: Moses asks to see God’s glory. After pleading for God’s presence, why does he now ask for God’s glory?
Throughout this conversation, Moses has been pleading for God’s presence to go with Israel because God’s presence is what sets Israel apart from every other nation. But now that God has promised to go with them, Moses asks for something more: “Show me your glory.”
This is not a request for a spectacular display simply to satisfy his curiosity. Moses longs for the deepest assurance possible that the God who promises to go with them really is with them. It is almost as though Moses is saying, “You have promised to go with us. Allow me to know you more deeply. Let me see who you truly are.“
God’s response is remarkable.
Moses asks to see God’s glory, but God replies, “I will cause all my goodness to pass before you.”
God doesn’t ignore Moses’ request. He defines it. God’s glory is not merely overwhelming brilliance or terrifying power. His glory is the visible expression of who he truly is. When God reveals his glory, he reveals his goodness. He makes his character known.
Once again, we see God’s desire to be known. God is not interested in simply convincing Moses that he exists or proving that he is powerful. He wants Moses to know him personally. It is one thing to witness God’s power. It is another thing to know God’s heart.
God tells Moses that he will proclaim his name as he passes by. In the ancient world, a name represented someone’s character and identity. God reveals not just that he is present, but what kind of God is present.
God declares, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion” (Exodus 33:19 NIV).
Then, in the next chapter, God says:
5 The Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. 6 The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, Exodus 34:5–6 ESV
When God has the opportunity to introduce himself, he leads with mercy, compassion, grace, patience, steadfast love, and faithfulness. His glory is revealed through the beauty of his character. Mercy, by its very nature, cannot be earned. It flows from God’s own goodness.
In a sense, Moses asks, “Let me see your glory,” and God replies, “I will show you who I am.” This is the assurance Moses truly needs.
God’s presence can never be separated from God’s character. The promise that God will go with Israel is trustworthy precisely because of who God is. He will not abandon his people because he is faithful. He will not consume them because he is merciful. His presence is an expression of his character.
This same connection between presence and character has been unfolding throughout Israel’s wilderness journey.
Again and again, the people question whether God is really with them because they misunderstand who he is. Later, while waiting for Moses, they build the golden calf because they want a god they can see and control. They mistake God’s apparent absence for abandonment, and they try to manufacture a presence they can manage.
Their problem is not simply that they misunderstand God’s presence. They misunderstand God’s character.
Here, God begins to heal that misunderstanding by tying the two together.
Moses asks to see God, and God reveals both his presence and his character together. The God, who is with Israel, is the God whose goodness, mercy, and steadfast love define everything he does.
God allows Moses to experience as much of his glory as a human being can bear. Moses cannot see God’s face and live, so God himself provides protection. He places Moses in the cleft of the rock, covers him with his hand, and allows his goodness to pass by.
Even in revealing his glory, God acts according to his character. The God whose glory Moses longs to see is already displaying that glory — in mercy, care, and gracious protection.
Like the people of Israel traveling through the wilderness, we may find ourselves asking the same questions: God, are you with us? God, are you good? If you are here, then why are these terrible things happening? How can I be who you want me to be if you don’t go with me? Is it safe to be in your presence? Why can’t you be present in a way that feels more understandable or manageable to me?
Jesus Christ is the complete answer to these questions of God’s presence and God’s character.
Jesus is our greatest assurance that God is with us. John, a disciple of Jesus, writes in his Gospel account of Jesus’ life:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. … The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1–2; 14 NIV
Jesus is God with us. Not with us in an abstract sense. Jesus is God with us in the flesh. Jesus is God with us, as close as our very humanity, our very breath. In Jesus the presence of God has been united with humanity. And we have seen his glory.
This is not like Moses in the cleft of a mountain, protected by God’s hand, and only able to see his back. In Jesus, God answers once and for all not only the question of his presence, but also the question of his character. We have seen his glory face to face in Jesus Christ. Jesus has made God fully known as God’s complete self-revelation.
In Jesus, God inhabits the fullness of the human experience. He dies a human death and rises to life in a glorified human body. He sits at the right hand of God the Father. God’s presence is undeniably tied to humanity, and it is not something that can be reversed. Jesus cannot leave us any more than he can leave his very self. He has forever tied his presence, his very life, into humanity.
Not only does God make himself present to us in Jesus, but he also takes our humanity with him as he participates in his perfect relationship with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. He brings us into the presence of the triune God. He brings God to us and us to God. He is the yes and amen on behalf of all of humanity to the invitation to draw close to God. No more will humanity back away in fear at God’s invitation to draw close, like the people did at Mt. Sinai. We have already been drawn close to God in Jesus Christ.
And he sends the Holy Spirit to guide us and dwell within us. He has chosen us to be his dwelling place. No longer a tabernacle built by human hands, even under God’s direction. He will dwell within his people.
The assurance of God’s presence in Jesus gives us a lens through which to see the entire world. In Jesus, God has made himself present to all people. This changes the way we see and relate to people. God is with every person that we interact with. Jesus has brought every person into the presence of the triune God. Regardless of our own assessments of a person or their situation, we know that God is with them.
In Jesus, every broken and desperate situation is brought into the presence of God. Because of Jesus, no doubt, no rejection, no misunderstanding, no mistake, no sin can separate us from the presence of God. This invites us into a worldview and a way of relating to people that is filled with the dynamic life and hope of Jesus.
When we enter times of trial, when we are overwhelmed by the state of the world, when we are experiencing our worst days, and when we are unsure whether God is there, God gives us a strong answer in Jesus Christ. Yes, God is with us. He will always be. And not only is he with us, but he also wants to be with us, and he wants to be known by us. He shares himself with us, revealing his nature as merciful, compassionate, full of grace and truth. And the Holy Spirit is given to us to continue drawing us into this reality, forming us in the presence of God, and sustaining us until the day God’s kingdom is fully established on this earth.
In that time, all humanity will be able to experience the fullness of God’s presence and character. Until that time, may it be enough to trust that God is with us every step of the way.
Today is our last Sunday in the book of Exodus. Over these past nine weeks, we’ve walked with Israel from the oppression of Egypt to Mt. Sinai and beyond. We’ve watched God quietly at work before anyone could see it. We’ve seen him come down to rescue his people, reveal his name, make himself known, provide daily bread, shape a people for himself, patiently bear with their failures, and promise his own presence to accompany them every step of the journey. Again and again, Exodus has reminded us that the story is never ultimately about Israel’s strength, Moses’ leadership, or even Pharaoh’s opposition. It is about the faithfulness of God. When his people were trapped, he made a way. When they forgot, he remembered. When they grumbled, he remained gracious. When they disobeyed, he forgave them. When they failed, he did not abandon them. Throughout every chapter, we’ve discovered the same God — a God who keeps his promises because that is who he is.
And as we’ve said throughout this series, Exodus is ultimately our story because it points us to Jesus. Jesus is our greater Exodus. He is the One who came down to rescue us from a slavery deeper than Egypt, passed through death on our behalf, brought us into a new covenant, formed us into his kingdom community, and now goes with us by his Spirit. The journey of Israel reminds us that following God is often a wilderness journey where faith is formed one day at a time. Yet the same God who led Israel has not changed. He is still rescuing. He is still revealing himself. He is still patiently forming a people who reflect his life to the world. As we leave Exodus behind and continue our own journey, may we do so with confidence — not because we always know where we’re going, but because we know the One who goes with us. Thanks be to God.
God is with us.
Matthew Hester—Year A Proper 24
Listen to audio: https://cloud.gci.org/dl/GReverb/GR080-Hester-YearA-Proper24.mp3
Program Transcript
Matthew Hester—Year A Proper 24
Anthony:
All right, let’s transition to our next text. Exodus chapter 33:12–23. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 24 in Ordinary Time, October 18.
Moses said to the LORD, “See, you have said to me, ‘Bring up this people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. Yet you have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.’ 13 Now if I have found favor in your sight, please show me your ways, so that I may know you and find favor in your sight. Consider, too, that this nation is your people.” 14 He said, “My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” 15 And he said to him, “If your presence will not go, do not bring us up from here. 16 For how shall it be known that I have found favor in your sight, I and your people, unless you go with us? In this way, we shall be distinct, I and your people, from every people on the face of the earth.” 17 The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have asked, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” 18 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you the name, ‘The LORD,’ and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one shall see me and live.” 21 And the LORD continued, “See, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by; 23 then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
There’s a lot going on here. A lot to talk about. So, Moses insists that Israel cannot move forward unless God’s presence goes with them. Now, we believe, don’t we, Matthew, that God is omnipresent. So, we believe God is always present to us, always going with us, but I wonder, is there something that we can learn about Moses’ intention of not moving before God moves, and how might that intention inform the way we understand our participation in God’s mission to the world?
[00:42:47] Matthew: Oh, yeah. I think it’s helpful for us to distinguish between God’s presence and our conscious participation in that presence.
Anthony: Tell me more.
Matthew: Yeah, as you mentioned in, as you mentioned in the question yes, God is truly omnipresent. We, we agree. So, Moses isn’t trying to convince an absent God to become present. It’s impossible.
Psalm 139 will eventually say, “Where can I even go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?” Paul is going to say later in Acts 17, “In him we live and move and have our being.” So, there is no outside of the presence of God. So, there’s nowhere Israel could go where God’s not.
But what I believe is being revealed here is something deeper, because Moses doesn’t just want to arrive at the destination. He wants their movement to arise from communion. And that’s something I’ve really been leaning into as of late: the distinction between union and communion. Union is what God establishes, communion is how we participate.
And I think that’s such an important distinction, because sometimes, I’ve done it myself, we talk about waiting for God to move. And again, it’s actually funny, just to use a little bit of logic, as though God is inactive, as though we’re waiting for him to finally do something. But I wonder if the deeper invitation is actually learning to discern the movement of God that is already occurring …
Anthony: There you go.
[00:44:21] Matthew: … and then participate in it. Again, that’s the communion of participation. So, that’s how I understand mission. Like mission isn’t primarily our great idea that we ask God to bless. No, mission begins in God. And so, the theological word, missio Dei, it captures this beautifully: the mission of God.
The Father sends the Son, the Father and the Son send the Spirit, the Church finds itself swept into that divine movement toward creation. So, we’re not actually bringing God somewhere God isn’t, we’re awakening to what God is already doing there. And for me, that completely changes evangelism and ministry for me.
When I encounter another person, I don’t arrive carrying Jesus into a godless space. That’s what we’ve often imagined. I know I have before. No, Christ is already holding that person’s existence together. Like they … The very fact that they’re standing in front of you means they’re being upheld by the power of his word. He is in all things and through all things, including them. That’s what Colossians says anyway.
And so, my question becomes less how can I get God into this situation, and it’s more like, “Father, what are you already doing here and how can I participate?” And I think that’s a very different posture because it requires listening, it requires discernment, humility, patience. It means, sometimes, refusing to manufacture movement simply because we’re uncomfortable being still. And man, that is such a huge indictment against so much of the Western Church, and I would even say from the charismatic Pentecostal framework. And I can talk about them, they’re my mother tongue, okay? They’re my people.
We’re always in this, let’s just try to … Let’s be still, but I’m not sure I can be still for long because we got to get God on the move. Sometimes you’ll find God moves the most in those moments of what we perceive as stillness.
And so I think Moses essentially is saying here, “I would rather remain in the wilderness with your presence than to arrive in the Promised Land without consciously participating with it.” And for me, that’s profound, because the destination is actually not the point. If you think about it, that getting from Egypt and crossing the Jordan, if we’re not careful, we think crossing the Jordan’s the point.
The point that God is trying to mold within a freed society of people is this: communion.
Anthony: Yeah.
[00:46:48] Matthew: Okay? Let’s navigate this one day at a time, one moment at a time, one meal at a time, one encounter at a time together. And then Jesus embodies it. This is who his Father’s always been, and he says, “The Son can do nothing on His own, but only what He sees the Father doing.”
What is that? It’s actually not divine mimicry. No. It’s participation. That’s what Jesus is saying.
We do this all together, guys. So, Jesus is not inventing ministry. He’s not anxious about it, trying to get his itinerary filled. His life is flowing from that communion with the Father through the Spirit, and that’s the same invitation offered to us.
So, perhaps, maybe it’s more like this. “Don’t move without God’s presence” doesn’t mean God might get left behind. That’s not what we’re saying.
What it means is, don’t become so obsessed with going somewhere for God …
Anthony: That’s right.
[00:47:49] Matthew. … that you forget how to move with God. That’d be the takeaway for me.
[00:47:50] Anthony: That’s such a good word. And it does, it changes the way that you show up in every room, every space. For me, the question is, what are you up to, Lord? In this space, right here in this hospital room, at this birthday party, at this sporting event, in this house of worship ― what are you up to here? Give us eyes to see, Lord, what it is you’re doing. We want to do it with you.
Matthew: Yeah, I would love to participate.
Anthony: Yes.
Matthew: Yeah.
[00:48:18] Anthony: And this is one of the ways Moses wanted to participate. He wanted to see God’s glory. And God responds by revealing his goodness while shielding Moses from what he couldn’t handle the fullness of his presence. So, what does this interaction teach us about the knowability and the mystery of God, and how does God’s self-revelation unveil the intimacy of knowing God with divine transcendence?
Matthew: Yeah, such great questions. You’re already leaning into it here already. Moses asked or says, “Show me your glory,” and God responds, “I’ll make my goodness pass before you.”
Look at that. Moses asked for glory, God reveals goodness. And I think that is significant. Because we imagine divine glory often in these terms of overwhelming power, its brightness, majesty, probably a lot of what the people were scared of, right? The thunder, the transcendence. Those images certainly, they’re there in Scripture. We’re not ignoring them.
But here, when God interprets his own glory and it’s huge, he begins talking about goodness, graciousness, mercy. And again, you follow that trajectory all through Scripture, then you arrive at Jesus, and then John says, “The Word became flesh, lived among us, and we have seen His glory.”
Where? In Jesus. And that is so astonishing to me because the glory Moses could only glimpse, Christians confess has taken on a human face. I’m so glad that Moses’ encounter here was not the end of the story on glory because you look at the answer. God says, “No one can see my face and live.” But then Jesus says, “Whoever seen me has seen the Father.”
So, someone missed it here. Somebody missed it. All of a sudden, Jesus is like, “Wait a second, you guys believe that no one can see Him. I’m telling you, if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father. Behold, here I am.” Here he is. Hebrews calls Jesus the radiance of God’s glory.
[00:50:27] The exact imprint of God’s being. And so we can make a claim like this with this tension here. God is mysterious, but that doesn’t mean God is unknowable. And I think a lot of times we try to categorize those two words together.
Mystery … Listen, there are things about my wife, I’ve been married to my wife, we’re coming up on 25 years. There are still things about her that are mysterious to me.
And that’s part of the beauty of our relationship. But that doesn’t mean I don’t know her. My goodness.
And part of that mystery is the beauty of relationship. And mystery doesn’t mean God is hiding behind Jesus. Maybe, perhaps, he’s actually something completely different.
Jesus reveals God precisely while never exhausting God. I love that thought. And that should be important to us, because sometimes we use divine mystery as a theological escape hatch. And we’ll say things like, “God’s ways aren’t our ways,” right? And then we’ll attribute something horrific to God that looks nothing like Jesus.
So usually that’s what we do. We can’t explain it, so his ways are higher than our ways. But Christian mystery for me ― it can’t mean contradiction. It can mean a lot of things, but it can’t mean contradiction in its truest form. Because this is what I mean ― I may never comprehend God exhaustively, absolutely, but I can know God’s character truly …
Anthony: That’s right.
[00:51:57] Matthew: … because God has made himself known in Christ. So, what does that mean? Jesus, he didn’t reveal a percentage rate of God. It’s not 30%’s good, 70%’s dangerous, and good luck, guys. Again, Paul tells us in him, all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. All the fullness. And so, God’s transcendence doesn’t mean that somewhere behind Jesus there’s another god. It means that God is perfectly revealed in Jesus.
But it also does mean it’s infinitely deeper, greater, more beautiful than I could ever exhaust. So, mystery doesn’t mean that I don’t know who God is. And I think that’s just, it’s an important distinction to make.
Anthony: Oh, that’s so good.
Matthew: Yeah.
[00:52:42] Anthony: Yeah, Eugene Peterson says it like this, “Mystery is not the absence of meaning. It’s the presence of more meaning than we can comprehend.” It’s the depths of exploration in this relationship with God. We know his nature and character in the personal work of Jesus. Eternal life is knowing that, right? Knowing God and his Son, and it’s just plumbing the depths of that goodness, is it not?
[00:53:09]Matthew: Yes. Yeah. And I like to even say it this way and exactly what you said, beautifully stated. I say it this way, mystery doesn’t even create distance. Growing up, I don’t know why I would allow myself to think that way. “Oh, I don’t know something about God, so I must not know him.” No. When we begin to realize mystery doesn’t create distance, it actually invites wonder.
Anthony: Huh, there we go.
[00:53:33] Matthew: And that’s such a huge component of our relational journey is that wonder, and it’s so needed. It is so needed in this day and age. And so, as we have a more clear picture, a more clear representation of who Jesus is, the mystery doesn’t actually disappear. It just becomes more beautiful.
And so, again, back to the start of the question, Moses says, “Show me your glory.” God said, “I’ll show you my goodness.” and ultimately, I think that’s why we can make claims like this, “Hey, God’s goodness has passed before us in human flesh.” So, in the day of Moses it didn’t quite look like what we behold today. In our day, we’ve actually beheld the goodness of God, and his name is Jesus.
Anthony: Amen.
Matthew: And he didn’t just pass before one of us, he passed before all of us.
[00:54:21] Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God. Oh, this is so good. Such a great conversation of this … I love this idea of mystery. Listen, Matthew, we have so much information, don’t we? We’re inundated with information.
And in that I think that we think we know something, and we lose, we can lose sight of just the awe and wonder of who God is. This is not about information. It is about a relationship, and just like you said with your own spouse there’s this ongoing learning about the beauty of who she is. Imagine the depths of that with God.
his is what we’re leaning into, in the awe and wonder of who he is.
All right, let’s transition to our next text. Exodus chapter 33:12–23. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 24 in Ordinary Time, October 18.
Moses said to the LORD, “See, you have said to me, ‘Bring up this people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. Yet you have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.’ 13 Now if I have found favor in your sight, please show me your ways, so that I may know you and find favor in your sight. Consider, too, that this nation is your people.” 14 He said, “My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” 15 And he said to him, “If your presence will not go, do not bring us up from here. 16 For how shall it be known that I have found favor in your sight, I and your people, unless you go with us? In this way, we shall be distinct, I and your people, from every people on the face of the earth.” 17 The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have asked, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” 18 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you the name, ‘The LORD,’ and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one shall see me and live.” 21 And the LORD continued, “See, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by; 23 then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
There’s a lot going on here. A lot to talk about. So, Moses insists that Israel cannot move forward unless God’s presence goes with them. Now, we believe, don’t we, Matthew, that God is omnipresent. So, we believe God is always present to us, always going with us, but I wonder, is there something that we can learn about Moses’ intention of not moving before God moves, and how might that intention inform the way we understand our participation in God’s mission to the world?
Matthew: Oh, yeah. I think it’s helpful for us to distinguish between God’s presence and our conscious participation in that presence.
Anthony: Tell me more.
Matthew: Yeah, as you mentioned in, as you mentioned in the question yes, God is truly omnipresent. We, we agree. So, Moses isn’t trying to convince an absent God to become present. It’s impossible.
Psalm 139 will eventually say, “Where can I even go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?” Paul is going to say later in Acts 17, “In him we live and move and have our being.” So, there is no outside of the presence of God. So, there’s nowhere Israel could go where God’s not.
But what I believe is being revealed here is something deeper, because Moses doesn’t just want to arrive at the destination. He wants their movement to arise from communion. And that’s something I’ve really been leaning into as of late: the distinction between union and communion. Union is what God establishes, communion is how we participate.
And I think that’s such an important distinction, because sometimes, I’ve done it myself, we talk about waiting for God to move. And again, it’s actually funny, just to use a little bit of logic, as though God is inactive, as though we’re waiting for him to finally do something. But I wonder if the deeper invitation is actually learning to discern the movement of God that is already occurring …
Anthony: There you go.
Matthew: … and then participate in it. Again, that’s the communion of participation. So, that’s how I understand mission. Like mission isn’t primarily our great idea that we ask God to bless. No, mission begins in God. And so, the theological word, missio Dei, it captures this beautifully: the mission of God.
The Father sends the Son, the Father and the Son send the Spirit, the Church finds itself swept into that divine movement toward creation. So, we’re not actually bringing God somewhere God isn’t, we’re awakening to what God is already doing there. And for me, that completely changes evangelism and ministry for me.
When I encounter another person, I don’t arrive carrying Jesus into a godless space. That’s what we’ve often imagined. I know I have before. No, Christ is already holding that person’s existence together. Like they … The very fact that they’re standing in front of you means they’re being upheld by the power of his word. He is in all things and through all things, including them. That’s what Colossians says anyway.
And so, my question becomes less how can I get God into this situation, and it’s more like, “Father, what are you already doing here and how can I participate?” And I think that’s a very different posture because it requires listening, it requires discernment, humility, patience. It means, sometimes, refusing to manufacture movement simply because we’re uncomfortable being still. And man, that is such a huge indictment against so much of the Western Church, and I would even say from the charismatic Pentecostal framework. And I can talk about them, they’re my mother tongue, okay? They’re my people.
We’re always in this, let’s just try to … Let’s be still, but I’m not sure I can be still for long because we got to get God on the move. Sometimes you’ll find God moves the most in those moments of what we perceive as stillness.
And so I think Moses essentially is saying here, “I would rather remain in the wilderness with your presence than to arrive in the Promised Land without consciously participating with it.” And for me, that’s profound, because the destination is actually not the point. If you think about it, that getting from Egypt and crossing the Jordan, if we’re not careful, we think crossing the Jordan’s the point.
The point that God is trying to mold within a freed society of people is this: communion.
Anthony: Yeah.
Matthew: Okay? Let’s navigate this one day at a time, one moment at a time, one meal at a time, one encounter at a time together. And then Jesus embodies it. This is who his Father’s always been, and he says, “The Son can do nothing on His own, but only what He sees the Father doing.”
What is that? It’s actually not divine mimicry. No. It’s participation. That’s what Jesus is saying.
We do this all together, guys. So, Jesus is not inventing ministry. He’s not anxious about it, trying to get his itinerary filled. His life is flowing from that communion with the Father through the Spirit, and that’s the same invitation offered to us.
So, perhaps, maybe it’s more like this. “Don’t move without God’s presence” doesn’t mean God might get left behind. That’s not what we’re saying.
What it means is, don’t become so obsessed with going somewhere for God …
Anthony: That’s right.
Matthew. … that you forget how to move with God. That’d be the takeaway for me.
Anthony: That’s such a good word. And it does, it changes the way that you show up in every room, every space. For me, the question is, what are you up to, Lord? In this space, right here in this hospital room, at this birthday party, at this sporting event, in this house of worship ― what are you up to here? Give us eyes to see, Lord, what it is you’re doing. We want to do it with you.
Matthew: Yeah, I would love to participate.
Anthony: Yes.
Matthew: Yeah.
Anthony: And this is one of the ways Moses wanted to participate. He wanted to see God’s glory. And God responds by revealing his goodness while shielding Moses from what he couldn’t handle the fullness of his presence. So, what does this interaction teach us about the knowability and the mystery of God, and how does God’s self-revelation unveil the intimacy of knowing God with divine transcendence?
Matthew: Yeah, such great questions. You’re already leaning into it here already. Moses asked or says, “Show me your glory,” and God responds, “I’ll make my goodness pass before you.”
Look at that. Moses asked for glory, God reveals goodness. And I think that is significant. Because we imagine divine glory often in these terms of overwhelming power, its brightness, majesty, probably a lot of what the people were scared of, right? The thunder, the transcendence. Those images certainly, they’re there in Scripture. We’re not ignoring them.
But here, when God interprets his own glory and it’s huge, he begins talking about goodness, graciousness, mercy. And again, you follow that trajectory all through Scripture, then you arrive at Jesus, and then John says, “The Word became flesh, lived among us, and we have seen His glory.”
Where? In Jesus. And that is so astonishing to me because the glory Moses could only glimpse, Christians confess has taken on a human face. I’m so glad that Moses’ encounter here was not the end of the story on glory because you look at the answer. God says, “No one can see my face and live.” But then Jesus says, “Whoever seen me has seen the Father.”
So, someone missed it here. Somebody missed it. All of a sudden, Jesus is like, “Wait a second, you guys believe that no one can see Him. I’m telling you, if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father. Behold, here I am.” Here he is. Hebrews calls Jesus the radiance of God’s glory.
The exact imprint of God’s being. And so we can make a claim like this with this tension here. God is mysterious, but that doesn’t mean God is unknowable. And I think a lot of times we try to categorize those two words together.
Mystery … Listen, there are things about my wife, I’ve been married to my wife, we’re coming up on 25 years. There are still things about her that are mysterious to me.
And that’s part of the beauty of our relationship. But that doesn’t mean I don’t know her. My goodness.
And part of that mystery is the beauty of relationship. And mystery doesn’t mean God is hiding behind Jesus. Maybe, perhaps, he’s actually something completely different.
Jesus reveals God precisely while never exhausting God. I love that thought. And that should be important to us, because sometimes we use divine mystery as a theological escape hatch. And we’ll say things like, “God’s ways aren’t our ways,” right? And then we’ll attribute something horrific to God that looks nothing like Jesus.
So usually that’s what we do. We can’t explain it, so his ways are higher than our ways. But Christian mystery for me ― it can’t mean contradiction. It can mean a lot of things, but it can’t mean contradiction in its truest form. Because this is what I mean ― I may never comprehend God exhaustively, absolutely, but I can know God’s character truly …
Anthony: That’s right.
Matthew: … because God has made himself known in Christ. So, what does that mean? Jesus, he didn’t reveal a percentage rate of God. It’s not 30%’s good, 70%’s dangerous, and good luck, guys. Again, Paul tells us in him, all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. All the fullness. And so, God’s transcendence doesn’t mean that somewhere behind Jesus there’s another god. It means that God is perfectly revealed in Jesus.
But it also does mean it’s infinitely deeper, greater, more beautiful than I could ever exhaust. So, mystery doesn’t mean that I don’t know who God is. And I think that’s just, it’s an important distinction to make.
Anthony: Oh, that’s so good.
Matthew: Yeah.
Anthony: Yeah, Eugene Peterson says it like this, “Mystery is not the absence of meaning. It’s the presence of more meaning than we can comprehend.” It’s the depths of exploration in this relationship with God. We know his nature and character in the personal work of Jesus. Eternal life is knowing that, right? Knowing God and his Son, and it’s just plumbing the depths of that goodness, is it not?
Matthew: Yes. Yeah. And I like to even say it this way and exactly what you said, beautifully stated. I say it this way, mystery doesn’t even create distance. Growing up, I don’t know why I would allow myself to think that way. “Oh, I don’t know something about God, so I must not know him.” No. When we begin to realize mystery doesn’t create distance, it actually invites wonder.
Anthony: Huh, there we go.
Matthew: And that’s such a huge component of our relational journey is that wonder, and it’s so needed. It is so needed in this day and age. And so, as we have a more clear picture, a more clear representation of who Jesus is, the mystery doesn’t actually disappear. It just becomes more beautiful.
And so, again, back to the start of the question, Moses says, “Show me your glory.” God said, “I’ll show you my goodness.” and ultimately, I think that’s why we can make claims like this, “Hey, God’s goodness has passed before us in human flesh.” So, in the day of Moses it didn’t quite look like what we behold today. In our day, we’ve actually beheld the goodness of God, and his name is Jesus.
Anthony: Amen.
Matthew: And he didn’t just pass before one of us, he passed before all of us.
Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God. Oh, this is so good. Such a great conversation of this … I love this idea of mystery. Listen, Matthew, we have so much information, don’t we? We’re inundated with information.
And in that I think that we think we know something, and we lose, we can lose sight of just the awe and wonder of who God is. This is not about information. It is about a relationship, and just like you said with your own spouse there’s this ongoing learning about the beauty of who she is. Imagine the depths of that with God.
This is what we’re leaning into, in the awe and wonder of who he is.
Program Transcript
Matthew Hester—Year A Proper 24
Anthony:
All right, let’s transition to our next text. Exodus chapter 33:12–23. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 24 in Ordinary Time, October 18.
Moses said to the LORD, “See, you have said to me, ‘Bring up this people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. Yet you have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.’ 13 Now if I have found favor in your sight, please show me your ways, so that I may know you and find favor in your sight. Consider, too, that this nation is your people.” 14 He said, “My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” 15 And he said to him, “If your presence will not go, do not bring us up from here. 16 For how shall it be known that I have found favor in your sight, I and your people, unless you go with us? In this way, we shall be distinct, I and your people, from every people on the face of the earth.” 17 The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have asked, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” 18 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you the name, ‘The LORD,’ and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one shall see me and live.” 21 And the LORD continued, “See, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by; 23 then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
There’s a lot going on here. A lot to talk about. So, Moses insists that Israel cannot move forward unless God’s presence goes with them. Now, we believe, don’t we, Matthew, that God is omnipresent. So, we believe God is always present to us, always going with us, but I wonder, is there something that we can learn about Moses’ intention of not moving before God moves, and how might that intention inform the way we understand our participation in God’s mission to the world?
[00:42:47] Matthew: Oh, yeah. I think it’s helpful for us to distinguish between God’s presence and our conscious participation in that presence.
Anthony: Tell me more.
Matthew: Yeah, as you mentioned in, as you mentioned in the question yes, God is truly omnipresent. We, we agree. So, Moses isn’t trying to convince an absent God to become present. It’s impossible.
Psalm 139 will eventually say, “Where can I even go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?” Paul is going to say later in Acts 17, “In him we live and move and have our being.” So, there is no outside of the presence of God. So, there’s nowhere Israel could go where God’s not.
But what I believe is being revealed here is something deeper, because Moses doesn’t just want to arrive at the destination. He wants their movement to arise from communion. And that’s something I’ve really been leaning into as of late: the distinction between union and communion. Union is what God establishes, communion is how we participate.
And I think that’s such an important distinction, because sometimes, I’ve done it myself, we talk about waiting for God to move. And again, it’s actually funny, just to use a little bit of logic, as though God is inactive, as though we’re waiting for him to finally do something. But I wonder if the deeper invitation is actually learning to discern the movement of God that is already occurring …
Anthony: There you go.
[00:44:21] Matthew: … and then participate in it. Again, that’s the communion of participation. So, that’s how I understand mission. Like mission isn’t primarily our great idea that we ask God to bless. No, mission begins in God. And so, the theological word, missio Dei, it captures this beautifully: the mission of God.
The Father sends the Son, the Father and the Son send the Spirit, the Church finds itself swept into that divine movement toward creation. So, we’re not actually bringing God somewhere God isn’t, we’re awakening to what God is already doing there. And for me, that completely changes evangelism and ministry for me.
When I encounter another person, I don’t arrive carrying Jesus into a godless space. That’s what we’ve often imagined. I know I have before. No, Christ is already holding that person’s existence together. Like they … The very fact that they’re standing in front of you means they’re being upheld by the power of his word. He is in all things and through all things, including them. That’s what Colossians says anyway.
And so, my question becomes less how can I get God into this situation, and it’s more like, “Father, what are you already doing here and how can I participate?” And I think that’s a very different posture because it requires listening, it requires discernment, humility, patience. It means, sometimes, refusing to manufacture movement simply because we’re uncomfortable being still. And man, that is such a huge indictment against so much of the Western Church, and I would even say from the charismatic Pentecostal framework. And I can talk about them, they’re my mother tongue, okay? They’re my people.
We’re always in this, let’s just try to … Let’s be still, but I’m not sure I can be still for long because we got to get God on the move. Sometimes you’ll find God moves the most in those moments of what we perceive as stillness.
And so I think Moses essentially is saying here, “I would rather remain in the wilderness with your presence than to arrive in the Promised Land without consciously participating with it.” And for me, that’s profound, because the destination is actually not the point. If you think about it, that getting from Egypt and crossing the Jordan, if we’re not careful, we think crossing the Jordan’s the point.
The point that God is trying to mold within a freed society of people is this: communion.
Anthony: Yeah.
[00:46:48] Matthew: Okay? Let’s navigate this one day at a time, one moment at a time, one meal at a time, one encounter at a time together. And then Jesus embodies it. This is who his Father’s always been, and he says, “The Son can do nothing on His own, but only what He sees the Father doing.”
What is that? It’s actually not divine mimicry. No. It’s participation. That’s what Jesus is saying.
We do this all together, guys. So, Jesus is not inventing ministry. He’s not anxious about it, trying to get his itinerary filled. His life is flowing from that communion with the Father through the Spirit, and that’s the same invitation offered to us.
So, perhaps, maybe it’s more like this. “Don’t move without God’s presence” doesn’t mean God might get left behind. That’s not what we’re saying.
What it means is, don’t become so obsessed with going somewhere for God …
Anthony: That’s right.
[00:47:49] Matthew. … that you forget how to move with God. That’d be the takeaway for me.
[00:47:50] Anthony: That’s such a good word. And it does, it changes the way that you show up in every room, every space. For me, the question is, what are you up to, Lord? In this space, right here in this hospital room, at this birthday party, at this sporting event, in this house of worship ― what are you up to here? Give us eyes to see, Lord, what it is you’re doing. We want to do it with you.
Matthew: Yeah, I would love to participate.
Anthony: Yes.
Matthew: Yeah.
[00:48:18] Anthony: And this is one of the ways Moses wanted to participate. He wanted to see God’s glory. And God responds by revealing his goodness while shielding Moses from what he couldn’t handle the fullness of his presence. So, what does this interaction teach us about the knowability and the mystery of God, and how does God’s self-revelation unveil the intimacy of knowing God with divine transcendence?
Matthew: Yeah, such great questions. You’re already leaning into it here already. Moses asked or says, “Show me your glory,” and God responds, “I’ll make my goodness pass before you.”
Look at that. Moses asked for glory, God reveals goodness. And I think that is significant. Because we imagine divine glory often in these terms of overwhelming power, its brightness, majesty, probably a lot of what the people were scared of, right? The thunder, the transcendence. Those images certainly, they’re there in Scripture. We’re not ignoring them.
But here, when God interprets his own glory and it’s huge, he begins talking about goodness, graciousness, mercy. And again, you follow that trajectory all through Scripture, then you arrive at Jesus, and then John says, “The Word became flesh, lived among us, and we have seen His glory.”
Where? In Jesus. And that is so astonishing to me because the glory Moses could only glimpse, Christians confess has taken on a human face. I’m so glad that Moses’ encounter here was not the end of the story on glory because you look at the answer. God says, “No one can see my face and live.” But then Jesus says, “Whoever seen me has seen the Father.”
So, someone missed it here. Somebody missed it. All of a sudden, Jesus is like, “Wait a second, you guys believe that no one can see Him. I’m telling you, if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father. Behold, here I am.” Here he is. Hebrews calls Jesus the radiance of God’s glory.
[00:50:27] The exact imprint of God’s being. And so we can make a claim like this with this tension here. God is mysterious, but that doesn’t mean God is unknowable. And I think a lot of times we try to categorize those two words together.
Mystery … Listen, there are things about my wife, I’ve been married to my wife, we’re coming up on 25 years. There are still things about her that are mysterious to me.
And that’s part of the beauty of our relationship. But that doesn’t mean I don’t know her. My goodness.
And part of that mystery is the beauty of relationship. And mystery doesn’t mean God is hiding behind Jesus. Maybe, perhaps, he’s actually something completely different.
Jesus reveals God precisely while never exhausting God. I love that thought. And that should be important to us, because sometimes we use divine mystery as a theological escape hatch. And we’ll say things like, “God’s ways aren’t our ways,” right? And then we’ll attribute something horrific to God that looks nothing like Jesus.
So usually that’s what we do. We can’t explain it, so his ways are higher than our ways. But Christian mystery for me ― it can’t mean contradiction. It can mean a lot of things, but it can’t mean contradiction in its truest form. Because this is what I mean ― I may never comprehend God exhaustively, absolutely, but I can know God’s character truly …
Anthony: That’s right.
[00:51:57] Matthew: … because God has made himself known in Christ. So, what does that mean? Jesus, he didn’t reveal a percentage rate of God. It’s not 30%’s good, 70%’s dangerous, and good luck, guys. Again, Paul tells us in him, all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. All the fullness. And so, God’s transcendence doesn’t mean that somewhere behind Jesus there’s another god. It means that God is perfectly revealed in Jesus.
But it also does mean it’s infinitely deeper, greater, more beautiful than I could ever exhaust. So, mystery doesn’t mean that I don’t know who God is. And I think that’s just, it’s an important distinction to make.
Anthony: Oh, that’s so good.
Matthew: Yeah.
[00:52:42] Anthony: Yeah, Eugene Peterson says it like this, “Mystery is not the absence of meaning. It’s the presence of more meaning than we can comprehend.” It’s the depths of exploration in this relationship with God. We know his nature and character in the personal work of Jesus. Eternal life is knowing that, right? Knowing God and his Son, and it’s just plumbing the depths of that goodness, is it not?
[00:53:09]Matthew: Yes. Yeah. And I like to even say it this way and exactly what you said, beautifully stated. I say it this way, mystery doesn’t even create distance. Growing up, I don’t know why I would allow myself to think that way. “Oh, I don’t know something about God, so I must not know him.” No. When we begin to realize mystery doesn’t create distance, it actually invites wonder.
Anthony: Huh, there we go.
[00:53:33] Matthew: And that’s such a huge component of our relational journey is that wonder, and it’s so needed. It is so needed in this day and age. And so, as we have a more clear picture, a more clear representation of who Jesus is, the mystery doesn’t actually disappear. It just becomes more beautiful.
And so, again, back to the start of the question, Moses says, “Show me your glory.” God said, “I’ll show you my goodness.” and ultimately, I think that’s why we can make claims like this, “Hey, God’s goodness has passed before us in human flesh.” So, in the day of Moses it didn’t quite look like what we behold today. In our day, we’ve actually beheld the goodness of God, and his name is Jesus.
Anthony: Amen.
Matthew: And he didn’t just pass before one of us, he passed before all of us.
[00:54:21] Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God. Oh, this is so good. Such a great conversation of this … I love this idea of mystery. Listen, Matthew, we have so much information, don’t we? We’re inundated with information.
And in that I think that we think we know something, and we lose, we can lose sight of just the awe and wonder of who God is. This is not about information. It is about a relationship, and just like you said with your own spouse there’s this ongoing learning about the beauty of who she is. Imagine the depths of that with God.
his is what we’re leaning into, in the awe and wonder of who he is.
All right, let’s transition to our next text. Exodus chapter 33:12–23. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 24 in Ordinary Time, October 18.
Moses said to the LORD, “See, you have said to me, ‘Bring up this people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. Yet you have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.’ 13 Now if I have found favor in your sight, please show me your ways, so that I may know you and find favor in your sight. Consider, too, that this nation is your people.” 14 He said, “My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” 15 And he said to him, “If your presence will not go, do not bring us up from here. 16 For how shall it be known that I have found favor in your sight, I and your people, unless you go with us? In this way, we shall be distinct, I and your people, from every people on the face of the earth.” 17 The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have asked, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” 18 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you the name, ‘The LORD,’ and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one shall see me and live.” 21 And the LORD continued, “See, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by; 23 then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
There’s a lot going on here. A lot to talk about. So, Moses insists that Israel cannot move forward unless God’s presence goes with them. Now, we believe, don’t we, Matthew, that God is omnipresent. So, we believe God is always present to us, always going with us, but I wonder, is there something that we can learn about Moses’ intention of not moving before God moves, and how might that intention inform the way we understand our participation in God’s mission to the world?
Matthew: Oh, yeah. I think it’s helpful for us to distinguish between God’s presence and our conscious participation in that presence.
Anthony: Tell me more.
Matthew: Yeah, as you mentioned in, as you mentioned in the question yes, God is truly omnipresent. We, we agree. So, Moses isn’t trying to convince an absent God to become present. It’s impossible.
Psalm 139 will eventually say, “Where can I even go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?” Paul is going to say later in Acts 17, “In him we live and move and have our being.” So, there is no outside of the presence of God. So, there’s nowhere Israel could go where God’s not.
But what I believe is being revealed here is something deeper, because Moses doesn’t just want to arrive at the destination. He wants their movement to arise from communion. And that’s something I’ve really been leaning into as of late: the distinction between union and communion. Union is what God establishes, communion is how we participate.
And I think that’s such an important distinction, because sometimes, I’ve done it myself, we talk about waiting for God to move. And again, it’s actually funny, just to use a little bit of logic, as though God is inactive, as though we’re waiting for him to finally do something. But I wonder if the deeper invitation is actually learning to discern the movement of God that is already occurring …
Anthony: There you go.
Matthew: … and then participate in it. Again, that’s the communion of participation. So, that’s how I understand mission. Like mission isn’t primarily our great idea that we ask God to bless. No, mission begins in God. And so, the theological word, missio Dei, it captures this beautifully: the mission of God.
The Father sends the Son, the Father and the Son send the Spirit, the Church finds itself swept into that divine movement toward creation. So, we’re not actually bringing God somewhere God isn’t, we’re awakening to what God is already doing there. And for me, that completely changes evangelism and ministry for me.
When I encounter another person, I don’t arrive carrying Jesus into a godless space. That’s what we’ve often imagined. I know I have before. No, Christ is already holding that person’s existence together. Like they … The very fact that they’re standing in front of you means they’re being upheld by the power of his word. He is in all things and through all things, including them. That’s what Colossians says anyway.
And so, my question becomes less how can I get God into this situation, and it’s more like, “Father, what are you already doing here and how can I participate?” And I think that’s a very different posture because it requires listening, it requires discernment, humility, patience. It means, sometimes, refusing to manufacture movement simply because we’re uncomfortable being still. And man, that is such a huge indictment against so much of the Western Church, and I would even say from the charismatic Pentecostal framework. And I can talk about them, they’re my mother tongue, okay? They’re my people.
We’re always in this, let’s just try to … Let’s be still, but I’m not sure I can be still for long because we got to get God on the move. Sometimes you’ll find God moves the most in those moments of what we perceive as stillness.
And so I think Moses essentially is saying here, “I would rather remain in the wilderness with your presence than to arrive in the Promised Land without consciously participating with it.” And for me, that’s profound, because the destination is actually not the point. If you think about it, that getting from Egypt and crossing the Jordan, if we’re not careful, we think crossing the Jordan’s the point.
The point that God is trying to mold within a freed society of people is this: communion.
Anthony: Yeah.
Matthew: Okay? Let’s navigate this one day at a time, one moment at a time, one meal at a time, one encounter at a time together. And then Jesus embodies it. This is who his Father’s always been, and he says, “The Son can do nothing on His own, but only what He sees the Father doing.”
What is that? It’s actually not divine mimicry. No. It’s participation. That’s what Jesus is saying.
We do this all together, guys. So, Jesus is not inventing ministry. He’s not anxious about it, trying to get his itinerary filled. His life is flowing from that communion with the Father through the Spirit, and that’s the same invitation offered to us.
So, perhaps, maybe it’s more like this. “Don’t move without God’s presence” doesn’t mean God might get left behind. That’s not what we’re saying.
What it means is, don’t become so obsessed with going somewhere for God …
Anthony: That’s right.
Matthew. … that you forget how to move with God. That’d be the takeaway for me.
Anthony: That’s such a good word. And it does, it changes the way that you show up in every room, every space. For me, the question is, what are you up to, Lord? In this space, right here in this hospital room, at this birthday party, at this sporting event, in this house of worship ― what are you up to here? Give us eyes to see, Lord, what it is you’re doing. We want to do it with you.
Matthew: Yeah, I would love to participate.
Anthony: Yes.
Matthew: Yeah.
Anthony: And this is one of the ways Moses wanted to participate. He wanted to see God’s glory. And God responds by revealing his goodness while shielding Moses from what he couldn’t handle the fullness of his presence. So, what does this interaction teach us about the knowability and the mystery of God, and how does God’s self-revelation unveil the intimacy of knowing God with divine transcendence?
Matthew: Yeah, such great questions. You’re already leaning into it here already. Moses asked or says, “Show me your glory,” and God responds, “I’ll make my goodness pass before you.”
Look at that. Moses asked for glory, God reveals goodness. And I think that is significant. Because we imagine divine glory often in these terms of overwhelming power, its brightness, majesty, probably a lot of what the people were scared of, right? The thunder, the transcendence. Those images certainly, they’re there in Scripture. We’re not ignoring them.
But here, when God interprets his own glory and it’s huge, he begins talking about goodness, graciousness, mercy. And again, you follow that trajectory all through Scripture, then you arrive at Jesus, and then John says, “The Word became flesh, lived among us, and we have seen His glory.”
Where? In Jesus. And that is so astonishing to me because the glory Moses could only glimpse, Christians confess has taken on a human face. I’m so glad that Moses’ encounter here was not the end of the story on glory because you look at the answer. God says, “No one can see my face and live.” But then Jesus says, “Whoever seen me has seen the Father.”
So, someone missed it here. Somebody missed it. All of a sudden, Jesus is like, “Wait a second, you guys believe that no one can see Him. I’m telling you, if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father. Behold, here I am.” Here he is. Hebrews calls Jesus the radiance of God’s glory.
The exact imprint of God’s being. And so we can make a claim like this with this tension here. God is mysterious, but that doesn’t mean God is unknowable. And I think a lot of times we try to categorize those two words together.
Mystery … Listen, there are things about my wife, I’ve been married to my wife, we’re coming up on 25 years. There are still things about her that are mysterious to me.
And that’s part of the beauty of our relationship. But that doesn’t mean I don’t know her. My goodness.
And part of that mystery is the beauty of relationship. And mystery doesn’t mean God is hiding behind Jesus. Maybe, perhaps, he’s actually something completely different.
Jesus reveals God precisely while never exhausting God. I love that thought. And that should be important to us, because sometimes we use divine mystery as a theological escape hatch. And we’ll say things like, “God’s ways aren’t our ways,” right? And then we’ll attribute something horrific to God that looks nothing like Jesus.
So usually that’s what we do. We can’t explain it, so his ways are higher than our ways. But Christian mystery for me ― it can’t mean contradiction. It can mean a lot of things, but it can’t mean contradiction in its truest form. Because this is what I mean ― I may never comprehend God exhaustively, absolutely, but I can know God’s character truly …
Anthony: That’s right.
Matthew: … because God has made himself known in Christ. So, what does that mean? Jesus, he didn’t reveal a percentage rate of God. It’s not 30%’s good, 70%’s dangerous, and good luck, guys. Again, Paul tells us in him, all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. All the fullness. And so, God’s transcendence doesn’t mean that somewhere behind Jesus there’s another god. It means that God is perfectly revealed in Jesus.
But it also does mean it’s infinitely deeper, greater, more beautiful than I could ever exhaust. So, mystery doesn’t mean that I don’t know who God is. And I think that’s just, it’s an important distinction to make.
Anthony: Oh, that’s so good.
Matthew: Yeah.
Anthony: Yeah, Eugene Peterson says it like this, “Mystery is not the absence of meaning. It’s the presence of more meaning than we can comprehend.” It’s the depths of exploration in this relationship with God. We know his nature and character in the personal work of Jesus. Eternal life is knowing that, right? Knowing God and his Son, and it’s just plumbing the depths of that goodness, is it not?
Matthew: Yes. Yeah. And I like to even say it this way and exactly what you said, beautifully stated. I say it this way, mystery doesn’t even create distance. Growing up, I don’t know why I would allow myself to think that way. “Oh, I don’t know something about God, so I must not know him.” No. When we begin to realize mystery doesn’t create distance, it actually invites wonder.
Anthony: Huh, there we go.
Matthew: And that’s such a huge component of our relational journey is that wonder, and it’s so needed. It is so needed in this day and age. And so, as we have a more clear picture, a more clear representation of who Jesus is, the mystery doesn’t actually disappear. It just becomes more beautiful.
And so, again, back to the start of the question, Moses says, “Show me your glory.” God said, “I’ll show you my goodness.” and ultimately, I think that’s why we can make claims like this, “Hey, God’s goodness has passed before us in human flesh.” So, in the day of Moses it didn’t quite look like what we behold today. In our day, we’ve actually beheld the goodness of God, and his name is Jesus.
Anthony: Amen.
Matthew: And he didn’t just pass before one of us, he passed before all of us.
Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God. Oh, this is so good. Such a great conversation of this … I love this idea of mystery. Listen, Matthew, we have so much information, don’t we? We’re inundated with information.
And in that I think that we think we know something, and we lose, we can lose sight of just the awe and wonder of who God is. This is not about information. It is about a relationship, and just like you said with your own spouse there’s this ongoing learning about the beauty of who she is. Imagine the depths of that with God.
This is what we’re leaning into, in the awe and wonder of who he is.
Small Group Discussion Questions
- What stands out to you about Moses’ boldness with God?
- Where do you most need assurance that God is with you?
- How does Jesus show us both God’s presence and God’s character?
- How might knowing “God is with us” change the way we see others?
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