Culture Creation w/ Julie Frantz

Welcome to the GC Podcast. A podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

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Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I’m blessed to interview Julie Frantz, pastor of Grace Communion Cincinnati East and West, wife and mom of four. She loves New Mexican food and adventure in all its forms, good, bad, and ugly.

Julie, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s so good to have you on the GC Podcast.

Julie: Thank you, Cara. I’m excited to be here.

[00:00:49] Cara: Yes, and I’m looking forward to the richness of this conversation today. We’re going to be talking about creating culture in our local congregations. The first thing I want to ask is when we talk about the culture of a local congregation, what does that mean to you?

[00:01:06] Julie: When I think of the culture of a local congregation, I think about people—people who have shared life and shared belief and ultimately, we hope and we look for a shared mission and a people that shares their identity in Christ where we together grow and together become who Christ created us to be and who we are in him.

It’s this people coming together unified by Christ. And we develop new rhythms together, a rhythm directed by him and led by him, and we discover as we journey with Christ what those rhythms look like and how those rhythms are expressed within the body. It becomes a beautiful thing—a little bit of chaos and a little bit of beauty and a lot of grace.

[00:02:06] Cara: Yeah, absolutely. I love how you’ve described that. It is a beautiful thing, chaos and beauty and grace and all. This year on GC Podcast, we have explored a lot of different angles on rhythms that are part of healthy church. You mentioned that as part of culture too. So how do our rhythms contribute to creating culture and in the maybe reverse order? How does culture contribute to the rhythms we choose to create?

[00:02:41] Julie: Yeah. Our rhythms within the body of Christ really are part of our discipleship path. It’s learning that new rhythm of who Christ is and who we are in him as a body. And that’s a timely thing.

It takes time and patience and a lot of grace for one another. But it is part of our discipleship process with the Lord. And so that part of becoming and having a consistent rhythm, that’s totally led according to the Lord’s timing. We have a little bit to do with that as far as the consistency and participation.

But really that’s led by the Lord. And what’s interesting about our rhythms and culture is that culture can absolutely challenge the rhythms of a church. And cause us to rethink some of those rhythms and possibly respond differently as culture transforms around us.

But our rhythms are really not controlled by society, but instead led, maintained by the leading of the Holy Spirit. And even though the culture can make us rethink those and make us consider how we participate in those rhythms led by the Holy Spirit, those rhythms are the Holy Spirit’s leading. The culture doesn’t determine how the church lives that out.

And can’t and shouldn’t determine how the church lives that out.

[00:04:26] Cara: Yeah. And I love that you’ve highlighted that those rhythms, in the context of church community and the formation of the culture of church community, those rhythms are formed and led by the Spirit, by who God is.

Because we were stepping in time with his rhythms, with his ways. And so really, we’re being shaped and formed into the culture of his kingdom and who he is versus—and I think that comes in line with what you’re saying—versus all the various different pulls and pushes or different ways of thinking. Culture can come in a thousand different forms, but the rhythms that we’re trying to sync up to are the rhythms of God’s culture that he has for all of his people.

That’s beautifully said, Julie. Like I said, or I just mentioned, culture can come in a lot of different forms, and we’re on this journey that you’ve mentioned of seeking it, syncing up with those rhythms that are led by the Spirit and not necessarily whatever we want to do.

And so, I say this quote unquote church culture—things like church “in speak” or those things that might make us feel like, oh we’re an “in” crowd, or you have to belong to this church club. Sometimes that form of church culture can be a barrier to actually living missionally because it makes this dynamic of an insider / outsider.

But in contrast to that kind of kingdom culture when we’re embracing that everyone belongs. What are some of those ways that as a local congregation, can we check in with ourselves and assess what kind of culture are we cultivating here in our local church community?

[00:06:41] Julie: It it’s interesting this question made me think about a book that I recently read called Positively Irritating by John Ritner, and I think a lot of GCI members are familiar with him. And he’s quoted saying, “We must stop merely inviting the world to church and instead be the church for the world.”

And I think that a lot of culture with church has been trying to get others to come into a space. And when we have the intentionality of discovering who God is, and discovering who we are, as we have our being in him, we start paying attention to some of the things, some of the rhythms that Christ himself had. And we see Christ going. We see Christ going into homes, sitting with not-yet believers.

And when we see that rhythm, and we discover that we have our being in Christ, we can see ourselves a little different than just a place that we invite others to, but becoming a people that go into a world and sit with others where they’re at. And really that church culture kind of fades away when you think about that. We stop being that in club and that changes as we go out and are willing to sit with others. And where we are willing to be the church every day into a space that’s not our own and sit with Christ.

I think that’s really where that church culture, that “church speak,” changes, when we really discover identity in who Jesus is. And that challenges a lot of what church has been and can be.

That place of “come to us, come to our service, come witness.” Jesus actually asked us to witness, asked us to go, and you don’t become this exclusive club if you’re going out into the community and sitting with others.

You become a place that’s very inviting into relationship and inviting into a relationship with Christ. As they sit with us, the kingdom is shared with others. It’s not just a “come to this place and experience the kingdom.” It’s we go and share the kingdom.

So, we have both cultures, I would say, here in Cincinnati. We’re learning. We have a long—and I think most churches may have a long history of just inviting in and not 100 percent understanding the sent-ness that we have as a church, as a body of Christ.

And so, we’re learning that rhythm. I’m not sitting here as an authority on that at all. I’m in that process of learning that rhythm as God is so gracious. and patient and willing to consistently invite and empower us to go sit with neighbor, to sit with strangers, to sit with community, and to be the church. This is a work in progress. And I thank God that he is willing to work and thank God that he is willing to be so gracious with us as a body of Christ, to give us opportunity.

And as we take that opportunity, as we participate in that, what a blessing it is for us!

[00:10:40] Cara: Absolutely. Oh, amen. And a couple of things that you said really jumped out at me. First, you mentioned noticing the rhythms of Jesus. And so again, coming back to this reality of whose rhythms are we being drawn into and whose rhythms are we being captivated by and choosing really to be formed by and to be shaped by?

And then you mentioned, as a people, that you’re being shaped into that sent people. That comes back to even that first question I asked you about culture, you said, you think of people, right? And we don’t have culture without people.

I really love that you mentioned that because it’s not just about us all on our own, right? But it’s about what is God doing with us together as his people, as he shapes all of us together through these rhythms. So, I really loved how you mentioned that, that dynamic of culture, that as we see and are swept up in those rhythms of Jesus, that we as a collective people are changed and are shaped.

And I think that really even connects to that previous question: how do rhythms contribute to creating culture and how does culture contribute to the rhythms we choose to create? Even that example that you gave of it’s a journey and it’s a process, I feel like speaks to that because when you choose to say, yes, Jesus, show us these new rhythms and it’s a process, then as a people, you’re transformed by him. And then your culture shifts and is different. And so, your desires for his rhythms change. And so, you’re more eager to choose his rhythms.

And it’d be like, “oh, we don’t want this inclusive, exclusive; I’m the insider; you’re the outsider; you come to me” kind of thing. And so, it has this beautiful, transformative, cyclical thing that God’s doing that I hear you describe, even just in Cincinnati, in the church community there.

That’s an incredible thing that God is up to, transforming you all and bringing you deeper into his rhythm. So, thank you for sharing that.

[00:13:11] Julie: Yes. And I think we need to be unafraid to do those temperature checks of our congregations, as a people. And say, what is our rhythm right now? What does somebody who isn’t a part of this, what would they say? What do they see?

And I think being willing to ask some of those questions and willing to hear the answer. All right, you don’t attend our church, what do you see? What do you see? You’re not a member of our church, what do you see? And be willing to ask the neighbor, what is your conclusion on who we are as a people?

And although that’s not going to give you a 100 percent accuracy of all things, that’s going to give you a perspective. But I want to know what my neighbor who is not-yet a believer of Christ thinks of the body of Christ that is next door.

I want to know, and Lord, help me to be humble to receive that truth. And it might be hard, and I pray that is a changing rhythm, that we will—as we grow in that mission of joining God—that perspective will change.

And I think that probably depending on who you ask, you might get a little bit different question, but it gives you a gauge to say, what is the message? What is the reality of us being the church in this community? What does that look like to the people that aren’t of the body of Christ?

Because we could always look at it and we have rose colored glasses. Oh, we’re doing pretty good. We’re doing this. Check. We’re doing this. Check. And we can get in that rhythm of I’ve got an outreach going. Check. I’ve got discipleship. Check. I’m doing a good worship service. Check.

And you can make it this checklist and that’s really not what Christ has invited us into, he’s invited us to join him in mission. And that’s relational. That’s not a checklist. And it’s a rhythm set by him. And it’s the church leaning into that and accepting God, you are God. This is your church. You love these people. Give us the heart that you have for these people.

Help us to participate in that and that’s not easy. But it is such a beautiful place to be when we allow that to be who we are as the church. So, I think it takes some hard conversations, but it’s not to tear us down, but to build us up and to make us aware sometimes of what reflection we really are giving as the body of Christ.

[00:16:07] Cara: Julie, that’s such a good word. That is a very practical way that we can, as a community, do that temperature check. How are we growing and being shaped in our rhythms and in our culture? Because I even think culture is something that’s experienced, right? And when you’re knee-deep in your own culture, sometimes there are things that you become so accustomed to that you don’t even necessarily have the awareness to name it.

And so, to ask somebody else, what do you experience when you step into our community, into our church, into our group of people? What is that experience like? And to hear that from your neighbors—is what they described, does it sound like they experience a kingdom culture? What aspects sound like that? What don’t?

I love to travel. And that’s one of the things I love is experiencing different cultures and what aspects of it are—I find God in pieces of all different cultures. You just experience it in a way, when you cross into a culture that’s not your own, that sometimes is hard to explain. Or maybe somebody wouldn’t even be able to describe their own culture because they’ve just lived it and been in it for so long.

Or somebody is able to point out about my culture—I’m from Boston. So sometimes people are like, hey, and I’m like, oh, I didn’t even know that. I didn’t know we did stuff like that. Or we said that like that or whatever. Because it’s something that, that you just experience.

So, to get that perspective, I think that’s a really meaningful thing. And like you said, it’s not to tear us down, but to build us up. Because yet at the end of the day, what do we have to lose?

Jesus is still Lord. And all that might happen is we are able to see something where we can invite him to shape us more deeply into who he is and who he’s called us to be as his church. Yes. Oh, that’s so good, Julie.

[00:18:18] Julie: And I think that just realizing as a body of Christ, the totality of our following Jesus is not summed up on a Sunday service. That’s not the totality of our Christianity, of our faith in Christ. It is not this one day a week that we go to, and we come together and then we go out and nothing matters.

It’s that’s the church is called to be the church, right? And that the church exists day in and day out as we go. And we need to be aware of that reality of who we are in Christ and that can’t just sit inside a church building on Sunday. We want to gather; we want to have worship. We want to have fellowship; we want to celebrate what God is doing, praise his name, worship our Lord. But we also want to be the church every day as we go.

And just recognizing that reality and allowing our hearts to shift from an attender to a participant, and we have a lot of church attendees. We have fewer church participants, but my hope and my desire is that the work the Lord has started here in the congregations, that he’s going to complete that. I have a pretty good resource that tells me he’s going to complete that.

I’m just basing this on that God is working and that he will continue the work he has started, and he is patient and kind and graceful. And he knows where we’re at, and he knows the steps that we struggle to take, and he is willing to walk that journey with us to take those steps.

And as the church, that we would be in a mindset of, this is your church, Lord. I am the church; I am as I go, Lord. Would you, Lord, work through me? Would you show me? Would you guide my steps? Would you give me the words? Would you help me to be the church? He is faithful in that request, even when we don’t know what that looks like, even when we’re afraid to say anything, even when we are afraid to be on that journey with him.

We have to remember it is our faithful God that we are on the journey with, the one who is faithful in his very being, even when we are faithless. And so, I think it’s that mindset of, I’m not an attender of this church. I am the church and I have been sent—just that shift. And that takes time.

Each of us have probably been in that place of, I attend this church. But to shift into that being in Christ and being the church, that’s not easy. But I am convinced that we do not go alone in that, and I am convinced that it is worthwhile.

[00:21:35] Cara: Yes. Oh, that’s just so beautiful, because that gets beyond even what you said earlier just the checklists, right? But it gets into: who are we really in Christ? What is he really drawing us into? Who has he called the church to be?

I love that. And that’s the thing I think when we’re shaped, allow ourselves to be shaped by his rhythms. And it’s more than just, like you said, we show up to church on Sundays and that’s it, but when we’re drawn into his rhythms and his culture. When I think about, as you were saying, when we think about “I am the church instead of just, I go to church.”

The silly parallel that came to mind is I’m not Bostonian just when I’m in Boston, right? Like I’m sitting here in Charlotte and I’m still from Boston because that’s my culture. That’s who I am. That’s what raised me, right? And so, what if we thought the same way about our identity in Christ, about who we are as a church?

It’s not that we go to church, but we are the church. And that’s true wherever we go, every day of the week, like you said, because it’s not just that we go to church or this checklist, but we are the church. That’s our culture. That’s who made us, who raised us. That’s who we are as people. I think that’s a beautiful thing.

And like you said it’s a faithful God. He’s a faithful God who’s bringing us on that journey. So that’s incredible.

[00:23:13] Julie: You think about cultures, and I think that you have been able to step into and experience various cultures. I think one of the coolest things of going into a different culture is the joy of the people to share that culture with you.

I have sat with so many different friends who are from Nigeria or Israel or England and whatnot and they’re so excited to share with me their favorite dishes. Hey, this is something that I grew up with and I, Julie, want you to try this.

And I love to adventure with food. So, to me, that’s a grand adventure to sit at a table and to share the cultural food of a friend. And you think of the excitement that we approach sharing culture with others as the church, believe it or not, with that excitement and more we can share the kingdom of God.

We can sit and share, excited for others to experience and taste and know.

[00:24:21] Cara: I don’t even have anything to say to that. That’s beautiful.

[00:24:27] Julie: I have a lot of food analogy in my way of thinking. I like food a lot, to me that’s like a happy place, yeah, I love it. I love it. The Bible does say, taste and see that the Lord is good.

[00:24:41] Cara: So, I see nothing wrong with that.

And we’re talking about this growth and this process that God is taking us on too, as we shift and come into his rhythms and to embrace his church culture versus maybe our versions of church culture that can be exclusive or whatever else we might make of it.

But I’m wondering, what does it practically look like to make decisions that shift towards this vision culture, this kingdom culture?

[00:25:18] Julie: I think first and foremost we have to realize that because we have our identity in Christ that’s where everything else flows. And this is not something that we do apart from God, and this is not something that we become apart from God.

It is all centered in him. There’s a beautiful book that I am actually journeying through [with] the leadership here in Cincinnati. I’m journeying with them through this book. And it has been a blessing to me. It just allowed me to sit in that place of just deep gratitude and a place of just embracing the sent-ness that God has given me as his child and as part of the church.

And the book is Overflow, and it’s written by Michael Reeves. And he says something in there that’s stuck with me, as the body of Christ, like a place where we start. And this is what he says, “Mission for us is about entering into the gift of life before we have anything to give away.”

When as the body of Christ, we think of joining that mission that Christ has for us, the first part is entering into that gift of life in Christ. That’s the first part. That first part of, you are my God, and I am your child, and my life is in you.

And that’s not a lot of us doing. That’s a lot of us sitting and receiving what the Lord has given. And it’s from that place that everything else flows. And so, it’s really important for the church and the body of Christ to receive from the Lord who they are, to receive the gift that he has given, to allow God to love them, allow God to speak truth, allow God to speak their identity.

And we start from there. And I’m going to quote Overflow one more time from Michael Reeves. He says, “Mission is the overflow of love from the enjoyment of divine fellowship.”

And so, from that place of entering into life with Christ, everything else flows from that. And so that’s where we enter into a vision culture set by the lead of the Holy Spirit, a place where we identify fully in who Jesus is, knowing that we go forth by his strength alone, by his wisdom, led by his will.

And so, we take all of this burden and things that we can put on ourselves—the insecurity of having to perform or having to say the perfect thing—and we step into a place of him being our source and flowing from that. And that changes it all. It changes everything.

It takes it off of us, and we participate in the joy of relationship with God. And mission becomes us telling others about this one whom we love and sharing that. But we can’t enter into this vision culture without first receiving from Christ.

[00:28:45] Cara: Amen. I think that’s foundational. And listeners, I think that’s not to be missed, but that’s where we start because again, otherwise we’re making and nurturing culture after our own image.

And we’re going to do a little bit of that anyways, right? We’re not perfect. We’re still on the side of eternity, but as the church our purpose is to be grown and formed and shaped after God’s image and to bring that on mission into the world. And so, I think that’s really, Julie, such a powerful word, but that’s where we start. It has to be where we start.

[00:29:33] Julie: And  if we jump into mission without that, then we end up with a bunch of people who are exhausted and are spinning the wheels kind of thing.

And you also struggle for participation because it’s not out of relationship with Christ that the mission goes forth. It comes out of our own will and our own strength. And believe it or not, we just don’t have that strength. We don’t have that strength to continue mission to a world. We just don’t have it.

And we weren’t meant to have it apart from God. We weren’t meant to do this journey apart from God. And so, when we go and we try to do that, it doesn’t usually work out very well. And you end up with a lot of burned out participants and it doesn’t flow from our being in Christ. And it’s so important for us as churches to recognize that initial foundation has to be there before we jump into all of this.

And that’s why it can’t be a checklist. It has to be led by the Holy Spirit. Our churches naturally will participate in mission as they receive from Christ their identity and as they discover who our God is, and they join what he is doing. It just takes so much pressure off of the individual too, and it takes the pressure off the church as a whole.

We haven’t been asked to do anything that Jesus isn’t leading, and we haven’t been asked to do anything that he isn’t already giving the strength for.

[00:31:20] Cara: That’s really good. And I’m wondering on that foundation, something that just came to mind that I’m wondering about is one of the things that I think is so beautiful about who our God is. He never runs out of—oh, what’s the word that I’m looking for? He’s just so creative, and expresses who he is in so many different ways and in diversity and in just so many different flavors, right? Even to come back to that food example, there’s just so many ways that who he is can be expressed because he’s just so full and so rich and never ending.

And so, it makes me think about, on that foundation, there are a lot of ways that different flavors or different nuances that a local church’s culture can take shape. And I like to talk about that when we talk about contextualizing local churches. Sometimes I really like to say, what’s the flavor or the personality of the local church on that foundation that you just described.

And then I think about too, when we talk about contextualization, you mentioned earlier, the larger culture doesn’t necessarily dictate what rhythms the church is formed by, but it can be something that we consider, as we think about our rhythms and do that.

And I think that’s part of contextualization, right? Our God is an incarnational God. He calls us into incarnational ministry, a sent ministry. And so, I’m just wondering, what does that look like? Or can it look like as a church discerns, by the leading of the Spirit, its own flavor and contextualizes its unique personality and grows its unique culture in its specific context that God has brought it to?

[00:33:30] Julie: I think it begins with humility and recognizing that God has sprinkled our churches with diversity for a reason and each church does not exist as a carbon copy of the other. I have these two churches in Cincinnati, and they’re very different from one another.

They’ve been sprinkled differently with the diversity that God has placed within our body and also within the community. And we don’t need to approach that diversity as something to eliminate, but something to embrace and something that we rejoice at the diversity that God has given us in culture and in different races and the rhythm of the community that we’re in.

You recognize sometimes people do things differently and that’s where the humility comes of being willing to consider the giftedness that God has brought, the diversity that God has brought. And ask the Lord, how do you see this being expressed? How does this sprinkle our ministry with that goodness? How are you testifying through this circumstance, through this difference that we have here? And just being willing to have that conversation and allow the cultural beauty of your members and of your community to be expressed in the ways that we participate with Christ.

I think sometimes we try to make little carbon copies of each church, and it’s okay this is what church looks like. I think it’s bigger than that because God has created such diversity. It’s not something that we avoid, or it’s not something that we try to change, but it’s with our expression is the body of Christ that diversity is a blessing. That diversity is something that will add season to our community.

And so, if we look at each member as a seasoning that comes together to make that full taste of the kingdom. And it really begins in the thinking of who we are, trusting who God has created us to be, trusting that each member has been gifted according to the Holy Spirit, and this is a part of who we are as a church to the community around us, embracing that and allowing God to lead that expression.

So, I’m not sure if I’ve answered the question quite well, but I think it’s in embracing of this as a gifting from God. And it does not affect the unity that Christ brings. It actually seasons.

[00:36:44] Cara: Yeah, I really like that image of each person is a seasoning of the taste of the kingdom. Because I think that’s an important thing for us to think about when we’re looking at what are some of the healthy rhythms that we can be embracing by the leading of the Spirit that help us to develop a healthy culture as a local congregation, that doesn’t necessarily lead us to, like you said, those carbon copies or a monoculture across the board. But healthy rhythms and healthy culture can look completely diverse while still being built on that foundation of who Christ is and who we are in him because he’s already shown us he’s such a creative God that has created that diversity

And I loved you use that word with. That’s so good. That’s so good.

As we’re coming up on the end of our time together, Julie, what final words of encouragement would you want to leave with our listeners?

[00:37:45] Julie: I would encourage each person in each congregation to trust what God is doing and to know that he is doing something. Our God is not absent in the world. He is actively working, and he is actively inviting us as the church to join that. You know sometimes, we are uncomfortable with that lead. If we would embrace, as a body of Christ, speaking of Jesus in the way that we care for our neighbors and the way that we invite people into our homes and the way that we walk through the neighborhoods and interact. If we would practice speaking of Jesus, and I’m not—sometimes it does look like it verbally sharing the gospel—but so many times it’s in the actions and the way that we approach others and the way that we are willing to listen to hard things, that we are willing to stand unafraid in the brokenness of the world around us.

We have a foundation that we can trust. And so, I just would encourage us to be unafraid. I was recently going through Acts with my teenagers, and we’ve been reading this together. And we were reading about the disciples going and the Sanhedrin council like holding them for a while then letting them go. And they made some threats of, hey, if you keep talking about Jesus, we’re going to come take care of this.

And they go back to the other believers, and they pray. And their prayer is so significant to me! I think as a church, if we just remember this prayer they prayed—and I’m paraphrasing, I’m not reading this verbatim—they didn’t pray that the threat would go away or that God would take away the trial or that God would hold their enemies back or anything of that sort.

They asked the Lord, hey, consider what’s going on with us in this circumstance. And they asked him to give them boldness to continue to witness. And so that would be my prayer for us as the church when we face things that are hard and things that are uncomfortable and things that are sometimes scary to us.

And yes, the world, stuff that’s going on, it can feel very scary. But that we would stand, and we would continue to pray that, Lord, you see what’s going on. Give us, the church, the boldness to witness. Help us, Lord, because we are afraid at times. We are scared to participate. We do allow our fear to stop us so often, but Lord, give us the boldness to speak Jesus to this world and to share what you have given us.

[00:40:44] Cara: Amen. Thank you so much, Julie, for those final words and for this very full and rich conversation. I know that our listeners will get a lot out of it.

But before we finally close this episode, as is our tradition, I do have a couple of fun, random questions for you. And whatever first comes to mind is the right answer.

Okay. Are you ready?

[00:41:12] Julie: Ready or not, here we come, let’s go.

[00:41:15] Cara: That’s right. If you had to be a dinosaur, what kind of dinosaur would you be?

[00:41:21] Julie: How many dinosaurs do I know? You know what? I am fascinated by sharks in like a very real fear, but like a huge respect. So, if this existed and I think there’s evidence it did, the Megalodon.

Here we go. Yeah.

[00:41:38] Cara: Okay. Yes. Very good. Very good. Now I’ll have to go Google what that looks like.

[00:41:45] Julie: A really big shark.

[00:41:47] Cara: Okay. That is very scary. All right. When you’re out and about karaoke and what’s your go to karaoke song?

[00:41:57] Julie: Oh! Brown Eyed Girl.

[00:41:58] Cara: Oh! That’s a good one.

[00:42:01] Julie: It’s the only one I know the words to, and I don’t have a voice that can sing and so that’s not one of the giftings God has given me, but I can let loose and enjoy that song. Yeah.

[00:42:16] Cara: I love that. Grew up on that song. If you had a late night talk show, who would your first guest be?

[00:42:24] Julie: I think I would bring Peter in. I relate with Peter. He is so eager to participate with the Lord, and completely, at times, unaware of all the ways he’s going the wrong way. And I’m like that. I’m like, I want to participate with you, and yet, I don’t know how. And it’s like I just want to, I want to go, and I want to scream from the mountaintops and yet I misstep so often. And I just think that would be a fun conversation because he experienced those things and yet he experienced the grace and restoration of Christ.

And yeah, I just, I think he didn’t give up. He didn’t stop even though being rebuked by Jesus would be really tough to like that would be hard to receive. He continued and I just, I respect that, and I think he would be fun to talk to about that.

[00:43:22] Cara: I agree. I agree. All right. What is the funniest thing that has happened to you this week?

[00:43:31] Julie: I don’t know if you would find this funny, but I laughed so that I didn’t cry. I was at home, and I was getting my sugar down from above my stove and somehow—I live in a house of six and I’ve got teenagers and whatnot and I’m not throwing any blame anywhere, but someone didn’t put the lid on the sugar.

So, when I grabbed it, it slipped, it fell and I had about a pound of sugar in my kitchen and I just started laughing because I’m like, I’m going to cry if I don’t laugh.

[00:44:00] Cara: Yes.

[00:44:05] Julie: And thank God for the vacuum cleaner because that helped the clean up a lot better. So yeah. I laughed and was like, dang it. All right, here we go. We got to roll with these things sometimes.

[00:44:16] Cara: You chose to make it funny. I like that. Yeah.

[00:44:19] Julie: Yes.

[00:44:24] Cara: All right. And last question. Since we learned that you’re a bit of a foodie, what is a food that you really want to try that you haven’t had the chance to yet?

[00:44:35] Julie: I have heard a lot of stories of Scottish food and some people have said it just doesn’t have a lot of flavor and things like that.

And I’m thinking I want to go, and I would love to just sit and [say] throw your best dish at me kind of thing. I have never tried any Scottish food. So, I’d like to. I think Scottish people are amazing, funny. I love their accent and I just want to. That’s a culture I don’t know very much about, and I would love to just experience it. I think that begins with some food sometimes.

[00:45:10] Cara: Oh yeah. Always got to start with the food.

Julie, thank you so much for joining us today. It was a wonderful conversation, and I know our listeners are going to be very blessed. I would love to ask you to end our episode today with praying for our churches, pastors, GCI.

[00:45:33] Julie: Absolutely.

Almighty and gracious Father, we thank you, Lord, that as we gather now, Lord, you are with us. May we know that in the depths of our souls. Lord, we thank you that in this life even when we can struggle and stumble, Lord, you are so faithful.

Help us to remember that as we, as the body of Christ, seek to participate with you. We seek to be the church, and Lord, we don’t always know what that even means. We can have this box and this idea, but Lord, it is your desire, your will, your vision that we seek.

I pray, Lord, that you will help us to lay aside all of our “what that looks like” moments, and to embrace, Lord, what you are leading each and every one of us as a body of Christ.

Help us, Lord, to be courageous, as the early church prayed. Lord, I pray the same for us. I pray, Lord, that we will be courageous and that we will be bold and that we will not be deterred by the things that are scary and hard in this world. But, Lord, that we will have the boldness to continue to share and testify and speak of you.

Lord, you have been so patient and kind, your grace is abundant, help us to know that grace in each and every moment, help us to have that grace for one another, and help us, Lord, to function and to go forth out of our relationship with you, that we will know our strength, we will know our very being is in you, Christ, and so we just thank you, Lord, and just abundantly thankful and grateful, Lord, for You being our God and you calling us into a mission, Lord, that you provide the strength and the resources necessary for.

Dad what a wonderful place it is to be your child and to be loved by you. Help us, Lord, to participate in every way that you give us and every invitation. I pray, Lord, that we all have the courage and boldness to say yes. Help us to have the grace as our churches learn and grow and as our rhythms change.

And as we learn new rhythms, help us to not hold onto things of the past that may be holding us down from stepping into this place with you. Help us to release and to boldly and humbly. Come, Lord. Thank you, God, that you invite us day in and day out. And in Revelation, where it says at the very end that the Spirit says, Come, and the bride says, Come.

Lord, we are the bride. Help us to say, Come. Help us to testify faithfully every day as the church. Lord, thank you. Your grace is abundant. And it is in Jesus name that we pray. Amen.

[00:48:24] Cara: Until next time, folks, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

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We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast.  We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

Grace Areas w/ Dan Rogers

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

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Anthony: Hello friends and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Dan Rogers. Dan is the pastor of Grace Communion Las Vegas and is a professor at Grace Communion Seminary. And until his retirement, he served as the U.S. Superintendent of Ministers for Grace Communion International. And Dan earned a Ph.D. from Union University.

Dan, welcome back to the podcast. And as you are a seminary professor of homiletics, which is the art of preaching, my question for you is this, as we get started, what advice would you give to preachers who desire to take their proclamation of the gospel to a new level?

[00:01:29] Dan: Thank you, first of all, Anthony, for having me on the podcast today, and thank you for that question. Because the first thing I would recommend is to take the homiletics and preaching class at Grace Communion Seminary. That’s a shameless plug, but very important, and I’m very serious in recommending that.

But in addition to that, I would recommend several things. Most preachers know a lot of research and study is necessary to produce a good sermon. However, prayer should never be overlooked nor relegated to a minor role. I think we probably all pray for inspiration upon our preaching, but we should not forget to pray for proper understanding of the pericope we’re going to preach.

We should pray that what we will say will be accurate and truthful, faithful to the meaning of God’s word. We should also pray for the hearing of the word, that people would hear in the message what God wants them to hear, as God wants them to hear it. We should pray as well that God will empower and motivate a response to the preaching, so that hearers can and will apply what they hear into their lives.

And also, of course, pray that God may be glorified by what is preached. But let me emphasize, I think, what is a much-needed point here. I urge all of us as preachers to preach with intensity and passion. And often when I listen to sermons, including my own, I feel that we have not preached with a passion that is appropriate.

And when I say that, preach with a passion of the text, not your own worked up emotion. Bring the written word of life with the passion, emotion, and feelings of the inspired human author. If you’re preaching from the apostle Paul, he’s encouraging, he’s sad, he’s happy, he’s exhorting, he uses diatribe, rhetoric, sarcasm, anger, and that needs to come through in the preaching of the text from the apostle Paul, as well as other writers of the New Testament.

So, I would just say, participate with the Holy Spirit in passionately calling for a response to God’s word and transformation in the lives of the hearers.

[00:03:58] Anthony: What I hear you saying is there should be integrity. That what we say matches the written word that’s been shared to us by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I’m reminded of what Charles Spurgeon said, “It’s not a sermon till we get to Jesus.” It may be a great talk, may be professional, but Jesus is the point. of the sermon.

So, let’s move on to the lectionary passages. That’s why we’ve gathered here today to talk about the four texts in front of us for the month of January.

Mark 1:4-11, “We’re Not Worthy”

John 1:43-51, “Come and See”

Mark 1:14-20, “Follow Me”

1 Corinthians 8:1-13, “Grace Areas”

Let’s pivot to the first pericope of the month. It’s Mark 1:4-11. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition, which is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Baptism of the Lord on January 7.

So, John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. ⁵ And the whole Judean region and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him and were baptized by him in the River Jordan, confessing their sins. ⁶ Now John was clothed with camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. ⁷ He proclaimed, “The one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to stoop down and untie the strap of his sandals. ⁸ I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with^] the Holy Spirit.” ⁹ In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. ¹⁰ And just as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit descending like a dove upon him. ¹¹ And a voice came from the heavens, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.”

Dan, why was Jesus baptized? And what are the theological implications of his baptism?

[00:06:08] Dan: Anthony, I’m glad this program is several hours long, so I can answer your questions fully. But seriously, I’ll try to give brief answers, but please realize these answers in no way will be exhaustive. Jesus’ baptism is often viewed as Jesus acting in solidarity with the people of Judea, as an example for his followers or as an anointing to his offices as prophet, priest, and king at the beginning of his ministry.

But the theological implications of his baptism are that it was a vicarious baptism on our behalf, done in our place and in which we vicariously participate. It was an act of substitution and exchange.

Jesus shared in our fallen humanity and was baptized into repentance, but it was not his own repentance of his own sins, but his repentance on our behalf. We could never repent totally and sufficiently, so he repented on our behalf. Jesus took our fallen nature, our sins upon himself, and gave us his righteousness in a great exchange.

He received the Holy Spirit and his humanity on our behalf, and heaven opened to us, and Jesus stood before the Father for us. He took what was ours and made it his, and he took what was his and made it ours. He united himself to us in an unbreakable bond and union. And as did Jesus in union with him, we now stand before the Father as his beloved child.

[00:07:54] Anthony: There’s the gospel. What do you make of God the Father’s, or this voice from heaven acknowledgment, affirmation, and blessing of the Son?

[00:08:04] Dan: In the Old Testament, Adam is called the Son of God. The nation of Israel is called the Son of God. David is God’s kingly son, and Isaiah refers to the suffering servant as God’s chosen and whom he delights and upon whom he has put his Spirit.

Now, Mark’s quoting the words of the Father at the baptism of Jesus and the beginning of Jesus ministry, echo these Old Testament identifications with the idea that they’re all fulfilled in Jesus, God’s true, unique son. The statement also identifies Jesus as God.

In Hebraic, though, the expression son of does not always mean a male child of the father. Its connotation is one having the qualities or attributes of. Now, when Jesus called James and John, for example, the sons of thunder, he meant that they were loud and outspoken. So being God’s Son meant Jesus had the qualities and attributes of God. So, in our pericope, we have God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit, all actively involved in the baptism of Jesus.

You can say, it was a Trinitarian thing.

[00:09:28] Anthony: It was a Trinitarian thing. And I want to remind our listeners that it’s Christ’s love that leads us to repentance and just keep that in mind as you preach. God doesn’t seem to be too fond of guilt trips. It’s his love that draws us. to him. Hallelujah. Praise God.

Let’s move on to our next passage for the month. It’s John 14:3-51. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday after Epiphany, which falls on January 14. Dan, we’d be grateful if you’d read it for us, please.

[00:10:01] Dan: All right. I’d be happy to.

The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” ⁴⁴ Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. ⁴⁵ Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him about whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote, Jesus son of Joseph from Nazareth.” ⁴⁶ Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.” ⁴⁷ When Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him, he said of him, “Here is truly an Israelite in whom there is no deceit!” ⁴⁸ Nathanael asked him, “Where did you get to know me?” Jesus answered, “I saw you under the fig tree before Philip called you.” ⁴⁹ Nathanael replied, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” ⁵⁰ Jesus answered, “Do you believe because I told you that I saw you under the fig tree? You will see greater things than these.” ⁵¹ And he said to him, “Very truly, I tell you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”

[00:11:23] Anthony: There’s quite a lot in this text, Dan. So, let me ask you this, if you were preaching this sermon, what would be the focus of your sermon?

[00:11:31] Dan: I think a good title for a sermon on this text might be, Who is Jesus and Have You Seen Him? This is a pericope for the season of Epiphany, and Epiphany means revelation.

In other words, seeing something you haven’t seen before. The first chapter of the fourth Gospel begins with revelation and then a series of accounts witnessing to who Jesus is. Now the character of Nathanael is told by his friend Philip to come and see Jesus, who he believes is the Messiah. Now based on some facts and some prejudice, Nathanael doubts who Jesus is.

But upon seeing Jesus and hearing from Jesus, Nathaniel accepts that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. So, a point to bring out is that a conversation with a friend, even a doubting one, and an invitation to come and see Jesus and hear his message can lead to a doubter becoming a believer. Lesson: go and tell your friends about Jesus.

[00:12:43] Anthony: So, that really does touch on the next question, and you’re already digging into this. So, with the fact of “come and see,” it’s a repeated phrase, not just in this pericope [but] other passages in scripture. So, what more would you want to say about it? And is there any sort of relationship, a symmetry to the notion of go and tell?

[00:13:04] Dan: Come and see is such a seemingly innocuous but important phrase. Come is an invitation; it’s a welcome. And when you think about it, most Christian experience begins with an invitation from a previous believer. To someone who is seeking to come and see, to come and see means to experience this for yourself.

It’s when you experience Christ for yourself that you become a believer, but that usually follows an invitation from a believer who has gone to you and given you a message and an invitation to come and see. We see examples in the New Testament, such as the women at Jesus tomb, the Samaritan woman at the well, and in our text of Mark here, Philip going to Nathaniel.

The point? What does it mean? How does it relate? Tell people to come and see. Go and tell folks to come and see.

[00:14:08] Anthony: I’m going to invite our listeners to come and see our next pericope of the month. It’s Mark 1:14-20. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the third Sunday after Epiphany, which falls on January 21.

Now after John was arrested, Jesus came to Galilee proclaiming the good news of God ¹⁵ and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news.” ¹⁶ As Jesus passed along the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the sea, for they were fishers. ¹⁷ And Jesus said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of people.” ¹⁸ And immediately they left their nets and followed him. ¹⁹ As he went a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John, who were in their boat mending the nets. ²⁰ Immediately he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men and followed him.

So, Dan, if I can phrase it this way, what is the big idea of this particular passage?

[00:15:17] Dan: A big idea here is, it gives a concrete example of commitment to the ministry of Jesus, to participating with Jesus in his ministry.

Now, this directly applies today to those who know they’ve received a calling to, whatever you want to call it, the ordained ministry, the professional ministry. But some believe they’ve really been called to that kind of ministry, and they have to think about it, and what that entails, and what that means about the future of their lives.

But it also applies to all of us, as we all participate in many ways in the ongoing ministry of Jesus. So, when Jesus calls us to do something, we need to respond because it’s our time. It’s as Mark would say, immediately. It’s our time to receive and respond to God’s call.

Ministry and discipleship may call for us to leave a job, leave property, even sadly, sometimes leave family if need be. And we have to consider our response.

We can either run away from our calling as Jonah did in the Old Testament, or we can respond as Peter, Andrew, James, and John did to Jesus’ call for us to participate with him in his ministry.

[00:16:46] Anthony: Each time I read Mark’s Gospel account, I’m just struck by the speed and urgency of the storytelling. The word immediately, which you’ve already referred to, shows up numerous times in the book and in today’s text.

Even to the point where James and John leave their daddy in the boat, right? What’s behind the urgency of Mark’s telling of the Gospel story?

[00:17:09] Dan: Over half the uses of the word immediately in the entire New Testament are found in the very short Gospel of Mark. Now, there are several theories as to why Mark uses the word immediately so many times.

For example, one is, Mark was young and impetuous. Two, he prefers action over teaching. And three, he was a lousy writer. His Greek is unimpressive with lots of problems in syntax and transitions. But to give Mark some credit, he’s actually a better writer than some would give him credit for being. His purpose is to identify Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God.

He begins his short Gospel that way, and he ends it that way. Now, in between, his style produces a sense of urgency. He writes deliberately to that end. For Mark, the time has come. The kingdom of God has come near, and so he wants his readers to understand we need to get ready and respond now, immediately.

[00:18:24] Anthony: Let’s immediately move to our final passage of the month. It’s 1 Corinthians 8:1-13. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fourth Sunday after Epiphany, on January 28.

Dan, we’d be grateful if you’d read it for us, please.

[00:18:41] Dan: I’d be happy to. Chapter 8, beginning in verse 1 of 1 Corinthians, Paul writes:

Now concerning food sacrificed to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. ² Anyone who claims to know something does not yet have the necessary knowledge, ³ but anyone who loves God is known by him. ⁴ Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “no idol in the world really exists” and that “there is no God but one.” ⁵ Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many gods and many lords— ⁶ yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. ⁷ It is not everyone, however, who has this knowledge. Since some have become so accustomed to idols until now, they still think of the food they eat as food offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. ⁸ “Food will not bring us close to God.” We are no worse off if we do not eat and no better off if we do. ⁹ But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. ¹⁰ For if others see you, who possess knowledge, eating in the temple of an idol, might they not, since their conscience is weak, be encouraged to the point of eating food sacrificed to idols? ¹¹ So by your knowledge the weak brother or sister for whom Christ died is destroyed. ¹² But when you thus sin against brothers and sisters and wound their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. ¹³ Therefore, if food is a cause of their falling, I will never again eat meat, so that I may not cause one of them to fall.

[00:21:04] Anthony: So, looking back through this pericope, the very first verse says that knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. Knowledge is generally revered, and certainly something we all seek. So, help us understand what Paul is really getting at with this statement, Dan.

[00:21:23] Dan: Okay the Christians in the city of Corinth were blessed with many spiritual gifts. But sadly, this had gone to their heads and caused division in the congregation. Now, one of the gifts, evidently, was the gift of knowledge. The Greek word is gnosis. And it appears to [have] become a popular catch word for the Corinthians.

Now, at least some, evidently, had come to believe that their special knowledge gave them rights and freedoms to act and behave as they wanted. Paul points out that their knowledge really is only partial, and that the basis of Christian conduct is not knowledge but love, as Paul goes on to say in chapter 13 of first Corinthians. “If I understand all mysteries and all knowledge, but do not have love, I am nothing now.”

In other words, if you know that the monarchy of the Trinity is located in the being of God, not in the persons of God, and you understand the perichoresis, the homoousion, and the hypostatic union, and that there is no lacuna in the prolepsis of the eschaton, but that the eschatological Parousia is certain, but you judge and tell me that because I don’t understand that, that I’m a stupid disciple and not worthy of being called a Christian … you just might be a Corinthian! (Apologies there to Jeff Foxworthy.)

[00:22:55] Anthony: As I’m looking at verse nine, Dan, thinking about just what you said. You could have all this knowledge, theological jargon, but if you abuse the liberties that you have and it becomes a stumbling block to others, that’s problematic to God. And I just want to ask you, is there any way that you can contextualize that in the modern day?

Maybe things that you see where we are taking liberty, that is actually becoming a stumbling block to others. Any words that you would say there?

[00:23:32] Dan: Yeah, I would put it this way. If I were giving a sermon and after I had exegeted this pericope, I would probably come back and say something to the effect that, what do we learn from the apostle Paul in this passage?

Some Christians, perhaps relatively new to the faith, though intellectually they knew and understood the gospel, were still subjectively and by habit tied into their old ideas and ways. We can see this today. We see Christians, maybe even ourselves, we say, cross your fingers, or knock on wood, or here’s wishing you good luck. And now we know objectively that those things are superstitions, but it’s a part of our culture, and we still subjectively use those terms.

But so, how should we, as church leaders and senior members of a congregation, act and behave toward folks, especially those who are new? What kind of examples should be set? Paul would admonish the leaders and senior members to be careful. Now what about us? Are we conscious and aware of how our example as church leaders and senior members affect those who are new to our congregations?

What about our example? Now, not in matters of indifference, but in matters that might mislead and hurt new attendees. Might we even lead them into sin by our attitude and conduct?

On one level, what if we knew that some new attendees, because of their former religion or church, believed that it was a sin to eat pork? Would we invite them over to our house or have a fellowship meal at church that offered only pork? Would that be a good way to educate them and break them in?

But even more seriously, and right along the lines of what Paul is talking about in our passage, let me give this example—because what Paul is really talking about is eating meat sacrificed to idols, but eating it at the pagan temple.

Now we’ve got to remember that the pagan temples in those days were kind of their versions of what we might call a restaurant. In other words, if you wanted to get a good steak, where would you go? You’d go down to the local pagan temple because that’s where the animals were slaughtered and butchered and cooked and served as meals. And the community would go there, and they would eat and of course they would have the dancing girls, the prostitutes, the idols and all of that. But hey, it was a good meal.

So let me give this example. It’s something that came to mind while I was watching the TV show The Big Bang Theory. Now, in that show, there’s a character named Barry Kripke.

And Barry likes to invite new acquaintances and new colleagues to have dinner with him at a buffet that has excellent food and is very affordable. Now, the buffet is located in the local strip club. So, what if a church leader or senior church member invited a new attendee to a meal at a strip club? The leader or member could argue they only go there for the food, and they have the character not to look at anything else.

Some in Corinth are making much the same argument about going to a pagan temple for a meal. Now, would any of us do that to a new member? God forbid! We could very well be leading someone into sin, even an addiction, by our so-called freedom and our belief in our own character.

Let’s realize that God has called us to follow and imitate Christ. We’re to walk as he walked; we’re to follow Paul as he followed Christ. Others should be able to follow us as we follow Paul. And as we follow Christ, it’s not about us. It’s not about our freedom. It’s not about our knowledge. It’s about love and concern for others, and we need to realize the importance of setting a right example for other people, of being a light set on a stand, of being a city set on a hill for all to see.

So, what should we do? We should spiritually discipline ourselves and let our example shine. And be a light and a guide to others, because that is love, and the greatest of all gifts is not knowledge. The greatest of all gifts is love. God has all knowledge, but God is love, and we are his children in communion with the Holy Spirit and in union with Christ.

So, what should we do? Let’s grow up to be like our Father and let us grow in love.

[00:28:55] Anthony: Hallelujah and amen.

Pastors, I want to remind you that God could have chosen angels or any other thing he’s created to preach the gospel. But he chose the weak who can sympathize with the weak. He’s chosen you pastors, you preachers, you teachers. Thank you for your labor of love and Christ’s service.

Dan, I want to thank you for participating in the many ways that you have. Thank you for your insights here today. I have no doubt there are nuggets that our preachers are going to be able to take away from our discussion here today. So, thank you so very much for your labor of love.

And I want to thank three people who helped make this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, David McKinnon, and Elizabeth Mullins. They’re a great team and I certainly could not do this without them.

As is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we like to end with prayer. And Mr. Rogers, if you would we’d be grateful for your prayer over our listening audience here today.

[00:30:00] Dan: I’d be happy to, Anthony.

And let me, first of all, say thank you for the job you do on Gospel Reverb. In my opinion, for what it’s worth, I think you do a wonderful job here, and I really enjoy listening to all of your programs. And thank you for allowing me to be a part of them.

So, if you join me now in prayer.

Our great God and Father in heaven, we come to you through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and in the Holy Spirit to praise and to worship you and to realize it is all about you.

And our preaching and our teaching and in everything we do, it’s about you, and it’s about love. Love God and love others, that fulfills everything you’ve asked of us as humans to do.

God, we need your help. We need your power. We need you in our lives. We need to participate with you through the Spirit to bring this about. But God, we trust in you and your faithfulness to do this for us.

Thank you for your word. Help us to rightly understand it, rightly preach it, rightly teach it, and rightly live by it. And let us interpret it all through the lens of our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, who is our epiphany, who is the one who reveals to us your way, your word, and your being. So, we give you thanks and praise, and ask your blessing, and give you great thanks in the name of our Savior, Jesus. Amen.

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Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!