Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

Anthony: Hello, friends and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view.

I’m your host Anthony Mullins. And it’s my delight to welcome this month’s Stephen D. Morrison. Stephen calls himself an “amateur” theologian who has authored 13 books including the Plain English series, for example Karl Barth in Plain English, T.F. Torrance in Plain English, James Cone in Plain English and other books like We Belong: Trinitarian Good News. You can find these books on Amazon or through his personal website at sdmorrison.org. That’s S as in Sam, D as in David, morrison.org.

Theology is the central passion of his life however he does have other pursuits and one in particular – coffee. He is a coffee roaster who appreciates the subtle delights of java including the tactile experience of roasting, brewing and drinking it. Stephen, you’re my kind of guy!

And I am learning to appreciate coffee. I didn’t start until I was 33 years old. I’m 51 now, but I’ve made up for some lost time through the years. And I’m glad to know that you really appreciate the delights of coffee. Thank you for joining us today and welcome to the podcast.

And for those in our listening audience who may not be familiar with you and your work, we’d like to know you. So, tell us a little bit about your story.

Stephen: Sure. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the invitation. Speaking of coffee, I am drinking a nice Burundi this morning, which I’m enjoying quite a bit, so can definitely relate to the shared love of coffee. So yes, appreciate that.

But yeah, my background, I grew up in Columbus, Ohio. I still live here with my wife. I’ve traveled around a little bit, but I am a writer and theologian. I’ve written, like you said, several books now. The Plain English series, being the main one.

For me, I grew up Methodist and charismatic and really started to find a passion for theology as I discovered the doctrines of grace. And for me, that was a big revelation, a big moment of really falling in love with the experience that theology can bring you to the depths that it has. And that was coming from reading TF Torrance, Karl Barth, and just opening up this whole new world of intrigue and interest.

And yeah, I love theology. I love reading. I’m a big reading guy. My wife and I also like to travel and watch good movies, stuff like that. So, we do all of that, but yeah that’s me a little bit personally.

I still love doing theology. I’m always reading something new and considered it a great adventure. Yeah, I love it very much.

Anthony: Let me put you on a spot, Stephen. Two questions. One book recommendation, maybe something you’ve read recently? And then secondly, one locale, location you’ve traveled to with your wife that you’re like, man, if you haven’t been, you’ve got to go?

Stephen: It’s hard. We lived in Europe for a few years. I actually lived with her in Tallinn, Estonia, which is where she’s from. And if people haven’t heard of Estonia, it’s a very beautiful country. I would recommend visiting there and traveling there.

Their old town is one of the best preserved in Europe. So, if you’re into history, it’s a very beautiful place to be. The nature’s really great. I would definitely say that’s the place to go visit if you have the chance, off the beaten path. People don’t typically plan trips there, but it’s definitely worth it.

As far as book recommendations I have a lot. It’s hard to say. I’m always read new things.

I recently reread parts of Gustavo Gutierrez’s Theology of Liberation. I always recommend that one. That’s a great book. For many reasons, that one’s quite good.

I always can go with some of the classics, some of the ones that are closest to me as well, like something like, Dogmatics in Outline from Barth.

But that’s recently one that I reread and enjoyed quite a lot.

Anthony: Yeah. I hear you. And it sounds like you’re a bit like me. It’s not that you’re reading one book at a time. It’s multiple and I’m a slow reader, so it takes me a while to get through them.

Listen, Stephen, I sometimes hear Christians ask why we need to listen to or read theologians since we already have the Bible. You’ve written several books about theologians we admire on this podcast Barth, Torrance, Moltmann, to name a few. And of course, you’re a theologian yourself. So, what would you say to those who push back on the work of theology and theologians?

Stephen: Yeah. I’ve heard this phrase a lot. The idea that, oh, I don’t need theology; I just have Jesus.

It’s a phrase I’ve heard thrown around and especially, I think it’s an ironic phrase because I do think that being, doing theology is unavoidable. And theology is just our God talk. And Barth talks about that. How theology is for the church. It is a critical reflection for the speech of the church when it, when we speak of God.

And so, this phrase that, “Yeah, I don’t need theology. I just have Jesus,” in and of itself is a theological statement. Cause I always want to come back with people who say that and say which Jesus? The moment that you’re talking about this Jesus person that you’re saying that you have – which whatever that means, a dubious statement – I would say, to say that you have Jesus, but you’re already making a theological claim when you’re saying these things.

And so, the question isn’t doing theology or not. Everybody is having a theology. It’s whether or not you have a good theology. And that’s why it’s necessary to have critical reflection on what it is to speak of God and why people like Barth are important.

Because what typically happens – Barth has this great kind of turn of phrase, where he talks about – he’s critiquing SLI marker. (I’ve written before where I think he’s maybe not doing the best job of critiquing SLI marker, but he’s critiquing S marker.)

And he says, “That one cannot speak of God by speaking of man in a loud voice.” And I think that’s such a great phrase because that’s a tendency that is very easy to fall back into, where if we just don’t critically examine what it means to speak of God, we’re going to just be talking about ourselves. And we’re going to be amplifying what it is to be human and think that’s what God is like. Or we’re going to project our own fears, our hopes, our own insecurities up into the heavens and we’re going to call it God.

And so critical reflection on theology is essential for understanding God’s revelation in Jesus Christ. It’s essential for proclaiming the gospel. And so, it’s unavoidable to do theology. Everybody’s doing it, like I said.

And then really the other point is that not everyone’s doing it well. And the existential side of it as well is that one of my favorite definitions of theology is from Anselm – and others have said it as well, of course – but he defined theology as faith seeking understanding. So, the moment that, you’re talking about faith and that you have faith, you are doing a theological act and it is a natural thing to pursue the understanding of faith.

And so, I think it’s unavoidable, and I think it’s just a part of what it is to be a people of faith in a community that’s trying to all speak of God. It’s necessary to have this critical reflection. And so, theology for me is an adventure in that sense.

I do think that there’s a Latin phrase [unintelligible], which means theology of pilgrims. And I think that’s an apt description of how I think about theology as well. Nobody’s arrived at perfect theology. And I think that’s some of the pushback people have with theologians. They see them as these kind of, snobby white, old guys telling you what to think about God.

And that’s not what it is. That’s not been my experience. Maybe you’re reading the wrong theologians, but it really is an adventure of discovery. It’s an adventure with God that he can take you on with, the help with other theologians. But really, it is this adventure and it’s a pilgrim – we’re always theologians still on the way.

I think for the rest of my life, I’ll be pursuing that question of what it means to speak of God. And I think that’s the task of theology, that any person of faith is going to still go on. And so, I do think that there’s a bit of that humility that comes into it, that sometimes is lacking for theologians.

Someone like Karl Bart, that was writing enormous amounts of work and still wasn’t able to finish it and still felt like there was still more to be said. It’s, I think, a good example of what a healthy theological approach is. And this is pursuit I think is beautiful and it’s essential to what it looks like to live out our faith in a practical way and to critically reflect on speaking of God.

Anthony: That’s well said, and I appreciate how you came at it from a posture of humility that there’s no perfect theology, no theology that is airtight, that has all the answers. And that’s why I appreciate what Barth said that no active man can claim to be more than an attempt, not even science. And theology, even though it’s the sweetest of sciences, it’s still just an attempt to talk about this God. Capon says, to try to describe God is like throwing analogies at a mystery. You just attempt. That’s all you can do.

Friends, it’s that time! Here are the four bible passages we are going to discuss:

Luke 20:27-38                                                                                              The God of the Living

Luke 21:5-19                                                                                                Opportunity to Testify

Luke 23:33-43                                                                                              Father, Forgive Them

Matthew 24:36-44                                                                                      Stay Alert!

The first passage of the month is Luke 20:27 – 38 from the Common English Bible. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 27, that is November the 6th.

²⁷ Some Sadducees, who deny that there’s a resurrection, came to Jesus and asked, ²⁸ “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies leaving a widow but no children, the brother must marry the widow and raise up children for his brother. ²⁹ Now there were seven brothers. The first man married a woman and then died childless. ³⁰ The second ³¹ and then the third brother married her. Eventually all seven married her, and they all died without leaving any children. ³² Finally, the woman died too. ³³ In the resurrection, whose wife will she be? All seven were married to her.” ³⁴ Jesus said to them, “People who belong to this age marry and are given in marriage. ³⁵ But those who are considered worthy to participate in that age, that is, in the age of the resurrection from the dead, won’t marry nor will they be given in marriage. ³⁶ They can no longer die, because they are like angels and are God’s children since they share in the resurrection. ³⁷ Even Moses demonstrated that the dead are raised—in the passage about the burning bush, when he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. ³⁸ He isn’t the God of the dead but of the living. To him they are all alive.”

Stephen, like the Sadducees, many people today deny that there is resurrection. Why does a sound eschatology, including the resurrection of the dead matter? And how should it impact our lives?

Stephen: Yeah. The resurrection’s the most radical claim of the Christian faith. I believe it’s such a –hope against hope is a phrase Moltmann uses to talk about eschatology. This eschatological coming of God is such a profound hope, that really it either doesn’t mean anything or it means everything. And I think it’s the latter.

And I think having this hope, having this faith in the resurrection of the dead is so important, not only for our lives here, but really for our engagement with the world. I think Moltmann’s theology of hope is something I immediately come to with a lot of this, where he stresses that from the beginning. Eschatology isn’t just a part of faith, but it really is the essence of what it is to be a Christian today — is to yearn and to hope for the coming of God in a profound way.

And yeah, the resurrection, that is such a radical part of our faith and it’s sometimes difficult. And so, I sympathize with the people that struggle with the resurrection. I think it is a hope beyond hope.

It’s something that transcends, it’s not something I would think of for myself, if I’m just relying back on myself. But that’s the reality of what faith is – it’s being pulled and compelled by something bigger than myself. And it very much matters for our daily lives.

I think hope for the future challenges our engagement with the world today. Moltmann talks about how this hope puts us in conflict with the present because we hope for the kingdom that’s to come, the justice that will be established through the reign of God.

We’re put into conflict with the situations of this world that contradict that, that aren’t kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. And so that prayer that Jesus taught us to pray is so essential for this. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, is really the orientation for much of what we do and how we engage with the world.

And so, it’s essential to be able to have this hope, not only on a personal level, but on a church level where we feel we’re not going to hide away from the world. We do believe that this world will be a part of the resurrection and the resurrection that comes, the new heaven and the new earth.

And so, I think sometimes eschatology can have a negative spin where we’re just escapists. We’re just hoping that, oh, everything’s going to burn and we’re just going to escape on the spaceship or whatever. And it’s very anti-human.

But I think there’s a way to believe in the resurrection of the dead that is very humane. And it brings us back to the hope that we have for this world and the hope that we have for the people in our lives and pushes us out into the world and out of our safe little Christian bubbles into, what does it look like to proclaim kingdom come in this situation?

And these sorts of social situations – political, whatever it may be – and impacting not only our lives and how we hope but giving us the courage to proclaim that kingdom anew and proclaim the fruit of Jesus’ words.

Anthony: Hope against hope. That’s well stated, when we come to scripture, Stephen it’s so important that Jesus is our hermeneutical principle, the lens in which we read, but often we’re reading through our fallen minds, and we need to recognize that. So, with that in mind, I want to ask you the next question in this passage.

It says, those who are considered worthy to participate in that age. Who are those people that Jesus describes in verse 30?

Stephen: Yeah. Like you said, any text, I think takes a bit of critical thought to analyze. And I think it’s important for something like this to step back and ask, who even are the Sadducees? Who’s Jesus responding to and could Bible [unintelligible] tell you that Sadducees are the elite class within Jewish society?

They were the privileged, landed, powerful, and rich of the time. And so, I think that helps contextualize this a little bit because a big motif of Luke’s Gospel is this critique of the powers that be, as you might say.

And so I think “those worthy to participate in the age,” it sets up this dialectic between those who have a hope in the material things of this world, that are fixated on these, as you said, human mindsets, fallen mindsets, and those who are anticipating and living in the kingdom that is to come and is still present in us through the Spirit, yet we still yearn for its full consummation in the coming of Christ.

And so, I think, the phrase (who are those who are worthy or considered worthy to participate in that age?) does reflect this sense of being those who anticipate in hope the resurrection and are obviously in Christ – is the key to, I think, understanding this. Like you said, Jesus is always going to be our hermeneutic lens.

But I think it does set up this distinction between those who have their hope in the powers of this world, the systems of this world, the riches of this world and those who have their hope in the kingdom that is to come. And so “the worthy to participate in that age” are those who that, that is where their hope lies.

That is, they are in Christ, in that sense, not just in this positional sense. Not just in this sense of being united to Christ, as we believe all Christians are. But in the sense of, I’ve actively put my hope into this coming of God and that’s my foundation.

And setting up this distinction, like I said, of, where is my faith? Where’s my hope? It’s not in mammon, it’s not the systems of this world, but it’s in the coming of God, the coming of justice in the coming of his reign.

Anthony: Verse 38 states, God is the God of the living and to him all are alive. What should we make of that statement?

Stephen: Yeah. God is living, and God is the one in whom all things have their being. And so even those who have passed have passed in Christ. And Christ is the resurrection and the life.

And I think that God, isn’t someone who I think, accepts the deadness that is in us, but is always calling us to life because that’s who God is. I think that “all those who are live in Christ,” I think is the cord in that. That the resurrection is the new creation of all things that begins in him. And being in Christ is life and being outside of Christ is not.

And so, I think that’s potentially one way to understand it, theologically. But yeah.

Anthony: Let’s transition to our next pericope which is Luke 21:5 – 19. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 28, which is November the 13th.

Stephen, would you read it for us please?

Stephen: Sure.

⁵ Some people were talking about the temple, how it was decorated with beautiful stones and ornaments dedicated to God. Jesus said, ⁶ “As for the things you are admiring, the time is coming when not even one stone will be left upon another. All will be demolished.” ⁷ They asked him, “Teacher, when will these things happen? What sign will show that these things are about to happen?” ⁸ Jesus said, “Watch out that you aren’t deceived. Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I’m the one!’ and ‘It’s time!’ Don’t follow them. ⁹ When you hear of wars and rebellions, don’t be alarmed. These things must happen first, but the end won’t happen immediately.” ¹⁰ Then Jesus said to them, “Nations and kingdoms will fight against each other. ¹¹ There will be great earthquakes and wide-scale food shortages and epidemics. There will also be terrifying sights and great signs in the sky. ¹² But before all this occurs, they will take you into custody and harass you because of your faith. They will hand you over to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors because of my name. ¹³ This will provide you with an opportunity to testify. ¹⁴ Make up your minds not to prepare your defense in advance. ¹⁵ I’ll give you words and wisdom that none of your opponents will be able to counter or contradict. ¹⁶ You will be betrayed by your parents, brothers and sisters, relatives, and friends. They will execute some of you. ¹⁷ Everyone will hate you because of my name. ¹⁸ Still, not a hair on your heads will be lost. ¹⁹ By holding fast, you will gain your lives.

Anthony: I don’t know about you, Stephen, but when somebody tells me not to be alarmed, guess what happens?

I immediately get alarmed, right? And Jesus tells us not to be alarmed when we hear of wars and rebellions. And he goes on to say, there will be earthquakes, food, shortages, and epidemics. This sounds very real and scary and relevant to us in 2022.

So, what should we make of it? And those who cry out, “these are the end time signs”?

Stephen: Yeah, very much so. I think the tendency to look at all of these and immediately cry out, “all last days, end of times” misses the point. Like you said, it misses the point of, do not have this fear. Do not have be alarmed by this. Because it sets people into this fear mentality of oh, but we should be afraid. It does the exact opposite of what Christ is saying.

I think you can look at the text a couple different ways. I think one would be to analyze it historically and recognize the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD being a big part of this passage. Potentially that it was a word of courage to those who would go through that.

But it does give witness to us today who will have these struggles. And I think as I look over the passage, rethinking about it, the big impression that I think is meant through it is really the courage that comes from being in Christ during these times and having the Spirit with us as that comfort and wisdom, and to know what to say in the right times.

I think looking in these passages for some sort of secret clue to when everything’s going to end or whatever – the end times fanaticism, I guess you could say, is missing the point. I think the emphasis of this is really that Christ will be with us even in the most tumultuous of situations socially and in the world.

But that not a hair on your heads will be lost. Even that it’s very interesting that phrase comes shortly after he says they will execute some of you, still not a hair in your head will be lost. And you’re like which is it?

And we’re like, in Christ, we are safe and comforted in him. Even if we die, in his death, we join him in death, but that’s the hope of being raised in new life with him as well. And it’s a very interesting parallel there.

But like I said, I think the main part of this is really just the comfort and hope that comes even in the midst of suffering and turmoil and trials and all these things. And the emphasis for this passage for me is that we find this hope because we are in Christ and not to be fixated on the things that happen or to be fixated on Christ.

Anthony: Right on. And you mentioned courage and according to our Lord, being harassed for our faith is an opportunity to testify or to speak courageously. But testify to what exactly, Stephen?

Stephen: Yeah. Testify to Christ and that he has overcome the world through his death and resurrection. He’s taken upon himself the suffering and the sin of human beings and has done away with it in his death and put it aside. And in the resurrection, there is hope for the new creation of all things.

And so, we testify to that by being able to not be overcome by the situations of the world. But to recognize that they have been overcome themself by Christ.

And we testify to the resurrection – we were just talking about the resurrection and that’s a big part of what we testify. But it’s not just a resurrection. It’s the resurrection of Christ which we take part in. Through the scriptures, through baptism as the sign of that, we were brought down in his death so that we’ll be raised in the new life in him.

And yeah, we’re testifying to that hope that’s within us to being able to have the courage to face these trials with hope, with joy even because of what Christ has done for us. And our hope of being in him. And I think that’s such a key phrase for the whole of the New Testament as well is (especially Paul’s letters) that we are in him and in Christ.

Those two phrases and that’s what we’re testifying to is our safety and our protection that our lives, ultimately aren’t ours to be worried about, but they’re God’s and they’re in his hands. And I think that’s a beautiful thing that we’re witnessing to. And it’s the source of our hope and our courage.

Anthony: Yeah, you mentioned that this should lead to joy. And I don’t know if it was Barth or maybe it was Eugene Peterson talked about how theology should lead to doxology. The work of coming to scriptures and reading a passage like this, even with all that surrounds us and the circumstances of this world, Jesus has overcome it. So, we rejoice! That is the response to such good news.

And while we do this work of theology, let me ask you this. What do you think it means that we’ll gain our lives by holding fast? What is that?

Stephen: A big question – if we go back a bit to ancient philosophy and Plato and Socrates and all these – was the question of, what is the good life?

And so, I think the question of what life is, is one thing. There’s the scientific fact of life, being alive, but then there’s that deeper question of, what it is to live? And I think really the Christian answer to this is quite direct: that to live is to be in Christ.

And to have this fellowship with God is what truly is life. And so, I think this phrase can be interpreted by this. The scriptures typically hold together this kind of two-foot understanding of life. There is a life of the current age which is fading away and is dying.

And then there’s the life and the age to come which is the true life, the life of participation in the fellowship of God, of Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and being lifted up into that life, the very source of life itself. And so, I think that’s how we can understand this phrase, that we gain our lives by holding fast.

Because what is it really worth to hold on so tightly to a life that’s rooted in the present age, that’s rooted in the things that are falling away? That’s rooted in the old man, the old Adam, whatever phrase or metaphor we want to use? What is that really worth if in trying to white knuckle, grasp the things that we consider valuable for this age, if we don’t recognize that the true life is the life of being one with Christ, participating in his fellowship with the Father and the Spirit?

And that’s what it is. We gain our lives by holding fast. Because we may lose our life in this age by doing so, but we gain the life that is truly life, the life that is actually the good life. And I think that answers that philosophical question: what is the good life?

The good life for a Christian is fellowship with God, is life in Christ, in participation, in the triune life of God. Life without God is just incomplete. It’s not that true life. It’s not that good life. And it’s seems paradoxical to make this claim that even in death, even in suffering and struggling, that we would find actually what the good life is.

But it’s a big, I think, motif for the scripture is that we hold onto the life that is to come.

Anthony: I like the illustration of white knuckling it. And I’ve got my hand in a fist right now and my knuckles are white. And I’m just thinking about what it looks like to try to hold on to the things that are not eternal, the things of this life that will fade away.

And when my fist is closed, I’m not able to receive, in a sense what God wants to so generously give to me. And I open up my hand and to me, that’s a metaphor of what it looks like in the Christian life. And that is, I can’t bring anything to God’s table. He has accomplished it in Jesus Christ and all I can do is receive. But that is active participation, receiving the good things that God has in store.

So, I appreciate that word.

Let’s transition on to our next pericope, which is Luke 23:33 – 43. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 29, which is on November the 20th.

³³ When they arrived at the place called The Skull, they crucified him, along with the criminals, one on his right and the other on his left. ³⁴ Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they’re doing.” They drew lots as a way of dividing up his clothing. ³⁵ The people were standing around watching, but the leaders sneered at him, saying, “He saved others. Let him save himself if he really is the Christ sent from God, the chosen one.” ³⁶ The soldiers also mocked him. They came up to him, offering him sour wine ³⁷ and saying, “If you really are the king of the Jews, save yourself.” ³⁸ Above his head was a notice of the formal charge against him. It read “This is the king of the Jews.” ³⁹ One of the criminals hanging next to Jesus insulted him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” ⁴⁰ Responding, the other criminal spoke harshly to him, “Don’t you fear God, seeing that you’ve also been sentenced to die? ⁴¹ We are rightly condemned, for we are receiving the appropriate sentence for what we did. But this man has done nothing wrong.” ⁴² Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” ⁴³ Jesus replied, “I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise.”

Father, forgive them for they don’t know what they’re doing. I think it’s impossible to comprehend the magnitude of this statement. All we can do is try to apprehend it. So, I want to give you an opportunity to help us apprehend the reality contained within. What say you?

Stephen: It’s certainly one of the most beautiful and challenging statements in the New Testament, in terms of how it just really hits home. It hits us right in our heart.

And I think when I hear this, I typically think of how Barth understood the doctrine of sin and what even sin is. And I think he got it right when he said that we don’t even know the depth of our sin without first knowing the depth of Christ reconciliation, and that we have to begin with Christ.

And so, what sin is, what it is that we even need forgiven from, we don’t truly know it until we know it in the light of reconciliation. And so, I think Barth uses that to create this beautiful concept — he starts off with the humiliation of the Son of God, that God became humble and became a human being so that the human beings who try to become God see what it is to truly be human and all of these different things.

But I think that just helps us think about this in a different way where we truly don’t know sin. I think we’re very quick to label things in all of this, but I think we don’t know it in the sense where we don’t know the depth of how much it hurts, not only us, how much it hurts our society and the people we love. But how much it grieves God, most of all.

And so not knowing what we’re doing when we do these things is just what it is to be human. But I think we have a sense not only of what those things are, but more importantly, we know them truly as we are forgiven of them. And that’s the beauty of the gospel is that even the things that we don’t know that we’ve done, the sin that we are scarred by is healed and is reconciled in the power of Christ and of his death and resurrection and his life lived on our behalf.

It’s such a mystery as well. I don’t want to ever try to remove the mystery from scripture or from the beauty of what Christ has done for us. Because there is still mystery in this and there is still a sense of awe that we should always have for this.

And I think that’s the first impression that I have, and I would want to impress on everyone listening, is that this is a beautiful phrase, but it’s a terrifying and awe-inspiring phrase. And that we are forgiven in spite of not knowing what we do and the person on the cross with them received this promise of being with them today in paradise and how paradoxical that even feels.

But it really strikes to the core for me of what it is to reconcile to God. It’s not something that we do. It’s purely a gift of grace and how wonderful that is. It just really gets to the heart of how beautiful the gospel can be and how inspiring it is for us. And how challenging as well it can be for us.

Anthony: Yeah. You spoke of the mystery of this beauty. Let’s press in there a little bit more because the criminal asked Jesus to remember him when he comes into his kingdom. It just strikes me, isn’t this really the cry for all of humanity, whether we know it or not? And so, where is the hope for that criminal and all the rest of us criminals out here trying to do this thing called life.

Stephen: Yeah, that really hits it on the head. That is all of us. That’s our cry as human beings, that’s what we cry out.

The cross is such a – not only in this passage, in all the other words of Christ and the cross and the witness to that in scripture – is such a beautiful account of this sense of people crying out and having this, “my God, you forsaken me” for example, being one. And that sense of trust, “into your hands, I commend my spirit.”

All of these, I think have a reflection in what it is to be human. And I think it just is such a beautiful portrait of not only who we are, but really the depths of how far Christ went into our humanity and into the darkness of our fallenness and really met us in our rawness, in our in our ignorance and in our sin and in our evil and met us really at the depths of that.

Calvin has a great phrase where “he became bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh.” He truly met us where we are. And yeah, certainly a cry that is mimicked and echoed within humanity.

And I think the remembrance of God is the hope that we have that Christ does hold us in the remembrance. And I think there’s something really beautiful that I was reading recently about how in the Hebrew scriptures, the act of remembrance is such an important priority. Today, we overlook that. We just think, oh, just memory, it’s just something you have. It’s almost an object.

But, for them, remembering an event that took place was almost an act of remixing it and reliving it. And the remembrance of what God had done — particularly like in the Exodus or in other events of God’s acts in history with Israel — remembering it was almost as important as the actual event itself. The beginning of the 10 commandments states that, “I’m the Lord, your God who liberated you from the Egyptian captivity.” And then the commandments come.

And so, there’s this sense where remembrance has more of a power to it than just, oh remember me, remember that I exist factually, remember who I am. But it’s actually this sense of remember me and being revived and being in that remembrance.

And I think there’s a lot more to this than typically gets understood of just oh, remember me in your book, check me off on the list or whatever. The remembrance is this act of recalling and almost to some extent, more vital than just the factual checking of the box for us.

It’s a big source, a great source of hope for us that we will be remembered in Christ and that he not only has our name, one among billions, but that truly remembers who we are and that remembrance brings us back to back to him. And it foreshadows and points to the resurrection that’s the great remembrance that in Christ we are raised again to new life.

And the kingdom that is to come is that kingdom of new life. And yeah, it’s a very pregnant phrase for sure.

Anthony: Yes. Pregnant, indeed. The word even, remember – there’s so much you can unpack there with the resurrection and the way that Jesus and his Father. Remember us in the triune life. What a beautiful thing.

Now you mentioned the statement that Jesus made, why have you forsaken me? And I’d like to scratch that itch just a little bit more, if I may. Anything that you want to say about some of the atonement theories out there?

Just to let you in on some insight on the way I think. Things like punitive theories, like penal substitution, substitutionary atonement, has done a lot of damage in terms of the way that we see the relationship, the triune relationship of Father, Son, and Spirit, revealed at the cross.

Anything that you want to say about that?

Stephen: Yeah. I have a lot of thoughts on this. I think we could derail the whole full show.

But I definitely agree. I think penal substitution to is one of those things that for me, an early joy in discovery for theology was just the reality that’s not the only way of looking at the cross.

And I think tearing down some of those presuppositions that come with it, the idea of God being this angry father and then Jesus just being the nice guy that steps in takes the blow, the whole narrative of that. And so yeah, there’s a lot of ways where that divides the Trinity itself. Like you said, that’s extremely problematic.

I’ll throw a little plug in. I did do a long video series on penal substitution on my YouTube channel. That’s a good, I think, primer into some of these questions and how they can be addressed.

But yeah, I do think, like you said, the [statement] “my God, why you forsaken me?” I think the first way that I understand it is really it proclaims the depth of how far Christ went into our fallen mind, into our fallen situation. And that he truly touched the depths of what it is to feel forsaken.

Now did the father actually forsake the son? I don’t think that’s possible. The father and the Son are one. Even Jesus said a few verses before that everyone else will abandon me, but my father will be with me. And I think that’s confirmed with the word that “into your spirit or into your hands, I commend my spirit,” at the conclusion of that. And yeah, there’s a lot there.

Reflecting back on how it ties back into Psalms 22 – which is what Christ is actually quoting with this phrase – the end of that Psalm, ends in this triumphant realization that God did not abandon, did not forsake his servant; and so, there’s that aspect as well. Taking just that verse by itself without recognizing the context to it, and the fact that he was declaring something that had a very profound meaning to the listeners who would’ve known instantly, oh, I know that song. I know the way that ends and it’s not this hopeless, pitiful situation.

But it truly is one where even in that depth of feeling so god-forsaken, God has entered into that god-forsakenness and made it his own. And in that sense, redeemed it and found us even in that depth where even if I make my bed in hell, you were there.

And so that’s a beautiful insight too. Where even in the most pitiful in the depth of despair that we can find ourselves in, Christ has even penetrated into that depth and met us there and comforted us in that moment and brought us to a new life as a result.

Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God.

Stephen, let’s move on to our final pericope of the month. It’s Matthew 24:36 – 44. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Advent 1 on November the 27th. Please read it for us.

Stephen: Sure.

³⁶ “But nobody knows when that day or hour will come, not the heavenly angels and not the Son. Only the Father knows. ³⁷ As it was in the time of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Human One.  ³⁸ In those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. ³⁹ They didn’t know what was happening until the flood came and swept them all away. The coming of the Human One will be like that. ⁴⁰ At that time there will be two men in the field. One will be taken and the other left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding at the mill. One will be taken and the other left. ⁴² Therefore, stay alert! You don’t know what day the Lord is coming. ⁴³ But you understand that if the head of the house knew at what time the thief would come, he would keep alert and wouldn’t allow the thief to break into his house. ⁴⁴ Therefore, you also should be prepared, because the Human One will come at a time you don’t know.

Anthony: Jesus said, Stephen, that nobody knows when the day or hour will come for his appearance, only the Father knows. So, tell me this. Why do so many groups get swept up in prediction addiction, trying over and over again, wrongly by the way, to proclaim Christ coming?

Stephen: I like that phrase prediction addiction. That’s an apt phrase. Yeah. I have personal experience with this. I grew up in a situation where that was pretty normal, to predict every big news event that happened, that was the was the line. Oh, this is a sign it’s going to happen this month. Or, the blood moon’s coming in, that’s the reason or whatever the prediction’s going to be.

And I grew up somewhat of a situation like that, and I think I also can speak to the scars that it leaves the kind of, almost celebration of devastation.

And I think that’s a big part of it that’s troubling to me now. Just how much it’s — you almost have this eager anticipation to see destruction happened because then that confirms Christ coming or whatever else. And yeah, it is very clear that nobody knows the time and the hour when Christ is going to come again.

And I think that there’s the dual sense of always being prepared, and this being in anticipation for Christ coming. I do think this prediction addiction — I think I’m going to keep that and use that for it, the phrase. It is a sense of our tendency to prefer escapism to the actual work of the gospel, where it’s easier for us to just say it’s going to all end, so why put in the effort to love our neighbor.

Why put in the effort to build a better world for the poor and for the lost and for the broken when it’s all just going to go up in flames. It’s an escape in that sense. It’s a cop out for the work that we’re called to do because you get hung up on these things and you get fixated on reading the times.

And what is Israel doing this month? That must be a sign, or what is this country doing this month? Or all that was a sign of this. And it really becomes almost an excuse just to occupy our mind with something else other than — as humans we are very much prone to extrapolating from incomplete data, some sort of grand mystery.

I think that’s the root of a lot of conspiracy theories. They talk about how when we look up at the stars, they’re just a bunch of dots, but what do we see? We see connection points between all of them. And so, I think we are wired to look for these connections, but at the same time, it can be that wiring can be turned back and against us and harm us where we are constantly searching for all these signs and constantly searching for this stuff.

We’re so fixated on some hidden mystery that we think we can solve. And we overlook the things that are clear and direct in the scripture. If you feed the hungry, you’re feeding Christ. If you clothe the naked, you’re giving clothes to Christ. And those commands, you don’t need months and months of study to understand what they mean. If you care for the least of these, you’ve cared for Christ.

And so, I think it is a tendency that is very problematic and very troubling, and whatever the cause I think there’s personal individuals will have different reasons for the cause. I think for me it was just a part of my upbringing. And it was a little bit fun. It added some sense of oh, I’m in on the secret kind of deal.

And I think the secret is not so exclusionary. It’s not devastating for other people. I think the secret is that God loves us and calls us to love our neighbor. And sometimes the simple things are — we have to think of something more complex to entertain ourselves, but that’s really just a distraction from doing the work that we’re called to do. And that’s why I think at the bottom, it really is this sense of desiring escape instead of taking ownership over what we’ve been called to do.

Anthony: Yes. Yes. I hear you. And I say, amen. You can keep prediction addiction. If I can use celebration of devastation, because that, to me, that’s a smoke screen. It’s a way for people to hide and not to engage. Like you said, whether it’s neighbor, justice issues, whatever the case may be. It is certainly not a — I don’t think — a faithful expression of the gospel and it’s not in fidelity with the Scriptures.

Some use this particular passage to construct a doctrine of rapture. And I’m just wondering, Stephen, from your perspective, will some be taken while others are left behind what’s going on?

Stephen: No, I, as again I was taught the rapture as some sort of fact that, I just don’t think the Scriptures have actual a concept of and it again is, an escapist mentality and a little bit sci-fi. It scratches that itch for some science fiction and, they made those movies however long [ago]. Those were part of my upbringing, the whole Left Behind movies.

And it does psychologically give us a sense of feeling important in elevation above other people. That we’re the ones that are going to be taken. And, oh, you’re just going to be left behind and you’ll see, you’re going to struggle.

And instead of, like I said, taking the ownership of doing the gospel work here and now you just anticipate leaving it all behind and being able to — it almost gives justification and permission to indifference and to apathy for suffering.

And almost gives you the permission to see people as enemies that you’re allowed to hate. Instead of as people that you’re called to love. And if there’s these people that are going to be left behind and you’re the chosen one, then you’re justified theologically in excluding them.

And you’re justified theologically in hating them and considering them less than. And it really puts that calling off yourself to do the kingdom work and to love those people. But it lets you demonize them. And yeah, there’s a lot I can say about this.

I did do a book at one point on the rapture that I’ve since pulled it off circulation just for various reasons, but I do still think that it’s a really problematic doctrine. I think scripturally there’s really no genuine justification for it. It is a kind of a modern concept. I think a lot of people don’t really understand that it’s something that really wasn’t on anybody’s radar until maybe the last few hundred years.

I think John Darby was the first one to propose it as an idea, and it really took off from the popularity of his commentary. And so, it’s a newer idea. Most of the church fathers had no concept to this. And it’s something I think has had a devastating effect on the Christian Church and on our witness.

And theologically, what does it say about God that God would abandon these people? That God would almost take joy in their destruction, in their fate? And I think one of the beautiful things about Barth’s theology especially is (I come back to) he makes such a point where, God does not will to be God without us.

And that’s the heart of God for the human race, not to leave us behind, not to celebrate destroying many of them. But that God does not define himself as the one who chooses not to be without us. God doesn’t need us. Obviously, God doesn’t need us. He’s not dependent upon us, but out of this greatness of God’s love, God chooses not to be God without us.

And that’s what the incarnation is, that now and forever within the triune life, there is a human being. Jesus Christ who bears the scars of our existence. And that’s the profoundness of God’s dedication to us.

And so, it [the concept of the rapture] completely denies that message and flips it on its head and said that, yeah, it’s for some people, but not for everybody else. That God’s perfectly happy just getting rid of these people and leaving them behind. And I think that just contradicts who God is.

So yeah, there’s a lot there. I’m very much think the rapture is one of those doctrines that has just kept around more because of how it fits already with our own thinking.

It’s not baptized thinking, I guess you could say. It’s not a way of thinking that corresponds to the greatness of God’s love and kindness. It’s something that fits very well within our own fallen approach to the world. And so, I think that’s the reason why it’s persisted for so long, I would say is because it isn’t something that challenges us necessarily to be more Christlike.

If anything, it pulls us away from that. And so, it’s an easy doctrine to accept because it speaks that we’re special. These other people aren’t, and it speaks to this very, like I said, exclusionist — it justifies hatred and all these things I’ve said. And so, I think it’s such an interesting belief that’s persisted.

And I understand that many people still do accept it, but I think I would challenge those people, scripturally and historically and theologically, to really question this. That’s not the way of thinking that Christ has called us to. Being renewed by our mind, doesn’t lead to this sort of approach.

And so that’s one thing for me growing up, it was one of those doctrines that has had a psychological effect more than it had a biblical or a scripture or a theological route. And so, returning to those, I think that can help relieve the doctrine itself.

Anthony: Yeah, well said. It’s rooted in fear. And James Cone wrote that if we cannot recognize the truth, then it cannot liberate us from untruth. And of course, the context in which he’s writing it is different, but I think it can be applied here. That we just can’t see it. And we have to first look at Jesus who is the embodiment and the fullness and totality of truth. And this just doesn’t align with who he’s revealed the Father to be.

Stephen, I’m so grateful for you saying yes to the invitation to be a guest here on Gospel Reverb. It’s been a delight to talk with you and to hear your insights. I think this is going to be a rich blessing to our listening audience. And certainly, we hope that the Father, Son, and Spirit continue to bless you to encourage you, to give you insight as you continue to write and speak that all would come to the knowledge that the truth revealed in Jesus Christ.

As is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we’d like to close with prayer. So, if you would be willing, would you please just say a closing prayer over our listening audience and the work of the Spirit in their lives.

Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, I just say thanks again to you and appreciate it.

Yeah, happy to pray. We’ve talked about hope in the resurrection and the kingdom a lot, so I think can’t go wrong with the Lord’s Prayer. It’s really the center for me of what it is to pray. And so, I’ll conclude with that.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL.  Until then, peace be with you!

Love in Action – Inclusion & Belonging w/ Elizabeth Mullins

Welcome to the GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience. Here are your hosts, Cara Garrity and Charissa Panuve.

Cara: Hello everyone, and welcome to GC Podcast. I am so happy to introduce you to my co-host for this quarter, Charissa Panuve. Charissa is a GCI member in the Fiji church, and she’s currently based in Thailand because she is a swimmer, and she is full time training for the Olympics while in Thailand. So, she is awesome in that way. And in her GCI congregation, she enjoys youth get-togethers, fellowshipping within the church and sharing with each other both joys as well as burdens.

I’m so happy, Charissa, to welcome you as my co-host on the podcast for this quarter. Thank you so much for being here with us.

Charissa: Hi everyone. And hi, Cara.  So grateful for the opportunity to be here and co-host alongside you. I’m so excited to get into it.

Cara: Absolutely. So why don’t we just jump on in then. In this episode for today, we’re going to be exploring, with Elizabeth Mullins, our guests, what role inclusion and belonging plays in the mission and witness of the Love Avenue.

So, Charissa, when you think about belonging, what comes to mind for you?

Charissa: Hmm, well, I feel like belonging is about comfortability and inclusion. And there are different factors that come to play to feel that, or feel those things, which are attitude of people around you and the environment you’re in. To me, I feel that actions speak louder than words.

So actively being there for people and their needs, I think helps them feel included. And just when you’re not feeling like you’re being judged, you feel comfortable. And I think that helps you feel like you belong.

Cara: Yeah. I really like that point that you make that actions are louder than words when it comes to belonging. So, thank you for sharing that. Let’s go ahead and listen to what Elizabeth Mullins has to share in our interview.

Cara: Hello friends and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches. I’m your host Cara Garrity. And today I am overjoyed to interview Elizabeth Mullins, who is a GCI elder, and works with the media team as Publications Coordinator.

Thank you so much for being here with us today, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: Oh, thanks for having me. I’m pretty fond of you. So, this is going to be fun!

Cara: Oh, it is going to be a lot of fun and especially today, we’re going to be exploring what inclusion and belonging have to do with the ministry of the Love Avenue. And so, I’m really excited for that.

So, let’s just jump right on in and start there. What does creating an inclusive community have to do with the ministry of the Love Avenue?

Elizabeth: Everything. Right? Our desire [is] for others to experience belonging with us, particularly in the Love Avenue — so ultimately Jesus is the one making the invitation and he’s invited all. So that’s why inclusion matters. Are we done? Is this shortest podcast ever?

Cara: We could be done right there.

Elizabeth: That’s a lot but seriously, what are we even talking about when we say the word inclusion? I think in GCI, we have this good practice of walking the what question back to the who question. So, who are people included into? We’re included into the life of the triune God.

And I know that our listeners know this; I believe that we believe this. So, then the question becomes, how do we reflect that? How can I welcome in new people? How can I gather with new people whose lived experiences might not look anything like my own and still communicate to that person that you belong, and you’re called into the body. And what in the world does that even look like?

Cara, when you ask me to do this podcast I had doubts, and I told you, I’m not an expert. But I do look forward to wrestling with this topic with you today. I feel like I have more questions about inclusion than I have answers, but if this conversation increases our awe and wonder for an inclusive God, then I think it’ll be good.

Cara: Amen. And there’s something about that posture, Elizabeth, that I think is part of that holy mystery of being the church — Jesus’ church in the world, that sometimes we have more questions than answers, right? But it doesn’t rest on us. As you said, Jesus is the one that’s choosing and it’s in him that we’re included in the life of the Father, Son, and Spirit.

And so, at the end of the day, it’s not that we need these nice clean-cut answers to what an inclusive community, what belonging really even means and looks like, but it’s how are we participating in the belonging that God has already created? And how are we allowing him to bring us deeper into that in real, tangible ways? Like we’re putting flesh on our theology, making it real incarnational, in that sense. Absolutely.

And what you were saying this idea of, we believe this, and we believe the who we’re included in. So, what does that actually mean? What does that look like? Let’s start with, what do you believe some characteristics of inclusion and belonging are?

Elizabeth: First, I just want to back up for a second and say that I appreciate what you just said about putting flesh on it. It does seem like we could talk about belonging, we could talk about inclusion all day, but it has to be experienced. And I was just saying to someone recently that community is like this giant learning lab.

Cara: Yes!

Elizabeth: Yeah. But what are some characteristics of inclusivity? I hope you’ll be patient with me because this first thought that I had might be more abstract than you intended, but I trust that as we keep going, we’re going to get more concrete, more specific.

But the first thought that I had actually speaks to motivation. And I don’t know if some of our listeners are like me, but a lot of times I’m not interested in a bunch of how-tos until you’ve convinced me of the why. So, for me, an important characteristic is witness.

Something I’ve been wrestling with is that inclusion is actually my calling. That if we’re part of the body of Christ, if we are part of the church, that we’re called to bear witness to this reality of belonging. And it’s not always visible. It’s not always visible to other people. So, we witnessed to that.

There’s a quote I heard years ago that I love and I’m embarrassed that I don’t know who said it. I even tried to look it up, but I can’t find it. So, I apologize I can’t source it. But it says the church is the visible manifestation of the invisible reality of the kingdom.

Isn’t that good?

Cara: That’s real good. Yeah.

Elizabeth: Yeah. So, if the gathering church is the thin place, right? Where the veil is pulled back, that’s a responsibility to bear that witness to people that they are included in the triune God. Colossians 1:15 says that the Son is the visible representation of an invisible God. And not that — we’re not God to anybody. Right? We are not Jesus to people because we’re all setting aside that savior complex, right?

Cara: Yes. Amen.

Elizabeth: Or trying to. But aren’t we called to participate in that reality? And I’m convinced that participation holds this kind of holy tension, the way that so much of our Christian life is a paradox, the way that a paradox is two seemingly opposite things but can both be true — like the already not yet.

And I believe that discipleship asks us to live into that tension of paradox. And that paradox says that, because there’s a calling on my life, I do have a responsibility to live into participation with Christ, that I have a responsibility to witness and gather his body.

And yet, I’m not responsible for the outcome. So, the Spirit does a really fine job of convicting people. But man! Whew, holding that tension? It’s difficult sometimes.

Cara: I was just going to comment on what you’re saying. I think what you’ve named is so, so important for a couple of reasons. First, getting to this, why is this even important?

It’s not just, we want sunshine and rainbows version of church, where we’re talking about an inclusivity of “can’t we all just get along? Can’t we all just have fun together and hold hands in a circle?” That’s not what we’re talking about. What we’re talking about I think you’ve gotten right to the heart of, that when we talk about the church, the people of God, the kind of inclusion that we are called to, it’s because of who God is and who we are as the church, the God and his kingdom that we’re witnessing to.

He’s the one doing the including. It’s his kingdom that’s an inclusive kingdom; we’re just participating in it. And so, it’s not just because we think it would be better if everyone [could] just get along, we think it would be easier if there wasn’t just — whatever, or if anyone could just show up and walk in through the doors. It’s like you said, there is a responsibility because of who our God is, because of how he works, because of his ways, because of the kingdom that he is bringing at hand and will establish for all of eternity.

And so, what you name about even sitting in the paradox of that is, we do get called into participating and then also hold loosely that we’re not responsible for those results. So, we don’t want to fall into that trap of it either. But we don’t let ourselves off the hook for taking seriously that if we are taking seriously that our God is who he says he is, and we’re witnessing to a God who has included all people, wouldn’t we bear witness to that and make that a little bit more tangible, make that a little bit more experienced here on earth, on this side of eternity?

I think that’s so important because like you said, before we even get to the how-tos, why? Why should we care? And we should care because God has showed us that he cares.

So that’s yeah, that’s really good. Thank you for naming that for us, Elizabeth. And you can go on. What else were you going to say about some characteristics of inclusivity?

Elizabeth: Yeah. Thank you for your thoughts. I love that phrase of holding loosely, and I think that’s an important characteristic. And it lends to what I was going to say next.

Because it can be difficult to hold loosely and to live in that tension, I believe another important characteristic is courage. Because we will have fear, but we can face our fear with courage because what does the testimony of the Bible tell us? What can separate us from the love of Christ? What can threaten our inclusion in this membership — our full membership as God’s children? Nothing! If our full membership is contingent on Christ and his finished work, then that should fill us with courage and hope. And lead us to ask the next question, which is okay, how do we image this in community now?

Ultimately, we’re not the gatekeepers, right? We’re not the gatekeepers of Jesus’ kingdom. And I think it takes courage to really live into the fact that inclusion doesn’t mean assimilation. It’s not equal to total agreement or uniformity. But we can still communicate inclusion.

I think it’s like holding up a mirror to other people and saying, “You are loved, you’re worthy of belonging. You’re an image bearer.” And calling them up. Because I really think it does call people up to say, “You know what? You are able to receive love and to give love. This is your true self.”

And so, I’m just learning to remember that it’s my calling to witness to this inclusion, and that it’s going to require courage.

Cara: Yes. And I really like that word. That word that you use of gatekeeping just really struck me because if we’re talking about inclusion, as based in, as accomplished in, as given to us and fulfilled in Jesus, we actually aren’t the ones — we don’t create inclusion — God is the one creating and gifting this inclusion to us.

And so really at the end of the day, it’s just responding to that reality of inclusion that we’re invited to, participating in that. And so, I like that image that you evoked of gatekeeping because when we’re not participating in inclusion, it’s not like that inclusion doesn’t already exist in Christ! But we can, as communities of gathering, act as gatekeepers to others experiencing this reality — that we know and should be actually proclaiming and witnessing to rather than gatekeeping.

But it’s not that we create the inclusion or not, because Christ has already done that for us. And so, I think that’s a powerful word to think about. Are we gatekeeping others’ experience of Christ and his kingdom?

As I think about what you talked about with the need to have courage in participating in inclusion as a community and mirroring that, I wonder what other mindsets or habits, ways of thinking or behaving we are invited to surrender to God as we learn to be a more inclusive community?

Elizabeth: For me, this is another question that I feel like addresses spiritual formation and discipleship. Because as Christians, shouldn’t we of all people be open and curious and humble? Aren’t we supposed to be repentant people and eager to learn? But we’re not always. I know I’m not! So, I’m trying to learn to surrender arrogance and certainty by allowing the Spirit to disciple and form me into humility and curiosity and repentance.

I’m not sure that we can discuss inclusion without mentioning bias. And in a lot of the conversations that I have heard around bias, I’ve heard that people will have a fundamental question and that’s, am I good? If they’re pushing back, it’s like they’re thinking consciously or unconsciously, if you say I have bias, am I still good?

And to me, as Christians, as people who are being conformed to a God that condescends, I feel like the answer should be: well, of course we’re bent towards sin! It’s a malformation when I cannot hold the tension that: no, I’m not always good, my actions are not always good, but I am loved. I am valued and I belong.

Those things aren’t mutually exclusive. And my beloved-ness, my valued-ness, it should birth shalom. It should birth a desire for my flourishing to spread out to other people. It should not birth narcissism. I’m special. No. I think it can birth narcissism if it’s not rooted and centered in this story that we embrace that God is a God who defeats evil by self-giving love. He didn’t defeat evil by putting up more walls, by trying to put up walls to exclude. He destroyed the dividing wall of hostility between us and God and between each other.

Yeah, I just am learning that everybody carries a story that I don’t know. And their stories carry much more complexity and more pain and more beauty than I can possibly know. So, it takes me surrendering that I know it all and that I can control everything.

Cara: Yeah. I really like that. It’s a simple, but really challenging thing to remember just that everyone has their own story that they carry. But what would it look like if we remember that and see that in the context of God’s larger story with all of humanity, and just allow that to be — even when we don’t understand — allow that to be enough, that we’re all part of God’s larger story, rather than I think you said that word control.

And I think that can be a big part of when we struggle with creating spaces of belonging, when we don’t understand, or we want to control things, or we feel out of control because we don’t understand. But what if it was just enough that all of our unique individual stories really were part of God’s larger story with humanity, whether we understood it or not, because he’s the one that’s writing the story of belonging. I don’t know. Because coming back to what you were saying, we’re giving up the savior complex. What would that look like if we let God kind be in charge of that? I don’t know.

Elizabeth: Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. I like you using the word understanding. I so often use the word certainty, but that’s good. We can love somebody without understanding everything that’s going on with them.

Cara: Yes. And I think sometimes when we think about, especially in a community context and creating practices as a community of inclusion and belonging, a lot of times it is, in my experience, it’s been that barrier of understanding, because we don’t understand something, then we feel threatened.

We don’t know what’s going on so we don’t know what might happen, or we don’t understand this particular life experience. So, it’s safer to be in a comfortable bubble than to be courageous, like you said, to witness to the fact that whether we understand or not, we all have belonging in Christ. Whether we understand or not, God is in our midst. Whether we understand or not, he is drawing us all into his love and his kingdom and conforming us into his image as we’re always meant to be.

So, it’s more the question of, less of do we understand, and do we feel a little scared, but more are we going to participate in and what God is doing right here and now? Whether we understand with our temporal minds what’s going on or not. I think we can get tripped up over understanding and needing to feel like we can be in in control.

And that’s something that I’ve seen and experience that’s part of that surrendering. And like you said, coming back to spiritual formation, are we allowing ourselves to be formed by God to actually surrender to God? And like you said to admit, maybe we are bent towards sin.

Maybe that is kind of why he came to be one of us and to walk amongst us and to give us a new humanity. And so maybe it is okay to trust him with those parts of ourselves that are ugly. And maybe say, oh, because I don’t understand this person, or I feel a little bit threatened. I don’t want to be near them, maybe our God is understanding enough, caring enough, loving enough.

Maybe he gets it enough that we can trust him with that part of ourselves and say, could you do something with this? Because I know it’s not your desire and your heart for me, you’ve made that clear, but the reality is this is where I’m at. And I think that he’s a God that is so happy and so willing to transform his people into the wholeness and the new humanity that he’s always intended for us. But if we’re stubborn and say, oh no, we could never think that way, we’re not sinful people, I think we miss out a little bit on that beautiful opportunity to be transformed by him in community with others.

Elizabeth: Yeah. So true.

Cara: And I think about that and being transformed in community with others as ministry leaders, sometimes we have a particular influence on the tone of a community or the tone that sets. So, what are some ways, Elizabeth, that you’ve had to learn to be more inclusive, particularly as a leader in ministry?

Elizabeth: I have to admit, speaking of what you just said about turning with confidence that that Jesus isn’t shocked by anything, I don’t always lean into community. I am sometimes plagued by feelings of not feeling like I’m worthy of love and belonging, of not having enough courage to trust.

So, I’m learning myself as a leader that, I can’t be asking people to lean into community if I’m not doing that. And as I do that, I do see that we can be made for belonging. It can be our true selves, our birthright, and we can really long for connection, which I think is what we’re really talking about here is the connection and the healing that we experience in relationship. But I’m learning that just because we long for connection, it doesn’t mean we always know what to do with it once we find it or get it.

Cara: Yes.

Elizabeth: Proximity in a gathering is not enough. It’s not like it’s this chemical reaction, just add a little vinegar to baking soda and voila. We can gather together but it doesn’t always mean there’s going to be instant connection or that we’re going to experience intimacy and trust, which I think is ultimately what we’re hoping for is — I believe Jesus when he says that we’re better together and that he is going to conform us to his image. And the body is one of the ways that happens.

But I am learning as a leader that so many of us, we did not have attuned, empathetic caregivers when we were growing up. We simply did not learn healthy connection developmentally. Like I said, I have a lot of questions, but one thing I think I’m convinced of that it’s a skillset we can learn. That we are being transformed by Jesus’ presence. And that the Holy Spirit is tutoring us to be other-centered.

So, for me, part of becoming a healthy leader is taking stock of my own trauma and the areas where I’m identifying that I lack emotional intelligence, and maybe that means seeking out therapy.

But am I able to identify my own trauma and my own hurts? Do I even know how to identify my own emotions so that I can observe and identify it in other people? I think that’s important for place-sharing. Can I sit in the discomfort of another person’s pain without feeling like I have to fix it or run from it or make a joke. And I’m going to have a really difficult time of doing that, of place-sharing, if I haven’t owned my own pain.

I also believe that a new person’s question will be, whether consciously or unconsciously, am I too much? If we’re sitting with another person in their emotions, whether it’s joy or whether it’s sadness, how are we answering that question of am I too much?

I believe that discipleship has this beautiful circular quality, that I am being formed through the solitary. I am being tutored by the Spirit. I am being changed by Jesus’ presence, but I’m also being formed by the collective.

I want to read a quote from Cole Arthur Riley in her book “This Here Flesh” that I think really speaks to that concept. And she says, “We’re made for belonging and maybe you’ve heard it said that you need to learn how to be alone before you can be with someone. But I say, you have to learn how to be with and part of something in order to know how to be alone. I think it’s only in a deep anchoring in community that one can ever be free to explore the solitary.”

So yeah, I’m trying to learn that the Spirit disciples me in and through community.

Cara: Yeah. And I love that. Just thinking even about that question of, am I too much? So as whether ministry leaders or just members of a gathering church community, part of creating spaces of belonging, is there actually space for us to exist with one another?

And if we’re not tutored and practicing, as you’re speaking to, of just existing alongside one another, then can we feel like we belong? Can we feel like there’s enough space for us if we’re always feeling like we’re bumping up against maybe someone’s discomfort with how I’m feeling right now or things? So that ability to grow and to learn ourselves in community.

Yeah. That’s not something I would’ve thought of, but I really appreciate that you bring that up because how we move through a space and how we even understand and know and are familiar with how we are moving through a space does impact, right? We are communal beings. We are created for connection.

It impacts how that space is received by other people or whether people can be received into that space. And I’m sure we’ve all felt that too, when maybe we’ve felt too much for other people because there just wasn’t enough space for us to belong and just exist in that moment.

And so, I think that you’ve named a really important way, but maybe not right off the bat obvious way, that we as ministry leaders and members of the gathering church community can be intentional about learning and practicing to be more inclusive people, people of belonging.

That’s excellent. So, as you’re journeying in developing what belonging, what inclusion, what these rhythms and practices looks like, how are you learning to share what you’re learning and how you’re growing with the gathering church community so that we can maybe I’ll start to grow a little bit more together?

Elizabeth: Yeah. I feel like this is the question where we — where I can start getting a little more concrete. But I am chewing on what you just said. So, I just want to pause for a minute. I appreciate the affirmation from you because I wasn’t sure that as I was wrestling through this, if it’s too abstract, too ethereal.

But it came to me as you were speaking back what I was saying and mirroring it to me, that we can make sure that we have representation in our images. We can make sure we have a wheelchair ramp, that we are using microphones for hearing impairment. We can do a lot of things to be welcoming in our gathering, just kind of surface welcoming. But I really think that the healing that we’re promised and that we can participate in, it does come from these deep connections that we make, the way that we bear the image of God to one another and the way that we just reflect his acceptance and his love.

I think you could actually have a lot of concrete things in place and have somebody attend and still not feel seen or feel connection.

Cara: Yeah. And as you were saying that that’s exactly what I was thinking of. We can have as community, a lot of accommodations that might seem inclusive and maybe they are tangible actions of inclusion, but without that relational aspect, are we going to fall short of true belonging?

Because, for example, if you have a ramp for somebody with a physical challenge who can’t walk up the steps or something, so they can get into your church building, but then everyone’s too uncomfortable to look them in the eye and greet them because their disability makes them uncomfortable. Yes, your building is accessible, but are they going to feel belonging?

Elizabeth: Exactly. Yeah.

Cara: And yeah, I think what you’ve named is, that’s the real — that’s where the church comes in and I think can mirror the belonging of the kingdom versus just the accessibility that is like pretty standard and a lot of places in the world. Right?

But I think this is where we’re called to that higher calling of the belonging that we find and can participate in God versus just like some architectural feats. Yeah. As you were saying, so you can get in the building without being seen. I think you’re right about that.

Elizabeth: So, to your question, back to your question.

Cara: We’re both like, woo!

Elizabeth: I think this sort of gets to both, maybe it straddles the fence of we’re talking about connection, but hopefully, I was trying to think of some tangible things. I like that you use that word tangible. We’re recording this in August and the podcast won’t be published till October, but I had recently helped work on a Church Hack that we can put in the show notes. It’s not official, but as I was working on it, I jokingly to myself was titling it, Don’t be weird.

I have to explain, give the whole backstory for why I landed on that word, weird. At least for myself, I know that words can be loaded, and they can carry different meaning for different people. When my husband, Anthony and I were replanting or relaunching a congregation in Hickory, my mantra for that fellowship when we would be talking about welcoming guests and welcoming in new people to our gathering, I was constantly saying, we’re going to eliminate the awkward. But I’ve actually had to repent and rethink that phrase because I was thinking about it — can getting to know a new person feel awkward and uncomfortable? Absolutely! It can.

When I say weird, I guess I’m thinking more of behavior that’s not going to be received as courteous. In the U.S., we use the word weird and this fun, loving way to mean unique or eccentric, like Keep Austin weird.  So I don’t mean that I don’t mean unique and eccentric. All of you people out there being unique and eccentric, you just keep trucking on.

So no, but I think of it this way. Cara, have you ever had an encounter that left you feeling uneasy or confused and afterwards you turn to a friend, and you just say, that was weird!

Cara: Yes. That kind of weird

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think we’ve all had that.

We’re trying to connect with somebody and we’re missing each other. We’re always going to miss each other a little bit but like in a way that you’re just left feeling like, that was weird.

Many of our GCI leaders have been through the GiANT CORE training. And that’s an important part of that training, remember, was to ask the question, what is it like to be on the other side of me?

One of the ways that I’m learning — I’m really trying to answer this question. I’m learning to share about inclusion is learning self-awareness. So, when we’re getting to know new people, when we’re welcoming guests, we do want to eliminate the weird, as far as behavior that’s rude or specifically behavior that’s self-centered. I think our gatherings can feel weird if there’s a lot of ambiguity and chaos, and we definitely don’t want to be coercive to people.

And I think we can be received that way, if we over talk, if we’re doing all the talking or we’re asking intrusive questions.

My favorite question for new people when they’re talking to me, is to say something like, oh, that sounds wonderful. Or (maybe it’s awful) that sounds awful. Would you like to tell me more about that? So, then the ball is in their court. They can take the lead if they want to tell me more or if they don’t.

I also think, like we were talking about tension in the paradox of calling but holding loosely to the outcome, I think hospitality invites us to lean into tension also. And I think in pictures and thinking about hospitality, I imagine this like a sliding scale.

And if on the far side, on the far-left side, imagine that as comfort. And you could just picture a member of the existing community that they know they belong. So, on the left side, you’ve got comfort and I know I belong.

And then clear on the other side of the scale, on the right side, you’ve got discomfort. And I don’t know if I belong here. I don’t know if I can belong here. And to me, hospitality looks like if I’m over there on the left side of comfort, can I move towards the other person’s discomfort? Can I have the space to hold their discomfort and my discomfort for a little while? Just so I can join them there in order to bring them along, back over to the left, into comfort.

Cara: That’s a good visual.

Elizabeth: Yeah. So, meeting new people can feel uncertain, especially when we make an idol out of being in control. Including people can feel uncomfortable and awkward, but I think that we can embrace that tension for the other person’s good.

Cara: Yeah. When you bring up that word of like weird and avoiding that, let’s not be weird. I think about that idea of when you’re at the dinner table with your best friends or whatever, you behave a certain way, in a way you maybe might not to a stranger. I think our churches can sometimes be like that.

When in our gathering church community, we do become way on that left side, so comfortable with each other. We know that we belong, we become this inward facing, in our circle. But isn’t it kind of weird when somebody new, when a stranger accidentally gets caught up in that and they don’t know what’s going on or they don’t know what to expect. They don’t know what those inside jokes mean. They don’t really know if they’re even supposed to be there.

I think that’s that kind of weird that you’re talking about where, when we’re thinking about the Love Avenue and witnessing and being engaged in the ministry of Jesus’ mission, we don’t want to be so — some different phrases for it are closed set or inward thinking. Where it’s just about me and my table with my group of best friends that we have all our inside jokes. And it’s really weird if a stranger comes up and we don’t actually welcome them in a way that is reasonable because we’re still acting like it’s just us at the table.

And so, I think that our churches we can sometimes be like that. Because we’re family and that’s great. But sometimes family has guests over for dinner and you probably should act right so that guest feel welcomed instead of overwhelmed a little bit. And that’s where I think you’re saying that hospitality comes in: how do you bring them into the family versus let them feel ostracized, because they don’t know what’s going on in that family dynamic or environment?

Elizabeth: Yeah. That’s a good example. And how often, after you’ve eased somebody into your inside jokes, they do become family or a close friend? But while you’re in that getting-to-know phase, you’re going to be other centered for them.

Cara: Yes. And that idea of other-centeredness, I think, is really key that we warm ourselves up to that. It’s okay to think about others for a little bit and building spaces of belonging and thinking about how does that get embedded in the rhythm and the fabric of our gathering church communities.

And as we’re getting closer to wrapping up our time, just quickly, I know that we’ve been talking about some really great stuff. And I think that it’s really important in how we witness to who our God is. And it’s also challenging. We’ve talked a little bit to that.

And so just what are some challenges that you could name of building rhythms of an inclusive community that you just want to name so that we’re maybe aware of and can be prepared for when we encountered them on the journey?

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think we could do an entire podcast on this but for sake of the listener’s time, I will just drop these in here.

I think a big challenge to an inclusive community is that the existing community will likely have to make some changes. For new people, we will have to make some accommodations for people to feel like they belong. And honestly the opposite of that — can we just name it? That’s cultish. That’s when a church feels like a private social club, when the new members are expected to make all the accommodations to belong. That’s actually cultish.

Cara: yeah. Very closed, yeah.

Elizabeth: I think if you’re going to have, if an inclusive community is an important value for you, your church is not going to look like a monolith. It’s not going to be homogenous, but we can honor the image of God in other people without full agreement.

We can say, I see God in you. I value your belonging without full uniformity and assimilation. And it also challenges us that we’ve got to separate behavior from belonging. Do I know what this looks like? No! This is the stuff, as we were saying.

But I honestly do believe that we can hold up a mirror to people, that it does call people up to say, look, you’re included in this community where we participate in Jesus’ healing. And because he’s healing us, we don’t harm ourselves or other people. And then we trust the Spirit’s work in their life.

Cara: Yeah.

Elizabeth: Is that close?

Cara: Yeah, no. And that is a stuff, like you’re saying, that’s the hard, messy. What is it you said earlier — the lab of community? It’s not cut and dry, but it’s good and sacred work.

Yeah. What are some of the risks? If we don’t meet these challenges of nurturing inclusive community, what’s at stake?

Elizabeth: That the people we encounter won’t see that they’re being called into the body too. This is huge. If the gathering church promises connection and inclusion and healing and — not if, I mean it does. But if what other people have experienced is rejection and exclusion and harm, then gathering is going to feel pretty terrifying to them. So why would we put up additional obstacles?

And this formation that occurs in his body, it counters that narrative of shame and isolation. And that’s the biblical testimony that our belonging to the body of Christ is healing, and we really are better together.

Cara: Yeah.

And it’s almost — and I’m hesitant to say these words. So, I want to bring us back to what you mentioned about this paradox of tension, that we’re invited into the responsibility of participation, but we don’t shoulder the responsibility of results. But it almost seems, after our conversation today that in some way, what’s at stake is the witness of the church.

Because if we’re not living as the church witnessing to the belonging of God’s people, what are we witnessing to, right? Who are we witnessing to? And so, I say that not to, and the reason I hesitate is it’s not in a scary way of, oh, now we got to hurry up and get our witness, get our act together. But to say, this is not just a cute, little ministry hack, right?

This is how, are we faithfully responding to what God is doing in our midst and who he is?

Elizabeth: Mmhmm. Years ago, I used to love a Christian artist named Jennifer Knapp. And one of her songs that I loved was like an allegory about the bride of Christ. And there was a line in there that said, how dare you say that she’s broken and used. [Guest used a paraphrase. Song title: Hold Me Now.]

And that makes me emotional just saying it, but it came to mind with what you were saying — is that the church is his spotless bride, and he adores her. Jesus thinks she’s beautiful. So, man, we got to participate in that beauty!

Cara: Yeah. And it’s a wonderful thing. It’s a wonderful thing, as messy as it is, as we’re learning, it’s a beautiful thing.

In our last few minutes, I do want to give us the opportunity to get maybe even more practical about what this can mean in the day-to-day living of the church body. And I do want to name too, that we, on this side of eternity, we have limits, we have temporal limits individually, collectively.

And so, there is discernment that is important when we’re part of building what inclusivity, what belonging looks like for each particular gathering church community. For example, I have particular limitations by the languages that I speak at this current place and time. And that’s just a reality on this side of eternity.

But given that kind of context, what are some ways — let’s just brainstorm quickly before the end of our time together, what are some examples of ways that the gathering church can think of, can take seriously removing barriers to become more inclusive to God’s people?

Elizabeth: I like what you said, because we can’t be all things to all people. Because actually that’s what we were saying about if you get underneath inclusion, it’s really about the connection. If you can’t connect? And Heber Ticas has done such a great job in helping us see the difference between missional and missionary. And if there’s no commonality, then you’re probably being a missionary.

There are things that we unintentionally, barriers we unintentionally erect particularly for folks with disabilities. We have a church hack on accessibility, and we can link that and then show notes here.

Here’s what I want to say too, about what we can do. And I hope this is concrete.

Cara: Go for it.

Elizabeth: I feel like another question a new person is going to be asking consciously or unconsciously is, am I too different?

So, we’ve really got to think about how we’re answering that question. Because we can say with our mouths and with our signs, all are welcome, but what are others experiencing with us?

Because we do experience belonging in our bodies. We want to be fully seen and fully loved. We want to show up with our full selves and the incarnation teaches us that our embodied experiences matter. Therefore, we do see, we see race, we see gender, we see disability, we see family and marital status.

We can acknowledge the differences. And because the society elevates certain identities over others — it just does. We see able-bodied, married, educated, folks without intellectual disabilities, folks that aren’t neurodiverse, elevated all the time. So, we have to, I think as a church we have to ask, are we elevating certain people groups? Or do we have a diversity in the images that we use and in our leaders? If only one type of person is being represented, who might be erased? Who’s being erased by this?

I think our language matters, just to give a few examples. I have been in far too many settings where multiple people use the phrase elders’ wives. So, who’s erased by that. We have elders that are unmarried. We have elder that have husbands. I’ve been in church settings where people prayed for a particular political candidate, because there was an assumption that everybody there must be voting for the same person And that’s getting back to that assumption of uniformity.

I have witnessed messages and prayers for someone to have children or praying for someone to find a spouse. And that’s making an assumption that they want to have children or that they’re they want to get married. I’ve been in a setting where the speaker said in speaking about what our priorities should be, they said it should be God first, spouse second, and then your ministry work. And I just think we don’t stop to think about who’s erased by that. What about the people who don’t have a spouse?

Because here’s the thing about uniformity. We shouldn’t expect uniformity, but we should assume that we all have the same needs. And by that, I mean, what does it mean to be human? And it’s safe to say that we’re dehumanizing another if we fail to recognize that they have all the universal needs that all humans have. So, it made me feel like when I heard that statement that — I wish that speaker had said, God, then important relationships, then your ministry or something like that. Because [otherwise] it makes the assumption that people who aren’t married don’t have the same need for community and connection. They do. Everybody has! Assume we all have the same needs for that kind of connection and community.

Cara: And when you think about in, and even those examples you’ve given, when we think about communities of belonging, if you were to put yourself in the shoes of somebody who didn’t fit the assumed criteria or life circumstance, then there’s this uncomfortability that you can imagine you may experience of, oh, then is this space for me if this is what is assumed? Do I actually belong here?

And so, it’s those ways that we actually undercut belonging through our language and the assumed status quo or uniformity because casual language that we might use, it sends a signal. Oh, this is what the expectation or the standard is. And then if you don’t meet that, it’s oh do I actually belong here? Is this space for me? And not just that is this space for me, but it can even be as serious as, is this good news for somebody like me? Is Jesus for somebody like me?

Elizabeth: Yes. And that’s huge. Isn’t it?

Cara: Yeah. Yeah, sure is.

Elizabeth: I think most of what I’ve learned, I learned from making mistakes. And here’s an important lesson that I learned, and listeners are probably going to laugh, because it’s duh. But I’m going to just tell on myself. And that’s ask the person! Go to the person. You can say, we want you to belong here, so how can we help you experience that?

Let’s say somebody shows up who’s never been to your gathering before, whether it’s Love Avenue or your Hope Avenue and they have an accessibility need. Well, you don’t convene a meeting with your team to talk about them or discuss what you can do for them. Talk to them, subject to subject. We want this gathering to be accessible for you. What do you need?

If that scares you as a ministry leader, look, I understand that we may not be able to accommodate everything that a person asks for, but that’s where the courage comes in, I think. That’s why we work these things out in community.

I honestly believe that avoiding conflict, it’s doesn’t get us to deeper relationship. Research from social scientists is showing us that relationships that have no discord, that demonstrate no conflict, aren’t actually the strongest relationship, because people are probably repressing, hiding. Conflict is normal.

Research that’s coming out from psychologists and therapists like that, they’re saying that, when people face up to conflict or acknowledge that there’s been a rupture and then they intentionally make repair, that those are actually the relationships that have the most resiliency and have the most trust. I just don’t think we can muscle our way into inclusive belonging by pretending that no differences exist.

Cara: Yes. And what you’ve said is actually a very practical, if not one of the most practical pieces of advice that can be given, because we can’t be all things to all people, we can’t know all things. And even if we were to be a quote unquote expert on a particular life experience, every person’s actually different.

And so even if you had a PhD in disability studies, the person who showed up to your event might have different needs than the next person that shows up to your event. And so, to assume, or to make decisions without somebody is actually not creating that belonging in community, but it’s just this idea of doing something to or for which is, it’s like baby inclusion, right?

But we want to, again, to go a step beyond into that belonging of the kingdom. And so, I think that really is the most practical thing is ask questions and be curious and go to the place that might be uncomfortable. But that is relational because even with that particular example, you can meet all ADA requirements, but every person might need a different thing in order to fully be able to participate and you don’t know, unless you ask. And you don’t know what you can or cannot accommodate until you ask what that person may need.

And that’s the same with any kind of matter of belonging when somebody is bringing their full self, no two people are exactly alike. And so, to just make an assumption of, oh, that person’s got a disability and so this is what we’re going to do for them, because all disabilities are alike. Hello, that’s not belonging. And so yeah, I think that’s incredibly practical, even more practical than here’s the checklist of things that we should do to be an inclusive church because that’s the advice that’s going to get us to be a relational church that fosters belonging together as a community.

Do you have any final words as we wrap up? We’ve been having too much fun talking; it’s about time to close up for today.

Elizabeth: No, I just appreciate the opportunity. So, let’s keep going.

Cara: Yes, it has been such a pleasure having this conversation with you, Elizabeth, you’ve shared a lot of really meaningful insights that I will continue to chew on and that I hope our listeners do too.

But before we wrap up fully for today’s episode I have a couple of fun, random questions for you, if you are game. Just whatever first thing comes to mind, it’s like a lightning round—just shout it out. Are you ready?

Elizabeth: I’m ready.

Cara: All right. What fictional family would you be a member of?

Elizabeth: Umbrella Factory [Academy.]

Cara: Oh, Ooh. That’s a good choice.

What is your favorite seasoning?

Elizabeth: Oh, garlic.

Cara: Ooh, also a good choice.

If you could invent a holiday, what would it be? And what would you call it?

Elizabeth: You stumped me on that one. It would be a national beach day where you get paid to go sit on the beach and relax.

Cara: I would celebrate that holiday.

If you were an action figure, what two accessories would you come with?

Elizabeth: A magic lightweight coffee brewer so you could have coffee whenever you wanted and a translator so I could speak any language.

Cara: Ah, I like it. I like it.

What’s something that always gives you childlike joy?

Elizabeth: I think just singing and dancing and joking around with my two daughters and my granddaughter and family.

Cara: Yes. I love that.

And then last question. Would you rather be able to run at a hundred miles per hour or fly at 10 miles per hour?

Elizabeth: Fly. Bird’s eye view.

Cara: Ah, fair enough. Fair enough. Oh, thank you for sharing some silly insider knowledge with us, Elizabeth. And thank you for just being with us here today. I have had a lot of fun chatting with you.

And it is our practice with the pod to end with a word of prayer. So, would you be willing to pray for our churches, pastors, ministry leaders, and gathering church members here with us today?

Elizabeth: I sure will.

Father, Son, and Spirit, we love you. We love your church. We love the way that you have included us. We’re just so grateful that you are who you are and that we are called to participate in that love. We ask for wisdom in knowing what that looks like. We often feel like we don’t know what we’re doing, but we are grateful that you are constantly with us and bringing us along and that you don’t lose patience with us, that you gave us your Spirit, that you, Spirit, are constantly tutoring us and showing us who God is, that you are reminding us that we are rooted and grounded in Jesus, who is the ultimate unanxious presence. And because we are rooted in him, that we can learn to reflect that to the people that we’re ministering to.

I thank you for Cara and for the work that she does. She makes it look so easy, but we know it’s not. So, we’re grateful for her love for you, for her discernment, for the way that she images you and includes new young ministry leaders as her co-host. We’re grateful for the people that she reaches out to and gives a platform to share their voice.

Because I’m on the media team, I know all the behind-the-scenes work. So, I just pray for Reu who is going to be mixing this, who is recording it now. Be with him. Bless the whole media team; give them wisdom and discernment.

We love you, Jesus. And we’re grateful that you do hear our prayers and you’ve included us in your life. In your name, Jesus. Amen.

Cara: Amen.

One of the things that really struck me in this conversation that I had with Elizabeth was the importance of relationship and creating spaces of belonging. It’s not just like a checklist of, okay, now everyone’s included or now we’ve created a sense of belonging, but it’s really grounded in how we’re building relationships with one another.

What was something that stood out to you, Charissa, from our conversation?

Charissa: Oh, I think the list is shorter, if we talked about what didn’t stand out to me,

Cara: Amen.

Charissa: There were so many points that were brought up that were really great and that I could personally relate to, but if I had to highlight one thing, I think it would be the quote of the unknown sayer. Which is the church is the visible manifestation of the invisible reality of the kingdom, which really struck me at how simply put it was said, but how deep and true it actually means.

Cara: Yeah. Oh, I loved that as well. Oh, thank you for bringing that back up as a highlight. And when we think about living out that visible manifestation as one of a person in our younger generations in GCI, what is something that you’ve experienced that maybe has helped create intergenerational sense of belonging and inclusion for you or in your local congregation in GCI Fiji?

Charissa: Oh, well, back at home, I feel like intergenerational belonging and inclusion is very strong. And that really stands out to me because our family days and teachings and when the older generations come and teach the younger generations how-to, whether it be [to] minister or something simple like flower arrangements. I think is very good to help everyone feel belonging and feel included that they want to share that knowledge on how to spread the love of Christ through everything that we do.

Cara: Yeah. I really love that. The passing on of knowledge and mentoring for discipleship, right? The discipling amongst generations is something that can really nurture that sense of belonging and inclusion intergenerationally. That’s a beautiful thing. I’m really glad to hear that. So, thank you so much for sharing that, Charissa, and that insight and experience of yours.

Showing up in mission is a big part of just getting started, and how we show up, I think is another thing that is just as important. And so, the GCI Place-sharing series explores our posture as we show up in relationships with others. Can you tell us a little bit more about the GCI Place-sharing series, Charissa?

Charissa: Sure thing. The GCI Place-sharing series explores a practice of place-sharing through interviews, teachings, and a Q&A panel. Visit www.gci.org/placesharing to check it out and learn what place sharing is, why it’s valuable, and how it reflects the ministry of Jesus.

Cara: Thank you so much. And until next time, everyone, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast.  We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, healthy churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.