Extravagant Worship w/ Dan Rogers

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

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Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view.

I’m your host Anthony Mullins. And it is my joy to welcome this month’s guest, Dr. Dan Rogers. Dan is the current pastor of Grace Communion Las Vegas, after spending 20 years as the Superintendent of U.S. and Mexico ministers in Grace Communion International.  In retirement, Dan not only serves as a pastor, but also continues to teach a course on The Acts of the Apostles and [to teach] Homiletics at Grace Communion Seminary. And I’ve been blessed through the years to know Dan, as a boss, as my Professor of Homiletics, and as a personal friend.

Dan, thank you for joining us today and welcome to the podcast. For those of our listeners who may not know you, please share a little bit about yourself and what you find yourself doing these days.

Dan: Alright. Thank you, Anthony. I appreciate your invitation to be on the podcast.

Tell you a little bit about myself? I grew up in the St. Louis area and went to Ambassador College in Pasadena, California in 1966. I graduated in 1970, had graduation ceremony on a Friday, got married on a Saturday, and entered into full-time ministry on Sunday.

Anthony: That’s efficiency!

Dan: That was over 51 years ago now. So, we’re 51 years in ministry with what is now Grace Communion International. I had the opportunity to be the associate pastor of the Boston church for a couple of years, started a church in Springfield, Massachusetts, became the lead pastor in the Concord, New Hampshire [and] Montpelier, Vermont churches, and was there for 10 years.

And during those 10 years, I started three churches in Maine: in Bangor, Augusta, and Portland. And then I was transferred to the Greensboro/Winston Salem, North Carolina churches for 7. And then I was in the Atlanta area for 7 years before being summoned into our headquarters, at that time in Pasadena, California, to become the superintendent of ministers, which I was, as you’ve stated, for about 20 years or so.

During that time, I had the opportunity to attend the Boston University School of Theology in the MDiv program there. I’ve also done postgraduate work at Azusa Pacific University. I have a master’s in theological studies from Emory University in Atlanta and a PhD in Religious Studies from Union Institute and University of Cincinnati.

So, what I’m doing today, I thought I was retired. But the local congregation here in Las Vegas, where my wife and I live, needed a pastor. They were without one. And they asked if I would come out of retirement and pastor the church, and I agreed to do and that’s been about two or three years now.

And so that keeps me very busy with the challenges of COVID, and pandemics, and such; it has been a challenging time.

Anthony: Yeah. We’re so glad that you have continued faithfully in ministry. We’re not surprised by that. And may you and your wife, Barbara, be blessed as you go through this time of retirement that sounds like it’s keeping you very busy.

Let’s get onto the 4 pericopes that we’re going to unpack together today. It’s going to be John 12:1-8 “Extravagant Worship,” that’s for the 5th Sunday of Lent April the 3^rd. Luke 19:28-40 “Blessed Is the King,” that’s on Palm Sunday, April the 10th. We’ll move to John 20:1-18 “The Resurrection,” that is on Easter Sunday, April the 17th, And finally, John 20:19-31, “My Lord and My God,” that’s for the 2^nd Sunday of Eastertide, April the 24th.

I’m going to read our first pericope, John 12:1-8. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for April the 3rd, which is the 5th Sunday of Lent.

¹ Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. ² Here a dinner was given in Jesus’ honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. ³ Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.

⁴ But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, ⁵ “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” ⁶ He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

⁷ “Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. ⁸ You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”

Dan, what do you consider to be the main thrust of this passage and how it ties into the Lenten season?

Dan: The main thrust of this passage is explicitly given in the passage itself. It’s the anointing of Jesus in preparation for his burial. John evidently wants his readers to see Mary of Bethany, seemingly unknowingly performing a prophetic action that foreshadows Jesus’ death.

It was common at that time to anoint a person’s head as the sign of honor and hospitality, and to wash (not anoint) a guest’s feet with water. However, one did not anoint the feet of a living person. It was customary to anoint the body of a corpse with spices prior to burial.

Now, one can only imagine what the dinner guests (other than Judas) may have thought of Mary’s actions, but John states clearly for his readers, the meaning of the anointing. And thus, invites his readers (including us today) to reflect back on its significance, especially at this time of the year, as we remember Jesus’ death and resurrection.

Anthony: It seems that Mary’s way of honoring Jesus was very extravagant. What do we have to learn, Dan, from her action?

Dan: The value of the perfume Mary used to anoint Jesus’ feet has been estimated to be a year’s salary. That’s a lot of money, and we’re not told how Mary came to have this expensive perfume. John simply wants us readers to understand Mary’s actions, and probably hopes his readers can make application in their own Christian lives.

Her actions remind me of a hymn. Maybe you’ve heard it. Give of Your Best to the Master written by Howard B. Grose, and hymn stanza 3 says:

Give of your best to the Master;
Naught else is worthy His love;
He gave Himself for your ransom,
Gave up His glory above.
Laid down His life without murmur,
You from sin’s ruin to save;
Give Him your heart’s adoration;
Give Him the best that you have.

And Mary, in front of a room full of dinner guests, humbly and adoringly, knelt at Jesus feet, poured very expensive perfume on his feet, and unabashedly let down her hair in front of everyone, which was just not the custom for women to do at that time, and used her hair to wipe the feet of Jesus. What can we learn from that? May we as Christians, humbly and adoringly kneel daily at Jesus’ feet. And whatever we may have, our lives and our treasure, let’s make sure we give of our best to the Master.

Anthony: In verse 8, I’m just curious, is Jesus being dismissive of the poor and their needs? How can we rightly understand what he’s communicating?

Dan: I think we need to understand that, as Jesus said, the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart. And the second is to love your neighbor.

The priority in our lives is to love God. And indeed, it’s only in loving God that we are empowered to love our neighbor who is created in God’s image. When we love and honor God, it will result in our loving our neighbors. The scripture says the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Now Mary had a unique opportunity to honor God. And so, she did. She did so with all our heart and all she had at her disposal. And as so doing, she set an example for all Christians who would follow and read her story.

Now look, if her perfume had been sold and the money given to the poor, it would not have solved the human problem of poverty. It would have remained as indeed it does to this very day. Now should Christians help the poor? Of course, as much as we can! But we’ve got to realize our human efforts are not going to make poverty go away. Only God – the return of Christ in glory – can accomplish that. So, we as Christians do what we can for the poor but recognize that only when (like Mary) all worship and adore God, can human poverty be ultimately eliminated.

Yes. We must help the poor, but the answer to poverty lies in all people coming to Christ and worshiping as Mary did. And only when that day comes, will there be no more poor.

Anthony: [I have] a follow up question, as I look at this text. Obviously, the theological question on any pericope is: who is God? Who is the God revealed in Jesus Christ? Any comments you’d like to share about the God that we see revealed in Jesus in this passage?

Dan: We’re coming up to the time of the Triumphal Entry, and we’re going to be talking about. We see Jesus as the king, as the ruler and our Lord and our God. And we’re going to cover all of that, I think, today in the pericopes that we have laid out.

But one thing I would like us to think about is Jesus is our best friend. Mary loved Jesus. Jesus loved Lazarus. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. He loved Martha. He loved his disciples. And he was one of the nicest guys! Let me put it this way. He was the nicest guy who’s ever lived, and what a joy it was to be around him and be with him.

And yes, we know he’s King; he’s Lord; he’s God Almighty, but he’s also our best friend. And the fellowship that we can have with him in the Spirit is priceless.

Anthony: Yeah, and it always strikes me how in that culture, how the people of that day, who would be considered outsider, felt like insiders with Jesus. Talking about this God, who you were drawn to, that you wanted to be with, that there was an experience of the embodiment of joy when you’re with him. It’s a powerful thing to look into the eyes of Jesus and draw more and more in love with the one who ultimately loves our soul.

Let’s move on to the next pericope, which is going to be Luke 19:28 – 40. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for April the 10th, which is Palm Sunday. Dan, would you read that for us please?

Dan:

²⁸ After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. ²⁹ As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, ³⁰ “Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. ³¹ If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you untying it?’ say, ‘The Lord needs it.’”

³² Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. ³³ As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, “Why are you untying the colt?”

³⁴ They replied, “The Lord needs it.”

³⁵ They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. ³⁶ As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road.

³⁷ When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:

³⁸ “Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!”

“Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”

³⁹ Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”

⁴⁰ “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”

Anthony: Dan, what’s the big deal about Palm Sunday? And what is significant about Jesus’s entry into Jerusalem as we’re thinking ahead about Holy Week?

Dan: In all four Gospels, the significance of Jesus entry into Jerusalem is his triumphal royal entry into the city, leading to his enthronement as King. Now for the Gospel writers, the lifting up of Jesus on the cross was the Ascension of the King to his throne. And in one sense, the first step in Jesus’ Ascension to the Father.

Anthony: If you preach this passage, Dan, (which you most likely will, and we’ll be listening) what’s going to be your main teaching emphasis?

Dan: In my over 51 years of ministry, I’ve preached on the triumphal entry many times and will continue to do it many times, but my teaching emphasis varies a bit, depending on which Gospel account I’m preaching from.

The triumphal entry is found in all four Gospels. And that indicates its importance to the story of Jesus. Now, if I’m preaching from John’s account, I note a lot of John’s use of biblical imagery to show Jesus as the Messiah, the prophesied King of Israel, the King of the Jews who was to come and bring in a new age of peace and freedom.

And the concepts of peace and freedom were very important to John’s readers who are probably enduring a great deal of persecution at the time they read his Gospel. John especially, though, draws on imagery from the Jewish feast of Sukkot or Feast of Tabernacles, as it’s sometimes called. And though this festival came in the fall of the year, John moves many of its symbols to the springtime story of Jesus’ Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem.

Now the Feast had become separated from its original agricultural roots and had come to be seen in the days of the Old Testament prophets as a celebration of the enthronement of the Messiah, the King, and the beginning of the Messianic Age. And thus, John uses the festival’s imagery to illustrate this is what’s happening with Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem.

But now if I’m preaching from Luke’s account (which is the Lection for this year), I know how that Luke omits most of the Jewish imagery John uses. Perhaps lest his Gentile readers get the mistaken impression that the focus of Jesus is on a nationalistic Jewish kingship. For Luke, Jesus’ enthronement on the cross begins the rule, (basileia, sometimes translated kingdom) the rule of God for all followers of Jesus, both Jew and Gentile, all people.

And I teach it this way as a story of contrast. For his final visit, Jesus enters Jerusalem as the people’s Messiah king and savior, but not in the way most would have expected here. Hear the contrast in this story. We have the Messianic King coming to save his people, riding on a white charger, a battle horse? No, on a donkey. He brings peace, not war against the Roman. He conquers hearts and minds, not nations. He’s not welcome with royal robes, but those of the common people.

His crown is one of thorns. His throne is a cross. His coronation is an execution. His victory is in death, but through his death and resurrection, King Jesus succeeds and in saving his people. And through his death, King Jesus triumphed over all the powers of sin, death, and evil. And through his death King Jesus wins the war. The battles and skirmishes obviously continue, but through his death, victory is assured.

The triumph and victory are ours through our King, our Lord Jesus Christ. And this event of the Triumphal Entry assures us that we can have great comfort and peace because no matter how “wrong side up” things may look in the world around us or in our own lives, we can know triumph has already come.

Eternal peace, eternal joy, and eternal life have been won and secured for us because of the triumph of our King Lord Jesus. So as the crowd said, “Bless it be the name of the Lord.”

Anthony: Yeah, it reminds me how Jesus is our Deliverer, and he is faithful to deliver us ultimately. But often that deliverance doesn’t look the way I anticipate it looking or the way that I think would be best for it to happen – as the people of the day thought as well.

It seems that the Pharisees are trying to shush the multitude of disciples celebrating Jesus. I’m just curious, in what ways do we today need to be on guard that we aren’t hushing those seeking to worship Jesus?

Dan: Let me first speak to the meaning of the passage, and then I’ll comment on your question.

In the Lucan text, the Pharisees ask Jesus to rebuke his disciples for declaring him as king. And as the kingship parable Luke places just prior to the Triumphal Entry states, the Pharisees were determined not to let Jesus rule over them and were determined to have him killed. They are also undoubtedly concerned that the public proclamation of Jesus as king, a Jew as a king, would draw the attention and ire of the Roman authorities.

But your question does give me an opportunity to talk about one of my pet peeves about Christian worship in some settings. As Paul tells us in Corinthians, our community worship should be in decency and order. That is why we must not be disruptive and cause offense and confusion in community worship. Also, we should respect the worship traditions of different Christian tribes.

Now some Christian worship traditions are highly liturgical with lots of pomp and circumstance and some focus more on preaching and teaching. And some, such as the Quakers, emphasize the spiritual discipline of silence. We should respect the varying Christian traditions and not judge, or (to use your word, Anthony) “hush” them because they may be different from our own.

Also, pet peeve! Worship leader, please don’t tell people how to worship! Again, with decency and order, people should be free to worship as is appropriate for them. For example, please don’t tell people to bow their heads in prayer. Some may want to lift their eyes to heaven. Invite people to join with you in prayer.

Don’t tell people to stand; invite people who are able and so desire to stand. Don’t tell people to remain standing; invite them as they are able, and so desire to remain standing. Some of us have physical challenges, especially those of us who are older. And we can’t stand as walk as we used to. So please don’t embarrass us because we need to sit down when you say remain standing.

So, the key is don’t command! Invite people to participate with the worship leader and the worship team in community worship. So, thank you for allowing me to share one of my pet peeves.

Anthony: You are welcome.

Let’s move on to our next pericope. This is going to be for Easter Sunday. The text is John 20:1 – 18. It is the Revised Common Lectionary lection reading for April the 17th.

¹Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb. ² So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” ³ Then Peter and the other disciple set out and went toward the tomb. ⁴ The two were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. ⁵ He bent down to look in and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but he did not go in. ⁶ Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen wrappings lying there, ⁷ and the cloth that had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen wrappings but rolled up in a place by itself. ⁸ Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; ⁹ for as yet they did not understand the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. ¹⁰ Then the disciples returned to their homes.

¹¹ But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb; ¹² and she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying, one at the head and the other at the feet. ¹³ They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” ¹⁴ When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus. ¹⁵ Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” ¹⁶ Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to him in Hebrew, “Rabbouni!” (which means Teacher). ¹⁷ Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” ¹⁸ Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”; and she told them that he had said these things to her.

Wow! So, Paul writes that if Christ hasn’t been raised, our preaching, Dan, is in vain. I just want to give you an opportunity to rift on the stunning reality of the resurrection of our Lord, which makes what we do not in vain.

Dan: Absolutely. You mentioned reality. And that’s a very important term in considering the resurrection of Jesus. As there are those who have suggested that while Jesus may have existed, his resurrection from the dead was imagined or just plain made up by his disciples. So, the question is, who is Jesus?

If Jesus is dead, then he was a young Jewish male who taught some good things but, so what? There’ve been a lot of good teachers down through history. But so what? We’re still born, live, and die and return to dust, that’s it.

But if Jesus is alive, if he were resurrected in a glorified body, then he is the Son of God. That’s who he is, fully human and fully God. And in him, all humanity has the opportunity to be resurrected in a glorified body as well. And physical death, decay and corruption is not the end of our existence.

Indeed, as John’s Gospel tells us, the one who became Jesus is the Creator, Maker of all things. In Jesus’ bodily resurrection, we have God’s pledge that along with the Creator in his human nature, the entire creation can and will be renewed. A new spiritual heaven and new spiritual earth populated by God, his angels, and glorified, spiritual, bodied humans. That is the hope of the resurrection.

Anthony: As I was rereading through this passage, I was struck by the phrase, “It was still dark,” in verse 1. And what came to my mind, it seems that new life often starts right there in the dark. Surprisingly enough, it’s a seed in the ground, a baby in the womb, or Jesus in the tomb.

And if that’s the case, what might we learn about the darkness we sometimes experience in our own lives?

Dan: Since we’re discussing a text in the Gospel of John, we should look at how John uses the imagery of dark and light. Oh! John is a master at the use of imagery and with layers and depth of meaning and understanding.  John begins his Gospel with, “In the beginning,” harkening back to the opening words of the book of Genesis and the creation story. In the Genesis creation story, darkness is prevalent, and then God introduces light!

Now in John’s Gospel, John introduces Jesus as the light that came into the world, which darkness could not overcome. And throughout his Gospel, John uses the imagery of light, day, and sight versus darkness, night, and blindness. Seeing and knowing Jesus is to see and know the light, to live in the day, to see clearly.

Not knowing Jesus is to be in darkness, in the night, and to be spiritually blind. Thus, when the physically bind came to know Jesus, they were healed, and they could see. Now we notice that Nicodemus comes to Jesus at night, a Pharisee who wanted to ask Jesus some questions. So, he comes at night, and he doesn’t understand Jesus’ teaching.

When Judas betrayed Jesus, he goes out at night. He does not understand who Jesus truly is. So, when John tells us that Mary Magdalene went out to Jesus tomb while it was still dark (and we noticed that all the other Gospels speak of an early morning arrival), John is telling his readers that Mary does not yet truly know who Jesus is.

She is still operating in the dark. But the darkness cannot overcome Jesus, the light. So indeed, Jesus comes forth from the darkness of death. And Mary eventually comes to know and understand who Jesus is.

And when Jesus comes in glory, John tells us this, the eyes of the blind will be open. And also, that every eye will see him. Blessed are the eyes of those who now have come out of darkness.

I think that’s a great lesson. Blessed are our eyes. We don’t realize how blessed we are that our eyes have been opened, that we’re not in the dark, that we’ve come out of darkness, and we can see and know who Jesus is. And we pray for the day when all will see and have that vision and not be in the dark. As the well-known hymn says, “Open my eyes that I may see.”

Anthony: Mary didn’t recognize the risen Lord Jesus, right in her presence. Is there anything we should make of that, in terms of a lesson for us?

Dan: I think we should note from the text and just to give Barry some benefit of the doubt, Mary had been crying and tears filled her eyes.

It also says that she turned around (whatever that means exactly.) But here’s the key. It was when she heard Jesus’ voice, she turned toward him and cried out, “Teacher!” Now on a practical level, Mary was not expecting to see a living Jesus. She was looking for a dead body, a naked, dead body that had been tortured, hung from a cross, pierced in the side by a spear and was all bloody.

What she glimpsed was a man who looked like a gardener. And indeed, he was the gardener, having made the garden of Eden, but he looked like a gardener. So, he looked pretty fit, and he was wearing clothes, not like someone who had been crucified and had laid in a tomb for three days. But I think John wants his readers to understand something a bit more theological.

Mary recognized Jesus when he spoke to her. It is truly in the spoken words of Jesus that one has the means to recognize his presence. Christians today do not see the risen Lord as Mary did, but we recognize his presence with us just as she did. We have his spoken word in the scriptures and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ in our lives.

And we have his presence in the elements of communion. We recognize him in the breaking of bread. We must understand from reading this and thinking about it, that Jesus is always with us, even when we don’t see him.

There’s the old saying that you don’t see what you’re not looking for. We need to look for Jesus and we need to see him in our lives. And we must realize that he is always with us. Look for him and expect to see him because he’s there.

Anthony: Yeah. What is Jesus ultimately communicating to Mary when he tells her not to hold on to him (I’m sure she wanted to), but not to hold onto him because he had not yet ascended to the Father?

Dan: When Mary first saw the risen Jesus, she called out to him, “Dear Rabbi,” or special teacher. She did not yet see or understand him as Lord or God. And perhaps it appeared to her that she thought she could now continue following and being with Jesus just the way she had all during his ministry. So, everything’s back to the way it was. Everything’s the same. This is good.

But Jesus lets Mary know, things have changed. The next step in God’s plan of salvation is Jesus going to the Father in heaven. Wow! And when he returns to his disciples, he’s going to establish them in a new relationship with him and with the Father, by giving them the Holy Spirit to be with them and in them. It’s a new way to carry on his ministry. And obviously, it’s very Trinitarian.

We can note that after Jesus explains what he’s about to do, Mary then goes back to the disciples and tells them she has seen the Lord. At that point, she has a new understanding of who Jesus is.

Anthony: I wonder in the fullness of the kingdom if Peter’s going to try to set things right by having a sprint race with John. What do you think?

John seems to make the point that he arrived first and he’s the swifter of the two, but I say we should have a match race in heaven.

Dan: John mentions it twice. Now he doesn’t even use his name. He says that disciple or whoever. So, he tries to remain humbly anonymous, but it is interesting that two times he wants every one of his readers to know.

And you can imagine let’s say, John as an older man, at the time he’s writing this Gospel, wants his readers to remember that you know that was pretty fast!

Anthony: The glory days.

Dan: Yeah, back in the glory days. And I could beat Peter, I’m telling you. So yeah, a little bit of interesting humor there from the apostles.

Anthony: Then let’s move on to our final pericope of the month. It’s for the second Sunday of the Easter season. It’s John 20:19 – 31. It is the revised common lyric common lectionary passage for April the 24th.

Please read it for us

Dan:

¹⁹ On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” ²⁰ After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

²¹ Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” ²² And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. ²³ If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

²⁴ Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. ²⁵ So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

²⁶ A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” ²⁷ Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

²⁸ Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

²⁹ Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

³⁰ Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. ³¹ But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Anthony: “As the Father has sent me, I send you.” What is Jesus revealing about the Father and also about us as disciples of our Lord Jesus?

Dan: Jesus said, as the Father sent me, I’m sending you and then he breathed on them. And here we find that Jesus is sending out his disciples. He’s telling them that they’re going out with the same authority and the same mission that he’s had from his Father. We understand that the mission of Jesus, the mission of the church is from the Father through Jesus and in the Holy Spirit.

It is a Trinitarian mission to save humanity and indeed to save all of creation. So, Jesus’ followers are to continue in his ministry on the earth, even after he left. After he went back to heaven, he sent the Holy Spirit and in the Holy Spirit, all of his followers from that day forward will be able to work with him in his ministry.

And the followers of Jesus will have the power of the Spirit to continue the Father’s mission through Jesus and in the Holy Spirit. So, his followers participate in the heart, the goal, the mission, the purpose of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

Anthony: Yeah. That’s encouraging to know that the mission is God’s mission.

It’s the Fathers in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. It’s not my mission. It’s not the church’s mission. It’s God’s mission. And so, whenever we engage our neighbor, love our neighbor, work in our community, we know that God is at work already in front of us, at work.

Help us to theologically understand verse 23 about if you forgive, it is forgiven, if you retain, it’s retained. Is Jesus really saying sins will be retained if the disciples don’t forgive them?

Dan: This particular verse over the years has been subject to many different interpretations. And indeed, it is a challenging verse to look into. The Roman Catholic church has used this as a proof of needing to go to a priest and receiving forgiveness for your sins, from the priest and the act of confession.

Protestants have looked at it in several different ways, including the communal view, where it is the community of faith, the church, which either lets people into the church, allows them to be baptized, or denies them admission to the church, or something along that view. But let me give you an analogy that at least works for me, and I hope it may work for others who are listening.

Let’s say a man robs a convenience store and steals all the money, makes a getaway. But from that day forward, he lives with a feeling of guilt. He knows he’s done wrong. And so, for the next 20 years, every time he sees a police car, every time he hears a knock at the door, he wonders, is this it? Have they finally caught up with me? Will I be going to prison now?

He can’t sleep at night, lives in guilt for 20 years. And then suddenly one day there’s a knock on his door and of all things, it’s the sheriff. So, he puts out his hands and says, “All right. Put the handcuffs on me. I know you’ve been looking for me. I knew my day would come. Take me away to prison.”

The sheriff looks at him and says, “No, you’re not guilty. Let me tell you what happened. Even to the very moment that you robbed that convenience store, the governor simultaneously, and even previously, pardoned you and declared you not guilty. We’ve been looking for you for 20 years to tell you that you’re a free man.”

Now, the person who robbed the store would probably say, “What took you so long to find me and tell me that? I’ve lived 20 years of my life under guilt, and in fear. I’ve been cursed, and you tell me I’m not even guilty of the crime.”

You know to be free, to be declared not guilty and to [not] know it, is to continue subjectively to live with a feeling of guilt, not knowing that you’re really free. How many people do not know that God, Jesus Christ has indeed forgiven them of their sins?

And because of their not knowing they are living a life of condemnation, a life of guilt, a life where they fear what the final judgment may be. Wouldn’t it be nice if someone would find those people, and tell them that they’ve been declared not guilty, and that in Jesus Christ, they are free of their sins?

As the followers of Jesus today, as his disciples, we need to let people know that in Jesus, their sins have been forgiven. Now, if you let someone know that their sins are forgiven, they can experience that forgiveness. If you don’t let someone know that their sins are forgiven, they do not experience that forgiveness. And they feel as though their sins have been retained, even though they have not. So, the responsibility, I think, is on the followers of Jesus to let people know Jesus has forgiven you of your sins. You are free.

Anthony: Jesus repeatedly said, “Peace be with.” What a beautiful greeting, not only for his friends that heard it, but also for us! And if that’s the case, how so?

Dan: In Aramaic, which was the primary dialect of Jesus and his disciples, the word for peace is shlomo alach. In the Hebrew Old Testament, the word is shalom.

And it has a broad range of meanings. It’s its meanings included primarily health, good life, and prosperity. But it also included notions of security, completeness, blessing, and salvation, and all Shalom was viewed as coming from God.

Now I’m a big Star Trek fan, and I hope you or maybe some of the listeners are, and you can appreciate what came to be known as the Vulcan salute. Leonard Nimoy portrayed Mr. Spock in the series. And Leonard Nimoy was Jewish; he grew up in the synagogue. And they were looking for a way that Vulcans might greet one another. And Mr. Nimoy reflected back on his time as a boy in synagogue, and he remembered the priestly blessings.

The priests would bless the people, the rabbis would bless the people by forming the [Hebrew] letter shin, which was the beginning letter of one of the names of God. And so, what he did was he separated the two hands into one hand: the thumb extended, the ring finger and the middle finger together and the little finger and the other finger together in what came to be known as the Vulcan salute. But it came right out of the synagogue as a blessing from God.

And the words that Spock would recite would be “Live long and prosper.” And the response was “Peace and long life.” And those are exactly the meanings of Shalom. I have to admit that when I pictured Jesus in this scene saying, “Peace to you,” I keep seeing him give them the Vulcan salute. At least that works for me.

Now in the Greek New Testament, the Hebrew meanings carried over, but some Christian nuances came to be understood. And the word peace is used in three basic ways in the New Testament. One is the opposite of war or strife. And two, it’s used to describe restored, happy, personal relationships. And three, it’s use for peace of mind, especially in a contrast to a troubled and fearful heart or outlook on life.

Now in our passage, Jesus appears to use the term mostly as number three, but not excluding the other two. The peace Jesus passed onto his disciples and to us today is the peace of God. The peace of mind that comes from knowing and trusting Jesus, the peace that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, the peace that erases a troubled and fearful heart.

The peace that comes from realizing Jesus has entered the building. (A little play there on “Elvis has left the building.”) But literally in the story of Jesus, [he] did enter the building. In our lives, Jesus has entered the building. He is always in our lives.

So, the New Testament tells us 365 times, (and mostly from the mouth of Jesus) fear not. Peace. Have peace in Jesus. He is here. He is with us. He’s in our lives. Trust him. You have hope in him. You can have confidence in him. Fear, not. Shalom, live long and prosper!

Anthony: While you were talking, our podcast producer, Reuel, typed in the chat area that he’s a fan of Star Trek. But I got to tell you, you lost me. I don’t know that I’ve seen a single episode, but I’m with you in that, what a beautiful greeting of shalom from our Lord!

Finally, “My Lord and my God.” [verse 28] What a stunning declaration from Thomas! Tell us more, Dan.

Dan: In the verses that we read, Jesus said to Thomas, put your finger here and see my hands, reach out your hand, and put it into my side, stop doubting and believe. And so, Thomas has been known, down to this day, as Doubting Thomas. And anytime someone doesn’t have a hope or belief or they’re being negative, people say you’re a Doubting Thomas.

So, Jesus said to Thomas, stop doubting and believe. Now here, Jesus allows Thomas to make a scientific experiment. You know, stop doubting, believe, except God’s reality. It’s a far greater reality than the one you know as a human. I’m the same Jesus you knew, fully human, but also fully God, come back from the dead. And I still bear the scars in my body.

And some ask were the scars not healed? Why did Jesus still manifest these scars? One reason is so that Thomas and the others would know he was Jesus. He was the same human that they had known for so many years. He’s not some different being, he’s not some ghost, some spirit thing, something of their imagination.

He is really, and truly Jesus, fully human and fully God standing right there before them standing right before Thomas.

So, we note what Thomas says in his reply in verse 27.

 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

²⁸ Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Now, I don’t think Thomas should be known as Doubting Thomas. In fact, in this verse, he’s probably made one of the most important and powerful statements in the New Testament about the divinity of Jesus Christ. He’s called him my Lord and the Greek word for the Lord, Kyrios, is the same word that’s used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament for the Hebrew word Yahweh. So what Thomas is saying here, in a sense, is Yahweh, my Lord, my God.

Now I feel for so-called Doubting Thomas. And on behalf of all realists everywhere, I’d like to suggest we now call him Believing Thomas, because Thomas accepted God’s reality as the most real reality of all.

And Thomas becomes a faith-filled believer.

²⁹ Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Thomas was blessed. He saw, he believed, and he gave a profound announcement of faith.

But it makes me think, what about us today? What about you and me? We’ve not seen Jesus, literally, physically with our own eyes. We’ve not been able to perform a scientific experiment of touching scars. And yet we believe. Jesus said blessed are those who believe without seeing. We do know that Jesus is alive. We experience them in the spirit.

And as he becomes to us – over time, communing with him – our best friend. He was a friend of Thomas and the other disciples. He was close to Thomas, but he’s close to us too. He is our best friend, as he was Thomas and the other disciples. And he’s also our Lord and our God. But as I said earlier, we worship him as our Lord and our God, as Thomas did [with] a startling claim in the New Testament to Jesus’ divinity as fully human and fully God. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that he’s not only our Lord and our God, he is also our friend. Again, as one of the famous hymns says, “What a friend we have in Jesus.”

Anthony: Dan, thanks for being my friend and be my guest here today. I so appreciate the commentary you provided as I’m sure our pastors and teachers will as well. It’s our ongoing rhythm at the podcast to have our guests pray a blessing over the pastors, preachers, teachers, Bible students.

So, would you say we’re to prayer for our listeners?

Dan: Our Lord and our God, we come before you Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus to ask your blessing on your disciples today, especially those who minister in the word. May we speak your word rightly, truthfully, powerfully, and boldly.

May we be empowered and abled, strengthened by the Holy Spirit. And may those who hear the words we speak also be empowered by the Spirit to understand, and to apply these words in their lives. We thank you, God.

Father, we know it is your mission through Jesus and in the Spirit. And because it is your mission, it cannot fail. Sometimes we wonder if we’re adequate preachers or, if we’re doing a good job, or if we’re having any effect at all, or if our lives make any difference. And yet if we’re participating in the ongoing mission of Jesus from the Father in the Spirit, we cannot fail.

We can only succeed. And as Jesus said, numerous times in the passage we just read, let his peace be unto us. And let us know and have that confidence, that trust and that faith, that though we are human, we cannot fail for we are on mission with the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Thank you for allowing us to participate.

Thank you for the success that you give. Thank you for allowing us to be a part of it. Bless us, please. For we love you, Lord. And we want to serve you and minister to your people. We ask your blessing as well as give thanks, in Jesus’ name. Amen

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Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL.  Until then, peace be with you!

Love Avenue: Relational Evangelism w/ Brenda Asare Akoto

Welcome to the GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience. Here are your hosts, Cara Garrity and Sarah Rossi.

Cara:  Hello friends, and welcome to another episode of GC Podcast. Sarah, how are you doing today?

Sarah: I’m doing really well. How are you doing Cara?

Cara: Oh, I am doing great. This month is a great month. It’s my birthday month. So how could you be any better?

Sarah: Oh, I almost forgot about that. Whoops.

Cara: Ah, wow. What a good friend.

Sarah: I’m the best friend.

Cara: Oh wow. We all fumble sometimes in friendship, but now you know, and so now you can celebrate me.

Sarah: Yeah!

Cara: Speaking of friendship, today’s episode focuses on redefining evangelism through relationship. Sarah in your perspective, why might that be important?

Sarah: Well, I really think that relationships are the only way to do evangelism. And there is a quote that actually has been incorrectly, attribute it to Francis of Assisi, but I still think it’s great and still really like it.

And it says, “Preach the gospel at all times; use words only when necessary.” And so, this suggests that it doesn’t matter what we say, if we don’t “walk the walk,” no one will care about our “talk.” And they will probably also not want to keep walking with us. But I also think it’s important to redefine what we mean by relationship.

Relationship can be hosting game nights or going out to coffee to get to know each other, but it can also be so much more than that. If someone you’re friends with lets you know that their family is financially struggling, relationship means that you help them, no strings attached. And if someone has a different life experience than you, relationship means knowing how to genuinely listen to them, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

And relationship means you asking the other person, how can I support you, instead of assuming that what they need. There is a lot of unlearning that needs to be done regarding relationships, and we really need this unlearning and relearning to be able to form genuine relationships.

Cara: That’s a good word about redefining, unlearning, and relearning what relationships can look like. Thank you, Sarah.

Our podcast guest today, Brenda Asare Akoto, has some wonderful insights to share with us as well. Let’s listen to her interview.

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Hello, friends and welcome to the latest episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches. I’m your host, Cara Garrity.

Today I am blessed to interview Brenda Asare Akoto. Brenda, along with her husband, Leslie, is a camp director and national youth pastor of Ghana. They also run a travel and tour company in Ghana and have three wonderful children.

Brenda, thank you for spending your time with us today. We’ll be exploring what it looks like to approach evangelism through a relational perspective.

Before we get started, would you share with us something that inspires you to worship?

Brenda: Thank you so much, Cara, for having me on. This is exciting to be talking to you all the way from Ghana. So, hello everyone, for everyone that’s listening. What was the question again? Sorry.

Cara: Yes. Share with our listeners something that inspires you to worship.

Brenda: I think, well not, I think. The only thing that inspires me to worship God is my life. I mean, I know definitely that my life is not mine; it’s in his hands. His love for me is so great that he died for me and gave me this beautiful life that I’m now living in him. So, obviously the inspiration comes from him, the life that he’s given me, the newness of the new life that he’s making me to live so I can walk in him. I can show the world who he is, I can talk about him. I can live him when I make mistakes. I know I have a father who I can run to. It’s just so soothing. So that is my inspiration. That’s what keeps me going every day, knowing fully well that no matter what I go through, my life is in his hands.

He’s in control of who I am and what I am. And as long as I stay with him, I can never go wrong because his faith is always faithful. Even if I am unfaithful, he will always be faithful. His love is eternal. Even if, sometimes I fall out of love due to my own earthly challenges, his love is always there because he is love.

He can be nothing else, but love. So my life, he in me, inspires me to go on every day to just worship him and talk about him to as many people as I can.

Cara: Amen. Well, thank you for sharing that with us. It’s a great way to get us started. And so, I’d love to jump on in; I think we’ll have a rich conversation discussing evangelism from a relational perspective.

So, can you just share with us what relational evangelism means to you and what makes relationships so important to sharing the good news because of Jesus?

Brenda: If you take it off from your last question about what inspires me, right from the beginning of creation, you could see that God really wants to have a relationship with man.

And he did that by creating us. And even though we fell away, he still found a way to redeem us back to him by sending our Lord Jesus Christ to come die for us. So, our relationship with God is so important! It is really important. It’s something that he cherished so much that he sent his son to die for us.

And so, for me, sharing, talking to people about him or trying to let the world know about him, starts from having a relationship with them. Because the same way, if we take the example from Jesus Christ, he didn’t just come and say, know God.

He came and he wanted to have a relationship with the kids. He wanted to have a relationship with those who are lost. He wanted to have a relationship with his disciples. He would come to you, talk to you at your level, what you know, where you’re from, and then he will build you up from there.

That’s how important relationship is to our Lord Jesus Christ and that was the example he gave to us. And so, for me as well, when you’re doing evangelism, that is in fact, I think that’s the foundation. Because if you don’t have a relationship with a person you’re evangelizing to, what happens is the person either doesn’t take you serious or doesn’t trust you, or there are just issues, so it’s extremely important to try and build an intentional relationship with whoever it is you want to go and evangelize to. And that would usually form a good platform to start off. And that’s why it’s so important, that’s why relationships are so important.

It’s good to make that conscious effort to have an intentional relationship with whoever you’re talking to, because that builds trust, that builds them being able to want to open up to talk to you. And if you don’t know what the issues are, how can you be guided by the Holy Spirit, of course, to be able to lead them in the right way to Christ.

So, I think it’s extremely important to build on a relationship when you’re talking about evangelism.

Cara: Amen. And I love what you say about it being foundational and that God so values his relationship to us. Right? And that’s part of the good news is that he wants to be in relationship to us. And so of course, would that not be part of the context in which we bring that good news? Oh, amen, amen.

Brenda: It’s beautiful when we get to a place where – there’s no other place where you can find someone who is there for you 24/7, who doesn’t care about your past, doesn’t care about who you are, where you’ve been, what you’ve done, just come as I am, come as you are. And he’s ready. His arms are always open.

If you look at the story of the prodigal son and him going away and the father is there waiting. Because it means he was waiting for that relationship with his son. He yearned for that relationship. So, all those times when the son was gone, when he was coming back, his father was waiting and ran to him, even before he got to the door.

That’s to show the extent of the love and the relational relationship that God wants to have with us. It is really an intentional relationship. Like I said before, for him to send his son to come and die for us, when we understand that (especially when we know that he’s the king of Kings, I mean, all he needs to do is speak and things come into being), it’s a beautiful thing to have a father like that.

Cara: Yes. Amen. And to build those kinds of intentional relationships with one another is a reflection of him. As you said, Jesus could have just shouted to us the good news, but instead he dwelt among us. He came to be with his people, and so, that’s a way that we get to reflect and participate in his life. So, I thank you. I love thinking about our relationships with one another being grounded in his desire for a relationship with us.

I do think that one of the ways that the evangelism that I’ve experienced can kind of go awry sometimes is by creating this kind of “us versus them” mentality. How can relational evangelism kind of break down the walls of “us versus them?” Those of us who are Christians and those of us who aren’t, or maybe those who get it and those who [don’t]. How can relational evangelism kind of break down those dividing walls?

Brenda: The Bible says in Romans 3:23, that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. He didn’t say, for some have sinned. He said, all, every single one of us. And our life, it’s not ours anymore. The day we decide to let go of the world and now go into a relationship with Christ by dying and getting baptized, he says, we lay down our lives even as we die during baptism.

So, if we don’t learn to die, not just – yes, we do it during baptism as a symbol, as a symbol of us dying to the flesh and waking up into the spirit – but if we don’t learn to die, even in our attitudes. When I talk to some of my youth, I say, our flesh, we’re too alive. We are too alive. We need to die. Because the truth is, if we don’t die, what we will see is we’ll think we are more superior; we will think we’re better. We’ll think, oh, we have so much. We’re so blessed, and the others are not. And if you take that attitude, like you said, to evangelism, the people can feel it. They can feel it. Sometimes you don’t even have to say it. It doesn’t have to be words. It could just be in your actions.

It could be the way you look. It could be the way you express yourself. And so if we, as Christians, don’t learn to actually die to the flesh, die to the things of pride, thinking oh, it’s our intellect, it’s what we are, it’s where we are, those are the things that make us who we are and not understand the true meaning of grace.

Understanding that even the fact that we can all breathe air is by grace. The fact that we can even wake up in the morning and see, is by grace. People had plans for today, the 11th of November. They had plans for today, but they woke up today and either they’re gone or they’re sick or they’re in hospital, or they’re knocked down or something happened.

So, the fact that we are alive today is not because of our intellect or education or things we know. It is just his grace, his mercy is upon our lives. And so, if we have that attitude, the attitude of knowing that our life is through him, by him, and for him, then we will not have that mentality of “you versus us.”

And so that wouldn’t come across in my evangelism, but I think one of the ways that we can sort of break down that wall, like I said, it’s understanding that we are not of our own, the things we achieve is not due to our own capacity.

Let me give you an example.

We do evangelism in my local church and most of the times we go (where we go for evangelism) about two or three months regularly. We do it sometimes on Saturdays. About two months ago, we went for evangelism and just as we were leaving (we went with some friends of ours) and just as we’re leaving the church grounds (we have like five or six churches just on our street corner alone) and so one of the friends who came with us, through one fellowship, came and said, “Oh, you have so many churches here. You shouldn’t have any issues here.” And I just said, “Oh, I wish that was the case.” And we just turned a corner on the church and just behind us was a group of young boys and children who were living in slums and dilapidated places.

And there were in my group of four, there were five. I just thought, let’s split ourselves. So we split and I handled one young man named Kelly, and I was asking him what he’s doing, where he is. At a point, I said, can we sit down? We sat somewhere and we just talked and I wasn’t talking to him about, “Oh, you’re a sinner. The job you’re doing is wrong. You have dreads, having dreads is wrong. You have tattoos.”

I wasn’t talking to him about those things. It was just, tell me about yourself. Tell me about your family. Tell me about your life. Tell me about who you are. Tell me why you’re here. You’re 21. You’re living in Islam. Your parents are not even in this country. Why are you here?

So, it was more of, let me know you, and I was also opening up. I was also telling him who I am. Apparently, we’re from the same country as well. And we got to talking. So, we first clicked on that level. The level of, okay, she wants to know me; I want to know her.

And then we moved on to the good news and which is all we should really share where we go for evangelism. It’s not “you’re a sinner message” we’re sharing when you go for evangelism. It is the good news about Christ, who he is, what he came to do, how he saved us, what he did, how much he loves us.

A lot of times you find people who are lost, who are in such situations, are really just yearning for love. They’re just yearning for someone to care about them. They just yearning for someone to be intentional about how they treat them, how they walk with them. So anyway, long story short, we talked for a while. We prayed at the end of the evangelism, and then he promised that he was going to come to church the next day. And I took his number. Now, this is where it gets interesting. I just told him the name of the church. I didn’t say Grace Communion. I think I said Grace Communion, GCI. That’s what I said. And then the next day, when we went to church, the phone number where he wrote the phone number, I gave it to one of the other girls and she hadn’t come to church. And I was like, oh shoot. I was supposed to call this boy so he could come to church.

Midway through the service, I was doing announcement and this young man walks into church. This is someone who hasn’t been to church for – what he said, he hadn’t been to church for years and he’s just 21. And I said, “How did you find, I didn’t even…?”

He said, well, after we spoke, he couldn’t sleep. And he said, okay, he remembers, I said GCI. And then he just kept on asking, where’s the new church that just came in, where is the new church just came in. And that was how he came to church. And now he comes to church with us.

So, it’s when we make them feel loved. We make them feel at home. We recognize that we are all saved by grace. We don’t accuse them. Instead, we preach the good news. What happens is they feel like, yes, this person really cares. And that’s what we feel with Christ. We feel that Christ genuinely loves us. Love is not – yes, it’s a feeling but it’s more than action. The Bible says that for God so loved the world that he gave. Gave, given is an action word.

He did something because he loved us. And so that’s how it should be with us as well. So we should be intentional about giving love to these people and not trying to condemn, or create, like you said, the “we versus them” mentality. Okay, I think I’m going to stop now.

Cara: No, that’s wonderful. Thank you for sharing that story and example, because I think that it brings to life for us that it is about relationship. It’s about sharing life with people the way that Jesus shared life with people. It’s not just about going in trying to convince people of something but coming alongside and experiencing the love of Christ with people.  And that’s a beautiful thing. It’s a beautiful thing. Thank you.

And, as you shared that, I think about in the Love Avenue (the ministries of the Love Avenue, making friends, building those relationships), it is one of the key practices of the Love Avenue. So, to you, Brenda, what are some of the things that you believe characterize deep Christ-centered friendship?

Brenda: For me, one of the things that really bring Christ to life, especially what we’re talking about in the area of having Christ-centered friendship, the first thing is accepting everyone as they are. Accepting people’s flaws and then helping them, not commanding them, not dictating to them, letting them know, first of all, that we care. Like I said before, Christ cares and we know it. We feel it, we see it, we experience his care. We experience his love. So, for us to have that Christ-centered friendships, we need to accept people. Christ accepted everyone, everyone to the point, even to tax collectors, to prostitutes, he accepted them.

And he said, I have come for the lost. Not for those who think of them highly of themselves. So, I think for us to have that Christ-centered friendship is for us to actually look at how Christ first loved us, how he first showed us how to love. So, accepting everyone, let’s build trusting friendships because that’s really important.

We trust God, no matter what we’re going through. We know God loves us. So, we trust him. And that’s one thing we can pass on to whoever we’re dealing with, be it in our schools, in our communities, in our offices. Let people trust our friendship, let them trust our words. Let them trust our integrity. Let them trust our humility.

Let them trust our servant-leadership attitude. Once trust is established in a relationship, what happens is people say, “Oh, you know what, Cara? Oh, I know she wouldn’t do that.”   That way you’re building Christ-centered relationships.

And I think another thing that happens is obviously we’re all human, so we’re bound to make mistakes. Just like we make mistakes before God. If you look at the Lord’s Prayer, he says, forgive us, our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. So, everyone, we all make mistakes. Even though we’re living with a righteousness, conscious attitude, not a sinner conscious attitude, we still know we make mistakes.

Well, thank God for the righteousness of Christ. And so, when other people make mistakes like that, we need to correct them in love. We shouldn’t correct them with, like we said before a “we versus them” mentality, we should encourage them, not, “Oh, you’re so bad. You’ve gone wrong. This is way too much.”

Sometimes we think sin has degrees. We have the black sins and the white sins, or the white lies, the black lies. Before God, sin is sin. And so just as we sometimes fall short, same way other people will fall short. So, we need to correct everyone in love. We shouldn’t be judgmental, not be the ones to cast the first finger. Just like Christ said, he who has no sin should be the one to cast the first stone. So, we’ve all sinned.

And then of course we should listen. Listening, I’ve found (especially in our ministry, the youth ministry) is one way that I found that’s been able to help us to be able to work with the youth. Sometimes the kind of stories our youths tell us, sometimes they haven’t even told their closest family and their closest friends. But because they know they have a listening ear and an ear they can trust, you find sometimes they literally tell you their life stories, and we’re able to work with them.

So, for me, I think just exhibiting the fruits of the spirit, exhibiting those things (the love, the patience, the long suffering, all those things), those are the things that will really make Christ come alive, in any relationship or any friendship that you have that needs to be Christ-centered.

So, so I think for me, those will be the things, off the top of my head, what would make people have Christ-centered, meaningful friendships, friendships that lasts beyond emotions and situations and circumstances, friendship that lasts.

Yes, this person is indeed my sister. I mean, I should be able to say if I’m with you, Cara, in my Christian walk, I should be able to say, “You know what? Cara is my sister.” And it’s not about whether I am happy or sad, but I know she’s my sister because she’s proven it. We’ve experienced a relationship that goes beyond what the world calls friendship. So, I think those are the things that would for me, would relate to having deep Christ-centered friendships.

Cara: Yeah, that’s good. These kinds of friendships that are built around Christlikeness and ways that that honor who he is. And even in the way that you described that, Brenda, it sounds like to me that these are the kinds of friendships that can be built with those who don’t follow Christ already. Which I think is important to note (especially as we talk about relational evangelism) that Christ-centered friendships can be built, as you’ve mentioned, with those in your community, in your neighborhood. It’s not restricted to those maybe who are already part of the gathering church community.

We can honor Christ with our relationships wherever we build relationships. And I think that that is a beautiful thing, in the way that you described, that I think can free us to think about: how do we honor Christ in all of our friendships, not just with those who are already Christ followers as well?

Brenda: Yeah, actually, there’s a saying (I don’t know, I’m not sure where this was said), where they say, “You might be the only Bible that someone’s read.” And that is because you are not walking of your own. You’re walking as a child of God, as an ambassador of Christ.

And so sometimes you get to a place where no one knows you, but your attitude to be able to tell people that, that is a child of God. And so, you “being the Bible that somebody reads” means that the person has, maybe someone has said it, or maybe he’s jumped on a Bible somewhere. He’s heard it somewhere. And he sees that living in you, even with the way you talk, your walk, your attitude.

So, it’s not just for those of us in the church, it’s also for those who are actually out. Actually, I think it’s even more important for those who are outside the church. Because if we remember in the book of Acts, the first time the disciples were ever called Christians was because they were acting like Christ and that’s how it should be with us as well.

It should be with us that when we go out, our Christ-ness (I don’t know if there’s a word like that) but that we’re Christ-centered should be so evident. The Bible says our lives should so shine that the world will know. So that’s how it should be for us. So, it’s not just, like you’re talking about, inclusive evangelism for people who are not in the church, our attitude should be the only Bible, the first Bible that someone has read. And that’s what they should see while we go out for Christ.

Cara: Yes, I like that. That’s good.

Well, speaking of that (this is in a similar spirit), when we see the person of Jesus, in Jesus, God does come to live among humans as one of us, right? So, there is something incredible that we learn from Jesus about living among the people and not going into the community just only on, quick, maybe one-off excursions just to get people to come to church. What can it look like for the church to truly live among the people as Jesus did, to build these meaningful relationships, to have a steady presence in the congregation’s neighborhood?

What does that look like?

Brenda: What does it look like? I think it will look glorious!

But you know what? Until the church – until we learn to start (I’m trying to think of the best way to put it) until the church learns that we are part of the people. So, the Bible tells us that we are in the world, but not of the world. We are in the world. We are here at this moment. It’s God’s will that we are alive 11th, November 2021.

It is his will that we are here, and there is a purpose. There’s a mission. There’s a reason why we are alive today. And if we look at the story of Jesus, his whole purpose was the kingdom of God is here. The kingdom of God is coming. And the kingdom of God is like this. The kingdom of God is like that. The kingdom…everything he was doing was just focusing on bringing the kingdom of heaven to earth. And that is exactly what ours should be as well.

So, until the church begins to learn that we are part of this world, we are not of this world, because – I usually give an analogy. Say for example, (I’m in Ghana) the President says, “Okay Brenda, go be an ambassador of Ghana in Australia,” for example.

When I get to Australia, I am no longer Brenda. I am walking in the capacity of the President of Ghana. And so, what that means is whatever I do should represent Ghana. Even if I am in Australia, whatever I do, I should represent Ghana. I should breathe Ghana. I should eat Ghana. I should talk about Ghana. I should, everything I do should be about Ghana.

And that’s exactly the same thing with us. So we are in the world, but we are not of this world. And so, it’s extremely important for churches to begin to go out and try to find activities, try to initiate activities that will be an inclusive activity that involves the community they’re around.

I remember when pastor Kalengule Kaoma – there’s one saying, he said that I heard, and I’ve never forgotten it. And he said, “If your church, if they were to take your church out of that community, would the community miss you?”

And that statement has stuck with me since I heard it. Will the community miss us if they take us out of that community? Will my office miss me if I am taken out of my office? Will my business, the people I work with, would they miss me? Would I have represented something? Would I have done something? Would I have shown something if I was to be taken out of that community?

And so that’s how it should be. Until we begin to initiate activities that will bring the community around us to be able to experience the love of Christ, it still will not have that glorious look that we’re looking for. We will not have that look that we’re saying, “No, you know what? God is here,” because if we have to be able to, like I said, initiate those activities so that they can now be part of us so they can understand who Christ is.

If we don’t go to them, who is going to preach the gospel? If we keep secluding ourselves or taking away ourselves from the community, who is going to let them know about the word of God? I mean, if the apostles, if they didn’t move from where they were, the Gentiles, nobody would know about [the gospel.] If they didn’t, if they were not ready to go out and talk about Christ, we wouldn’t have the gospel today.

And so, our generation needs to learn to look for ways to get involved. I mean, there are so many activities that the neighborhoods come up with. Let’s get involved! Let’s get involved and be the difference. Let’s show them what the difference looks like, and not stay in our corner and expect the community to change, while we are in our corner and they’re in their corner. No, it doesn’t work that way.

So, we need to initiate. We need to initiate activities. I know one of our local churches here in our Ashongman branch, what they do is, the children (this is actually done by the children, as in the Y.E.S. ministry) what they do is they go out and invite other children around the community and they are constant with it. So, they do this constantly. And as they do that, because they now have – you know how children are! They talk to other people, other children, and then the children come to church. They play with them. They have games, they talk with them, they teach them about Christ. The children go home.

By the next week, these children leave their parents and they come to church. And so, if you come to the Ashongman congregation now, we have a children’s ministry that’s flourishing, flourishing with children whose parents are not even in the church, because the children of Ashongman branch actually went out. And it wasn’t a one-off thing; it was a constant thing they kept on doing.

And now we have a vibrant children’s ministry. And we pray that even as those children are being taught the good news of our Christ, when they go home, they would make a difference in their home, that their parents will want to find out: why is my child so much better? What is it about my child that is making him, now a lot better than how he was or how she was? Why? Because she’s experienced the love of Christ.

So, for me, the church, we need to learn to go out more, we need to go out more and create situations where we can just invite people of the community. I mean, Christmas is coming! There’s so much we can do. We can do singalongs at our community. We can do whatever, just something constant that we’re constantly in their face with love. And we can therefore show the love of Christ to the community.

Cara: Yes. And I love what you said about Jesus’ ministry. His earthly ministry was “the kingdom is at hand, and the kingdom is like this, and here’s the kingdom.” And that the church’s ministry is to be like that too.

And then for the church to understand that we are a part of the people and not to be living separately, but to be creating these spaces to say, “The kingdom is at hand and the kingdom is like this.” And to create those spaces to experience that, I think that that’s incredible. Like you said, that’s not going to happen if we are to just sit in our separate corner. Or to just do one-off things, because going back to what you were saying even about relationship as foundational to evangelism, there won’t be trust.

And that’s not even the proper context, right? That wasn’t Jesus’ context to share the good news to just one time a year go into the community and say, well, “Hey, come to this church. We’ve got some good news.” Who are you? Why should I come to listen to this?

Brenda: Exactly. I’ll come to you only on the holy days. And then after that, I’ll let you go.

I listened to (I don’t know if you’ve heard of him) Myles Monroe before died and there was this message. He was talking about how we, Christians, we need to learn to stop running away from positions of leadership and the media and things like that. Because if we don’t do that, what happens is those positions are being filled by people who may not necessarily be Christians. And so, what would happen is you see networks showing things that are not Christian for our Christian children.

But if we sort of try to get in those places, what happens is then we, ourselves, we’re able to influence, even in our own little corner, what is being done or what has been said, or what has been shown to people. So, I think it’s really important for Christians to rise up and begin to get involved.

Cara: Yes. And to be ambassadors, as you said, be those ambassadors. Yeah. Creating those tastes of the kingdom, wherever we go. That’s good.

And so how can we continue? Because there are a number of different ways that we can, and the church historically has thought about evangelism. So how can we continue to develop the church and our churches locally and our members to think about evangelism relationally?

Brenda: Well, speak on it. Keep talking, keep talking. That’s the first and basic thing I think we have to do; we have to keep talking about it. We need to sensitize people’s consciousness. The more you hear something, the more (that’s why we need to be careful what we put in us, even as Christians) because the more you hear something, the more you listen to something that thing becomes what is innate in you. It becomes part of you, becomes your subconscious.

That’s why Joshua tells us, “Day and night, I will read the Bible. And I will study his word day and night,” because the more we study the word of God, the better we are, as children of God.

So, I think the first thing is for us to constantly speak about it, constantly talk about. Create intentional activities, sensitizing our congregation. Put deadlines. Say, every three months, let’s look for something that we can do. Every six weeks, let’s look for something that we can do, and make it an intentional activity for the church. Make it an intentional activity for our local congregation.

And so, people’s minds begin to to accept, begin to understand the importance of this relational evangelism. Like I said, if you talk more about it, people hear it. And then they begin to work at it.

Set goals. Let’s set goals. Let’s set goals for these activities. Let’s create S.M.A.R.T. goals for our congregation to say, “Oh guys, this year we want to do at least XYZ number of relational – have relational evangelism and be able to have an inclusive evangelism that includes our community.”

And you find out the truth is, you find that when we begin to do these things, the local congregation, it will not just be around the church. They will start thinking, even in their offices, they’ll be thinking, “Oh, how do I do this? Even here? How do I get people around me here to know about Christ?”

So, it’s something we need to continue to speak about. We need to speak about. And even in the process, there are times where we’ll do activities that might make mistakes, but even in our mistakes, we learn.

So, we learn from our mistakes, and we celebrate our successes, even in doing this and now we know what to do and what not to do. But the basic thing is just talk about it, sensitize people about it. We’ve seen movements being created all because of talk. Use social media, if it needs to be, if it’s relevant to your congregation.

Use the youth, they are very vibrant. They’re ready to go to Timbuktu for you, for what they believe in. So, let’s put it on our Whatsapp platforms and our local congressional platforms and our Zoom platforms. Let’s talk about it where we do Bible study, make it something that we talk about, we share. Let people talk about their experiences.

The more we do this – and let’s not make it a one congregation thing. So, if say Ghana is going to do it, for example, let it be something that the whole of Ghana is aware of, not just one congregation. So that in all the congregations, all of the communities where we have GCI Ghana congregations, we’re all talking about the same thing, we’re all doing the same thing. And around the community, they all know, they can all see, now these people really are different. They really love God. And they really want to share about Christ. They really want to talk about Christ. And before you know it, things happen.

I mean, during COVID, there were so many things that the church had to learn to start doing, relational evangelism stuff, that the church had to start doing, because now you’re stuck in your homes, you have your community around you. What do you do?

So, during COVID we all had to get out. We all had to reevaluate our local community and say, “Okay, how can we reach out?” It’s not just where we are in terms of the placement or the location of our local church. It’s also where we live, it’s also our offices, it’s also our schools.

Christ’s message needs to go out. It needs to go out and we have to be ready to share it. Share it to the world, let the world know who it is and how proud we are to have him as a father, a savior, and a Lord and master. So, we just need to keep talking and make S.M.A.R.T. goals so that the church is sensitized and they’re aware that that’s where we’re headed.

Cara: Yes. I think that, as you say, as we talk about it, then we’re thoughtful, we’re intentional. And in community, together as the church, we’re participating in what God is doing in our midst. And we’re discerning, how is he inviting us to participate in his ministry, in sharing his good news.

I love what you say about making those goals, because I think that that’s those two things together: talking about it and learning, discussing intentionally how we want to participate and think about ministry and then also doing. Connecting our thinking with our participation is important! Because we can sit around a table and talk all day, but then something about the actually participating physically in how we are discerning God inviting us to participate in his ministry is important. And as you said, we will make mistakes, but together we’ll learn and we’ll grow, and God will continue to teach us in that. I think that as we do that, we continue to be transformed. We continue to grow and learn and become more excited about this way of sharing his good news.

I think that that’s a great way to think. And then, like you said, corporately as well as personally, there may be things that we do collectively as a church, but then it also transforms the way that we exist in the world, even in our personal spaces, like work or school or things like that.

Yeah. That’s good. It’s a transformation.

Brenda: That’s very true.

Cara: Are there challenges or joys that you’ve experienced as you have built these relationships in your community that you’d like to share with our listeners?

Brenda: Ay, ay, ay! Okay. So, we used to do what is called the youth retreat in Ghana. And we actually got this idea from Anthony Mullins and his wife when we came for the GCI convention. I think it was in 2017.

We came back and we got an idea to just go around the whole of Ghana with the youth to have youth retreats. We would take youth from the south side of Ghana, and we would take them up to the Volta Region, or the different regions of Ghana, to just talk to them, about their local church, the challenges they were having, and also evangelize around the community.

And one of the first challenge we realized is we need to know our community. We need to know what our community likes, what is acceptable, what is unacceptable in that community. For us, there are some communities you can’t just walk in there and say, you want to do evangelism. There’re some communities where you need to go speak to some people who are the elders of the community and say, “Look, we want to just come and talk to you about, talk to your people about the love of Christ.” And they have to give us the say, the “yes” say. Some communities, you will go, you don’t have to do that.

But you have to also understand things like, what language they speak in those communities. Sometimes if we don’t have the right people who would actually share the word of Christ to them, what would happen is we’ll get to the marketplace and we’re speaking English and the people in that community, they don’t understand English. Or they would rather you speak to them in the local dialect, and we don’t have someone.

So, the first thing that I would say is know your community. Know what they are. Know their dislikes, know their likes, know what is acceptable. Know what they are prone to. Know what makes them who they are. We can then walk from that to knowing how to approach them with the word of Christ.

And I think we see that in Paul. Paul does that very well. If you looked all through his (I think 13 or 19) books that he wrote in the New Testament, you would see that that’s what he does. First, he’ll start talking to them from a point they are familiar with. So, he wants to talk to them about the love of Christ, well he will start telling them about the law of Moses and the law of what they already know. So, they start from a place that they are familiar with, and then he builds it on to say, look, now this is the fulfillment of the law.

And that’s what we should do too. Know our community. Know the people we’re going to talk to and then build up from there.

And then when we build up from there, we’ll also be able to know the right timing to go to those places. Because those are some of the challenges we were having as well. Sometimes the timings we will set to do any kind of community evangelism might not be right. So we would have to change some of the timings, things like that.

And then, like I said, get the right resources. Get the right resources that would help, that would be able to pass your message across. Get the right people. Get the right equipment and things like that.

And then you’ll find that a lot of the times, when those things are put in place, it still doesn’t mean the community is going to accept you. Because that’s one of the challenges in some of the places we went to, it didn’t mean the community was accepting us. Sometimes you would go, like I was talking about, the story of the young man we spoke to, in that same community, there were people we spoke to who told us, “Look, I’m not interested. I don’t want to hear about it.”

So, you would have rejections. And when you have things like that, don’t take it personal. Don’t take it personal at all. Take it like, okay, this is not the time for this person. Pray with him, if he lets you, if she lets you and then move on to someone else.

Because the truth is in his time, he makes all things beautiful, in his time. It’s not about my timing; it’s his time. Our job is to go and evangelize. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts. So, it’s his time. That is important. It’s not our time.

Those are some of the challenges that we’ve faced in ministry, in youth ministry, in terms of being able to walk with people in the community with our youth retreat ministry. And during as well, we’ve got some really great success stories, by the grace of God.

We found that even as we move out to evangelize to people, we’re actually building our youths as well, because what we do is, it’s not always us that’s speaking. Most of the time we allow the youth themselves speaks and you find out when they do this, they are then forced to study the word themselves. And then they’re forced to look into the Bible so that they know they’re saying the right thing. We go back and forth on their messages and things like that.

So, we find out that one of the joys we see, is our youth being built up in the word. And they are being fully grounded in the word, even as they go out and evangelize the word. And that’s how it is. The teacher, you need to also be fed.

And sometimes when you do these things and you listen to them, there’s a joy in your heart when you see these youth who some 1, 2, 3, 4 years ago, didn’t even want to know anything about Christ, but now they are very vocal about the love of Christ and they’re ready to speak. Sometimes when they speak, you begin to see the giftings of the word that comes out of them. And yeah, you’re identifying different talents that the Lord has placed in them that you can use during this thing.

You’re building the outside of the church and you’re also building the inside of the church as well. And that’s why I like the fact that the church is concentrating on us being a healthy church, not a church that is focused so much on numbers; we’re more focused on the quality of the church members as against quantity.

So, for me, those are the things, the challenges and some of the joys that we’ve experienced in building relationships within the communities that we go to during our youth retreats.

Cara: Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. As you’re learning through these joys and challenges, what advice do you have to share with our listeners as we all journey in living out evangelism as relationship?

Brenda: I think the first thing for me will be that we should be open-minded. Because what you find out is everyone has been through something.

Everyone has a journey that they’ve been through. If we want to actually live out an evangelistic lifestyle in our community, we need to be open-minded. We need to be open, to listen to people’s struggles, be willing to listen to people’s ideas.

We don’t think that we have autonomy to wisdom, we have autonomy to knowledge. In our ministry, we’ve learned that even some of the young Y.E.S. kids teach us things and literally, they would make a statement and it would just trigger something in us. So be open-minded to learn, be humble to know that, no, we don’t have all the knowledge. We can learn from each other. I learn from you; you learn from me. It’s not about if I’m in the church or out of the church.

There are times when you are talking to people who, and like I said before, all they just want to hear is, the love of Christ. They just want to hear that this person actually cares and loves me.

And so that’s the advice I would give.  Be open-minded.

The next thing I would say is I remember 1 Corinthians 16:14, when he says that we should do everything, everything in love, that we should always act in love. So, when we’re going out like this, we should permeate the love of Christ.

Everything about us should be about the love of Christ. And that love is the agape, like we all know, the agape kind of love that keeps record of no wrong, that is patient, that is kind, that doesn’t envy. Doesn’t boast. It’s not arrogant. It’s not rude. It doesn’t insist, it’s my way or the highway.

It is the love that bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things. And when we begin to walk in love like that, you find that the community will be warmed up to us. They will see us as a people of love. And because we represent love, who is not attracted to love?

I mean, everybody wants to be loved. When we walk as children of love, the community is also open to us, to want to understand the kind of love that we have and be able to want to walk also in that love. For me, those would be the two things that has really helped: being open-minded and being open to show the love of Christ and walk in the love of Christ.

And that’s it. That that would be it for me in terms of what we need to do.

Cara: Well, that is really good advice, Brenda. So, thank you for sharing that. And as we start to wrap up our conversation today, is there anything else that we haven’t discussed or that I haven’t asked you, that you’d like to share?

Brenda: No, I don’t think so. I’m just really, like I said before, I’m really glad and happy that we’re looking at the direction that Dr. Greg has taken us, in terms of being open, being open to having a healthy church. So, we’re focusing, not just inside, but outside as well.

Because one of the challenges we found as well, is sometimes when we go out and we do this evangelism and people come into the church, they don’t actually see that atmosphere when we don’t have an organized or structure that makes them want to stay. Sometimes they come, a few times, and then they leave again. And then we have to go back again to try and get them back again. And it’s like, go back, go back, you’re going back and forth. So, I’m really glad with the direction where we’re not just focusing on the outside, which is a Love Avenue. But we also doing the Hope Avenue, and we’re moving even further to do the Faith Avenue, where we are interested in our people. We’re making sure that people that come stay, and we’re all growing together in the word.

For me, that is something that is so beautiful. And it’s very crucial, especially in the ministry that we’re in, because you find out even now, a lot of the youth, they want to go out. They don’t want to stay in the church. Why? Because the atmosphere that they need, the kind worship they would want to experience, they sort of think, okay, I’m not getting it here.

But thank God for this. A lot of the youth are staying in the church. A lot of the youth are beginning to open up. A lot of the youth are beginning to talk about being part of the church, the church’s growth. So, I’m really happy with that, the focus and the way we’re going. And I pray that the Lord will continue to give him more wisdom so he can come up with brilliant ideas like this again.

Cara: Amen. And that’s a good word, even on the interconnectedness of the three ministry Avenues.

So, I thank you, Brenda, for this really rich discussion. And I think that our listeners will have a lot to continue to pray about and to discuss with members and leaders locally.

As we prepare to end our episode for today, we love to have a little bit of fun on GC Podcasts. So, I have a few fun questions for you, and you can just answer with the first thing that comes to mind. So, no pressure, no pressure, but here we go.

Brenda, would you rather be forced to sing along or dance along to every single song you hear?

Brenda: Sing along. I love to sing.

Cara: Oh, okay. Do you prefer mountains or beaches?

Brenda: Beaches.

Cara: What is the best piece of advice you’ve ever been given

Brenda: Be yourself.

Cara: Oh, that’s a good one.

What’s your favorite game to play as a child?

Brenda: Oh, I don’t think you’d know that one.

Cara: That’s all right. You can share for our listeners anyhow.

Brenda: It’s a game we used to call Ten Ten. It’s played within two people. Sometimes you can line up a group of as many people as possible on one side and then on the other side. And you clap your hands, and you jump up. It’s called Ten Ten where I come from.

Cara: Okay, nice. Well, for our listeners who don’t know that game, they can Google it or ask a friend.

What is the place that you’ve always wanted to travel?

Brenda: I think now maybe Singapore now.

Cara: Oh, nice. Yeah. What is your favorite time of day?

Brenda: Ay, ay, ay. Favorite time of day? Hmm. I guess, early morning. Dawn.

Cara: Thank you. And the last question, what would the title of your autobiography?

Brenda: Oh my goodness. Ay, ay, ay! Oh, that’s a good one. Title of my autobiography? “I was here!”

I don’t know.

Cara: That’s a fun one. That was a tough question.

Well, Brenda, thank you so much for taking your time to join us today. It is our practice with GC Podcast to end our show with prayer. So, would you be willing to pray for our churches, pastors, and ministry leaders and members in GCI today?

Brenda: Yes, that’s fine. Let us pray.

Our Father in heaven, we thank you. We thank you so much for being the God that you are, being the God who never fails, the God who is always with us, the God who teaches us, who walks with us, who is intentional with your love for us. Father, we’re so grateful for today, we are thankful because we know that we’re not here by our power. We’re not here by our might. We’re here because of your grace and your mercy towards us.

And so, we’re thankful for this day, Father. We pray for our leaders of GCI. We pray for our pastors, our ministry leaders. We pray for the pastor’s wives. We pray for all those who are in a position to be servant leaders for our congregation, Father. We pray, oh God, for wisdom. We pray for knowledge. We pray for understanding in your word, oh God, so that they will be fully grounded in you, Father.

We pray for the wisdom to lead in the right way. Father, we pray that you will teach, you will guide, you will help, oh God. So that they will be able to have that wisdom to be able to walk with people that they work with, because we know Lord that it is not by power. It’s not by might.

We know that there are times as human beings, things will happen, oh God, that might make us want to derail from breaking the relationships that we have. But Father, we pray, Lord God, that they will walk in love. That your wisdom will lead every single one of them to walk in love. So, then they would walk in love with their congregation, and they will be able to get through everything together, as one people, bounded by your love. Father, we pray, oh God, not just for wisdom and knowledge and understanding. We also pray, oh God, even for the congregation, oh God, that you would help them also be able to know that it isn’t easy to be a leader. And so, they would also pray for them and be able to walk with them with understanding. Father, we pray to our King of glory, that you will guide and protect our homes.

Oh God, we know that if we’re away doing ministry, there are times when you are tired. You’re frustrated. You’re just, you’re spent, Father. So, we pray for strength, oh God. We pray for strength for our ministry leaders, that you will continue to give them the strength to carry on, to fight that good fight, even until the end, knowing fully well, that their reward is with you, Lord.

Father, we pray also for their families that you will bless them. You will guide them. You will protect them. You will help them to be able to be a pillar of support to the ministry leaders, oh God, so that they will be able to hold them up and they’ll be able to do the work, the ministry where you have placed them to the best of their ability, Father.

Most of all, we pray that the Holy Spirit will continue to guide them, oh God. Father, we do not want to speak of our own, oh God. We want the Holy Spirit to continue to lead us, to teach us how to walk, how to behave, how to lead, how to be the best leader that we could possibly be, oh God.

So Father, we pray that we will always have the Holy Spirit to help us, to guide us through it all. And Father, most of all, we pray also that we will lead as humble leaders, oh God, as servant leaders, taking example, oh King of glory, from our Lord Jesus Christ, who even washed the feet of his disciples.

Even though he was God, he did not count himself to be like that, but he came into the form of a human being just so that he could show the love that you have for us, so we could have a relationship with you. And so, Father, we pray, tender King of glory, that all our leaders have that attitude of being a servant leader. Help them, oh God, to be able to have that humble spirit, to be able to lead and walk in you. To be a good shepherd, be a good shepherd, oh God.

Father, we thank you, oh God, for we know these things we can’t do by ourselves. It’s only by you. And so, we pray oh God that you continue to walk with us. Help us and guide us even until the end. So that like Paul said, we have fought the good fight and we fought all the way till the end, oh God.

Father, we bless your holy name. And we thank you so much for listening to us. We do not take the fact that you hear us for granted because we know you paid a great price for us to be able to attain your throne of grace like this, oh God. So, Father, we thank you, oh Lord, for your love for us. We thank you for the blood that was shed for us on Calvary, oh God.

And we thank you for, oh Lord, the Holy spirit, who is here with us to guide us. Thank you so much, Lord, for everything that you do for us. You’re a great God, a great King, you’re our Father, our Redeemer. You’re the one who sits in the heavens and all the earth is your footstool.  Father, we are grateful to call you our own.

We bless your holy name. And we thank you so much for all that you do for us, for in the mighty name of Jesus Christ have we prayed. In his name do we pray. Amen.

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Cara: One thing that spoke to me is when Brenda spoke about the church, realizing that it is part of the people. What made an impression on you, Sarah?

Sarah: I appreciated how Brenda highlighted the importance of creating a level of trust. She said, let everyone trust our words and our integrity.

And I think a key component of establishing trust is being transparent with your motives from the beginning of a relationship. If you go into a relationship with a plan to tell people about Jesus directly, I think you really need to tell that to people early on, or at least hint at that, by saying I’m a Christian.

Otherwise, people can feel like you developed this relationship with them just for the purposes of your own agenda. And if your approach is more about developing genuine relationship with people and having them take the initiative and asking you about your beliefs, then I think it is vital that you are honest with your answers to their questions in order to establish that trust in your integrity.

If they ask you a question that you do not know how to answer, say you’ll get back to them. Or if you don’t think that they will like the answer to a question about what you or your church believes, you still need to answer them, honestly, transparently, and directly, even if they don’t agree with you, they will be able to trust you in your integrity.

And if they make it clear, they don’t want to hear about Jesus, but are still interested in being your friend, I say, you still be friends with them, but only if you’re able to respect their boundaries. If you can be honest with them, with their questions and respect their boundaries, then true relationship is possible.

Cara: Thanks, Sarah. That is insightful advice on the practicalities of what it can look like to demonstrate that trust and integrity in relationship.

Now in GCI, we do have a lot of great resources available as we learn and grow in ministry participation together. One of those resources is Grace Communion Seminary.

Sarah:  Grace Communion Seminary now offers a seven-course diploma of Christian ministry with a focus on discipleship, worship, or witness designed for GCI Avenue champions.  Visit www.gcs.edu for more information.

Cara: Friends, we really appreciate you listening to the GC Podcast. If you like what you heard, go on ahead and give us a rating wherever you listened to the podcast. It really does helps us get the word out and help others join in the conversation. Until next time, keep living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast.  We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, healthy churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.