John Rogers—Year C Easter 7 through Proper 8

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view.

I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, John Rogers. John is the founder and director of Peterson House in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Peterson House is a place for people to slow down, sit with Scripture, listen to it and each other, and have it shape their lives. You can find out more information at https://www.petersonhousenc.org, and we’ll place that in the show notes. Prior to starting Peterson House, John spent 22 years in various campus ministry roles, and he earned a Master of Divinity degree from Duke Divinity School, right here in Durham, North Carolina.

John, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time, we’d like to know a little bit about you, your story, and how you’re participating with the Lord these days.

[00:01:35] John: Thanks, Anthony. It’s good to be here. I think the best summary of who I am is someone that is a pilgrim on the way, trying to be close to the one who gives me more life than I can ever imagine. And I feel like my story speaks to that, a story that started back in 1972 when I was born in Raleigh, North Carolina.

My dad a banker, my mother an insurance agent, and coming from a family; not any clergy. I think you had to go back a good bit on my mother’s side to find someone that was in the Lutheran church out in the Midwest.

But I thought, when I was a kid … we soon moved to Florida where I had a lawn mowing business as a kid. I went to the beach, and I played a lot of golf. And I thought that’s just what I was going to do. I was really good — at the golf part. I think I was really good at the lawn mowing part too. It was, they looked really good. But I was recruited by a college back in North Carolina to come back and play collegiate golf for four years, where I was an all-American, and really was given a lot of opportunities with that.

And my body started to take the toll from that twisting and turning. And it was a time in my life where I was in college, and I had a campus ministry program at a small Methodist college that took an investment in me. And when I figured out pretty quickly after interning at my father’s bank one summer that I probably was not meant for an office job and personal finance. And an intro class in my freshman year also suggested that I probably wanted to find some other things to do.

[00:03:22] Anthony: Do you want to share your grades? Is that what you’re inviting us to do?

[00:03:23] John: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Well, it was a C, and I realized that there were other things I probably loved doing more that I might be able to make a career out of. And so, it’s interesting. I know a lot of people find their way to studying religion and philosophy from a heart for it early on. But I found my way to the religion and philosophy program, because I had both a campus pastor and members of that faculty that took an interest in me. And I think that’s all often spoken to me loud and clear in my whole life, that when you take an interest and an investment in other people, of how you can speak truth over people’s life and invitation.

And I graduated. I didn’t go off to the PGA tour, and I went to Duke Divinity School. And my first semester at Duke Div. when I was the RA at the Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity on West campus as a UNC fan my entire life. Thankfully, Duke was not good that year. It was the year that Mike Krzyzewski had some back problems, and he was out.

So, they didn’t burn any benches outside of my dorm that I was responsible for. I started getting night sweats and blurred vision. Some people thought, “Hey, that’s probably just a stress of grad school.” Within a matter of weeks, I was in the hospital and being treated for Hodgkin’s disease and diagnosed with a form of lymphoma in my lymph system. And had that cancer diagnosis and spent it — I don’t know how other people spent their first year in Div. school — I spent it getting chemotherapy and radiation. And so, the good thing about that is, I could claim problems with my short-term memory because of that. So, when I didn’t do well on a polity exam or something, that was why.

But soon I got back on the saddle and finished up there, headed off to my first call at a boys’ prep school in Tennessee. And then was there for 10 years in an academic role and really loved it. I was a coach as well. And then made my way back to North Carolina where I was a campus pastor at the University of North Carolina, with a campus ministry there, and got to do that for 12 years.

I’ve got three kids. Got a daughter that’s down in Auburn, Alabama studying to be a nurse. And she just called me this morning saying that she passed her latest clinical with flying colors. I’m super proud. I was talking to her while I was at my cardiology appointment. So, we got to trade notes. That was helpful.

And I have two little kids as well, a third and fifth grader — a boy and a girl that I’ll, that I get to spend a ton of time with. And then, I would say, your question around like, how am I participating in what the Lord is doing? I feel like that I am good for maybe the day or the week and having a sense of perspective of where the Lord is inviting me to be.

And that sometimes is at a checkout aisle. Sometimes that’s in a setting where I’m facilitating some time in Scripture. But I think when we are disoriented — and my dad just died recently about two weeks ago — and I feel like when we come with a level of honesty and brevity to life that we’re honest about that we are finite creatures depending on God’s generous care and eternal promises, I think this whole concept of lingering and being purposeful and attentive — I just think that’s the way I’m going to live. That’s not an apology for the way I was aerobic in my life before I started this ministry. But I just, I don’t want to live any other way. And I feel like that is the exact posture that we get both of our God in the Hebrew Scripture, but especially in what we see in the incarnation of our God in Jesus that is a Savior that wants to slow down and be with us in that kind of space.

So that’s a little bit about who I am and I’m just glad to be here.

[00:07:21] Anthony: We’re glad to have you here, especially given the circumstances. You and I had talked offline, and I had heard about your father’s passing and we’re deeply sorry for your loss. And you also made the comment that struck me that Scripture is part of the healing process — just coming around the word of God. And that’s a big part of your life and what the Peterson House is about. Why don’t you tell us a little bit more about why you felt compelled to start it and lead this and maybe talk about some of that healing that comes through Scripture.

[00:07:51] John: Yeah, thanks for asking it that way, Anthony. I just think it’s — I think it’s true and through my practice, I’m reaping benefits of the fruit that is being born from purposeful time in Scripture that I just don’t think I’ve ever gotten it in any other way.

Peterson House was started; and it’s funny, the name Peterson, named in memory of Eugene Peterson, really Eugene and Jan and their hospitality of welcoming people to their home and the way that they were in Scripture with other people.

At first it was called Uncovered Word Ministries. That’s our legal name. Our DBA is Peterson House. And it was originally drawn from this image that the Lord gave me. Back in this 2 Kings passage, I think I’m getting it right, where Josiah, one of the couple of good kings that we have, had some folks digging around in the temple. And I often thought that text was, it made more sense that it was after the destruction, and they were coming back, and it was like Ezra, Nehemiah, kind of cleaning things up.

But when I got my history right, I understood that it was in disarray and disrepair at a time when it was not destroyed. And so, this vision that I had, was around how do we uncover Scripture in ways that it feels like it’s been lost? And eventually a friend of mine asked me as we were putting together a pilot, “Is there a person that inspired you, that is inspiring to you, and what they have done in their own ministry in something kind of like what you’re doing?”

And I know not everybody knows who Eugene Peterson is, but he was super important to me. I met him once. He had a real heart for Scripture. And he was a poet. He loved being outdoors. He saw geography really as God’s way of playing out Scripture in a visible way. But the more I worked at this, I realized that my dilemma, and the reason why we created Peterson House, was pretty similar to Eugene Peterson back in the eighties when he was beginning to really enter into Scripture in a creative way, which we called the American vernacular.

Eugene was up in the Baltimore, Maryland suburbs and Bel Air, and he was really struggling that his people there at the church — it was a new church development — that, one, they weren’t that interested in Scripture, and something that was so important to Eugene and really a heart for Scripture that his mother gave him, out in Montana when he was growing up as a kid — and his mom is a Pentecostal preacher — he said, “It seems like it’s not important to them.”  That’s a big issue, because Scripture is the single most important indicator for your spiritual health. How do we figure out a way to get it in, to make it more accessible to you? And Eugene figured out a way to do that because he’s a scholar. And he had a gift of language and interpretation.

I’ve not interpreted the entire Bible into whatever language that is familiar to Chapel Hill, North Carolina, but he did. And so, my dilemma here was, I was realizing with the college students that I was working with, and really not just them —you might think stereotypically college students — not really interested in Scripture and wanting to do a lot of other things —and maybe it was just that demographic, but when I was preaching at some local churches, I was realizing more and more that people just had absolutely no clue about Scripture. And I was, I felt like what they were saying to me in those settings where they were shaking my hand and I was leaving church — when they were leaving church — they were commending me for my excitement and enthusiasm for how I was in Scripture and the way that I preached on a Sunday morning. But I realized that it wasn’t just that they didn’t know Habakuk or some other obscure book in the Bible. They just didn’t know any of it. And I started doing some research and realized that this was a major issue.

And my father used to say to me, you can recognize and diagnose a problem and then you’re left with a couple of options. And one is, are you going to do anything, are you capable of doing something about it? And so, I quit my job as a pastor at a big steeple church here in Chapel Hill. And it was a ministry that was going well, because I felt like the Lord was inviting me to do something about it in the same way that really Eugene felt like, hey! And I think it’s appropriate that today we’re reading some Galatians text. Because that’s where it started for Eugene. Like, how do we translate this into a language and really spend time in it? That it really is a story that is not this “antiquitous” story that is so inaccessible and foreign. It’s something that has a lot of life.

And it’s kind of funny — I say to a lot of people — my enthusiasm goes a long way for Scripture to make other people excited about it. But what we do is not that hard. But all we’re doing is really the concierge service of saying we’re going to honor some time, and we’re going to read it a couple of times and we’re going to be in silence together. And then, when we have a conversation, and hear how the Spirit is opening up people’s hearts to this text, we are actually going experience it empowered by the Holy Spirit. And it’s just been so absolutely beautiful and life changing for me. And it’s really a confirmation to me that the Lord is really blessing this response and what we’re doing, not because of what we have in our bank account or what little money we’re able to raise to do this — because we don’t charge anybody anything to do it with us, with our small group ministry.

But the people whose lives are being changed — and that really is really encouraging to me as we lead this ministry. And we’re basically a small group ministry online and in person just trying to honor that unhurried delight. Eugene used to say, we ought to approach Scripture the way that a dog lingers over a bone — that we savor it, that we let it metabolize into who we are. Because, you know what? If we eat it indifferently, we’re sticking our finger down our dog’s throat, trying to dig it out because they’re choking on it. And so, we want to linger. We want to let it seep into us. And I feel like that’s what we’re doing.

[00:14:14] Anthony: God bless you. God bless the ministry of Peterson House. Eugene Peterson, like so many people, he’s a hero of the faith to me. My wife and I were on a boat on Flathead Lake there in Montana, just imagining what it would be like to hang out with him and Jan there. But yeah, what a gift he is. He tells it “slant” as is the title of one of his books. Thinking about the parables, and may we tell it slant as we come to Scripture here today and look at the lectionary text. So, thank you for being with me.

Our first passage of the month is Revelation 22: 12–14, 16–17, and also 20–21. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the seventh Sunday in Easter, which is June 1.

“See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. ¹³ I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” ¹⁴ Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates.  “It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” ¹⁷ The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let everyone who hears say, “Come.” And let everyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift. The one who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! ²¹ The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen.

And when we come to Scripture, John, we’re always searching to find out what the text is revealing to us about God. So, from your perspective, your exegetical perspective, what does this text tell us about God?

[00:16:07] John: I love, I always love thinking about the parameters of a text and what it says of kind of where we are in the book. And regardless of sort of our understanding historically of the chronology of the New Testament gospels and epistles, that this, here it is at the end, and this is the last word, and what it says to me about God’s character. God is, we are both saying, kind of this maranatha quote from Corinthians, like, “Come Lord Jesus” — that, we are asking that.

But as I was thinking about this text in preparation for this recording, I was also imagining because I really, there’s so much in this world right now and in my life that I’m like, Lord Jesus, I just need you to come. And that’s not a temporary by the power of the Holy Spirit come. But I need you to come back and restore that which is broken in my life and in this world.

But I’m also hearing a God of the covenant who is the Alpha and the Omega, who is saying, come to me. And there is this uniform openness to that which speaks to God’s character of invitation. And I think sometimes when we think about Revelation, we feel like that it’s just this wild apocalyptic eschatological book.

And if we, and when we do that, it feels like that we paint a different picture, a wild picture of it. But I think at the heart of what we’re getting here at the end of our Scripture is a God that’s saying the same thing that he said. And I love that right before this text, Eden is restored. God is saying, “Come to me. I want to be in fellowship. I want to be in relationship. I want to be with you. And so, I’ve just proven that — I came to you.” Here we have Jesus saying, “I’m sending an angel to speak these things to you.” And we get a word of invitation.

And the last word, Anthony, I think it’s so beautiful. The last word we get is grace. “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen.” And so, I think that’s what I’m hearing here.

[00:18:20] Anthony: If you’re preaching this text to the congregation, and of course it’s unique to every congregation, but what else would you convey beyond the fact that Jesus says, “Come,” and gives us the final word of grace.

[00:18:32] John: I think this is king of funny because Eugene Peterson never liked either. He didn’t want to give verses, here and here, so he breaks it down occasionally, like three verses here, like in sections. And he certainly didn’t want to give the sections headers.

But when I look at my Bible, I have a parallel Bible where on one side it’s the NIV, on the other side, it’s the Message. And I love, like, when I look at this, it says on one side, in the NIV, in the sections, the two sections in chapter 22, there are three sections. Eden Restored, John and the Angel. And then lastly, Epilogue, Invitation and Warning. And those feel pretty good and like structurally true. But I love what Eugene, when he is forced — I don’t know if it was him or somebody else in the editing process — to put a title where it says, right before verse 6, Don’t Put it away on the Shelf. I think as my invitation to anyone preaching this text will be reminded that though it is important to exposit God’s word in the pulpit, your words carry very little power if you are not dusting off that Scripture and letting it penetrate your life in your own private chamber.

And I think we often think in transaction. Like I do it as well in teaching and facilitating, but I love that header. Don’t put it away on the shelf, don’t appropriate the text into a programmatic function or a function of the job that you might even be really gifted at. That here is a word that is alive, that is true, that is filled with goodness and grace and promise. That, if this is the Bright and Morning Star, let him be the bright and morning star as you put your sermons together, as you draw from this Scripture to let it encourage those people who have your attention.

[00:20:26] Anthony: I’ve often wondered at John. What would it sound like if we actually took Scripture as the more important word than our own words as preachers and teachers? Huh? If we read Scripture in that way, that this is truly the most important word we’re going to receive today. And I’ve heard pastors say sometimes after stating a pericope, like we just read in Revelation that, “Oh, that taught itself. I should sit down now.” And sometimes I think, yeah, let’s just do that and leave it there. Especially with a book that says, don’t add any words or beware.

John: That’s right. True. That’s true.

Anthony: Let’s transition to our second pericope of the month. It is John 14:8–17. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Pentecost on June 8. John, would you read it for us please?

[00:21:15] John:

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” ⁹ Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? ¹⁰ Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. ¹¹ Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, but if you do not, then believe because of the works themselves. ¹² Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. ¹³ I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. ¹⁴ If in my name you ask me for anything, I will do it. ¹⁵ “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. ¹⁶ And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you forever. ¹⁷ This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him because he abides with you, and he will be in you.

[00:22:44] Anthony: So much good there. Jesus said, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” John, this strikes me as significant in how it shapes our theological understanding of God. Tell us more.

[00:22:57] John: Yeah, I love this text, as complicated as it is, and I think John just gets wordy sometimes. But I think it’s culturally appropriate when he was writing. I think all these words say, and what Jesus is saying so succinctly is, if you’re looking at me, you are seeing face to face — prósopon me prósopon — you’re seeing God.

And when I think of that, like, I imagine Philip and the others, the ones that were afraid to even ask the question, oh my gosh, Anthony! They’re still saying I need to see more. What this says about God’s character in Jesus is, “You’re seeing my very character, my life giving, reconciling character in me.” Right? Here we are in John 14 leading up to Jerusalem and to the cross, and still God continues to pour God’s self out even when we want more proof. And so, the theological understanding of this and what it says of God is, I love, that God’s character and what God is wanting to convey is not contingent on my need for more data or proof.

[00:24:21] Anthony: Yeah. Amen. And amen to that. It stands on its own two feet. Truth is truth. It is not enhanced by how many believe it. It is not diminished by who doesn’t see it. And I still, I just — you can hear Jesus’ heart like, “Philip, we just came from the upper room. Did you, were you not paying attention? Do you not see the Father at work when you see me?” And I wonder how often, if we were walking with Jesus, he would say the same to me, like, “John, Anthony, guys, have you not seen it?” And so, we …

[00:24:58] John: Anthony, I think as you’re saying that, what’s so interesting —I didn’t even think about this until right now — is that, like, when I think of Philip, I rarely think of Philip in the gospel of John. I think of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, right?

Anthony: Sure.

John: And so, when I hear this promise and this, really this, blessing over Philip and the company of the other disciples that were being told they’re going to do far greater things than their master. And not just their master, not just their rabbi, but the Son of God. They’re going to do far greater things — that here, Philip is in an instrumental way of basically taking the church to North Africa. And so, it just blows my mind that I read this in light of a fuller story that Philip does not have that perspective yet, …

[00:25:43] Anthony: And he will get it. And that leads me to my next question or thought: it’s about the Spirit of Truth.

Yes, I heard you say earlier that, “Jesus, come,” and that is our prayer and our cry, “Lord Jesus, come!” But it’s not as if he’s absent, because he promised these very same disciples, he would be with them to the end of the age, that he was sending another, the Advocate, the Spirit of Truth, who would reveal the truth to them.

So, tell us about the work of this Spirit of Truth and what he is doing to reveal to us the truth of who he is.

[00:26:17] John: Yeah. I think there’s two ways that I think of this. I think there’s this perspective of me understanding as I’m reading Scripture as much as I can of how the Spirit unveils things to me.  In my world, it’s often with other people, of trying to broaden how I’m hearing and experiencing something by how the Spirit is really burning in the heart of other people, and paying attention.

But, like, the Spirit is a Spirit of Truth. It’s not a Spirit of hesitation. It’s not a Spirit of, like, “Hey, it’s a little bit of a riddle, like a parable — let’s try to figure it out together. We won’t really figure it out.” But the Spirit, I feel like to me as I hear this, it is a Spirit of Truth. And I wrestle with this because, how much am I able to understand? I’m coming from a reform background and I never want to be so bold as to feel like I’ve narrowed in on all of it. I feel like I’ve had a really good perspective here and everybody else’s heterodox. But the other part … so, one part is how I read Scripture and how I understand this as much as I can.

But Anthony, I think the other part of this too is and I wrote this down, is what I am doing blessed by the Spirit? Like I always feel like I’m about a halfway off. Like I need the Spirit to orient me to the ways I’m really messing things up or I don’t have the confidence, right? I don’t have the confidence to trust what the Spirit has made true, and like, I’m wrestling with whatever is making me anxious or my scale in trying to figure out what’s confirmation that I’m doing the right thing is, I really do wrestle with, like, where do I get the confirmation that the Spirit of Truth is, that what I say I’m being led to do by the Spirit, my Friend, my Advocate is actually blessed by that Spirit. And I don’t know. I think that’s an integrity question.

Anthony: Yes.

John: And I think you know, your question of what is the role the Spirit has in the works we do, which reveal our belief in Jesus as it states here? I think just trusting that the Spirit is true.

Anthony: Yeah. Trust, my brother.

John: I’ll say this really quick. My uncle said to me this weekend, after really just trying to process a lot about my dad’s death, he says, “Don’t complicate it. Be gentle with yourself.” And I think sometimes I try to complicate what actually is the Spirit doing in me and in my life and in the Scripture — how to keep it simple and to trust that the Spirit …

[00:29:11] Anthony: Trust that the Spirit is true — that he, there is this ongoing revelation that he’s leading us into truth. And this is where I think, John, for me, I’m just speaking from my perspective where I have to hold loosely to things — I am where I am today, but it’s not going to be probably where I’ll be in five to 10 years theologically.

And so, this is why, for me, repentance in the way that we see it in the Greek metanoia, the changing of our mind, is so important because one of my prayers before I proclaim the gospel is, “Lord, may I speak truth.” And if I do, rub it in deep into our hearts and souls. But if I say something that’s less than true, may it just dissolve, like vapor be gone and forgotten, because I just know that I’m seeking truth. The Spirit is leading me to truth. I want to trust him, but that doesn’t mean that everything that I say is true. And so, this is why it’s so important to point to Jesus, because he is the embodiment of truth.

John: Yeah.

Anthony: And Lord, forgive us when we’ve been less than true, but thank you for leading us.

John: Yeah.

Anthony: And wooing us by your Spirit. Hallelujah.

Our next pericope of the month is John 16:12–15. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Trinity Sunday on June 15. And it reads,

I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. ¹³ When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. ¹⁴ He will glorify me because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. ¹⁵ All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Trinity Sunday is another opportunity for proclaimers of the gospel to talk about the Trinity, but not as some dusty old doctrine or a mathematical conundrum, but the reality and relational substance of life. John, let me ask you this. What do you make of the Trinitarian dynamics found in this particular text?

[00:31:29] John: I think especially as I read verse 13, “when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears.” I hear in this that there is a reliance on the parts of the Trinity with one another.

And I’m in this Sunday school class right now at our church in Durham, North Carolina that is going through pretty much all the movements of Trinitarian theology in the fourth century with the Council of Nicaea and people getting kicked out, coming back in, kicked out, coming back in, one statement here, another statement there, conversations around substance and ousia and hypostasis. And I found myself in that class on Sunday, and I really respect the people that are leading it. But a lot … what has come up a lot in this class is, what is it about the Trinity that is saying to us about who God is?

And when I think about that, and I think about your question, and here we are on Trinity Sunday. It’s … we’re probably best left with leaving it, as it seems quite biblical, but yet it feels like it falls in a maybe category of mystery that we want to be careful not to over-define it.

Anthony: Oh, for sure.

John: And I feel like this — I had somebody in in seminary once described it to me as — this dance. And again, I think we struggle with the oneness and the separateness of the Spirit. But I just love that it seems like here what we’re getting from Jesus and the Gospel of John is like, there’s an interchange in reliance on each part of the Trinity with one another, and however they’re tied together, whatever substance they are of, with one another. And I don’t want to be nailed as a heretic today on this podcast. But I think that’s the beauty of what Jesus is speaking to them and leaving with them, is that “I have a lot more to say to you. The Spirit would unveil that to you. And just be in a place of receiving that.”

[00:33:39] Anthony: Yeah. I appreciate what you said about the beauty of the relationship. And sometimes you hear the Trinity discuss in such a way that it’s like a riddle to be solved instead of a relationship to be enjoyed …

John: Yeah.

Anthony: … to enter into. The fact that in Christ we get to enjoy unfettered relationship with the Father in the communion of the Spirit. It’s a beautiful thing that is, as you said, a mystery.

And thank God that he’s a mystery. Like we should still be in awe of the, just the awesomeness, and the bigness of our God. That’s one of the takeaways that I see here. John, if you’ll allow me, I’d like to make this a bit personal. Would you be willing to share maybe an event, a season in your life, where you experienced the Spirit guiding you into truth, maybe in surprising and unexpected ways? And how did that experience shape your understanding of God?

[00:34:38] John: Yeah. I’ve been, and I mentioned it in my introduction to myself earlier on, I’ve gone through a couple of pretty big medical events in my life. And one recently, gosh, back in September of 2023. I went into a heart cath. lab thinking that they were just going to say, “Nothing needs to be done, head on home” to, “Oh my goodness, this is not good. You need to stay and we’re going to do surgery on Friday.” Having triple bypass heart surgery as a 50-year-old man because of some impact of a radiation field back in my twenties with my Hodgkin’s diagnosis.

And for three days I had to wait for my surgery; from that point of finding that out on a Tuesday, I was having surgery on a Friday. And everything down to having your, all your whole body shaved down so that you’re ready for surgery, all the tests run, all the pulmonary functionality tests run —everything.

Come Friday morning they wheel me down the hall. And I think everybody I knew in my life, and it’s weird … and it’s weird when people look at … I don’t know if you’ve had this happen to you in your life, Anthony, but when people look at you in a way that they think it might be the last time they see you.

Anthony: Oh wow.

John: And I just had to deal with that. My father-in-law, I still remember him walking in to see me the night before. And he came back in my room several times because he couldn’t leave. And I knew what he was doing. And so, what happened on Friday morning when they took me to surgery around five o’clock in the morning, is my pastor … and it’s weird being a pastor and having a pastor is such a gift, but one of our pastors at our church showed up around 5:30 in the pre-op area. And if you’re familiar with pre-op, I mean it’s a lot going on at 5:30 in the morning on a Friday when a lot of surgeries happen. And he walked in and he said, “John, can I pray with you?”

And what I was saying to him is, I said, “David, I keep hearing the word.” And it helped that I was reading a book about God’s loyalty and God’s faithfulness, hesed, that I just found myself repeating that word all morning. And it wasn’t like some, I don’t know some hypnotic effect of just say this word a lot and then you’ll believe it and live into what the word actually means.

I had every reason in that moment to be in full on panic. I was the husband of a wife I deeply adore and love getting to be in life with and in ministry with. I have three kids. I have a ministry that is growing and people that I feel like I’m engaging. And there was a conceivable chance that I was not going to come out of that surgery. No matter how great a candidate I was, no matter how young they thought I was to be having this surgery, how early they caught it. But I felt like that the Holy Spirit in that moment was saying, “John, I’m loyal to you. And my faithfulness is not any less faithful if you do not survive this surgery.”

[00:37:47] Anthony: Amen.

[00:37:48] John: And you know what I think, Anthony. I feel like that, often, whether we call it prosperity gospel or something else, we often have this transactional understanding in the back of our head that, Lord, I’m just serving you. I’m like, I love you. I wake up every day, and why in the world do you want to give me, like, a coronary bypass procedure? I should be protected from things like that. But what I felt in that moment was not the transaction of my God, failing me.

And I know it’s not everybody’s story, but it’s my story. And my pastor said that you’re the only one I’ve ever heard reciting a Hebrew word hesed when they’re going into surgery. And I can imagine it like it was yesterday and it was nothing short of the power of the Holy Spirit, that I think in one place I’m asking the Spirit to give me clarity in the way I read Scripture.

And that’s happened time and time again. But the way that this fruitfulness of wanting to receive the Holy Spirit to get the benefit of it, that’s not what I want, but what God desires for me. And I just can’t explain it. And my mother is in one of our small groups and she said to the group a couple of months later, when I’d come back for the first time, when we’re asking a question around of what do we see and admire in other people and like where we see the Spirit at work in the world.

And to hear my mother say it, and my mother has stage four cancer, and she had to be admitted in the hospital later that day when I was going into surgery because of her own pain that she was managing. And we’re both coming back to this small group and hearing my mother say, “I noticed something about my son that was unexplainable and was only under … could only be understood as one thing, that … the Spirit of God that is often unleashed in a way with a Pentecostal fervor, right? … that the Spirit was unleashed in a way that was more Quaker-like, right — that ‘I’m going to give a hush of peace that will allow you to enter into that surgery regardless of what was going to happen.’”

[00:39:53] Anthony: That’s … thank God for that. First of all, I’m thankful that he brought you through, but I so appreciated what you said before; even if he hadn’t …

John: Yeah.

Anthony: … God is faithful. He’s good — hesed — that faithful love is true regardless. And so often we do get into this mindset — it’s just based on the situation, the circumstances of my life. No, Lord, we are above all people blessed.

John: Yeah.

Anthony: We are so blessed, but I am thankful that he has brought you through to be able to share that for others, including your father-in-law, to see …

John: Yeah.

Anthony: … to see the trust that you had in him —that bears witness to the goodness of God. So, I really appreciate you sharing that with us.

[00:40:42] John: And one last thing I would say, Anthony, is that often, like when I used to think about, especially like on Trinity Sunday, and like we think about the roles of each, and still on the heels of Pentecost, we think of the Spirit as this kind of violent wind.

This fire feels, oh, it’s going to loosen my tongue and I’m going to speak in an unknown language. It feels wild that there, what I’ve noticed about, like the Spirit is, the Spirit can be very gentle and tender, and like our first text when we were thinking about like this invitation of, “Come to Me.”

Anthony: Yes.

John: That there is a place of invitation that the Spirit is, that what the Spirit is doing is gentle and kind.

[00:41:28] Anthony: Yeah. Almost a wooing, right?

John: Yeah.

Anthony: Come and see, taste and see, that the Lord is good. Come with me. Let’s go.

Let’s go on to our next text. It’s Galatians 3:23–29. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 7 in ordinary time, which is June 22. John, read it for us please.

[00:41:48] John:

Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed. ²⁴ Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be reckoned as righteous by faith. ²⁵ But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian, ²⁶ for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. ²⁷ As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. ²⁸ There is no longer Jew or Greek; there is no longer slave or free; there is no longer male and female, for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. ²⁹ And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to the promise.

[00:42:40] Anthony: “… one in Christ Jesus.” What would you want the audience to know about Paul’s emphasis of Christ and faith in him being the new reality over the law?

[00:42:51] John: Yeah. Every time I come to Galatians there’s really only one thing that I feel like is just sounding an alarm throughout the entire correspondence: Christ is enough. When we try to do “Christ, and” to feed … like we kind of get the theology of justification by faith correct. But, yet, we still live within the pattern of wanting to do something on the back end to really justify ourselves.

Anthony: Yeah.

John: And we even kind of write it to say, it’s like the process of sanctification. But I, what I love here is, all these things — the and …, the more …  — that is really the background of this correspondence, where it was being sold a bill of goods, that yes, Jesus died for your sins, but there are some other things that you need to do to confirm that, to do more.

And I love the emotion that we get from the Apostle Paul here. And I feel like it is an important … I think it’s an important, strong word of saying, be wary when you ever sense that someone is saying, “You need to do more.” And I … but right before I came on this call today, I kid you not, it was … I don’t know where I was hearing it. It must have been on the radio somewhere, or a podcast. But it, no, it was on NPR, I think, where they were interviewing someone, I think in Japan, about the Unification Church. And like, a key concept with within this, he was saying, … and it’s been a long time since I’ve taught this, so forgive me if I’m getting any of this wrong … But really, basically it was: yeah, there needs to be more.

And I think when I read this text from Paul in Galatians, and when I think about any movement that has ever happened historically in the Church is, what is it about us that we always want to do more? And he’s enough, right? If you belong to Christ then you are a … you don’t need to do something within some ceremony, or some either circumcision, or some kosher ritual, or maybe some pattern of celebration — that you are heirs. Like to this gentile community, “If you’re gentiles that are hearing this, that you’re like” … “oh my gosh, I’m really not in the inside group here.” No. And hearing, oh my goodness, Anthony, hearing this come from a guy like Paul, like someone who is studying under Gamaliel, that if anybody is going to communicate, yeah, you’re not in, you got to do some more stuff. No.

I feel, like, how often in my own ministry, in my life, I run into people that feel like I’m not enough. I need to do something to earn it. I’ve been so bad, or I feel like that I don’t understand it well enough. It’s an intellectual exercise. I’m not ready. To hear someone say, “You right now, you are an heir,” it has a lot of power.

[00:45:55] Anthony: It does. And I wonder, John, and I’ve thought about this a lot … if it’s really our pride, we’re offended to hear that Christ is enough for me. No, I’m going to pull my boots up by the straps and I’m going to work. And J.B. Torrance, the Scottish theologian, often talked about the greatest sin of humanity is turning God’s covenant into a contract.

And anytime we try to add something to what God has done, we’re turning it back into a contract. No, it then it becomes quid pro quo. God, I’ve done this for you; now you’ve got to do this for me. This is how this works. because that’s how contracts work.

No, this is covenant and Christ is all. Oh, and that’s good news. When we let it just seep into the marrow of our bones. That’s such good news.

John: Yeah.

Anthony: What would you have to say about verse 28? What’s your interpretation?

[00:46:46] John: Yeah. I have spent a lot of time with this verse over the last couple of years, and I think there’s so much thought around. If someone wants to know who I am, right? What’s my identity?

And I elevate things and into a place of essential parts of my identity. Like what’s essential, like I think in these conversations, regardless of position on how we understand people’s understanding of their identity, I think there’s just a problem. There’s a uniform problem. And it’s indicting to me, Anthony, because, do I lead, do I honestly lead, with my primary and essential part of my identity is, I belong to him?

And it’s like, I’m not Jew or Greek. I’m not a Carolina fan or a Duke fan, right? I’m not a Northerner or Southerner. I’m not a guy with a certain color skin. I’m male or female. I feel like that we often lead with so many things that are qualities of us, characteristics of us, even like things that we like and are good for our lives, even like the way we lead with things that we like to eat that associate us with a place of culture. Do I lead … verse 28 is really saying, “You are in me.”

Anthony: Yeah.

John: That’s your primary identity. And I think a big part of what we attempt to do as a ministry at Peterson House is like, can we not just be in the text together and immerse ourselves in it to really get what this is saying? So that it’s not like a posturing of, “I need you to know this about me, because that’s going to tell you more about who I am.” And I think it’s one thing if you’re not even a person of faith and you lead with any number of things of who you are. But it is such an indictment of me in the way I think about it, do I lead …? If someone says, “Hey, can you tell me a little bit about yourself, John?”

Anthony: Oh yeah.

John: I am tied inextricably to this person of Jesus. And my primary identity is defined, everything connected to that, and everything is subordinate to it. And I feel like for me when I hear this text read even again today is I’m hearing freedom, that you’re no longer those things that are definable about you, that you think are definable, but you like, you have been set free to be “in me.”

[00:49:31] Anthony: Yeah. And I wonder once again, if it’s pride that gets the best of us, that we want to put our identity in other things, when Christ is all sufficient. He is enough. And what does it look like today to be clothed by him?

And I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s just to identify with that, I am a beloved child of God. Not because of who I am, but because of who he is. Not because I’ve loved well, but because he’s loved well. And that is enough for me today and tomorrow …

[00:50:03] John: and all those other things separate us from one another.

Anthony: That’s right.

John: If God is going to say in God’s character, I’m not separating myself from you in the love of Christ Jesus, why in the world do we keep doing this with the way that we separate ourself from one another?

[00:50:17] Anthony: Amen. Amen.

John: And yeah, I think we just … and unfortunately when we do that …  we just don’t get the best of one another.

Anthony: That’s right. And that’s why I’ve held back from telling you I’m a Kentucky Wildcat fan. Because I didn’t want to cause division between brothers, John. Sorry.

[00:50:37] John: Touche. Yeah.

[00:50:40] Anthony: Our final pericope of the month is Galatians 5:1, 13–25.  It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 8, in ordinary time, which is June 29.

For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become enslaved to one another. ¹⁴ For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” ¹⁵ If, however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. ¹⁶ Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. ¹⁷ For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. ¹⁸ But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. ¹⁹ Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, ²⁰ idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, ²¹ envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. ²² By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, ²³ gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. ²⁴ And those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. ²⁵ If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit.

John, for me, freedom is one of those kinds of tricky words, because the definition …. Many attached to that word don’t look like freedom that we see in the Bible. Freedom does not mean we can do whatever we want, as the Scriptures testify, and yet Christ has truly set us free. So, what should Christians make of this Christological freedom?

[00:52:52] John: Yeah, I think when we often think of the word freedom, we feel like we’ve been loosed. We’ve been set free from something that bound us in some way. And the irony here is this Christological understanding of freedom, as I understand it, is still bound, right, but appropriately bound to finding our greatest freedom in tying ourself to our Savior Jesus. And I think we confuse and we kind of have these conversations around agency and around wanting to make sure that my opinions are being heard, that I feel like that that I matter in this world, that I’m not being crushed by someone else’s definition of me or having a stereotype of me, and I want to feel free. I feel like that is like a wonderful place to be. We even think of it within the context of our American history about what freedom means. But when we say we’re followers of Jesus, and we’re talking about freedom, what I hear here from Paul is, and it’s one of the biggest topics for Paul, bar none, right?

Anthony: Yes. Right.

John: And you, and I feel like you got to get it right. Be very careful to not lose yourself so much, to not tie yourself being obedient to the person of Jesus, not the one who will restrict you from who you are meant and created to be. But it is only in him where you will be free. Right?

Anthony: Yes.

John: And I feel like I’m, as I’m saying this, and I’m sitting here in the middle of it as we’re recording it, and I’m imagining when this is going to be.  People are trying to figure out what to preach on this summer, like in the heat of summer, where a lot of people aren’t even showing up to church. They’re on vacation; they’re all over the place. It’s what are, how are, we fooling ourselves to think the bill of goods that we’ve bought is something that makes me think that the freedom, total freedom is a good thing, when …

Anthony, I think as a parent of some young kids, I think total freedom can be crushing. And so, I think having a good understanding here of … we need to clarify what are we being freed from … the law, right? Freed from the impact of the first century culture, which would define me within a Greco-Roman context. Free me from the Judaizer controversy that is telling me I needed these other things. I need to be freed from that.

Like freedom does not pull me away from taking Jesus as I need him, but saying I want to be freed from these other things that are like barnacles, right?

Anthony: Yeah.

John: That are like these things under the boat. And I’ve cleaned them from my father-in-law’s boat before. And it stinks. It absolutely stinks, and you don’t want to have to do it, but you’re sitting there with a spackle knife chipping it all away to get to free the boat for it to be able to be used the way it’s intended to be used. It’s like I think about that image of what needs to be cut away for me to be the one who is designed by my God to be freed, to be in that kind of relationship with God in the first place.

[00:56:15] Anthony: Yeah. And under the inspiration of the Spirit. Paul understood the things that you think are free, these desires you have, they actually bring about bondage. And so, this freedom is real freedom. It’s freedom from death and sin, but it’s freedom for God and his good purposes for your life that will ultimately set you free and free indeed. It’s such a big topic. Anything else you’d want to say about it before we move on?

[00:56:42] John: Yeah. I think — and you may be going to another question here, but I may beat you to it — is when I hear this text of this freedom in Christ, this sort of relationship that I get that actually gives birth to a better way of living, like we think about the praxis of our faith. And I love … that’s one of the things that Eugene Peterson said a lot. He actually said, “I think this is livable. I actually think following Jesus is livable. You can do this stuff.”

Anthony: Yeah.

John: And we fool ourselves. And this … I don’t want to say the “we” is other people — I’m included in that. What is it about the works of the flesh, whether we call it impurity, debauchery, or any of the others — like even the good things that I turn into ultimate things, like when we think about Tim Keller and his counterfeit gods is like, why do I keep feeding myself these other things when they don’t satisfy me? When, if I live in communion with my Savior in a way that’s available to me, it produces something that is so dang gratifying.

Anthony: Yeah.

John: And it produces the fruits of the Spirit. Who doesn’t like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Maybe one there you could do without. I don’t know. But, it’s like, I think these fruits of the Spirit — this is a better way to live, that it’s not driven. And Anthony, I think, as a parent, what is it about the marketing of the things of the world that is fooling my children and others to believe that it will satisfy them?

And I see it all the time. I see it in people in my neighborhood when they’re trying to do any number of things to fix themselves, to heal themselves. And I’m just thinking to myself, there is only one thing that’s going to set you free from, and not just set you free to feel confident about your sort of salvific future, but really set you free to bear fruit in the world in these qualities of the Spirit that is so attractive.

That I just I think that comment of Eugene’s of, “Live this out a while, and you’ll find that it is far more satisfying than the temporary pleasure that any of those other things will give you. What will it take, for you to come over here to live by the Spirit?”

[00:59:05] Anthony: Yeah. And this is why just being converted is so important to have biblical literacy, because when I look at the fruit of the Spirit contained in verse 22, John, that stands in opposition to the world.

John: Yeah.

Anthony: Stands in opposition to a lot of voices clamoring for our attention, for your children’s attention. And this is why we have to keep coming back to Scripture time and time again to be fed by truth. Because the world doesn’t tell us to love your neighbor as yourself. Get yours. Yeah. And if that oppresses your neighbor, so be it. And we dress it up as accomplishment and winning sometimes. So, it’s, man, this is so important that we keep coming back to what Paul is communicating here, that this is what true freedom looks like.

[00:59:49] John: Yeah. With without a doubt. And Anthony, at the very end, it’s not just live by the Spirit. I love that it says, be guided by the Spirit.

[00:59:59] Anthony: The Spirit is with us. Lead us. Lead us, Lord. And it makes me think, and I wanted to get this in as we come to conclusion here, we’ve talked a lot about Eugene Peterson and he wrote a book called The Jesus Way. And I want to share a quote with you. It says, “The way of Jesus cannot be imposed or mapped. It requires an active participation in following Jesus as he leads us,” going back to what you just said, “as he leads us through sometimes strange and unfamiliar territory in circumstances that become clear only in the hesitations and questionings, in the pauses and reflections, when we engage in prayerful conversation with one another and with him, this is what the life is. This is the Christ life.”

John, I want to thank you for being with us.

John: My pleasure.

Anthony: Thank God for you. Thank God for your active participation in his ministry. I also want to thank our team just an outstanding podcast team, Michelle Hartman, Elizabeth Mullins, Reuel Enerio for the work that they do to make this possible. And to all of you as our listening audience.

John, thank you so much, and as is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we end with prayer. So, we’d love for you to pray for us.

[01:01:09] John: Lord, we’re grateful for who you are. So much of this message that inspires us in the gospel, Lord, it seems wild. It seems foolish. It seems crazy. It seems upside down.

And for those that are listening to this podcast who are invited either to find creative ways to teach it in the classroom, or to speak and be inspired by the Scripture from the pulpit, Lord, I pray that your Spirit would bless each of the listeners here. Those that are seeking a good word, Lord, that they would hear where you are guiding them by the power of your Holy Spirit to speak words confidently to those who are listening to them that are giving them their attention.

But Lord, I pray that has been true in my own life and I have been thankful for your character in the way that you have done this time and time again. But I pray that the listeners, those that you have entrusted to be those who are proclaiming your good news and doing their best to set the captives free to, to give them a new story to hold onto that really will set them free, that you will begin that freedom, Lord. And the one who is wrestling with Scripture in the first place, in the first step, to even get it to the next step of communicating it to someone else, Lord, would you stir in their hearts, would you remind them of the seeds that you have planted in them, the investment, the covenant, the invitation, Lord, the maranatha that we say, “Come, Lord Jesus,” be with them. Lord, we are confident that you will do far more than we ask or imagine. We pray this in the name of our Savior Jesus. Amen.

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Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!

Jared Neusch—Christian Pacifism

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

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Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. This is a bonus episode covering a topic and material, which is a deviation from our normal episodes. As always, Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights and commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Jared Neusch. Jared is a research assistant and project manager for the McDonald Agape Nicaea Project at St. Mellitus College. He earned a PhD in New Testament at King’s College in London, England. The topic of this bonus episode is Christian passivism.

Maybe said another way, we’re asking ourselves, does God reveal himself in the person and work of Jesus Christ to be a nonviolent God? And if so, what are the implications for followers of Christ? Let me say from the start, I know this is a controversial topic, which Christians have disagreed about and will continue to be in disagreement about — sometimes vehemently. You may find yourself pushing back on the content of this discussion, and that’s okay.

But let’s grapple with it together. I believe it’s important for mature Christians to listen and reason with theological impulse of those who embrace nonviolence as a way of God.

Grace Communion International is the denominational sponsor of the Gospel Reverb podcast. And by hosting this conversation, GCI is not endorsing Christian passivism. Full stop. And yet, as your host, I’m grateful to be a part of a denominational home willing to have challenging conversations like this one.

Now that we have that introduction behind us, let’s welcome our guest. Jared is joining Gospel Reverb podcast for the second time. So, welcome back, and I so thoroughly enjoyed our first conversation.

So, Jared, how are you doing these days?

[00:02:33] Jared: Oh, thanks so much for having me back. I really enjoyed our first conversation, so I was excited to get an invitation to come and talk a bit more. Yeah, thank you. It’s been a cold, cloudy England as you might expect. But the days are beginning to get a bit longer.

So, joy and hope are on the up and up here.

[00:02:53] Anthony: Joy and hope it is. And I hope you had a wonderful holiday season. This episode is going to come out in the first quarter of the year. And this is an important conversation for us to have.

And you and I, offline, talked a little bit about labels, and Christian pacifism can be a label.

So, I think it’s important when we define something as to say, okay, what is it? But also, what is it not? And Jared, what are some of the common misconceptions about Christian pacifism?

[00:03:23] Jared: Yeah. So, I guess just to start, it’s important to clarify that this is Christian pacifism. There is just pacifism, and it could just be a general abstinence from violence.

And this is not that. This is a view that is an attempt to follow Jesus, to follow his ways and his teaching. And then as a result, you wind up being nonviolent. So, it’s a devotion to Christ that then as a byproduct ends up being a pacifist.

That’s a bit of an early clarification in terms of what we mean by Christian pacifist. There are definitely many varieties and expressions of this, as there are with most views and stances.

The term pacifist comes from the Latin pax, which is “peace” and the second word, “doing.” So, it originally meant “peace doing,” which is an active concept. And that speaks to probably one of the biggest misconceptions about pacifism. It unfortunately sounds a bit like “passive,” although it’s spelled differently.

So, this is a common misconception that passivism means being passive. It means “doing.” And sure, there may be some pacifists who are passive, but I would argue that’s not a fair representation of Christian pacifism in as much as we think Christ was passive. To address that thought that if you’re not violent, you’re passive, it’s quite a revealing notion. It shows that our imaginations can be a bit limited when we think, well, if we’re not violent, we’re doing nothing. And that’s certainly not the case.

So, just to say what it is, I would say it’s a brave and active lifestyle. It is active in the sense that it resists evil. It resists the sword. It pursues justice. It loves the friend and the enemy. And in doing all of the above, it actively lays down its life.

So, I like to think of the image of the good Samaritan, sometimes to help make sense of pacifism. Some imagine Christian pacifist as the Levite and the priest who passed the injured person on the road and in their moral purity, they’re unable to get their hands dirty with blood.

So, if that person that’s injured represents a violent conflict, it’s like we can’t do that. So, we avoid conflict because we have this ethical standard that keeps us from doing that. So, we skirt to the side of the road when other people have to get the real stuff done.

But rather I would say that the Christian pacifist is the one who stops gets down with the injured party. Puts their own life at risk and their resources by doing so. In short, I’d say it’s an attempt to engage with and to overcome evil without attempting to achieve it via the sword.

[00:07:01] Anthony: Well said. So, I’m curious how and where from the New Testament, does one draw a nonviolent ethic?

[00:07:12] Jared: Wow. Well for me, I guess once you’re open to the possibility that this is a natural result of following Christ, it’s been my experience that you then can’t unsee it dominating the New Testament.

I’ve found that the question can be a bit more easily flipped on its head. Rather than: what New Testament evidence is there for not killing your enemies? You could almost more easily ask, what New Testament evidence is there for killing your enemies? But it’s still a very good question.

So, let’s do look at what evidence there is for nonviolence. As I said, there’s a lot so I won’t go on and on, in case Anthony is afraid he’s going to read Matthew 1 through the end of Revelation. But just to flag a few.

Predictably, it’s probably a great place to start in one of the most famous pieces of text, Matthew 5 to 7 the Sermon on the Mount. So, he begins his sermon on the kingdom with a list of types of people who are blessed. So, in a conflict, going through this list of “blessed are this person, this person,” when you think in terms of a conflict, it’s really no mystery on which side of the sword Jesus envisions his community.

So, he sees them as the peacemakers, those who are mourning, those who are merciful, those who are meek, those who are persecuted. So, you see, okay, he’s anticipating the people in the kingdom are going to be intense situations where there’s conflict. And he lists those who are blessed and it’s all those who are persecuted and those who are mourning and those who are meek and those who were merciful.

So, it starts off with a real bang there. And then when you get deeper into chapter 5 — very famous — verses 38 and 39, “You’ve heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say, do not resist an evildoer.” That’s a big line.

And then he goes on. “But if anyone strikes you in the right cheek, turn the other also.” And he gives some subversive examples that we can sink our teeth into. He then says a bit later, “You have heard it said, you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven.”

And he says some powerful stuff there, which I won’t get into now, but basically, he says, this is what God does, and you can look at the weather, the rain, and the sunshine and how it doesn’t really favor anyone. This is how he loves his enemies. So, if you want to look like God, you do this too. You love everyone. So, that’s really powerful at the end of chapter 5.

Matthew 26, in a heroic effort to save Jesus from arrest, Peter jumps in and swings his sword and cuts off the ear of the high priest’s slave. And after telling him to put away his sword, Jesus issues a really powerful proverb on violence.

And he says, first of all, “Put that away.” And then he says, “All who take the sword will die by the sword or who live by it, will die by it,” depending on your translation. So, that’s a real key moment in the gospel in terms of one of the main moments of conflict and power meeting power. And Jesus utters that statement about the sword.

John 18:36, as Jesus stood before Pilate, he’s questioned on being handed over and called King of the Jews. And he says something really enlightening about his followers. He says, “hey, my kingdom doesn’t belong to this world. If it did, if my kingdom did belong to this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over. But as it is, my kingdom isn’t from here. So, we don’t organize and grab swords and fight in this way to protect our king. Because my kingdom isn’t from this place, we do things differently.” [paraphrased]

Lastly, I’ll just turn to Paul — as I’m a Pauline guy, I’ve got touch on Paul here. So, for Paul, he spends time reflecting on his past, and in a couple of places in his letters, he specifically reflects on being a violent man in his past. And then, of course, in this apocalyptic event, he meets Jesus.

And what I’ve always found interesting is rather than keeping the sword but now fighting for Jesus and saying, “Oh, I was pointed in the wrong direction, but I’m turning this way and now let’s rally the troops and fight for the slain Lamb,” instead of doing that, he immediately becomes a nonviolent martyr, begins to boast in his sufferings, and he boasts in his weakness.

So, he takes on the cruciformity of his leader. So, we really see that tangible shift in the testimony and in the life of Paul.

So, there’s so much New Testament textual data, I think, to support the idea of peaceful, enemy love. One of the ways I’ve started asking this, when I’ve discussed it with people, is if we’re to wipe the slate clean and pretend Jesus didn’t really say or teach or do anything, what would Jesus have to do or say to communicate that we aren’t supposed to kill our enemies, if we needed to just think, “what would he need to do and say?” And I think you end up realizing he did command it, and then he demonstrated it. And then we see his followers, directly after him, doing the same thing.

So, I’d say there’s a lot of reasons to find it in the New Testament.

[00:13:38] Anthony: And thinking that through, Jesus often said, ‘Well, you’ve heard it’s been said, or it’s been told, and, but I tell you, the truth …”

This is going to help frame what I’m going to ask you next, because for somebody that maybe takes a different posture on this topic, they’re going, okay, Jared, you got some New Testament reference. Good job. But what about all the violence in the Old Testament? Or you’ve got to teach the whole Bible, right?

So, I know that is a common pushback. So, what say you about that violence? What we might label as “divine violence” of the Old Testament.

[00:14:18] Jared: Yes, yes. I mean, this is a question we should be asking. It’s a very important one, and I think if we don’t notice a tension here between the message on divine violence in the Old Testament and then what we see in the New, if we don’t notice a tension here, in my view, I don’t think we’re being completely honest with ourselves. Not to say that if you don’t see a tension, you’re being dishonest. But I think when you read the New Testament, and you read the Sermon on the Mount, and you follow the life of Jesus, and then you read some of these Old Testament stories, I think you just do sense some real tension there.

So, this is a question, I think, a lot of us came to. Whether it was in a course in our undergrad or in sermons in church or just reading the Bible on our own, I think many of us do come across this. So, I’ll give obviously a very short answer because this is not a 10-hour podcast. I know. I think we would lose everyone.

But I mean, just to say, there’s so much here that I’m going to acknowledge from the go that my — I won’t even say “answer” — my next statements will be unsatisfactory because I taught a course in Germany on this, and it was like 15 lectures.

And even then, it was just broad overviews of different views and things, so there’s really so much that could be explored here. But I’ll just say a few general things.

Now, I won’t repeat all the content I went through when you had me on the podcast to talk about Hebrews but to link those two at the beginning of Hebrews and John, both of those biblical authors tell us some pretty massive things about Jesus and how to understand him.

So, these authors basically say that God has spoken to us through various mediums over time, but now he speaks to us most clearly and most definitively through his son, Jesus Christ who was close to his heart and has made him known. The New Testament is pretty explicit about Jesus being the definitive self-revelation of the Father.

Yes, there have been revelations. There have been words and prophecies, and these are all valuable. And they aren’t rendered null at all. However, there’s a bit of a mic drop in the Incarnation when the Father reveals himself through the Son by the Spirit.

This is meant to be the ultimate revelation of himself, and so most people would say, yes and amen. But the obvious byproduct of this is that other revelations then must be deemed less definitive. If you have one that is the definitive one, then others have to be less definitive. And one way I like to say it is that Jesus is the highest resolution image of God that we have.

Therefore, other images in comparison to Jesus are going to, by nature, have varying levels of blurriness to them. So, I think it’s our hermeneutical responsibility, as followers of Jesus, to then make sure that we base our notions of God in his self-revelation in Christ.

So, once we have the character and heart of God now solidified in Christ, the cement has dried on “here’s what God is like,” then and only then, are we free (and I’d say safe) to begin to read other revelations of God and read the Old Testament stories once we know for sure with certainty that Jesus shows us what he’s like. Because it’s a critical piece. We can’t then read Jesus, read the Sermon on the Mount, read the cross, read these letters, and then doubt that because of what we read in Genesis or Exodus or Leviticus and say, “Sure, Jesus commands this, but Exodus says this and this.”

There is a necessary order in terms of interpretation, and Jesus shows us that. It doesn’t cancel out the other revelations at all, but it does set the record straight of what to do when there appear to be opposing ideas. There is a hermeneutical order and a method to it.

[00:19:18] Anthony: Well said.

[00:19:19] Jared: Yeah, so. I won’t get very specific, but when it comes to Old Testament divine violence, there are some really great interpretive theories out there. I haven’t developed any original ones of my own. I’m just eating off of everyone else’s table. But we can go back to Origen, if we want the church father and in light of the revelation of Christ, he reads some of the extreme violence in the Old Testament, and he reads those as allegory. He says, “Now that I’ve seen Jesus, I read Joshua.” And he spiritualizes the stories to draw principles for the Christian life now.

And he wasn’t really concerned with, Oh, no, but does that mean this happened exactly this way? The historicity questions are more of a modern thing. And he was just more focused on, all right, well, Jesus has shown us this; so, how can I still read this scripture and get value from stories where there’s intense violence?

There are other contemporary views and readings I can think of one like Greg Boyd. He sees these stories as cruciform images where he points to the cross and says, hey, on the cross, God was willing to take on our ugliness. And he was willing to appear as a criminal for our sakes. And this wasn’t just a onetime moment. This was what God has always been willing to do, and he has always done. So, he’s been willing to take on our ugliness through stories throughout history, to look criminal, to look violent, to look these ways to accommodate and to love and to be with us in this journey. [paraphrased]

So, there’s Boyd, which many people don’t like that. Many people do like it, but it’s just an example that there are lots of views on how to best understand the Old Testament. But the key is the guiding principle, which is you need to keep your feet firmly planted on what on God’s self-revelation in Christ And from that point, if you have question marks, you don’t place them on stories of Jesus. If you have question marks, you place them in the other stories, because we have certainty about what God is like through his self-revelation in Christ.

[00:21:49] Anthony: I’m just curious, and I know this is off the hand, but if people were looking for resources, books to read that further their study on how to rightly interpret hermeneutically the Old Testament in light of Jesus, do you have any? One or two recommendations, Jared, that people could dive into.

[00:22:12] Jared: Yeah. Let me think. So, one of the things I’ve done in a course was I pit two different contemporary views on Old Testament violence against each other. And these guys have talked on a podcast before, and they’ve had some great discussions. And it’s all friendly.

And I have [the students] read these two opposing views, and that’s a great mental exercise, I think. So, the Boyd one I referenced. There’s either the big two-volume version, if you’re really committed. It’s called Crucifixion of the Warrior God. And again, that’s two volumes. It’s quite a big read.

He has then come out with a popular level book, I think called Cross Vision, again by Greg Boyd, that I think is a nutshell of the two-volume book.

But on the other side of things, someone who is skeptical of Boyd’s view but is also a serious biblical scholar, is a book by Matthew Lynch called Flood and Fury. And he tries to reread the most violent pieces, which is the flood and then, some of the pieces from the Canaanite genocide, and then says, how do we read these in light of what we know to be true about a loving God?

So, those are two books that I think could be useful if you wanted to have a bit of a spectrum there.

[00:23:50] Anthony: Yeah, that’s excellent. Thank you for that. We’ll put those two works or three works, if you will, including the double set in the show notes.

And I want to go back. You mentioned you’re a Pauline guy. So, let’s go back to Paul for a moment. What would you say about a pericope like Romans 13:1-7? And if you’ll accommodate me for just a moment. I want to read it, so our listeners have the context of what it says. It says,

Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. ² So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. ³ For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. ⁴ The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. ⁵ So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.

⁶ Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do. ⁷ Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them, and give respect and honor to those who are in authority.

In light of that, what would you say about this passage?

[00:25:21] Jared: Well, I wish Paul hadn’t written that last bit about taxes.

[00:25:28] Anthony: That’s one we get all agreement on. Well done. Universal agreement from the audience.

[00:25:33] Jared: Yeah. No, I’m really glad you’ve raised this text because if there is a text that is most commonly used for just war theory in the New Testament, it’s this one. And “just war theory” is, in short, people setting up a set of criteria for what makes war just. And the idea is that war obviously isn’t good inherently, and it shouldn’t happen; there are certain things that ultimately would make it the just choice.

So, this is a text that’s used quite commonly for that one. This text has been used by nations across the world for years and years. It’s an interesting fact that both the Nazis and the Allies used Romans 13 to get their nation’s support for the war.

Now some of the issues with people citing Romans 13:1–7, as an argument for why national war violence is justified is that they don’t read in Romans the eight preceding verses. So, Romans 12:14–21, Paul says starting in verse 14:

¹⁴ Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. ¹⁵ Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. ¹⁶ Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

¹⁷ Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. ¹⁸ If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. ¹⁹ Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. ²⁰ On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

And the final verse before you get to chapter 13 is

 ²¹ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

And it’s not funny, but there is some irony that when this pericope is cited there. No one’s ever going to cite the seven verses prior because it doesn’t tend to strengthen your argument for national violence, but even though it is a …

[00:28:23] Anthony: It is a letter with continuous thought, right? Paul doesn’t just stop at a chapter heading to rethink it. No, it’s a continuous thought

[00:28:33] Jared: Exactly and so, the thought would be that in chapter 12 in 14–21, he tells the church, he tells kingdom people how they’re supposed to respond to enemies.

So, bless your persecutors, live in harmony with people, do not repay anyone evil for evil. Live peaceably with all, never avenge yourself, feed your enemies if they’re hungry. Give your enemies something to drink if they’re thirsty; do not respond to evil with evil but overcome it with good. This is how the community of Jesus overcomes evil. It’s with good.

And then when you get into chapter 13, it’s all right, the state will overcome evil with the sword.

Now there are a couple of words to draw out here. Paul uses the Greek word tasso which is often translated as established, ordained, or instituted. Right. So, it says there’s no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been “tassoed” by God. They’ve been put in place. And you can almost imagine with that word, world leaders standing before God and God lays his sword on their shoulder and appoints them. But this raises issues.

I won’t even start listing infamous world leaders of the past who we don’t like to imagine God appointing or putting in place. But some have helpfully pointed out that this term can have the connotation of filing something, like books. So, the view here would be that God isn’t creating governments to be violent; it’s more so that he finds them to be violent. Governments are going to do what governments are going to do.

But Paul is saying, God is at work in these governments as best he can to bring about order and to help curb sin, et cetera. So, God isn’t using the sword, but as this is something that governments will use. It may be that God will steer it in the direction of justice at times.

So, in the same way, God delivered his Son (and he was in the Son) the Son was delivered over to the powers of darkness and baited death in the grave into swallowing Jesus and being destroyed from the inside out, God is still working to bring about good from evil in the world. So, evil will continue to do its thing.

Nations will continue to use the sword. I mean, they must in a world like this. So, God’s going to organize things for the best good to come out of evil. So, that’s, I think, a key word there, tasso.

And if I could maybe just unpack one more word. “Let every person be — and it’s hupotasso, which is to be subject to the governing authorities — for there was no authority except from God.” And the idea when people read this word, “let everyone be subject” is like, hey, if my government says you’ve got to go do this, well, Paul tells me in Romans 13, I must be subject to them.

So, there’s this idea of absolute obedience there. The trick is there are many Greek words out there that Paul has for obedience. And he doesn’t use them here. Something that a good friend of mine — he’s a political theologian, Stephen Backhouse, he says about Romans 13. He wrote an article on it in conversation with J.H. Yoder and others, he says, “Paul’s command is not for Christians to obey but to humbly submit to the authorities. The one who refuses to fight for Caesar but who still allows Caesar to punish him has been disobedient but has remained subordinate.”

So, rather than obeying every whim of an evil empire, submission means that Christians will be at odds with their nation, but they can peaceably accept persecution there. This is a way of them not revolting and fighting back. But we mirror the path of Christ and his response to Rome.

[00:33:16] Anthony: As I’m listening to you, Jared — and by the way, just the generosity of which you speak is appealing to me. And I’m wishing it was a 10-hour podcast so we could go further because it feels like we’re just barely scratching the itch and there’s so much more to get to. But that’s well said.

And as we’ve already alluded to, the label Christian pacifism, a nonviolent ethic, those can be fighting words (pun intended) for Christians. So, I’m curious, what would you say to Christ followers who are currently in the military or police, where violent acts can not only be a way of life, or the potential of violence be right around the corner? To those who love God but are actively serving in these capacities? What would you say to them?

[00:34:15] Jared: Yeah, great question, Anthony. To begin, I wouldn’t ever want to issue a statement in broad generalities. Here’s what I’ll say to every soldier and every police officer because everyone’s story and everyone’s journey and everyone’s intentions and everyone’s process is very unique.

There just simply are corrupt people who do great evils in the military and the police force. And then there are kind-hearted, lovely, merciful peacemakers who are followers of Jesus in the military and the police force. And that’s just a fact. I do know of people in the force who are on the journey.

And I’ve had some lovely interactions online with a few of them. Just honestly, some people who’ve really impacted me with anecdotes they’ve sent me of being on the force but dabbling in this idea of Christian pacifism and loving their enemies. They’ve been so kind to let me into their process. They’ve been exploring what it looks like to follow the way of Christ and serve in these capacities. And they’ve fed me a couple of cruciform anecdotes of how they can, creatively de-escalate situations, stopping violence from occurring and things like that.

And again, my view would just be that wherever someone is, whether they’re considering military or police, or whether they’re already in it or whether on the outside of it, I just think we need to be looking at Jesus and trying to be more like him. So, always moving in that direction and just going, whatever line of work I’m in — I mean, goodness, if you’re someone who rejects violence, but you’re working for a corporation that’s destroying the planet?

Few people can point fingers at others because of the issues in the world and systemic sin and we’re all interconnected in the various fields, in the ways we consume things and harm others around the world that we don’t even know. So just to say, I think all of us just have the responsibility to try and take steps to move closer and closer to the way of Christ. And if that means constantly, creatively looking for ways to reduce violence, then I tip my hat and say, well done; that’s great.

So, I think that’s the general approach I would take to people.

[00:37:05] Anthony: Yeah. That’s well said. And it made me think of a statement I read from Martin Luther King, and this was a while back, so I’m just going to loosely paraphrase it, but he talked about how there is the external physical violence. And we want to as much as possible avoid that, but there’s also the internal violence of the spirit So, we can refuse to shoot a man, but are we refusing to hate that man?

And just like you alluded to, whether it’s corporations doing harm and violence to the planets or other ways in which violence is perpetrated, this is where we all have to check ourselves internally. What are we about and how far does this ethic take us to look at what’s going on within us?

So, I’m curious, and I’m sure you get asked this a lot with the fact that you’re public about promoting Christian pacifism or a nonviolent God. Are there any circumstances that could arise where physical violence, in your mind, is justified and necessary?

[00:38:13] Jared: Again, a good question.

And yeah, it is a pretty common one because it’s valid and it’s fair. I think there’s a distinction I would want to make here. There’s an important difference between the question, when would I, Jared Neusch, be violent? And then, where do I get biblical justification from Jesus to kill my enemies?

To the latter, I haven’t found any yet. So, I don’t have a situation that I could outline and say, from following Jesus and looking at his life, I feel confident killing my enemy in situation X.

But when we talk about me, what I would do. I think I don’t know that I would always have the courage to choose enemy love. I hope that I would, but I don’t know that I would.

And I think that the situation people like to bring in — not out of any sort of bad place but understandably — they say, “You’ve got kids, and you’ve got a wife,” and things like that. And how and when would you be violent?

And I think it’s a great question. And no one knows unless you’re in a tough part of the world where you do know what you’ll do in tough situations. But I think it’s important to remember that violence is not — how do I word this? It’s not a predictable, sure thing. Let’s just say, oh, to protect person X, that’s when I would choose to be violent.

Violence inherently spirals, and it builds, and it often leads to more violence. So, choosing violence is not the backstop safe choice to protect the people you love or something like that. Often violence begets violence. It’s not a sure thing. So, I don’t have that as a, okay, this is the cheat code that I would use in situation X.

To me, it’s as much, if not more, of a risk than loving your enemy. So, that would be a bit of an answer to that good question.

[00:40:53] Anthony: I think where we can settle is war is not the answer.

[00:40:58] Jared: Yeah.

[00:40:59] Anthony: It’s just not. I was recently watching a Ken Burns documentary on the Civil War here in the United States, and one on the Holocaust and — not exactly uplifting things to watch. But it just struck me again. It’s not like it was the first time, but it was just a powerful reminder. It’s not the answer.

And I know that people are in very violent places. And I think what you just said is a humble way of communicating it. We just don’t know what we would do in a circumstance. And if we’re facing it as a reality, we’re just thankful that the kingdom of God does not look like that. And it is the right side up kingdom, and the empires of this world stand in stark contrast to that. And I pray for people that are living in, with violence being a way of life. I just can’t imagine.

So, let’s get practical here, Jared, how does someone live out a nonviolent ethic as a follower of Jesus in the day to day? Like what does that look like to really, truly embrace this?

[00:42:16] Jared: Yeah. I do think about this, and I take this quite seriously that I am, just as you’ve alluded to, I’m public with this. And I am teaching this very radical message of Jesus, at least as I see it as his message.

And yet in that, I’m not someone who faces the risk of violence on a daily basis; it’s not lost on me that I’m in a comfortable position taking this view. So, that’s why I don’t communicate these principles to or at people in these tough violent situations. So, while I wouldn’t get online and post from the comfort of my home in cozy West Sussex that Ukraine shouldn’t defend themselves, and they should follow the way of Jesus. You’ll never see something like that from me, and I don’t think you should from anyone.

What I would do, and I do, is I criticize and hold to account the global superpower that I was born in. And should we be arming World leader X with more weapons? No. Should we be exercising capital punishment? No. Should we be arming our citizens with more and more guns to be safe against more and more guns? No, I don’t think so.

So, that tends to be where I point most of my energy is systems and people who are the oppressor and who are perpetuating violence rather than telling people on the receiving end, “You need to take up your cross and be more peaceful.”

You never want to be in that spot. So, I think living this out for me, one of the ways is speaking truth to major perpetuators of systems of violence in the world who also, and this is critical, who also claim to follow the way of Christ, saying, “We are Christians.” And then pushing forward war and supplying weapons and things like that. That’s a big problem. So, I really feel like that’s something I need to speak out against.

And then second, you mentioned practically. I think we just move more and more towards the ways of peacemaking and enemy love any time we can love people that are difficult to love. So, that is the smallest things. It can be buying a coffee for someone who’s having really bad temper in a store, or it can be just absolutely anything.

It doesn’t have to be that violence is involved, but what we’re trying to form in our heart is a love for all people and a love — it’s very easy to love your friends. Jesus tells us this. He says, I’m not impressed by that; even the tax collector and scribes, they do that. No big deal. What matters is, can you love your enemies?

That’s what sets us apart. Everyone can love their clique, their in group, their crowd. That’s no big deal. But what we want to be constantly trying to form in our heart is a love for all people, a love for our enemy. So, to me, it’s just looking for moments, whether it’s just internal or external, and you can practically do something trying to move towards love of these people.

Because it’s, it’s all the same currency when you’re loving someone. Some moments are pocket change of that currency, and you’re just doing something small. But in some moments, for some people, it may be paying in large bills, enemy love, and it’s costing your life or your job or something like that.

But I think just looking for moments, whether it’s with our words, our money, our actions to love those that are difficult to love, those who we don’t want to. So, that’s probably the most practical thing to try and foster on a day-to-day basis.

[00:46:46] Anthony: Jared, I live in Durham, North Carolina and Duke Divinity School is in my backyard. And we recently lost Richard Hays, a great New Testament scholar.

And I think I saw that you posted recently after his death that he was quite influential in your thought process about this subject. Is there a resource you could refer our audience to from Richard that might be beneficial to the reading?

[00:47:14] Jared: Oh, I’m so glad you asked. Yes. I don’t know if you can hear it in the audio, but I’m smiling as soon as you brought him up because wow, he is such an important figure. And it really made me sad to hear of his passing.

But there is a book that, if anyone doesn’t just like the Facebook comment thread debates on violence, but actually is in it for serious critical thinking discussions on Scripture, the way of Jesus and ethics, and wants to investigate: is this a message of the New Testament?

Is this a part of following Christ? There’s no book I can recommend more than Richard’s Hays book, The Moral Vision of the New Testament. I will warn listeners that on the spectrum of ultra popular level to really unapproachable academic work, it leans slightly more towards the academic side.

So, you really want to have your thinking cap on, and you want to be ready for some scholarly rigor. But he really goes through and shows you the moral vision of the New Testament and spoiler alert: it’s not violent. That’s not the only thing he uncovers, but it’s one of the main ones, and I found it to be a really helpful book.

[00:48:56] Anthony: Yeah, I have friends that studied under Richard Hays, and they just have such admiration, devotion, and his rigorous process of biblical scholarship is something they hold in high regard, so I think that’s going to be an excellent reference.

And one of the things I appreciate about you, Jared, as a New Testament scholar, you also tend to have a way of speaking that’s accessible to people and I think that’s really important. So, if someone’s listening to this podcast and thinks, man I really would like to dialogue a little bit more and maybe talk with Jared about this, would you be okay providing a way to get in contact with you, Jared?

[00:49:38] Jared: Yeah, of course. Probably one of the easiest ways is the way of social media right now. So, you can find me on Instagram just at Jared Neusch. And I try not to be on there too often because I want to have decent mental health. But it is a platform where people are talking and listening, so I do try and communicate on there at times.

So, that is one place you can find me, but also if you just Google me, you’ll see where I work, and I think it provides my work email as well. If you want to reach out like that, that’s totally fine. But I’m always up for good hearted conversation on this topic, I think it’s really important.

[00:50:34] Anthony: And for those of you that may not see his name in front of you, Jared’s first name is spelled J A R E D (D as in David), and his last name is spelled N (as in Nancy) E U S C H. And as he mentioned, you can find him on Insta or just Google his name.

And listeners, I wanted to leave you with food for thought from Charles Spurgeon, the great English preacher who said:

The Church of Christ is continually represented under the figure of an army; yet its Captain is the Prince of Peace; its object is the establishment of peace, and its soldiers are men of a peaceful disposition. The spirit of war is at the extremely opposite point to the spirit of the gospel.

Jared, I’m so grateful for you. Thank you for coming back. And I also want to thank our team of people who make this podcast possible, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. It’s so great to have a wonderful team of people to do this with.

Jared, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, sir. And it’s our custom to end with prayer. So, if you’re willing Jared, would you please pray for us?

[00:51:47] Jared: Sure. Well, first of all, thank you. It’s such a treat to be here and to have this conversation with you. But yeah, let me pray.

Jesus, thank you for this time to discuss the ways of how we overcome evil; how do we treat our enemies; what does it look like to follow the way of Jesus. I thank you for this crew that is doing this podcast for Anthony and the team and for all the good they’re doing. And I just pray for the team, myself, but also all the listeners just that your Spirit would continue to speak to us, to lead us, and ultimately form us into more mature disciples of you.

That’s the ultimate goal is to be formed by you, to look like you, and to follow you. So, I just ask this, and I thank you for this time. In your name, Amen.

[00:52:41] Anthony: Amen.

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Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!

Discipleship and Christian Ethics Pt 2 w/ Dr. Dennis Hollinger

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

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Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this next episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we continue with our ethics miniseries with our guest, Dr. Dennis Hollinger. Today we’re going to be exploring the connection, the integration, the dynamic between Christian ethics and the life of a disciple, of discipleship. And so, I really appreciate you joining us again today, Dr. Hollinger. And we are looking forward to learning from you again.

Dennis: Thank you so much, Cara. It’s a joy to again be with you, and with your listeners.

Cara: Absolutely. So, from our first conversation, one of the things that I took away is, especially when you outline this as actions and character or aspects of ethics, is I can’t help but think about that’s, well, the shaping of our character, our actions is part of the life of a disciple, right? And that process of discipleship.

And so, I’m curious. Does Christian ethics have to do with the daily living, the day-to-day of being a disciple of Jesus?

[00:01:56] Dennis: That’s such a significant, important question. Thank you, Cara. Maybe it’s helpful if I start with just defining what we mean by discipleship. What is a disciple?

Jesus in the Great Commission said, “Go, or as you go, disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you.” And then a great promise, of course, comes at the end. “And lo, I am with you always till the end of the world.”

And so, the Great Commission is not to go out and make converts. It’s to make disciples. What is a disciple? I think a disciple, we understand it best, is a person who has come to Christ through faith in Christ, who’s experienced salvation and redemption in Christ, and as a result now is called to follow Christ in all arenas of life.

That means to follow Christ in our relationships, in our business if we’re in the business world, in our communities, in our churches, in our ministries, whatever we’re called to. And so, I think that when we think about a disciple a disciple is one who follows Christ. And that of course impacts the way we live.

[00:03:19] Cara: Yes, thank you. I think that is a great place to start. And can you give us some maybe examples of what this might look like in the day-to-day life of the disciple?

[00:03:32] Dennis: Yeah. I like to think of our Christian living or being a disciple as having three components, what I call the head, the heart, and the hands. And I wrote a book on about this some years ago, really, called Head, Heart, and Hands: Bringing Together Christian Thought, Passion, and Action. It’s interesting that there are a lot of Christians and there are a lot of Christian movements or denominations that accentuate one of these over the other, sometimes almost to the exclusion of others.

And let me just unpack that for us. There are some Christians who are primarily people of the head. What is discipleship for them? Well, it’s simply knowing if I have enough knowledge of the Bible, enough knowledge of Christian doctrines and theology, then I’ll be good disciple of Christ. So, when they go to a church, what do they go to church for? It’s to fill their minds. The head.

And then there are others that are primarily people of the heart. And these are people when they think about the Christian life and discipleship, think of their emotions and their will, their inner self. And a good Christian, a good disciple is one whose heart is experiencing the reality of God.

And oftentimes it’s best exemplified by, I’m moved in some way inwardly. So, these people, when they go to church, they want worship and they want sermons that move their heart, not their heads, but their heart, their inner self.

And then you have the hands people and these are the folks who say, no, the Christian life, being a disciple, is about doing in the world. And you have two components of this in a sense, two varieties of the hands Christians. You have those who emphasize the proclamation of the gospel, and you have others who say though our actions are really about our social ministries, our caring for the poor, our ministries, and actions of justice in the world.

Now what I contend is that all three of these are vitally important and they all go together. And so, the head is important. How we think is part of being a disciple. And so, our understanding of scripture, our understanding of theology, our Christian worldview is vital to being a disciple and it’s vital to Christian ethics and particularly as we talked about in the first episode.

The heart component is vitally important. We’re to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind. The inner self needs to be shaped if we’re going to be a disciple and if we’re going to live the Christian ethical life.

And then the hands are vitally important. We are to be doers of the word, and that involves, I think, both the proclamation of the gospel, but also involves our ministries of service, our ministries of care, our ministries of justice in the midst of a hurting world.

And the way I like to think about this, Cara, is that they each actually impact the others. We don’t get our theology, our heads straight just by mind alone. I think our hearts and even our actions in the world help shape our thinking. And our heart, we don’t get our hearts right, just by attending to our emotions, our inner self. Our thinking shapes that. Our actions shape that.

And our hands likewise are shaped by our head and our heart. So, I like to think of all three of these coming humming together to form what is a disciple. And all three of these then are vital in Christian ethics. Christian ethics isn’t just about my hands and what I do. It incorporates that to be sure, but it’s also good to reflect what I believe, what I fill my mind with. It’s going to also reflect my heart, my inner self, and that inner union with Christ and with the Holy Spirit.

[00:07:47] Cara: Thank you. Thank you. Yes. And I, again, I think that this is, I don’t want to say the word model, but maybe an approach where we’re being invited into kind of this broader perspective, more holistic approach to discipleship, and Christian ethics has to do with that. And having that — the threefold, the head, heart, and hands — I think is a really helpful thing to even just keep in mind.

Dennis: Yeah.

Cara: As we’re living, and being, shaped as disciples. And so, one of the things in GCI that is really important for us in terms of ministry practice is the idea of healthy church rhythms and the development of healthy leadership.

[00:08:34] Dennis: Yeah.

[00:08:35] Cara: And so, when we think about, ministry practices and the primary audience of our podcast today are people who are involved in ministry participation leadership in their local church contexts. So, how does this relationship between ethics and discipleship that incorporates head, hearts, and hands, how does it inform the development of a healthy ministry leader specifically?

[00:09:01] Dennis: Yeah, that, that’s so vital today, Cara. I’m glad you’re raising this. I think we have to understand. People follow leaders.

Leadership is vital, not just in the church, but in the corporate world and the business world and the political world, in all arenas of life. Leadership is vital because people by nature follow leaders. It is interesting, if you go way back in history and the philosopher Aristotle, one of the first things he talked about in political leadership was character.

Why? Aristotle who was a pagan philosopher — this is not a Christian — said it’s important, because leaders shape the tone of a society, of a country, of a government, if you will. And this is so vital in the church. I think we know that in recent years we’ve had some very sad stories of leaders who failed in leadership, who failed in leadership over ethics.

And a lot of times, and this goes back to our last podcast where we talked about money, sex, and power. These are some of the greatest abuses of power and leadership. The abuse of money, the abuse of sex, the abuse of power, and we’ve had lots of those abuses. And so, I think what we recognize here is if the church is to be healthy in all arenas the leadership needs to be healthy as well.

And that gets back to Christian ethics and discipleship. Then, I think for example, of a passage like 1 Timothy 3, where we have a list of the characteristics of church leaders. Let me just read that, because I think it’s important for all of us to hear this, that leadership isn’t just about charisma; leadership isn’t just about my capabilities of helping a group of people achieve their mission, what they’ve set out as their stated mission. Leadership is also about my character, and my actions, which as we pointed out the last time, is really at the heart of ethics. And what we’re saying here today is also very much part of leadership.

Let me just read, if I may, Cara, the passage of 1 Timothy 3:1–10, please.

Here’s a trustworthy saying. Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness. Not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome. Not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. For if anyone doesn’t know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s ….

And then the next couple verses, 8–10, go on to describe deacons, a second level of leadership in the church. They’re to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine and not pursuing dishonest gain. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience.

And so, what I find so fascinating in this passage in Timothy about leadership, it’s not just about our beliefs. It’s not just that we’ve got our doctrines down pat. It’s in. And it’s not just that we’re having our devotions regularly and praying regularly, it’s also our character and our actions that reflect the reality of Christ in our lives.

And that I think is so vital for a healthy church today. Healthy leadership is so important, so that in specific churches, when you are choosing leaders in the church, not just pastors, but other lay leaders as well; yes, they must be committed to the theology and the statements that you have as a church. But they all … you also need to look at what kind of people are they, what kind of respect have they garnered in the church, in their community, in their world. I think that’s so vital today, if the church is really to maintain faithfulness.

[00:14:03] Cara: Yes. Thank you. And again, I feel really compelled by naming that it’s more than just maybe … we can tend towards what do we believe? Or what are our competencies and things like that. Those are pieces of the puzzle. But to really bring things all together — head, hearts, hands — who are we in character and action, I think really invites and challenges us, right, into a deeper, more meaningful space.

And so, I’m just wondering as we look to wrap up this episode, what would you say to our listeners who are maybe wanting to become more intentional in this aspect of this leadership formation? Where do you start with this more holistic intentional approach?

[00:14:57] Dennis: I think we have a tendency to want to do it alone. And one of the things I would say is we really do need each other. If we’re going to have head, heart, and hands together, it’s not just my own journey, it’s our journey together. And I think a sense of accountability with others is vitally important.

And I’ll just give this story kind of in closing that may be helpful. This past summer I was invited to do a series of lectures in Nigeria on corruption and Christian ethics. And I did this in two different cities, a whole different series, eight different lectures in each series.

It was business leaders. It was some political leaders. It was church leaders. It was some people in the medicine field. And unfortunately, in this country of Nigeria, there is a great deal of corruption, an incredible amount of corruption. And one of the things I discerned while I was there and talking to folks is, it’s found its way into the church.

There are people who get leadership, positions, by paying bribes. And all kinds of stories of corruption that I heard, not just in politics, and not just out in the business and corporate world, but in the church as well. And one of the things that we talked about together is that if we are to be a healthy church, we need to start with healthy leadership, and the corruption needs to be done away with in the life of the church.

And a large part of that comes back to accountability. We’re accountable to each other, and ultimately, of course, we’re accountable to Christ. And so, when you ask the question, what can we do to achieve this? Obviously, it starts with me. It starts with my own relationship with Christ. It’s my head, heart, and hands coming together.

But then I think it’s that accountability, and we put good structures of accountability in place. I think one of the great dangers is when we have one person making all the decisions alone and we put all the power in this one person. That of course in societies is what leads to a totalitarian dictatorship. But you can have the same thing in the church, and that’s why we need each other in this journey together.

[00:17:23] Cara: Thank you so much. I really think that what you’ve named is so important — doing it together in community. And, if we come back to even what we discussed in the previous episode, what are the things that we learn for from creation for God’s good purposes.

And he did make us in his image, and he’s a relational God. And so, I think that is really, really important. And especially when I think about our leaders, it can be tempting to do it alone, right?

Dennis. Yeah.

Cara: Because we’re meant to be leading. But as we grow and we pursue that, to do that with one another.

And the other thing that I wanted to highlight is that you said structures. And I think that’s really key too. And I want to encourage our listeners that it’s not just, while we’re willy-nilly accountable to one another, right?

Dennis: Yeah, exactly.

Cara: But how do we put structures in place? How are we thoughtful about that?

And for our listeners, one of the things that we also emphasize in GCI in terms of ministry practices is being team-based.

Dennis: Yeah.

Cara: And so, I really want to encourage you all who are building your teams, who are wanting to take this journey of growing in your healthy leadership and what that means for head, hands, and heart, what Christian ethics looks like as you lead, to do so in the context of your team, other people who have surrounded you and support you. Mentors is another thing that we really emphasize.

[00:18:55] Dennis: That’s great. I’m so glad to hear that, Cara, that’s so important.

[00:18:58] Cara: Yes. Yes, I think so too. So, I, I encourage you guys to continue to pursue this in relationship with one another.

Thank you so much for that final word, Dr. Hollinger, of, I think both encouragement and also, what’s the word that I want to look for, almost that invitation and challenge? Maybe I know I’ve said that a lot, but into how do we take our next steps together and grow in this aspect of our healthy leadership. So, thank you so much for sharing your insights with us again.

You guys stay tuned for episode three, where we’re going to be exploring Christian ethics and ministry practice, and some of those practical pieces of what it means to participate in ministry with Christian ethical posture. So, thank you so much. We are looking forward to hearing from you in the next episode. And until next time y’all keep on living and sharing the gospel.

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Thanks for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.