In Step with the Spirit w/ Gavin Henderson

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

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Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it brings me joy to welcome our guest, Gavin Henderson. Gavin is the superintendent of churches and pastors in Europe for Grace Communion International. He lives in Great Britain with his wife, Sinead, and their three children, Nova, Digby, and Brogan.

Gavin, thank you for being with us. Welcome to the podcast, and since this is your first time joining us, we’d love to know a little bit about you, your story, and how you’re participating with the Lord these days.

[00:01:17] Gavin: Thank you, Anthony. It’s a real joy to join you on the podcast here. I’ve been working for Grace Communion International for a while now in Europe. And it’s a real joy to work with a number of small groups and churches that have across region.

And it’s such a joy to wake up each day and to know that you can participate in ministry. That’s not to say that there aren’t challenges, but it’s a real joy to have that purpose and sense of direction in my life. And I’ve been a Christian for what seems like most of my life. But certainly, when I first felt the call to ministry quite a while ago now, it took me by surprise, and it’s such a joy to be involved in Christian ministry. And it’s a joy to be able to be a part of this podcast, so thanks, Anthony.

[00:02:10] Anthony: Oh, it’s my pleasure. I’m so glad you could join us.

And so, let’s do it. We’re here to talk about the scripture passages from the lectionary, and we have five pericopes this month.

Matthew 10:40-42, “Welcome Me”

Matthew 11:16-19, 25-30, “Real Rest”

Romans 8:1-1, “In Step With the Spirit”

Romans 8:12-25, “Adoption”

Romans 8:26-39, “God is For Us”

Hallelujah.

Let me read the first pericope of the month. It’s Matthew 10:40 – 42. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version.

It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 8 in Ordinary Time, which falls on July 2.

⁴⁰ “Whoever welcomes you welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. ⁴¹ Whoever welcomes a prophet in the name of a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person in the name of a righteous person will receive the reward of the righteous, ⁴² and whoever gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones in the name of a disciple—truly I tell you, none of these will lose their reward.”

Gavin, two words stand out to me in this passage: welcome and reward. They show up repeatedly, and I imagine it’s easy to reduce our teaching down “to do this, and you will receive that,” sort of a quid pro quo religion, right? What should we make of the relationality of these two words and actions?

[00:03:56] Gavin: Yeah, certainly when we read this passage of Scripture, those are two other words that really stand out. And it is easy to adopt that mindset or to take that approach when we’re seeking to preach on this passage of Scripture.

One of the things I would say, that welcome is, of course, a response. Whenever we think of welcome, it’s not that we’re initiating but rather we’re responding to something that has already happened. And in the case of the examples we see in this scripture, of course, you have the prophet who’s turning up. You have the righteous person who has arrived. And so, the welcoming there is a response.

But I think if you look at the context of this scripture as a whole, and preceding passage in Matthew 10, one of the things that really strikes you is that Jesus has been sending out his disciples. And so, this passage, when we understand it within the context of a sending out of the disciples is really encouragement for those of us who participate in sharing the good news. Because whenever we go out into the world to share the good news, I think it’s normal to have a fear about how people will receive us, how people will respond. And really what Jesus is saying in this passage is he’s encouraging us about how much God values our work and what we are doing in this.

It is really demonstrating the love that God has for his disciples. If you were to welcome a prophet, in the name of a prophet and you gave him welcome, then prophet’s reward is, he would share his insight. He would share what he came to say. Likewise, if a righteous person turns up and you welcome a righteous person, a righteous person will obviously respond positively to your welcome and you’ll receive a reward.

And so, the same is true when we go out to share the gospel message—that those who respond to the gospel message, God recognizes how they treat the disciples who go out and share the good news. And this is encouraging for us.

But I think this is really the kind focus of this passage and redefines how we think about welcome and reward. Because really this is encouraging us that when we go out and share the good news God blesses those who welcome the good news. We can take encouragement from that fact as we go out and share the gospel.

[00:06:42] Anthony: Yeah, I appreciate that perspective because it frames reward in terms of the here and now.

We talk about living in the inaugurated kingdom of God, the already, but not yet. And sometimes we can think of reward as the not yet. That’s something to come. But Jesus says that when we welcome someone, we welcome him. And isn’t that the reward in the here and now, that we experience something of Christ’s presence?

Jesus referred to little ones and I’ve heard a lot of sermons that sometimes make me a little cringed when I hear who those little ones actually are. What say you and what is a Christ-like response to Jesus’ words?

[00:07:25] Gavin: I think the word “little one,” certainly if you read in the commentaries, you can see a lot of debate about who is being referred to.

And I think in many ways, it’s referring to those who are sometimes held in the least estimation by society. I think sadly, sometimes it’s even talking about those held in the least estimation by the church. Sadly, even in the church, there are people who aren’t always valued in the way that they should.

And I think this passage challenges us in how we look at others and how we respond to others in their faith. It’s not a judgment on people’s faith. Quite the contrary. I think what it’s doing is it’s challenging us in how we respond to people—even the people that aren’t held in high estimation by others around them.

And one of the things that’s a kind of standout is I think—John Calvin, when he was speaking on this verse in his commentary, he talks about how if you actually think about what is said in this verse: whoever gives even a cup of cold water. Really a cup of cold water is the very kind of “meanest office of kindness”—that’s how Calvin refers to it—that you can offer to somebody. You’re not even boiling the water to make a cup of tea. You’re not cooking anything, really. You’re just giving them the very basics that they need.

But even if those very basics are given, God doesn’t forget even the smallest of kindness that are shown to what would seemingly be, by society and others, as the very least of his disciples. And so really this is, I think, quite encouraging for us because I think for many of us, when we engage, we don’t necessarily feel that we are these bastions of the faith that go out there.

Often, we find and have a personal view of ourselves that’s a lot more modest as Christians. And this verse is just encouraging us that God doesn’t overlook even the smallest of kindnesses that is done to those who are his disciples, those who choose to follow Jesus Christ.

I think there’s a number of challenges for us, a number of ways that it encourages us to have a Christ-like response to Jesus’ word, but really it makes us consider our views of other people, how we view them, and how we respond to them as well.

[00:10:11] Anthony: That’s well said. And I think one of the things that’s helped me as I reflect on this particular scripture through the years is to recognize that sometimes I’m the little one.

It is a joy to give the basics, as you said Calvin referred, to someone in need, but sometimes I’m the one in need. And I think that gives us a perspective of humility, even as we go out to serve others. Thank you for that.

Let’s move on to our next passage of the month. It’s Matthew 11:16 – 19 and 25 – 30. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 9 in Ordinary Time, which is July 9. Gavin, would you read it for us please?

[00:10:52] Gavin: Yes, sure.

¹⁹ “But to what will I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to one another, ¹⁷ ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not mourn.’ ¹⁸ “For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon’; ¹⁹ the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

At that time Jesus said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them to infants; ²⁶ yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. ²⁷ All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. ²⁸ “Come to me, all you who are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. ²⁹ Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. ³⁰ For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

[00:12:08] Anthony: Gavin, if you were preaching this pericope to your congregation, what would be your focus?

[00:12:15] Gavin: I think there are different sections of this passage that you can focus on, but there’s a section at the beginning that really resonates with me. And certainly, part of the reason it resonates is because I really like the language that’s used. But also, because initially, I struggled when I read this passage to understand exactly how it fitted in with the rest of the scriptures.

It’s in verse 17 when Jesus said, “We played the flute for you, and you did not dance. We wailed and you did not mourn.” This passage of scripture reminds me a lot of my experience with my children.

I have three children who are all under 10. And inevitably what happens is the children—they enjoy imaginative play. And so, all three of them are playing together, and then sooner or later one of them will get upset because the others aren’t letting them play the game that they want to play. So, whatever the imaginary game is at the time, one of them will come through and say, the other is not playing it right.

And this is really what is being talked about in this passage. And I think it really brings something of value that we can use when we’re preaching. Because for children often, we want to play the game that we want to play, and if others aren’t playing it the way we want we get upset with them.

We want to be in control. We want to have a say about what others do. And this is the context of what Jesus is saying that the children are sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another, “We played the flute, and you did not play along. You did not dance.”

And if we think of the larger context of what is being said here, Jesus is in a section where he’s been speaking about John the Baptist. And in verse 18 when he talks about how John the Baptist came and he didn’t eat, and he didn’t drink. And yet the response people said he was a demon. And then you have Jesus who comes, and he does eat, and he does drink, and they say he’s a glutton and a drunkard.

And it’s basically, I think a really valuable thing that we can learn about the expectations that we have when it comes to religion, when it comes to church, when it comes to so many of the things. These people came up with reasons and excuses about why they could disregard what John the Baptist said and what Jesus said, even though those reasons were contradictory. They wanted to be able to control the game, so to speak. They wanted to have control of the narrative.

And I think we can really reflect on this verse and think, how do we respond to the gospel message of Jesus Christ? Do we look for reasons to reject what Jesus says? Do we look for reasons when we read a verse, and think, ah, yes, brother, that verse, that section of that verse doesn’t apply to me because of this or because of that? Or do we instead come with hearts that really desire to take scripture and apply it to our lives?

Do we try and learn everything that we can from a passage of scripture and see how we can apply it in a practical sense to our lives even if—or even maybe particularly, if what is said in scripture perhaps causes us some difficulty? If we find it difficult, the words that Jesus is speaking to us, those are really the times I think when we need to pay the most attention. We can’t just try and define Christianity, the religion, that we want.

Instead, we always need to go back to what Jesus actually says. We need to be receptive to the gospel message as opposed to trying to define what the gospel message says and then get the Bible to fit in with what we believe.

[00:16:17] Anthony: You mentioned how we look at Scripture. Obviously, we’re coming to find out who God is revealed in Jesus Christ, but also, what is this saying to me? What’s the response in the power of the Spirit?

Thinking of that practical application right now, Gavin, there’s quite a few people in my life who feel weary, heavy. And Jesus said in this passage, come to me all you who are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. The world is weary, is it not?

And it seems like the world is crying out for real rest. Tell us about it.

[00:17:04] Gavin: Absolutely. I think as we look around society today both in the UK and the US, wherever you are in the world, I think life is difficult and I think many of us do feel that we are carrying burdens that are beyond us in many ways.

And this is such a beautiful passage of scripture because so many of us are crying out for rest. But I think one of the beautiful things that Jesus is saying in this passage is when it comes to our own lives so often it’s a struggle to do what we think is right.

We carry all these burdens that often we place upon us or others place on us. And what Jesus is saying is we can rely on him; we can trust in him.

I’m really into food. I enjoy cooking. I enjoy eating and I enjoy reading cookbooks and watching programs on cookery. And in some ways this verse reminds me of something that you find in high-end restaurants. So many high-end restaurants have what they call a test kitchen. And one of the beauties of a test kitchen is you can go out and there’s no pressure on you. But instead, there’s freedom to try without the fear of failure that is so common in society today.

If you work in a restaurant, the reality is you have to follow a recipe every day, and you have to make sure that the people who are eating get the very best of what you can do. But the reality is that’s very trying. It’s all this pressure and this burden on you to try and get everything right.

In a test kitchen, instead that pressure is removed. And instead, there’s freedom to try and create the best food that you can possibly create without the same fear of failure. And often you have the guidance of an experienced master chef who helps you to understand what you are doing.

And in some ways, this is what this verse really speaks to me about. That Jesus is saying that we can take away the pressure of trying to get everything right ourselves. But instead, what we can do is just bring everything to Jesus, and he takes the pressure from us. And we have the freedom to be the people that God designed us to be. And he is there, we are yoked to him. But he’s guiding us so that we can really respond to him and what he’s doing to be the very best of ourselves.

It is really taking away the pressure of trying to get everything right through our own strength. Instead, it’s relying on Jesus Christ’s strength and following where he is leading us. And in following where he’s leading us, we have true freedom. We’re able to really try and be righteous without the fear of failure, without that kind of restriction that is the reality that we face in this world. And I think this is a freedom that the world needs. But it’s also a rest.

It’s a rest from relying on our own righteousness, our own works, and instead trusting and relying on Jesus Christ.

[00:20:42] Anthony: Amen. One thing I didn’t expect to happen during that conversation was for me to get hungry. So, what time do I come over for dinner, Gavin, now that I know what your passion is? That’s good to know.

Let’s move on to our next passage of the month. It’s Romans 8:1-11. It’s a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 10 in Ordinary Time, which is July the 16th.

¹ Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. ² For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. ³ For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. ⁵ For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. ⁶ To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. ⁷ For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed, it cannot, ⁸ and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

⁹ But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. ¹⁰ But if Christ is in you, then the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. ¹¹ If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you.

If God the Father didn’t send Jesus into the world to condemn people, I’m guessing he’s not sending us as his ambassadors to condemn people. Tell us why “no condemnation” is ridiculously good news.

[00:22:49] Gavin: It really is, Anthony. It really is such ridiculously good news. And the reality of sin is that we would all be condemned. And so often we have a kind of narrow view of sin or misunderstand sin in many ways. Because sin isn’t just a problem that we have as individuals, but we live in a world that’s corrupted by sin.

And sin isn’t the problem, the full sense of the problem, in that when we try and live an ethical life, it’s not just the bad column we have, but we are called to do good works. And when we miss opportunities to do good works, then that creates a challenge for us as well.

But the whole concept of no condemnation is really moving to a completely different system, and it’s the system of grace. And it’s really this whole transformation in the way that we understand the world. It’s moving from looking where everything condemns us to life, to grace, to understanding that the world works in a different way.

And I think really to understand that it’s to understand who God is and how he can do this for us. Because so much of the way that the world works even today is an eye for an eye. This idea that when you make a mistake, you need to be punished, you need to be condemned for that mistake.

And part of the problem that we have as human beings is some of the mistakes we make, we just don’t have the power within us to restore. But of course, God does have the power to restore any mistake that we make. If somebody loses their eye, that’s beyond our power to do something about. But it’s not beyond God’s power.

God has the ability to restore things in a way that’s beyond what we can. And this is really how we move into that different system, that system of grace. And it’s why no condemnation is such good news, because it’s transformational to those who understand that they are not condemned.

And this is why, when you talked about this, Jesus isn’t sending us out into the world to condemn others because the reality is he’s taking us out of this system of condemnation completely. He’s moving us into this system of grace, and so we’re not sent out to condemn people.

Instead, we are sent out to show grace to people. It’s a completely different way of looking at life that we see. And this is what Paul was talking about in this passage. He’s talking about a different way of living that we have been given in Jesus Christ, how we now have the Spirit of life as opposed to the law of sin and death.

And of course, life comes from God. God is the one who gives us life. And this is why it’s such ridiculously good news, as you put it, no condemnation in Jesus Christ.

[00:26:17] Anthony: It is a different kind of system, isn’t it? We see in Father, Son, and Spirit, a restorative justice, not a retributive one.

And we do want people to pay, like you mentioned, and that even in the Psalms some of the cries to God is when are you going to smite these people that are after me? But thanks be to God that he does restore.

Help us to exegete verses 5-8. How do we rightly talk about living according to the Spirit? How do we know if we’re doing it?

[00:26:52] Gavin: As Christians we read passages like this in Romans 8, and obviously we want to be living according to the Spirit. And it can be sometimes challenging when we read Paul’s words, to understand how to put them in context in our lives.

And I think it’s important to understand a couple of things as we look through versus 5-9. As we look at these, this section of scripture, one of the things that I think we need to be clear on is Paul is not really contrasting the physical with the spiritual.

That’s not the contrast he’s talking about when he is talking about flesh. He’s talking about our sinful nature in many ways. It’s not saying that our physical bodies are the problem and that our spirit is not. That’s not the contrast, but rather it’s really reflecting how we choose to live our lives, what we choose to have as our focus and as our priorities.

And this is what he’s talking about when he’s encouraging us in this section and in many ways, I think, really what he’s describing in these verses is repentance. What he’s describing is a turning away from the ways of our previous life, the ways of our previous sinful nature, and a turning to God, to embracing what God is doing in our lives, what God is doing in the world, what we are choosing to focus upon.

There’s that beautiful hymn, “Turn your eyes upon Jesus, Look full in His wonderful face, And the things of earth will grow strangely dim, In the light of His glory and grace.”

And this is really what Paul is talking about here for us to no longer dwell on the previous things in our life. But instead to focus on the things of the Spirit, to set our minds on the things of the Spirit.

It’s important that we understand the now and not yet of this verse. Because sometimes as Christians we can struggle with that because both elements are clearly there. And Paul here is talking in this sense, we can’t take this as a now. The reality is that we do still struggle with sin. We still struggle with our sinful nature, and Paul isn’t ignoring the fact that we struggle with our sinful nature. But rather he’s encouraging us to also reflect on the not yet, reflect that there is going to be a time when sin is behind us.

And what we need to do now is to have this repentance, to have this turning towards God, turning towards the things of God, turning towards the things of the Spirit. And this is what he’s talking about in this passage. It’s repentance at its very heart.

When we talk about living according to the Spirit, it’s talking about a turning to God. It’s a talking about our priorities and choosing how we affect our priorities. And it’s really interesting that in the scientific world, there’s increasing evidence that what we choose to focus on actually affects the wiring of our brain itself. And here Paul in many ways was well ahead of the science, in this sense, in telling us that if we focus on the right things, if we focus on the work of the Spirit, then we will see the change that we want as Christians. We’ll see a life of repentance take place.

[00:30:47] Anthony: You made me think of a quote I read from Leslie Negan that we are shaped by what we attend to, and I think that’s what you were speaking to.

Let’s transition to the next passage, which is Romans 8:12-25. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 11 in Ordinary Time, which is July the 23rd.

Gavin, do us the honors, please.

[00:31:14] Gavin:

¹² So then, brothers and sisters, we are obligated, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— ¹³ for if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. ¹⁴ For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. ¹⁵ For you did not receive a Spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” ¹⁶ it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our Spirit that we are children of God, ¹⁷ and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if we in fact suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him. ¹⁸ I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us. ¹⁹ For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God, ²⁰ for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope ²¹ that the creation itself will be set free from its enslavement to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. ²² We know that the whole creation has been groaning together as it suffers together the pains of labor, ²³ and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. ²⁴ For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what one already sees? ²⁵ But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

[00:32:56] Anthony: The doctrine of justification gets quite a bit of attention in the commentaries on Romans and quite justifiably—pun intended. Hallelujah. Praise God that we are justified. But it seems to me little appears to be said about the doctrine of adoption. Why is our adoption as God’s children instrumental to our understanding of the gospel and our relationship with the triune God?

[00:33:25] Gavin: Thanks, Anthony. I think that’s a good point, and the way I like to view this is the doctrine of justification helps us understand what we are being saved from. But the doctrine of adoption helps us to understand what we are being saved for. Different sides of the same coin, so to speak.

But I think it is really important for us to understand that we have been saved for a purpose. And when we understand what that purpose is, it’s really exciting. And this is what the doctrine of adoption is about. And this is what Paul is talking about in this passage is that we are able to cry Abba Father because of what Jesus Christ has done.

It’s helpful to understand a little bit about the Roman system of adoption that was in place at the time of Paul’s writing because it can help us understand a little bit about the significance of adoption. Because in Roman culture, adoption was something that did take place and often it would be adults who would be adopted. It wasn’t normally children who were adopted, but rather adults.

So, you would have a wealthy person, or a person of power and they would adopt somebody to become their heirs. And often there would be some reason why that adoption was taking place. But this was a legal process that was recognized in the Roman world. Adults did become adopted and then become rightful heirs, in some cases, even above the blood family of the person involved.

And there were many famous examples of that. And while it was primarily men and adults, it wasn’t universally. So, there are cases of women being adopted and children being adopted as well. But it wasn’t adoption in the way that we often think of adoption in the modern sense, which is what we see in the world around us.

But I think one of the reasons it’s so significant here is, again, if we think of how this changes our relationship, but what is actually being said. When we understand the doctrine of adoption, when we understand what Paul is saying in this verse, is that we are children of God in Christ. We are heirs of God. We are joint heirs with Christ.

And when we understand who Jesus Christ is, that he is the Son of the Father, that he is the second person in the Trinity. It really is beyond our wildest imagination that we have been included in that relationship. We have been included in what Jesus Christ has in his relationship with the Father.

That we are his children to the point that we can cry out Abba Father. We can cry out to our Father in the most intimate terms. And when we do Paul describes that as the Holy Spirit in us bearing witness to the fact that we are children of God. And this is the purpose for which we were saved.

We weren’t just saved and then left to our own devices. No, we were saved so that we could be God’s children. We were saved so that we could be adopted and be coheirs with Christ. And that’s such a beautiful concept, but it also gives us this hope for the future when we understand that we haven’t just been saved from our sins.

As incredible as that fact is, in fact, God goes even further, and he includes us into his family. He makes us his children and that we are coheirs with Jesus Christ.

[00:37:57] Anthony: There’s a lot of groaning going on in this passage, Gavin. Help us to apprehend what Paul is writing for us in the latter half of the pericope.

[00:37:58] Gavin: There is quite a lot of groaning, and when you read through this, it is one of those words that stands out. I think verse 22 is a really helpful one for us to understand what Paul was talking about when he is talking about the groaning, because he says, we know that the whole of creation has been groaning together as it suffers together, the pains of labor.

And as we think about that, you think of a pregnant woman who is in incredible pain through much of the periods of labor, and they will be groaning and yelling out. But it’s a kind of preparation for what is to come and the joy of the child that is about to be born.

And I think it helps us to understand that what Paul is talking about in the groaning is there is a part of ourselves, there’s a part of creation all around us, that is longing for this time when sin will be no more, is longing for this time when everything will come to that fullness that has been promised to us in Jesus Christ.

I really think it’s talking about the longing that we have in us for a time when there will be no more sin, a time when we will have the new earth and the new heaven that Paul talks about elsewhere in Scripture. So, when he’s talking about the groaning in this passage it’s groaning in the sense of anticipation, but it’s also a recognition at this moment that the world that we live in is not the way that it should be. It is a world that is marred by pain, is marred by sin, but that the pain and the sin of this world is not the final word. Instead, it is something we are going through, the pain of labor we have as we look forward to that time when we will have the redemption of our bodies, as Paul puts it, while we wait for adoption.

So, it focuses us. Yes, we recognize the problems in the world around us, but it also clearly paints the picture of the hope that we have in the future. And that is the hope that we look for, that we wait for with patience.

[00:40:20] Anthony: Yeah, that’s a good word—that pain doesn’t get the final word. We know that Jesus Christ is the inerrant and infallible living Word of God, and he has the final word.

But it also gets me thinking, Gavin, how it would reframe pain that we experience on this side of the veil of heaven, to understand it as labor pain. That there is something more to come, new life that we will experience in its fullness.

Our final passage of the month is Romans 8:26 – 39. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 12 in Ordinary Time, which is July the 30.

²⁶ Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with groanings too deep for words. ²⁷ And God, who searches hearts, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. ²⁸ We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. ²⁹ For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. ³⁰ And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

³¹ What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us? ³² He who did not withhold his own Son but gave him up for all of us, how will he not with him also give us everything else? ³³ Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. ³⁴ Who is to condemn? It is Christ who died, or rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. ³⁵ Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will affliction or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword? ³⁶ As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep to be slaughtered.” ³⁷ No, in all these things we are more than victorious through him who loved us. ³⁸ For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, ³⁹ nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It’s probably unfair to only have a few moments, Gavin, to discuss this amazing passage. It’s a challenge to even know where to begin. So where would you like to begin, Gavin?

[00:43:21] Gavin: This is such a beautiful passage of Scripture. I mean, really this is. As you reflect on those words, you can almost get lost in them because this is Paul at his very best, I think, in this section in Scripture.

But if we go back to the start of our passage here, I think really what he’s saying is so encouraging for us as Christians, as disciples, as followers of Jesus Christ that we aren’t doing this alone. In everything that we do, God is with us. The Spirit helps us in our weakness.

And I think particularly for a lot of new believers this is a passage that is really helpful for them to understand that God isn’t asking them to rely on their own strength. And even when it comes to something which is as fundamental for Christians as praying, God helps us with our prayers. And sometimes for new believers, it can be really challenging when you are praying with other believers.

Some believers really have a gift for prayer, and when they pray, it is so uplifting and encouraging. And as a new believer, you can struggle because sometimes your prayer life is still developing. Sometimes you might even find it difficult to know where to begin in prayer. But what this verse is saying is just start.

Because the truth is the Spirit helps us. Often when we pray, our prayers are very selfish. They’re focused often on our immediate needs. And sometimes they go a little bit beyond that. But the reality is that every time we pray, the Holy Spirit is interceding with us and transforming our prayers as they’re presented to God.

And God knows our hearts. He knows the mind of the Spirit, and he knows what we need. And this is the God we worship. This is the God we praise. This is the God who loves us, that even when it comes to prayer, he is at work for us. He is helping us. And so, it means that we should never hesitate.

In our prayers we have nothing to fear about praying to God or that we make mistakes in our prayer, because inevitably we will sometimes say the wrong thing or sometimes, we don’t even know what to say. Sometimes we are confronted with difficult scenarios, and we don’t even know the right thing to pray for.

I’ve been [with] people who are very unwell and are at the point where it’s not clear what their future should be. What is the best thing for them at that stage in their life? And sometimes we just don’t even know what to pray in those circumstances. But the good news is the Holy Spirit is with us.

We don’t do anything by ourselves. God is with us. He is for us. And this is what this passage is saying.

Again, if we go back to that “now and not yet” concept, here God is saying his plans for us is more than we might think. He predestined every one of us to be conformed to the image of his Son. He predestined every one of us to be like Jesus and that’s an incredible thought! We can think in our own lives, how are we ever going to be remotely like Jesus? And yet here we’re told the Spirit helps us in our weakness, helps us to be conformed to the image of his Son, the image of Jesus Christ.

This is really encouraging news. And that’s certainly where I would begin on this passage because I think this is something that people new in the faith really need to hear and to understand that they do not engage in discipleship alone. God is with them at every stage through the process.

[00:47:46] Anthony: Yeah. I’ve often asked if the Holy Spirit is interceding on our behalf and Jesus is also interceding on our behalf at the right hand of the Father, which this passage points to, why bother to pray? If they are praying for us and they know the will of the Father.

But it’s relational, right? Just like with your own three children, Gavin, you probably have a pretty good idea of what their school life looks like, but you still want to know, to hear them talk about their experiences because it’s relational.

And I think that’s part of what conforms us to the image of the Son. In our time of just relating with God, in the Spirit, as they intercede on our behalf, that we come to know something of the mind of Christ, and we are formed by it. Hallelujah. Praise God.

I’m hard pressed to think of a better way to end our time together than worshiping the God who says nothing can separate us.

And I think he really means nothing, as he goes through this litany of list here from the apostle Paul. So, herald, this good news for us, Gavin.

[00:48:54] Gavin: Yeah, so this is just such a beautiful section of Scripture here—to think that there’s just nothing that can separate us from the love of God.

It’s such a powerful concept because the reality is that so often in our lives, we do feel separated. We do feel isolated from others. If you look around society today, loneliness is such a problem. People feel alone. People feel unloved. And you can see this throughout societies and in different cultures and different places around the world.

And yet the good news is nobody is unloved. God’s love for us is so much greater than we can imagine. His love was so great that he gave his own son Jesus Christ, so that all of us can have life, so that all of us can share in the inheritance that Jesus Christ has. This is the good news that we are called to.

The reality is that if we go through periods where we do feel separated, we need to return to this scripture. We need to remember the promise we have: there is nothing that can separate us from the love of Christ.

And then Paul goes on to really highlight that it’s absolutely nothing. Death itself cannot separate us from the love of God. So, nobody who has died is separated from the love of God. Nothing we can face in life can separate us from the love of God. There are no beings or powers out there that can separate us from God’s love. There’s no heights, no depth.

There’s nothing that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. And so really this should be our identity as Christians. This should be the foundation that we rest upon—that we are loved by God with the love that we as humans will spend the rest of our lives slowly beginning to understand more and more of.

I don’t think there’ll ever be a stage where we as human beings fully understand the fullness of God’s love. But we will spend the rest of our lives, the rest of our rest of eternity, learning more and more the love that God has for us, the love that has been displayed for us in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

[00:51:30] Anthony: Hallelujah. That is some really good news.

I want to thank you, Gavin, for joining us here on Gospel Reverb. It’s been a blessing to have this conversation around something we’re both passionate about, and that is the written word of our Lord.

And I want to remind our listeners, Christ has descended deeper than any abyss you might find yourself falling into. He has likewise ascended higher than all things, and now carries with him his humanity in the presence of our Father. Therefore, Paul can say, if God is for us who can be against us? Hallelujah.

I want to thank Reuel Enerio, our podcast producer, who does such a great job, and also Elizabeth Mullins, my wife. I like her exceptionally, and she also does the transcription.

Gavin, your words are going to be remembered for a long time to come. Thank you for them. As is our tradition here on the podcast, we like to end in prayer. Gavin, would you please pray for us?

[00:52:34] Gavin: Sure.

Heavenly Father, what a joy it is to be able to spend time in Scripture to reflect on the words that you have given us, Lord. Words that testify to your Son, Jesus Christ, that testified to what Jesus Christ has done for us. And as we have looked at these words, Lord, one of the things that is so striking is the love that you have for us. Father, words don’t begin to describe that love.

We find ourselves struggling at the very limits of language as we try and articulate how great the love that you have for us is, Lord. But Father, we praise you. We thank you for what you have done for us in Jesus Christ. And Father, I pray for everybody who’s listening to this podcast, that you’ll inspire them, that you’ll encourage them, that you’ll help them to hear your words to them.

Lord, as they listen to this podcast, that you’ll encourage them to go out and to reclaim the good news of Jesus Christ, the good news of what Jesus Christ has done for us, that he has saved us from our sins. We no longer have to try and work out our own salvation. We no longer have to try and work out our own righteousness, but instead we just rest and trust in Jesus.

And through Jesus, we have been saved for a purpose. And that purpose is life with you, Lord. And Father, we thank you for the hope that you have given us. We thank you that as difficult as this world may be, as difficult as the challenges that we face on a daily basis in our lives, that we know we have an eternal future that is secure in Jesus Christ.

Father, we ask that you help us to rest in that good news, to rest in that hope. And Father, let us turn our eyes squarely on your Son, Jesus Christ. Let us joyfully move towards him in every way that we possibly can.

Father, I just pray for everybody listening to this and I pray for your church. I pray for the body of Christ that you’ll encourage that. And we just pray for that time when you will return to this world in glory and the whole earth will finally understand who you are. Lord, that is our longing, that is what we hope for.

And so, we just give all praise to you, and I thank you for everybody involved in this podcast who has helped it happen as well, Lord. Just thank you, Lord. And I say this in Jesus Christ’s name. Amen.

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Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!

Missional Living w Charles Fleming

Welcome to the GC Podcast. A podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

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Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am blessed to interview Charles Fleming. Charles retired from GCI in 2019 after over 40 years of service, and during that time he served as a pastor in Jamaica, regional director for Latin American, Caribbean, and a mission developer for the Caribbean region. He’s particularly passionate about the health of the church mission and Spiritual formation.

These days he’s living in Orlando, Florida with his wife, Carmen. They have three adult children and two grandchildren, Addison and Luke. Charles, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s a privilege to have you on the podcast.

[00:01:05] Charles: Cara, thank you so much for having me. I feel very privileged that we can talk about mission, which in many ways is the heartbeat of the church because our Lord Jesus Christ was that first missionary who was sent from heaven. I’m just excited to be with you. Thank you for the opportunity.

[00:01:22] Cara: Absolutely. And amen. Already you’re starting to preach to us, so I say, why don’t we just go on ahead and dive on in. The first thing that I want to ask you, Charles, is what does mission mean for the church?

[00:01:39] Charles: Cara, that’s such a great question. But before we can really talk about what mission means for the church, I think we need to talk a little bit about what is mission. And my simple understanding of mission is what God does. And we get to participate in what God does. And so that’s it.

One of the things that I’ve been excited about is, as you read the literature, more and more people, like Ed Stetzer who works with very well known in evangelical circles, has mentioned that one of the big breakthroughs theologically is the recognition that mission is something that God does. That God is a missional God.

And some people even go so far as to say that they’ve added mission as one of the attributes of God. That familiar list of God is ever present. He’s all wise, all knowing. But in reading the biblical and studying the biblical record and just looking at the activity of the Church over the centuries, many people are now saying that mission is an attribute of God.

And when you think about it, Jesus was sent, and a missionary is someone who is sent. Jesus was sent by the Father, and he actually said as the Father, as he closed his ministry, getting ready to go to the cross, that ultimate sacrifice where he expressed the love of God. Mission is really the overflow of God’s love.

So, Jesus, coming from Father with the Spirit, was that overflow of love and the expression on the cross. But just before he died, he met in private with his disciples in that upper room of John 20. And he says, as the Father has sent me, so I am sending you. So that was like a private commissioning for the disciples, and when becoming now apostles, people who are sent. And then of course there’s the public anointing on Pentecost where the Spirit is given in a very public way.

But back in that private commissioning, Jesus literally breathed on them, says, my peace be upon you. And that word “breath” just evokes an image of the garden of Eden where God breathes a new reality, new entity into reality, humanity. He breathed into our parents, into Adam, the breath of life. And the astronomists tell us that we are stardust because the physical elements of us come from the universe, from the stars.

But when you think of Genesis, we are actually God breathed. We’re not just stardust, but we are God breathed. In that private commissioning, Jesus is creating something new, the church. And so, he breathes life into it. And that helps me to understand why he says his church will never die out because the very life breath of God is in the church. And the reason the church was raised up was to participate with Jesus in the ongoing mission, his ongoing mission.

Mission really explains the nature of and the purpose for the church. We are God’s representatives, his ambassadors, we are a royal priesthood. And I love that term from the Peter’s epistle where he talks about the royal priesthood, because the Bible’s a book that just evokes images.

And you go back to the Garden of Eden, and we see God’s story unfolding in the Garden of Eden. In the Garden of Eden, we see the intent, the original intent of God in creating humanity. He literally created a family when he created Adam. I don’t think it’s an accident that in Luke 3:38, when Luke is giving the genealogy of Jesus, he says, this person was the son of such and such, and that was a son of such and such. When he gets all the way back, he says, and Adam was the son of God.

Many years, I just thought of that as like a literary device, or oh yeah by creation. But when we look at Genesis 1 and 2, we see God fathering his created family, because what does a father do? He provides safety and security.

And what is the Garden of Eden? On a planet that’s teaming with potential but not developed, God places Adam, but not in the undeveloped wilderness. He carves out, he creates a garden. So, for the first time on the planet is what we would call, we humans call culture. There’s agriculture and horticulture.

God creates a safe place for his children. And then you get this picture of him pointing to trees and saying, these are for food. What does a parent do? He provides the physical needs of his children. So, he provides the physical needs, but also the psychological. God is keeping company with Adam.

And then God says these words. He says, it’s not good for this male to be alone. And so, he creates one like him, one equal with him, and declares the two, man and woman, image bearers. There’s an equality in scripture, so we see God’s heart. I’ve created a family that is capable of multiplying. I’m taking care of their physical needs, their safety needs. I’m taking care of their psychological needs.

And then he’s made us to have a needing for purpose and significance. He then says, you are my image bearers. You represent me. This is almost like a priestly role. I want you to view what I’m doing here in this garden. And for me, the Garden of Eden is like a model home.

It’s interesting, Cara, when I first moved in, Carmen and I moved into this house here in Orlando, we drove up from South Florida. And we saw all the beautiful models in the office. But I told the real estate agent, I want to see the property. And he says, you don’t want to go there; it’s just swamp and mosquitoes and trees. And I go, I want to.

At the time, I don’t know why I did it, but now I look back I got a picture of what Eden was like, because we went, and he was right. It was swamp, it was mosquitoes, it was trees. But then six months later we moved up, and there was a subdivision with infrastructure streets and electricity and water and a beautiful home, the home that we wanted.

And even in our fallen state, we are doing what God intended back in the garden where he said, multiply and fill the earth. I want you to do to the rest of the earth what I have done here. I’ve taken this section of the planet that’s teaming with potential, but I’ve developed it as a model to you of what I want you to do.

This was God’s dream. And we see that God had a bigger purpose. He was going to be mentoring Adam and Eve. He’s empowering Adam. He says you get to name the animals. That’s not just giving tasks or responsibilities, it’s giving authority because you are, to use the words from Genesis, you are to rule with and under me.

So, it’s a kingly role. A priestly role was God’s intent. And we read of a tree of life that—in a way I don’t understand—that God was going to allow them, if they made the right choice to somehow transition from mortal to immortal, to borrow Paul’s words. But we know that it was eternal life that was being offered if they made the right choice because he says once they sinned, I’m barring you from this tree because I don’t want you to live forever. Because he knew the kind of hell on earth we would create, and there was no way he was going to allow us to impose on ourselves an eternity of misery and allow us to contaminate the beauty that is heaven, his heavenly realm.

And when you read Genesis, and when I get to the end of chapter 2, if Genesis were a movie, we would cue the ominous music. And very often when I read the end of Genesis 2, I’m actually hearing the theme from Jaws [1975 US film about a shark]. Now that may not be a good representation, but I think you know what that sounds like from Jaws.

But we know what comes in Genesis 3; we call it the fall. And at that point we recognize from the rest of Scripture that the triune God—that sweet society as the Quakers call the Father, Son, and Spirit—they had a choice to make. They have chosen freely to create us, and out of the freedom of their love, they have created us, and they want us to love them back in freedom.

They’re not going to impose us. They’re not going to force us to love them. So, they’ve given us a choice. We can choose to let God be involved in our lives. And think of the beauty of that picture in Genesis 2; it says in the cool of the evening, God comes looking for them. But what do humans do in the cool of the evening?

It’s an evocative phrase. We sit back on the back porch in the evening when we have the time, and we commune with each other. God was not just task-oriented with Adam and Eve; he was enjoying them. God has created a family to enjoy them and enjoy him, the family to enjoy each other.

But also, to be involved in the family business because he’s sending Adam and Eve out to replenish this earth, to fill this earth with life, and to be the priests who would bring out the full potential of the planet to the glory of God, and also to bring joy to ourselves. So that’s the heart we see in Genesis. A God who says, I’ve created a family, and I want to invite them into the family business.

But of course, our parents went prodigal. And if this were a TV series, we would have to get the backstory at this point. And Genesis 1 gives us a glimpse into that backstory where there was a time before time, if I could put it that way, where the triune God had a conversation, let us make humans in our image and likeness.

And they made this decision. But once the fall happens, that prodigal move, we find that God says, we are not going to live through eternity without our beloved family. So now God goes into the phase of regathering the family.

And he sends Abraham to a new land to build a relationship with God. He raises up Israel to be in anticipation of redemption because they were to be a nation representing God’s ways. It literally says in Exodus 19, that they’re to be a kingdom of priests echoing Genesis. You’re going to be a kingdom of priests representing what life under my rule can be like.

And we know Israel failed, but ultimately Jesus was sent and he self-identified as one who is sent. He says, for this reason, I was sent to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God, the rule of God in our lives. This loving, generous, benevolent rule by our God who just loves us and wants us to be a part of the family and wants us to live on into eternity in doing the family business. Because in Revelation, it tells us that we then get to inherit all things, and we will reign with him.

I don’t know what that’s going to be like. I don’t speculate. I just know that if God says he wants us to be kings and priests with him, it goes all the way back to his original intent and it’s going to be good. I look forward to that.

I think you see if we think of God’s story and see God’s story in this way, we see a God who is sending and sent. And so, what does that mean for the church? It means that we exist as God’s called-out people to represent him, to be that royal kingly priesthood, as Peter puts it.

And therefore, we worship God—and I really appreciate in our church the way we’ve come up with these Love Avenues—but we worship God. We are building a family that is loving and enjoying each other. But we also understand that we exist not for ourselves, but to go forth, to be sent forth.

So that’d be my answer. What does the mission mean for the church? It helps us to understand the very nature and the purpose for the church. We’re not called up because we’re better or more special compared to others. We’re just privileged to join Jesus in his love, ongoing labor of love on this planet.

[00:14:33] Cara: Amen. Thank you, Charles. That is such a rich—just full of meaning and God’s story. It’s not just, mission is a thing that we think about or do, but it’s part of who God is and who we are purposed to be as the church. And I’m wondering because often we can think of mission as just something that we do maybe one time a year or one activity or maybe just something that we think about or intellectualize.

What do we risk when we do neglect missional rhythms that have depth and richness to them?

[00:15:16] Charles: Ah, Cara, we risk so much because first of all, we’re missing the fullness of who God is. And I love to tell that story because I think story rather than—there’s beauty in the traditional view of Creation, fall, redemption, new creation. You probably saw that as a structure behind the story I told. But rather than putting it in these sparse terms that are almost sound theologically out there, God has created us to be a storied people. We live out of stories that trigger our imagination.

Eden is not like Camelot. It is not some mythical, we think it might have happened, and we hope it happens again. It’s a reality that tells us the heart of God. And to answer your question, we are missing a piece of who God is.

He’s a Father who has created a family, and there is a Son who is that older brother that did not leave when our parents went prodigal, he stayed at home. But unlike the older brother in the parable, when he stayed at home, he totally identified with the Father. Because he is God like the Father. And when he did leave, like the youngest son, he came for a different reason. He came to rescue us. And so, we miss a dynamic of Jesus.

One of the things that has struck me is in Hebrews 3:1, we read that we get to partake in the very ministry of Jesus, and it’s described in two ways, the apostle and high priest. And we spend a lot of time on the high priest passage, which we need to, but we don’t really develop the apostle part, that Jesus is the original sent one.

There’s a whole dimension to Jesus that is missed if we neglect mission, that Jesus is the missionary. And then of course, we run the risk of just becoming a closed society, shutting ourselves off from the world, protecting ourselves. Or on the other hand, we become judgmental and look down on the rest of the world rather than seeing we’re a bunch of prodigals who have been privileged to know Christ and saved, and now we get to join Jesus in reaching out to our brother or our siblings who our prodigals still in the way we were.

I think that’s some of it, that our attitudes are malformed. Our hearts are also malformed if we miss the heart of God that is represented by mission and by Jesus as the missionary.

[00:17:50] Cara: Yeah. That’s really powerful because again, it comes back to, what is mission and it’s at the heart of who God is and who Jesus is as the sent one.

And that makes me think about another angle or experience of who we are as his followers. And what it means to experience and grow in who he is. When this podcast episode is released, it’s going to be, in the worship calendar, Ordinary Time. And it’s a time when we think about being discipled and being sent in disciple-making mission.

How are these missional rhythms that we’re talking about actually participating in this sent-ness that is at the heart of who God is? How is it connected with discipleship and being a disciple of Christ?

[00:18:54] Charles: What a great question, Cara. And you really put your finger right on it.

The whole concept of sent-ness, in other words, if it is true—and it certainly is—what Paul said in Relations 4:19, that until Christ is formed in us, if that is our quote unquote destination, in other words, that as Christ by his Spirit works in me and transforms me into his image, he’s discipling me, then I want to have an identity of being sent.

I would say three things in response to your question. There’s identity, there is a posture, and then there’s habits of mission. And let me explain what I mean. I think maybe I can tell it with a story. I read Michael Frost’s book on Surprise the World, The Habits of Highly Effective Missional People.

I read that about 5, 6 years ago. And I led a discipleship group and also had the opportunity to teach some of it to a congregation. And here’s the mistake I made. I went straight to the habits. Eat with people, bless people. And it never worked. None of us changed in any way. We got excited for three or four weeks and then, just like the dew before the rising sun, had evaporated.

And then about a year ago, Anthony Mullins, who is regional director for the Southeast. And I support Anthony in what he’s doing. He sent the book to me, and I’d forgotten about the book. And this time I read it all the way through. And at the end of it, Michael Frost says, these habits are intended to help us grow into an identity of sent-ness.

So, what I would say is I made a huge mistake. I just went straight for behavior. And we need to act from the very beginning. I’m not saying that. But unless we integrated into the idea that we are developing an identity of being sent, it will not last. And that’s where posture comes in. I see posture as an attitude, an orientation, out of becoming like Jesus and growing into sent-ness that we begin to have a posture that says, I want to get in out there and I want to share some of this wonderful news with others.

So missional rhythms, I think we have to do all three at the same time, but maybe at the beginning, stress that this is about affecting your identity.

And I’m teaching a class on missional living at GCS [Grace Communion Seminary] right now. And one of the things I’ve tried to help people to understand how we grow into the image of Christ is to say, let’s look at the “I am” statements in our lives. And there are a number, a cluster of “I am” statements that round out identity.

For example, you might say I am a woman. I would say I am a man. We’re beginning to identify ourselves. We might say, I am a citizen of the United States, and that’s our social location because it gives us a history, a sense of belonging, and it also gives us a sense of purpose.

And then we might talk about our profession, I’m a teacher, a truck driver, and we round it out And one of the challenges I’ve given the students is to say, do you include in your “I am” statements, and does it come from your heart: I am one sent? I am a fellow missionary with Jesus. There is an intentionality that says, when I take Michael Frost’s book and I start inviting people to eat with me, and I start seeking to bless people who maybe are not Christians, am I at the same time saying, Lord, help me?

So that it becomes, I lean into this, the posture of my heart is I want to be with Jesus as he ministers to people that I happen to meet and maybe I get to participate. Am I? And so, I’m trying to use the “I am” statements to add to that cluster, rounding out my identity. I am once sent.

So, I’m trying to use that language as a way of helping me and reinforcing what the action is doing. And then when you are out there sharing with people, Jesus becomes very evident. You see the way he works; you say something that you thought was a casual comment, and a few weeks later, somebody says that really helped me. And you [think], how do you remember me saying that? Must have been the Spirit.

To me, one of the rhythms for growing interpersonally is that we recognize the need for action. We need to go into action. We need to be involved in the Love Avenue, but we also need a posture, which is like Spiritual formation.

We need to be part of the Faith Avenue where we are living life on life with members of the family. But we’re looking for ways to invite people who are not yet aware of their membership in the family to join us. But at the same time, in our devotions and in our conversations, we’re saying, Lord, I am just grateful to be one sent. Can you help me to change my perspective of not understanding that I can?

It becomes natural, and obviously this will take time. You don’t take on something at a deep identity level overnight. But there’s some intentionality and a systematic approach, so that’s how I’m trying to approach that.

[00:24:10] Cara: Yes. And you know what I really like about how you’ve just talked about this—discipleship is about transformation. And it’s not just that behavior modification. So, if being sent, if in ordinary time, we’re thinking about who are we as disciples and who are we as being sent in disciple-making mission, it does come down to that identity. And is this coming out of growing in our identity in Christ or is it just something we think that we’re supposed to do to check something off a list? And you mentioned earlier too that part of the heart of mission is: what is God doing?

When it flows from identity, I’m sure that it would keep us more Christ-centered in that way, because it’s not about, I did this missional thing. But when it comes from our identity in Christ, it’s, oh, this is what God was up to. And I just had the privilege to participate, to come alongside.

Yeah, that’s excellent. That’s excellent. Yes. You did mention the Avenues as well. I think that it’s really important to think about how we practice the missional rhythms together as a church community. Because as you said, mission is the purpose of the church.

So, if mission is foundational to why the church exists and missional rhythms aren’t just an activity to do, but part of the heart of God and who he’s making us to be as his sent people, then they’re not just activities that are secluded to the Love Avenue. Missional rhythms show up across all aspects of ministry, all aspects of being the church.

I’m wondering what are some examples of what this can look like? Because the Love Avenue is where we do concentrate and give focused attention to missional rhythms. But what does it look like to pay attention to missional rhythms across all Avenues of ministry?

[00:26:30] Charles: I like that question. Before I answer it, could I just hit one thing in terms of growing into this image of sent-ness?

We need to recognize that the church does not have a mission, but rather God has a mission, and the church is the instrument of that mission. So, it’s more accurate to say God’s mission has a church. This is the expression in our world. In the way Israel was supposed to be a presence of God, of what a kingdom looks like, we as individuals and as a corporate body are God’s representatives. We are the only institution that Jesus says, I sign off on this. It’ll never die out because it is that important to God.

I put alongside the “I am” clusters, this idea that we need to allow the Spirit of God to help us to move from saying mission is optional; some people are missional, and some are not. No, every Christian should have an identity of being sent, which brings me back now to, to your question.

When I look at the three Avenues, I just thank God for it because having been involved with the transformation of our church from back when it began in 1995, as I recall, God has done a remarkable transformation of the cultural life of what was WCG and is now GCI.

We have come to know God, the who question, who is God has transformed us. We know God in a different way, and because of that, we know ourselves in a different way. And we see other people in a different way. And one of the things that has struck me with the students that are in the missional living class is just the energy and eagerness to go out on the Love Avenue.

To the question, how do we do it? Because we’re committed. That’s the posture, the leaning forward that I see in the 12 students. Which tells me that the idea to come up with these three Avenues is Holy Spirit saying, we now need a way to focus and channel this energy that has been building up in us because of the incredible transformation of our culture.

So, we now have a structure, and I love the name Avenues because what happens in avenues? Things flow. When I look at them, my first thought is every one of us wants to be an expression of, and a representative of the Hope Avenue because we all respond to our God with worship. So, we want our church to have a very good, solid leadership, Love Avenue group that is leading us. But all of us want to learn to better worship God. So that everybody, that’s for everybody.

The Faith Avenue is where we do life on life and really and truly a high priority. In my mind for us, really is to begin to foster and cultivate connect groups because they are a way of putting some structure within churches.

But everybody, even people involved in the Love Avenue need the Faith Avenue, and then I’m back to sent-ness. Everybody needs to be sent.

So, when you talk about rhythms, when I look at where we are as a denomination, even though mission is my passion, here’s the advice I would give to pastors and leadership teams, whether it’s a congregation or a fellowship group: I would say you’ve probably got your Hope Avenue. Chances are most groups have their Hope Avenue pretty well developed because we’ve spent most of our human resources, our energy, and our time in our worship services. We’re not where we need to be yet, but the RCL has just breathed a life into our congregations.

If I were a pastor, I would say in terms of rhythms, I would disconnect myself a bit. If I’ve been preaching four times a month, I would cut back to three. If I’ve been doing three, I’d cut back to two and empower some others to step up to free up time for me to put more focus on [the Faith Avenue]. And then we’re doing all three.

But it’s a matter of energy and time and effort. And put more effort into—and even though I’m missional—I would put it into the Faith Avenue, and little less energy into Love Avenue. Why? Because mission is an overflow of God’s love. We want to make sure that we as a people are being so infused with the worship, the learning to worship God in the Hope Avenue. We also want to be strengthened by the incredible disciple-making that happens in the Faith Avenue.

If I could just use throw out some random numbers just to make a point. If you have a 100% of energy that you can give to the church, because you’re a bivocational pastor, you’re a bivocational leadership team, you’ve got your family, you’ve got your own self-care, your own personal growth, as well as the job.

So, you have a certain number of hours a week to give to the church. I would say, okay, I would do enough to keep the Hope Avenue growing and developing, but most of my energy would go to Faith. But I’d also develop a few things on the Love Avenue at this stage in our history where we are. Because the stronger we are with Hope and Faith, the more effective we’re going to be in Love. And I’m not saying we don’t do any of the Love Avenue stuff! That would break my heart because it’s my passion.

But I’m thinking of two things that Jesus said in John 15:8. He says the Father is glorified with much fruit, but then in verse 60, he says, but the Father wants lasting fruit.

And one of the things I’ve learned from mistakes like with the Frost book, you want the fruits, or you jump in and just do the habits. But you’ve not laid the groundwork of the deep preparation, then it doesn’t last. And just thinking of where we are, to answer your question, if I were a leader of a fellowship group or a congregation, that’s some of the thought process I would have.

It’s a discernment not done in isolation. I would include my leadership team. I would even have town hall meetings to get a sense of what are the energy levels. There’s three things I think of in a congregation: what are the energy levels that people have? What is the critical mass? And what time do they have?

Have a town hall meeting and say, we want each of us to be people who are competent in the Hope, the Faith, and the Love. But how much energy do we have and how do we deploy ourselves in a way that we can grow? And from my perspective, and again, I want to stress, I’m a missional guy. But I think we need to add to what the strengths of our Hope Avenue are. Again, because I’m into sustainable growth, I would say for 18 months, I, as a pastor, want to put a lot of energy into the Faith Avenue. Get that really strong.

And we do some missional things along the way because there’s a lot of growth that comes from the doing—not neglecting that. But then once we’ve brought the Faith Avenue to a certain point of strength, then we really put some energy into Hope. And I think what will happen is leaders of congregations and fellowship groups, if you do that, I think you’re going to experience what I experience in this missional living class.

I have just been blown away on the level of inspiration by people who have come in with that posture. They’re leaning forward and they’re just saying show me how, show me how. That’s my take on it one, one person’s perspective.

[00:34:12] Cara: Yes. And as you were talking about even that preparedness, it made me think about if mission is at the heart of who God is and if mission is central to why the church even exists, and as part of who we’re being formed into as disciples as a sent people then, of course, discipleship Faith Avenue is part of the foundation of being sent. And I think about, even if you look at Jesus’s earthly ministry, he didn’t just pluck up the disciples and then be like, okay, now you’re sent.

But he spent that time with them. That would be akin to, in our structure, in our point in time, in history and GCI, of a connect group or something like that within the Faith Avenue. Because we do grow in time and transformation to know who God is. And to know our own identity before we have that overflow in being a sent people.

And like you said, that’s where we get that fruit that lasts, not the, oh, we’re so excited, but then two months later, we’re back to the same old, same old.

[00:35:40] Charles: Cara, could I add something? In other words, on behalf of the Love Avenue, I would say we also want to help people to recognize—and the phrase I use is—mission is done at the pace of life. I think sometimes we get intimidated, oh, we’ve got to do this, that, and the other. And again, all I have to offer is “x,” is most of us, what we experience.

Let me share my experience of how I view mission. As you mentioned, I was a mission developer, which meant that I was traveling to something like 20+ countries, helping our congregations and encouraging growth, et cetera. I’ve had a very wide public ministry where I was on mission with the Lord. Now that I’m retired, here’s what my primary mission is—and it is maybe in some ways even more fulfilling, and I think just as significant as whatever I did when I was full-time in public ministry— I now have two grandkids.

And my daughter, Annmarie, Michelle’s younger sister, lives near to us. When Addison was born, (she’s now six) we spent the first two or three years having Addison Monday to Friday, all day. And I remember how tired Carmen and I would get. We just marveled, and we’d look back and go, when we were in our 30s and 40s, we had jobs and we raised three kids, and now this one baby.

And I remember one night Carmen and I were lying in bed, and she just said, Charles, I love these kids, but I really am so exhausted, and so was I. And I had been reading in Luke 10 where Jesus sends the disciples out, part of his mentoring them to go on mission. And he says, wherever you go, tell people that the kingdom of God has been here.

And I think it was a Holy Spirit moment. I just put my hand on her, and she was laying in the bed next to me and I said, Carmen, kingdom work was done here today. And I just heard her breath out, and she says, that means it soul significant.

Because what’s behind my thought is—I’ve read upon attachment theory that all of us need to be solidly attached to our primary caregivers, especially in the first four years of life. And if that’s not there, then we end up with a lot of the insecurities that we have. And so, I’ve seen my role as, how can Carmen and I help Annie and Mike so that they’re not always exhausted, and therefore maybe cranky with their kids, so that they can have that attachment be positive.

So, we’ve invested. What I’m trying to say is that sent-ness includes going out, but sent-ness is also just doing the things at the pace of life. Are you a grandparent? Maybe you’re teaching your kids to bake. You tell them stuff like, do you know that in Jesus’ day, chances are his mom did the baking and you see the way you are scraping the bowl and eating the raw dough that I left, Jesus probably did that. You’re talking about the incarnation, but you’re bringing it into their lives.

That is some of the teaching I would do. If you go back to the scenario sketch, we’re not as emphasizing Love Avenue fully yet; the focus is on the faith. But it is that kind of perspective I would share with people, that you can be on mission. Talk about place-sharing, I’m place-sharing with my grandkids.

So now I “baby shark, baby shark” is like a hook in my ear. I’m aware of pirates and stuff in the cartoons. I got a repertoire of songs and of cartoons that are now part of my imagination because in sharing time with my grandkids, I’m connecting with them.

I’m on mission in my living room. And so, mission is at the pace of life. And I think if we can help people to see that this first steps to mission are not some giant, we got to go some far place. No, it starts in the home. Things that are ordinary to any grandparent can be made missional.

If we just find ways to just bring it back to Jesus, bring it back to the principles and teachings of the Bible. And I guess if I were to ask people to remember two things from this conversation, mission is what God is doing and we’re privileged to participate with him, and mission is done at the pace of life.

Can I look again at my life and see that maybe I’ve been more missional than I thought, but maybe I can make it even more by being intentional, just doing some of the stuff I do. But we don’t stop there. There’s not an excuse to not go out. It is just recognizing the fullness of what mission is.

But we certainly want to go out. And I would want to stress that we—even in that early 18 months that I sketched in this scenario—we want to do some things together going out, and individually going out. And then when we’ve got our Faith Avenues up to where we think it needs to be, we see that overflow, then we really go full-fledged.

Again, there are many ways to approach that, but that’s just one person’s perspective.

[00:40:53] Cara: And the beauty of this example that you’ve given, Charles, I think is there’s a holistic, kind of whole life encompassing-ness to mission. That’s part of what I meant by how do our missional rhythms, our being sent, extend beyond the Love Avenue?

It’s not just an activity or a program or a checklist or a calendar that’s confined to the activities of the Love Avenue ministries. It’s about our whole lives as they’re shaped by God. And this example that you’ve given with your grandchildren, I think is a beautiful example of what that looks like.

And then as we lean into and are transformed into being God-sent people, then corporately together as a church, we bring in that intentionality, right? And then we lean into and grow our Love Avenues and in specific ways, but it does come out of that overflow of who we are and who God has made us to be.

And your example even brings up for me this question that, when we think about rhythms and this year we’re talking a lot about healthy church rhythms, but when you look at nature, rhythms aren’t stagnant or very calculated. They’re often dynamic.

And when we think of specifically about missional rhythms and mission being what God is doing, God is a dynamic God. And I would think that missional rhythms, what mission looks like, can change from season to season. Maybe in some season, it looks like your public missional ministry, and in some season, it looks like baking with your granddaughter.

I wonder what would you say the discernment process can look like to discern what mission looks like in a particular season of life?

[00:43:09] Charles: I think the example I gave would be suggestive for individuals. That you look at where you are, what energy you have, what are the opportunities you have, and you adjust to the needs around you.

But thinking in terms of a congregation or a fellowship group, the discernment process to me is some kind of a town hall meeting, some kind of casual, informal conversations with people in your group, in the fellowship group or a congregation. Let’s talk about your margins. How much time do you have?

And even, how can you create more space in your schedule for something more missional. So, we’re allowing people to speak because somebody with small kids has different opportunities because of different priorities than somebody who might be an empty-nester. And so being in tune with where people in the congregation are and helping them to see how they can do mission at the pace of their life, where they’re at, is one level of discernment.

But then based on that, you step back, you zoom out and say, okay, let’s look at the aggregate of the congregation. We’ve got an older group, or we’ve got a younger group, we’ve got a mixed group. How can we now look at the needs of the community outside of us? And with our energy levels, the time that we have available, and our particular gifting, what are we going to do as we reach out? Are we going to maybe go to a fair held in our city? Are we going to have a Vacation Bible School? What can we do that would match a need in the community? You’re scanning the community and its needs, but you’re also very in tune with where the congregation is.

And then you develop rhythms that again, come back to what is not taking people too far out of their pace of life. Hopefully the love of Christ to be with him would allow them to adjust the pace of other areas of their lives and make space for more of this.

Those are some of the thoughts that I have on that.

[00:45:25] Cara: Yeah, that’s helpful. That’s really helpful.

[00:45:29] Charles: I guess what I would say is let’s not try to copy some other congregation. Let’s say, these are the people that Jesus has given me to serve, and here we are at this stage of our lives. A group that I’m very sensitive to because when I was working, we had to deal with some churches that became fellowship groups and then became very small.

I didn’t have the beauty of the Love, Faith and Hope Avenues. But when I look back, I realize that the Spirit allowed me to give some advice to some pastors. And the basic way I’d summarize it is if we are getting to a point where we have an elderly group, and they’re just down to maybe five or six people, I’ve seen groups that resisted the thought that maybe they needed to close, and it was very painful when they closed.

And I’ve also seen groups where in the past, the leader of the group said, how can I prepare people for the time if God allows us, because it’s his church, this particular expression, this particular congregation that’s now a fellowship group, to cease to exist. How can I prepare them for after? And one situation I remember was, there was one situation where there was an elderly lady at a nursing home who people would come to for advice. But their thought was, how can we maybe even spend a few dollars and give her money to buy some song books or some bibles so she can now—she’s already said people are coming to her.

She’s living that sent-ness of people around her in the nursing home are asking her for advice. She’s already got the makings of a Faith Avenue, in a sense, or at least the essence of the Faith Avenue and the essence of being sent. How can we now equip her, maybe there could be a little bit of the Hope Avenue that people maybe could sing together, buy an instrument if somebody could play.

So, there’s that thought process that here we are at a stage in life. We are elderly, we don’t have a lot of energy. Our group has, for whatever reasons, young people have moved out of the area or whatever. Our church is no longer viable, and we see that we may need to close the doors.

How can we equip and empower people to have the essence of Hope, Faith, and Love Avenues? So again, it’s back to your question. How do we deal with the dynamic fact that, that life is dynamic, and we only have so much energy, so much time, and the needs around us. How can we match those up based on where we are?

And so that’s, to me, a hopeful way of even viewing the fact that some of our fellowship groups are very small. Instead of petering out, we could say, Lord, we’re going to do all we can do for growth. But if you allow this to come to an end, we want to be able, wherever we go, to bring elements of worship, of fellowship, and of sent-ness, wherever we go.

It’s like we become an individual that represents what is behind these Avenues.

[00:48:41] Cara: Yes. And I appreciate what you said about it’s not just copy, I call it the copy and paste, right? You don’t just do what another church is doing because that’s not discerning what God is doing in your midst.

But to do that together as a community, whatever stage he has you in, whether it is a smaller aging group or a young growing group or something in between. What is God doing in your midst and how can you participate in that? That’s excellent.

And so, we are coming up towards the end of our time. I have a final question for you today. And it’s no small question. I’m wondering for those of us who are listening, what are some ways that we can get started developing missional rhythms of being God-sent people?

[00:49:30] Charles: I would say that I would have a couple of questions in mind as I travel through life. I would say, Jesus, what are you doing in this room as I enter it, can you show me? And could you let me know if you’re inviting me into it? Because some things are for us, and some are not.

And I got these questions from Henry Blackaby back in the 2000s, his book Experiencing God. I actually wrote them on a little 2×5 card. This is before cell phones. We’d probably put them in there now. But I would put them in my pocket. And called the use of the little 2×5 cards was like my training wheels. If I wanted to build a new habit, I would it jot down and pull them out, and I found that really helpful.

Jesus, what are you doing in this place right now here at work in the middle of maybe a conflict? What are you doing here? How can I participate in this in a way that you’d want me to? Or we are doing some blue skying, or we’re just at a coffee shop, what are you doing here?

And it’s not to preach. It’s to enter into a conversation and bring some comfort to people or maybe to enter into a conversation and enjoy people. Because remember, God’s heart revealed in Genesis is he wants people who just enjoy life together. And then join him in the family business. So, sometimes just putting people at ease might be all that is asked for.

For me, that has been ground zero of the beginning of this journey for me. Those two questions that I got from Henry Blackaby I would suggest that.

Then thirdly, I would say a willingness to do a sensitivity to the Spirit and a willingness to do something that you normally wouldn’t do. And that to me is a challenge. Am I willing to do that? Because very often, you find that when you do push through it—I don’t really want to do that, but you do it. Suddenly you see the glory of God.

To me, I am struck by Jesus in John 2, where a couple get married, and the wine runs out and Jesus turns water into wine. And what struck me, more than just defying physics, was the fact that in the scheme of things, running out of wine is an insignificant thing in the general scheme of life. But what I learned from that is for Jesus, if it’s significant to us, it’s significant to him. And I’ve tried to keep that in mind. Because he taught me a lesson. One day, I was reading it, and I go, if you’re not organized, in my mind I go, if you’re not organized enough to organize your own wedding, you don’t deserve a good wedding.

And the Holy Spirit nailed me for that. He says, you have a gift of organization, but don’t judge people by that. And so, the takeaway for me is, okay I’ve asked the question, what’s Jesus doing and how can I join him? What’s Jesus doing and how can I join him?

And okay, this is inconvenient, or it’s not my cup of tea. Do it, Charles. It’s what I try to tell myself because if it’s significant to us, Jesus would see it as significant. So those are three things I would suggest on a personal level.

[00:52:58] Cara: That is absolutely insightful. Particularly for me, what sticks out to me is that willingness to follow the lead of the Spirit, even if it’s not something you would normally do or want to do or be inclined to do. Because again, as we’re defining mission as what God is doing, it’s what God is doing, not what Cara wants to do in that moment.

So sometimes what it means is to do something that Cara wouldn’t do in that moment or wouldn’t want to do. Yeah. That’s excellent.

[00:53:35] Charles: Yep. That’s what it is.

[00:53:39] Cara: And challenging. But that’s excellent even on a practical level to think about in the real life sometimes taking that step mission means doing something I wouldn’t really want to do on my own.

That’s good.

[00:53:53] Charles: And the other lesson I’ve got is you cannot let the gifts that God gives you overly-shape your life because then you become judgmental or prideful or whatever.

[00:54:06] Cara:  Yeah, that’s a good word. Charles, I appreciate your time so much. This has been an incredibly rich conversation about mission, and I know that we are really just scratching the surface here. I thank you so much for sharing your insights and your experiences with us today, and I pray for our listeners that this helps us to follow God’s leading to grow as his sent people.

But before I let you go today, I’ve got some fun questions for you. You can answer first thing that comes to mind, and we’re just going to have a little bit of fun with it.

You ready for this part of our episode today? All right. This one I think is going to be especially fun for you. What is your favorite book genre?

[00:55:00] Charles: Book genre. I love fantasy novels. The type of fantasy that is either space, like sci-fi, or even historical novels with dragons and stuff.

[00:55:11] Cara: Ah, yeah. I like that. What is your favorite meal to cook?

[00:55:19] Charles: Oh, I don’t do a lot of cooking, but I certainly like to do a barbecue chicken. Another one I like is an almond-crusted chicken. And you can tell chicken is my favorite.

[00:55:29] Cara: Yes. That sounds really good though.

Okay. If you have an unlimited supply of one thing, if you could have an unlimited supply of one thing for the rest of your life, what would it be?

[00:55:43] Charles: Unlimited supply. Probably books.

[00:55:46] Cara: Ah, yes. I’m with you on that one. I’m with you there. If you could live anywhere in the world for one year, where would it be?

[00:55:56] Charles: Oh, I would love to live in Europe and just go on those river cruises and just visit all the historical sites.

[00:56:02] Cara: Oh, yes. That sounds wonderful. All right. If you, Charles, had your own late night talk show, who would you invite as your first guest?

[00:56:12] Charles: Probably Michael Jordan.

[00:56:15] Cara: Oh, fun. Okay. All right. What is your favorite activity to do with the grandkids?

[00:56:24] Charles: Oh, man. We have a slack line around the back, and they’re very athletic, so to see them turning into little monkeys climbing and falling. I just love that.

[00:56:33] Cara: That’s so fun. Oh, that’s excellent. All right, and last question. If you have to sing karaoke, what song do you pick?

[00:56:42] Charles: Lord have mercy on the people listening to me. I do not have a singing voice.

[00:56:50] Cara: So, you don’t sing karaoke? That’s the song that you pick.

[00:56:55] Charles: When I went to Jamaica, starting the church, I had to do everything. I had to lead worship songs, and I basically told the PA crew, as soon as I announced the number, just turn off the mic. [PA is the abbreviation for public address, meaning amplified sound system.]

[00:57:08] Cara: Let the people take it. Oh, that’s too funny.

Oh, thank you so much for joining us today, Charles. It’s been a good time. It is our practice with the GC Podcast to end our show with prayer. Would you be willing to pray for our churches, our pastors, and ministry leaders in GCI?

[00:57:32] Charles: Yes, indeed. It would be my pleasure.

Father, we just want to thank you that above all, we see that you are Fathering us. Thank you for being our Father. Jesus, thank you for being that older brother. And I never forget the words that you said to Mary after your resurrection, before your ascension, go and tell the brothers. I go to my God and your God. I go to my Father and your Father. You’re the sibling that is regathering the family, bringing all of us prodigals back into the fold. Thank you for that, Jesus.

Holy Spirit, we thank you that you are the one who has been sent forth, and you live in the likes of us. And even though we grieve you, you never leave us. You never forsake us. You equip us. You love on us. You constantly remind us that we are the children of God. Thank you, Father, Son, and Spirit.

I want to pray, Father, that your continued blessing will just pour out upon us in GCI. That indeed, you would increase our capacity to receive and to appreciate and to live out of the fact that the love of God, your love, has already been shared abroad. It’s flowing into our hearts. Give us the grace to access that love more fully, to get into the flow that we can be people who, in the way we live, each of us represent the essence of the Hope, Faith, and Love Avenues, the worship, the fellowship of loving like family and also the loving by going out.

May that become more and more reality. May you bless us in all of that, Lord, and may we always remember that mission is what you do, and you’ve asked us to participate in mission at the pace of our lives, lives that have been reoriented because we know the nature and the purpose for which we’ve been called as a church.

So we adjust the way we live and make a priority of worshiping you, of enjoying each other as family members, and of reaching out with your love, to invite others to accept your reign in their lives, your loving reign, that they too can be translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. May we see many people brought to you, Jesus, as you continue to seek and save the lost.

We thank you and praise you. We ask a blessing on Cara and on Reuel as he does the technical part of this podcast. May this podcast be used to bless many people and the ones who listen to it, go forth to bear much fruit, lasting fruit.

And we pray this Father in the precious and powerful name of Jesus. Amen.

[01:00:21] Cara: Amen. Thank you so much, Charles, and until next time folks, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

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We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.